Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
ALL vehicles suffer in the cold. And that temperature range is for the EPA tests, not anything even remotely related to actual design.
Unfortunately, another short-coming of the EPA tests is the fact that the average highway speed they drive at is only 48 MPH, with a brief maximum up to 60 MPH. People obviously drive much faster, which means they'll get lower MPG than the test results. Bummer, eh?
The real problem is the fact that people don't have a Multi-Display in their current vehicle to inform then how crappy their winter MPG is. Oh well.
JOHN
This car requires an unusually high Load Index. The Load Index need is 88. Most 185/65-15 tires only have a Load Index of 86. See more on Load Index at:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/speed.htm
This is why you can't buy tires for the Pruis via Tire Rack!!!
http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/06/pf/autos/detroit_gm_hybrids/index- .htm
This car requires an unusually high Load Index. The Load Index need is 88. Most 185/65-15 tires only have a Load Index of 86. See more on Load Index at:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/speed.htm
This is why you can't buy tires for the Pruis via Tire Rack!!!
Mike
Switching to 185/65/14 eliminated the need for XL-rated. Increased PSI to 42 PSI eliminated the need for XL-rated too.
So the fact that the 2004 Prius (which is only 125 pounds more) uses Goodyear Integrity 185/165/15 clearly supports there is no need for special heavy load tires, even at the standard PSI.
The switch from Bridgestone to Goodyear was provide harder rubber. Those original tires wore out very, very fast because they were so soft you could actually leave marks on the road just from making a tight turn. That's a treadwear rating of only 160. The new tires have a treadwear rating of 460, which is a huge improvement.
By the way, that's another "amazing coincidence" for Toyota. They just happened to choose the same type of Goodyear rubber for the 2004 that I bought and promoted as an alternate for the classic...
JOHN
Minnesota like coditions; 20 degrees, 6" of snow on the road, etc. I drove the '04 around just fine! The traction control did it's thing and I didn't hesitate plowing through untracked conditions. The only reason to let it idle was for windshield thawing. It is still amazing to get >37mpg in a mid-size 3000lb. sedan! How can someone complain about and base a buying decision on that (poor performance!)? Incidentally, I run 39/37 in the tires and changed the oil at 1500 miles with Castrol dino 5x30 weight. I'm fine with these compromises for ride & economy respectively. Looking forward to 'optimal' conditions next spring to see what she'll do w/o the need for heat. Typical 6 mile commutes and shopping trips produce 42mpg avg. over 5 tanks of +/- 8 gallon fill ups. Sounds on par to me.
When the engine is cold it uses a 5th fuel injector called a cold start valve, and also raises the idle. This combined with thicker oil mean that mileage is much much worse until full warm up. If you live in a large town you also have winter gas, which is not as efficient.
There is nothing wrong with driving off without warming up your car, it just wont get very good gas mileage. It will be better though than the mileage you get from just idling the car though.
Once the car is fully warm (could take a while in extreme cold), the outside temp should not effect fuel mileage very much at all.
If you really want to expiriment. Drive for 20-30 miles in extreme cold to fully warm the engine. Then reset the mileage gauge and see what the figures are.
The best solution is to not let the car cool down, but this requires a heated garage, or a plug in engine heater (not as effective as the garage)
> gasoline engine when the temp is near zero.
Not with Prius.
It stores 3 liters of HOT coolant in a thermos everytime you power off. Then when you power back on, it pumps that HOT coolant into the head of the engine.
So without actually even starting the engine, it is already partially warmed up.
The coolant will remain HOT overnight, and warm for up to 3 days. The thermal storage device is rather impressive.
JOHN
(which was redesigned) should achieve fuel economy levels closer to the estimated values.", the test expert of EPA informed me yesterday.
My 2004 Prius, despite still being rather new is already revealing itself to deliver even better efficiency.
So I could easily see your year-round mostly-highway average being in the upper 40's.
JOHN
Thanks for your thoughts concerning the MPG issue. You seem to be quite knowledgeable concerning the Prius. Based upon my projected driving needs I would anticipate reaching the 100,000 mile mark sometime around the 4 year period. Do you have any thoughts/concerns about the potential for battery pack maintenance/replacement at or in excess of 100,000 miles. Also, I have located a dealer who is willing to let me have a loaded Prius off of the TRAC program. Should I have any concerns about that kind of an arrangement? Thanks again for sharing all of your vast Prius information with me.
