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There is a glaring failure in your post to justify your position. Great discussing with you. Nothing like your type to shut down discussion. I wouldn't mind having more friends who are in your political fold, the problem is that they insist on shutting down discussions as soon as it might get interesting and as soon as they are asked to justify their position.
I am not saying I hate you or your family, or everyone in your church, I am just trying to debate some ideas. There is a difference between people and ideas.
The debate on religion is one I know more about than offshore drilling. If you are really a deep thinking and independently-minded person, have you really thought through the evidence for and against that position? Is everyone who doesn't see things your way 'out to get you'?
Well, this was about ethanol in gasoline, but clearly this has gone off in a different direction.
I drive a hybrid because it allows me to purchase less foreign oil. That's it, that's the only reason. But as much as I like to achieve that end, I don't want to raise food prices and starve people in developing countries by taking our corn and turning it into fuel. There is too much of our own oil in the ground and off shore to be doing that.
As for the rest of your comments I don't even see the need to go there on this forum. Actually there is a forum on global warming that you would enjoy. They love to
arguediscuss there.What I have noted though, looking through these posts is that Prius, more so than any other hybrid, seem to attract tree huggers, global warming alarmist, SUV hating, left wing- non-religious people. I'm left wondering then just how comfortable I would be driving one. I really like the idea of 50 mpg but that's it. That's all there is to it.
I drive a Prius for several reasons. I used to live in the Great Lakes region where air quality can be a real problem, and I love driving a car w/ very low emissions. I also teach environmental chemistry and about air pollution, so I like not being hypocritical about the emissions of my own vehicle and smog. I am married to a medical professional who knows the statistics about the effects of air pollution on health. It really bothers me when I have to endure the emissions of other folk's poorly maintained very inefficient vehicles. I don't want to bother anybody else or affect anyone else's health by my driving.
Also, I am aware that we are going to run out of oil in the foreseeable future. Exactly when things are going to get tight is debatable, but I think it is starting to happen. I will probably switch my car to a plug-in as soon as it is economical to do so. I agree with you, it is good to help us move away from dependence on foreign sources of oil.
Also, I am glad to support modern vehicles. In my eyes, 98% of the vehicles on the road are dinosaurs. I know that statement right there is going to upset a lot of folks, but we have just been allowing ourselves to keep producing and driving very inefficient and dirty vehicles. Hybrids are not perfect, I'll agree, but today's hybrids are a step in the right direction. Battery technology is improving at a good rate right now and in a few years the benefits of better batteries are going to hit the market. In short another reason I like driving a hybrid is that I am a supporter of cars getting cleaner and more efficient.
It's a matter of perspective, and who you end up talking to. Perhaps there have been extreme alarmists and tree huggers on here but the Prius drivers I have met have been thoughtful and intelligent people. Sure there are probably some whackos driving Prii, but don't blame that on the car!
David
ps. I am sorry to have helped an discussion that is not appropriate to this forum get started here.
What I have noted though, looking through these posts is that Prius, more so than any other hybrid, seem to attract tree huggers, global warming alarmist, SUV hating, left wing- non-religious people. I'm left wondering then just how comfortable I would be driving one. I really like the idea of 50 mpg but that's it. That's all there is to it.
Well my wife and I will be buying a 2010 Prius and believe me we don't hug trees. We also don't eat whales.
I seriously doubt that any farmers will be contributing to global starvation by selling ethanol. Oh and I am 100% opposed to ethanol being used in gasoline. I thin farmers being paid to not grow food is stupid.
The only political statement I want to make with my car is that I am tired of spending far too much money on gas.
We drive a lot and the Prius will cut down on our fuel usage which will allow us to spend more money on other things.
Lots of lesbians buy the Subaru Forester but that doesn't make everyone who drives one a lesbian.
Sure environmental nut jobs will rally around the Prius until something greener comes along. Maybe they will migrate to the Chevy Volt? But not all Prius owners are enviro nut jobs.
I've seen as many idiots driving a Prius as I have an SUV. Prius owners tend to drive slow and some SUV owners try and push you off the road. Both are wrong!
Also give the president time. I used to be a hard-core republican so I'm real familiar with the workings of that party and for certain the cry would go out if McCain had gotten in office to give him some time to fix what's broke.
So cut Obama some slack just like you would have with McCain and give him time to fix things. It's not going to happen overnight.
Ben Stein is quite good in it. And no, he is not a raving "religious right" type as you were wont to tag me with. And that's all I have to say about this other-than-Prius topic.
Now I'm spoiled. I look at cars that get 20 city / 28 highway and I don't think that's good enough. I never noticed before because I would never have driven any economy cars but there are not any decent cars that get 30+ mpg on average. High highway EPA estimates look good on advertisements but I have never averaged much more than 10% over the city estimate so unless you have something like a hybrid where the city milage is more than the highway milage I don't think they would give me high overall averages. Even diesel won't give me the average I desire. (I had a BMW diesel in 1985 just for the novelty of it).
My heart has been looking at the CTS and Pontiac G8 GXP and I like the new Camaro and 370Z. But, I've been telling my friends at work and church to be prepared for tough times and while I can afford high priced gasoline, I think I need to walk the talk. The enemy we fight do not mind living in caves without electricity. They could care less about killing their own countrymen either. The oil producing nations, many of whom support terrorist, should they be willing to cut their own financial piggybank, can bring the capitalized world to its knees overnight.
One person cannot change all that. But one person can do their part. It's so easy to say the problem is too big and just ignore it. I decided I couldn't do that anymore.