> for battery pack maintenance/replacement at or in excess
> of 100,000 miles
You'll notice, especially on the highway, that the battery-pack is rarely used. Most of the electricity for the motor comes directly from the engine instead.
You'll also notice that the battery-pack is rarely ever (I never saw it) allowed to dip to the 1/4 mark. The absense of any deep-discharge events helps to insure very long life for the battery-pack.
All that, along with the number of recharge cycles available, the "lifetime" estimate appears to stand well.
So my guess is you'll be able to exceed 200,000 miles without a lick of battery-pack trouble, just like the Prius cab driver did in Vancouver.
JOHN
> data to determine when the mean time to battery failure
> will be
Toyota does. Remember, Prius has been on the road since 1997. And having enough data now is likely why they have begun including "lifetime" in their expectation quotes; originally, they didn't.
> muddy sound
First, that is just an opinion. Second, you can change the speakers.
> so integrated you can't replace it
Actually, you can. Several people have because they wanted MP3 support.
> objective opinion
An opinion is better than real-world data... really?
JOHN
I recently refueled at a Phillips 66 (not my usual brand) and saw a slight decrease in average MPG the last couple of days to 44-45MPG. This could also be related to the colder weather since the refuel but I'm just not sure yet.
Anyway I thought you might find this info useful since it's within your region of operation.
Give me a break! Just because a magazine writes about automobiles, who's to say they're real experts? John clearly stated that it was only his "guess" as to the life expectancy of the battery.
Mike
Don't forget about the accident avoidance data now available for vehicles too. (Some of us prefer not having an accident in the first place.)
JOHN
Since tire wear appears to be a major problem...tire selection is critical for this vehicle...most snow tires would have soft rubber and thus very adverse wear for this vehicle..
I assume snow tires with soft rubber compositions are a NO NO for the Prius. This would make alternative replacement tires very difficult as well as limited.
Does anyone have any experience with using snow tires for this vehicle? Mainly concerned about driving on icy roads. The Goodyear Integrity does not show a good rating for use in snow see TireRack for rating of tires.
Does anyone know of a good Michelin tire that could be used as a replacement to the Goodyear's?
Since the small hybrids use relatively small sized tires it appears the tires for hybrids need to be re-engineered for this higher weight small tire combo.
Thanks, Mike
Thanks for your specific information. Your situation is quite similar to mine. Did you have any concerns about the amount of miles you were driving when you made your decision to purchase a Prius? Also, I wanted to thank all of you for your responses relative to this question. They have been most helpful and since I have at least a 3 month wait before making my decision final I welcome any more comments that anyone thinks would be of interest. Once again thanks to everyone for all of their help.
> are a NO NO for the Prius
Actually, since treadwear ratings now go all the way up to 800, the much harder 460 still could be considered "soft".
And sorry, I haven't heard anything about soft rubber being a problem on snow. And since the first December I had my Prius it was the second snowiest Decemeber in Minnesota recorded history, I'd say it isn't a problem. I got through the worst of the snow just fine with those 160's. Perhaps it has more to do with ice instead. (We don't have much of that in Minnesota, since the temperature is well below water's melting-point most of the winter.)
JOHN
My data is actual.
And since discrediting someone is by no means constructive, I'm not going to respond...
Stick to the facts, please.
JOHN
Became aware of the 2004 Prius during my first visit to a Toyota dealer. I was actually shopping an Avalon at the time. After hearing about it and test driving one at a St. Louis dealership I decided I could live without all-wheel drive. The Interstates are typically clear except for a few times during the winter and since my wife has the Forester I have a fall back during those times. Since that opened up more options and we both fell in love with the Prius we ordered it. I felt pretty confident since Toyota is typically highly rated by Consumer Reports and one of the only automakers rated higher than Subaru.
Felt compelled to write after seeing the .cnn news story link dgrayson posted in his message 2097 in which GM's Lutz says hybrids make no sense. This stupid comment, from Detroit which has always maintained that it only builds what the consumer wants, betrays Detroit's head-in-the-sand mentality. http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/06/pf/autos/detroit_gm_hybrids/index- .htm
Yeah, the improved fuel economy may not pay for the premium of a Prius over an Echo, etc. However, one key overlooked virtue of the Prius is its SULEV emissions rating. Cleaner cars are good news for anyone who breathes. Some of us place a value on that.
And, to complete the formula, some of us understand that while we only pay $1.50 per gallon at the station, we pay much more in taxes to support the Pentagon and pay more dearly in lives lost protecting the supply of that $1.50 gasoline.
(which was redesigned) should achieve fuel economy levels closer to the estimated values."
In mid December 2003, a Toyota rep at 1-800-331-4331 said, "Toyota engineers are investigating into the low MPG concern of cold climate. They will have an answer about mid January."
> one key overlooked virtue of the Prius is its SULEV emissions rating. Cleaner cars are good
> news for anyone who breathes. Some of us place a value on that.
___The fact is that SULEV/PZEV capability can be made available for just a few hundred dollars on many automobiles. The following list should help show you what is available in this regard. In some cases; it is a particular model of the car in question
03 Dodge Ram CNG
03 Ford E250 Econoline CNG
03/04 Ford F150 CNG
03/04 Ford Focus
04 Honda Accord
03 Honda Civic Hybrid and GX - CNG
01-04 Honda Insight
00 - 04 Nissan Sentra
03/04 Toyota Camry
01 - 04 Toyota Prius
04 Volkswagen Jetta
03/04 Volvo S60 and V70
___There are probably more but these are just what I could find with 10 minutes of searching and some that I knew about off the top of my head. Even GM will begin to release PZEV rated automobiles in late 04 early 05 That is if you can believe them?
___The manufacturers have simply decided it wasn’t cost effective to install the necessary and slightly more costly HW to make the automobile in question meet the more stringent emission protocols. Probably because the US/Canadian/European consumer would not/does not know about it or has not demanded it for the small amount of additional outlay Take a look at the Toyota Echo as one example of where even Toyota decided it was not cost effective
___As for the OT Pentagon commentary, why don’t you take a look at the amount of oil imported into both Europe and Japan from the Middle East vs. what the US imports as an example of how your tax dollars are being spent. Kind of sucks, given we pay the Japanese for high R&D expenditure automobiles, the American manufacturer doesn’t receive a dime, yet the American manufacture employs hundreds of thousands more employees here in the states who pay taxes to pay for all that military Kind of a circle jerk although Ford is moving things along at a relatively rapid pace into the realms of Hybrid’s and cleaner automobiles. If they could just get their fuel efficiencies up, then I would have hope for them and our own jobs over the longer term
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
"You understand that the content within Town Hall is based on individual opinion and experience, which may vary significantly from one person to the next. Edmunds.com does not endorse or guarantee the accuracy of any Posting or other content in Town Hall..."
It is good to get your experience and opinion into the discussion...it is good to question others experiences and opinions. Let's keep it civil.
It's an ANALOG gauge. Even if it capacity didn't change due to temperature, all you'd have is ten blocks to work with. There is no precision with that at all. How's that different from a traditional vehicle? No precision there either.
That's why you use the gauge on the PUMP instead. Then you know PRECISELY how much gas is being sent to the tank.
Taking the DIGITAL readout for distance and the DIGITAL readout for gallons, you get PRECISELY what the efficiency was.
IT'S THE SAME THING YOU'D DO TO GET AN ACCURATE READING FOR A TRADITIONAL VEHICLE ANYWAY.
You are trying to make Prius different. That won't work though. You fill up when the "Add Fuel" message is shown. It's not difficult.
One thing that people tend to forget is the fact that rapid filling of the tank can cause an inprecise "full" indication, shutting off the pump too soon. That's true for ANY VEHICLE, not just Prius. But since Prius has a bladder too, it is more likely to happen with it. So, always use the slowest pump setting.
By the way, here in Minnesota, the pumps are especially tempermental in the winter. They tend to shut off prematurely using the fastest fill speed. It's a pain, especially standing there in the cold, but using the slowest really does help.
JOHN
Before interior getting warm (set to 75C, outside 50C), the AC (heat pumping?) kicks in and out every second or so, generating a faint shudder. It's noticeable at stop lights when ICE is not running. It feels like an earth-rumbling truck stopped next to you.
It could be the AC compressor turning very slowly. The shudder goes away after a few minutes when interior is warm.
John, I got the 04 Prius brochure from the shelf in a Toyota dealer's showroom. The fine print does not exist there. Where did you see it?
> Where did you see it?
Look on the window sticker. It makes the YMMV disclaimer, lists the variance ranges, and refers you to the testing website for further information.
JOHN
> how cold it is or isn't then the whole accuracy is skewed.
It's called a NON-LINEAR gauge.
So that behavior is actually completely normal. Each block does not represent a consistent unit. It varies based on level. This provides greater detail on the high-end.
JOHN
The following excerpt is from http://www.fueleconomy.gov/ and details how the MPG estimates are made:
"The test used to determine the city fuel economy estimate simulates an 11-mile, stop-and-go trip with an average speed of 20 miles per hour (mph). The trip takes 31 minutes and has 23 stops. About 18 percent of the time is spent idling, as in waiting at traffic lights or in rush hour traffic. The maximum speed is 56 mph. The engine is initially started after being parked overnight. Vehicles are tested at 68 F to 86 F ambient temperature."
I purchsed 10/31/03. I averaged 47 mpg in November and 43 mpg in December. Last week we hit 60 degrees in Northern Ohio. I drove a 60 mile round trip over gentle hills with few stops and averaged 61 mpg (by display). Thus, as mentioned many times before, the fuel efficiency estimates are NOT incorrect; they merely estimate fuel economy given certain specific driving conditions. I find that when I duplicate those conditions, I get VERY similar results. Moreover, the economy of my non hybrid car is similarly sensitive to driving conditions (see message 1392).
As a 2004 Prius owner with 2700 miles on the odometer, I concur that this is the way it works. On a long highway trip over Thanksgiving, I marked down the miles at which each block dropped off for 3 tanks of gas. There was no linear relationship.
As for the issue of "reserve," if someone wants to siphon out my tank when the MID tells me to add fuel they are welcome to do so but frankly I'm content to assume it's empty and fill up long before that point.
Per MidCow:
"Here is what I speculate is really true based on a fully expanded bladder and a 3 gallon reserve
10 bars= 11.01 gallons to 11.9 (completely full)
9 bars = 10.12-11.01
8 bars = 9.23-10.12
7 bars = 8.34-8.23
6 bars = 7.45-8.34
5 bars = 6.56-7.45
4 bars = 5.67-6.56
3 bars = 4.78-5.67
2 bars = 3.89-4.78
1 bars = 3-3.89
0 bars = 0 (true empty) to 3 gallons (safety reserve !)
==========================
This a linear scale! "
Indeed, that is linear but that is not the way the Prius works.
That's simple.
For my classic Prius in the summer (my most thorough data source), the top blocks represented the first 310 miles of driving. The bottom blocks represented the following 100 miles.
The middle clearly did not represent half and the removal of each block accelerated (less miles each time) as the tank level decreased.
JOHN
I continue to trust John's information since I believe it is extremely accurate. I don't believe he's on a crusade to disseminate misinformation as some seem to believe. I still can't understand why people frequent this forum that have virtually no interest in the Prius. THOSE people should GET A LIFE.
> misinformation
I couldn't. They nit-pick every little detail I mention. And they'd get away with it sometimes if it wasn't for my detailed online logs & spreadsheets. That makes it easy to look up the supporting data I need.
JOHN
That was no big deal for me. I just started taking apart the back of the Prius until I finally found something that looked like it could be a release. I shut the hatch, crawled inside from the front, and pushed it. Yup! That was it.
From inside the hidden storage area, remove the tiny black panel on it's side near the hatch, and poke your finger through that into the metal casing. There's a tiny metal button. (Toyota definitely wanted to make that inaccessible from outside.) Pushing that pops the hatch open.
JOHN
I have had my Pkg 9 2004 prius since October 17 and i believe I had the first green Pearl colored prius in the USA anyways i have put over 3,000 miles on it. I love it and for anyone interested my TOP SPEED was 102 mph on the 105(freeway in LA) at night. IT HAS POWER. When I got the car I also got a new cell phone with Bluetooth Wirless capabilities. BUT the connection cuts out every other 5 secs.WHY?? Without using the bluetooth and just the phone in the same place it works fine,,,So it is not the phone..Anyone else with this problem???
I do with the Sony Ericcson T610. So I created an illustrated document showing how to do the setup. Now I'm working on one to show how to do the phonebook transfer too.
The Prius part is easy, and the same for each phone. You do that first. Then play with your phone's Bluetooth options until you find an "ADD" or "DETECT" device option. When it does find the Prius, it will prompt you for the password shown on the Multi-Display. Then you'll probably need to select a "CONNECT" option to complete the setup.
JOHN
How many cheerleaders?
> connection cuts out every other 5 secs.WHY??
Not sure. Mine works fantastic.
What kind of phone do you have? Some of the older ones actually require a firmware update to work correctly.
JOHN