The Ford Fusion Hybrid, The Camry Hybrid and the Prius are the only cars I have on my list right now. The TCH is a bargan right now, the Fusion is fresh and more comfortable than the Camry (at least in the front seat) and the new Prius seems like a good compromise in size and utility with excellent FE. Throw in a few electrical goodies and I can even stay interested. Maybe enough that I won't keep turning my head every time a CTS passes me.
True, and they will continue. But on 9-11 they brought the fight to us
If 1 in 10 depend on Chrysler for our jobs then the other 9 must depend on Ford and GM. I really doubt that all of us would not have jobs if the Big 3 went away (not that I want them to)
Well, yes it does. Never mind that it would destroy what's left of the American economy. That's not the really important issue. I love our Prius. Even if gas prices go absolutely over the cliff, we would still have at least some ability to get around. It would, however, pretty much destroy America. Almost as though that was what the whole idea was??
All our 'easy oil' is gone or near gone. The low-lying fruit has all been picked. Bush's Energy Task Force reported this in summer 2007. You can now get down off your high horse.
It's supposed to rain today and golf is cancelled..that is not Obama's fault..even tho the local GOP already has a press release out stating that very fact.
Your Lexus is several years old also. How old/new is the Prius?
And no, I don't think Ben Stein has the scientific background to assess whether or not the planet's mechanisms to cope with CO2 can react fast enough to mitigate the current rapid rise in that green house gas. To say nothing of other naturally occurring green house gases, like Methane, that are also rising due to humans.
Glad you enjoy your Prius. Hope you aren't teaching your kids that Darwinism led to the Holocaust per Ben Stein.
you actually graduated from college?
'But the sales guy told me everything was pushbutton, even the 4WD'. Wait, I was the sales guy. Oh yeah that's right I sold it to myself [ acid reaction from the 60's ].
Actually I never mentioned him in my posting. However after just watching the news it does seem to me that rather than give money to Chrysler all he would have needed to do was come out and endorse Chrysler and the masses that are watching every move he makes and are simpy ga-ga over everything he does would buy a Chrysler. That would have saved them and not cost me anything.
It does bother me that there is a lot of Anti-"Foreign" auto talk going on and as far as I'm concerned the Ford Fusion Hybrid is the only example of Detroit trying to help the environmental problems that the Political Left are touting and the dependance on foreign oil issues the Political Right is concerned about. Unfortunately both sides are still buying gas guzzlers.
But all the talk has to hurt Toyota Prius, Camry Hybrid and Highlander Hybrid some, if not in sales then at least in public acceptance.
The "average" Joe thinks hybrids are hyped. I just don't get it. I'm driving an SUV that gets 25 mpg. I had a car that averaged 37+ and am looking at one that should give me 50+ in the Prius. Even the "average" Joe should see that Toyota is designing a wide range of vehicles that as as good as you can get right now. They are so far ahead of the curve it's funny to compare them to anyone else.
IF they would just make their cars somewhat more flashy and handle a tad better then most of the critism would have to disappear. Seriously what would it cost to make the camry Hybrid have just a little better suspension? Personally I thought the new camry is a good looking car and the people I hear critizing the looks now look like obvious Toyota haters and not really judging the car on its looks. The Prius is a little funky looking but the 2010 is crossing the threshold of something I wouldn't be embarrased to be in The Highlander Hybrid is comfortable, has a great second row seat and is very versitile.
Don't expect me to buy American until they offer me acceptable options to Toyota.
Well hybrids are hyped... to the limit! it's what the marketing companies do. Doesn't matter what company. The Big 3 are dinosaurs. Slow to move and react and it takes them an ice age or two before they can alter their plans. There is a reason there are no dinosaurs left.
GM can't make a car that can compete with Honda or Toyota, period. If they could have they would have done so... or would they? They make great small cars in Europe and yet these are cars that will never come to the US.
I have no sympathy for any car company that could bring over small efficient cars and refuses to do so.
As far as Fiat and Chrysler. I guess everyone has forgotten that Fiat = Fix It Again Tony. Fiat made a lot of crap cars and died in the US market as a result. Along with Triumph, MG, Renault, Peugeot and a whole bunch of others. Americans vote with their wallets. The Big 3 holding off on bringing over those small cars doesn't seem to have helped them any.
IF they would just make their cars somewhat more flashy and handle a tad better then most of the criticism would have to disappear. Seriously what would it cost to make the camry Hybrid have just a little better suspension? Personally I thought the new camry is a good looking car and the people I hear critizing the looks now look like obvious Toyota haters and not really judging the car on its looks. The Prius is a little funky looking but the 2010 is crossing the threshold of something I wouldn't be embarrassed to be in The Highlander Hybrid is comfortable, has a great second row seat and is very versatile.
I don't see why a hybrid or a diesel or any fuel efficient car can't be fun to drive. The Camry is a no brainer. Toyota wants it to have a soft suspension to steal older folks away from Buick. :P
The Accord is much tighter and yet I know people who just hate that sporty feel in their appliance. They want a land yacht that floats down the road, no bumps no nothing. Kinda like the Buick Electras of old.
I think most manufacturers have no idea what people want so they stick with whatever sells. For certain the Camry sells to people who like that isolationist ride.
I can't see why they can't make sporty and fuel efficient cars but look at a Mazda Miata, it only gets about 25 mpg combined! Why is that? It's only 167 hp!
Sadly car makers use focus groups and make generic decisions that will appeal to the most people. Toyota and Honda do not take risks per se'.
GM and Ford couldn't come up with a new idea to save their corporate butts and Chrysler has been on the ropes for decades.
Vote with your wallet, buy cars you like not just because of where they were built.
You need to get it through your head now everybody wants a Honda or toyota. If GM can't complete against H or T than until last years fluke outsold T every year for what almost 75 years. To bring things closer to home in March GM outsold T by a little over 20 thousand unit. In April they sold more than 50 thou. more than T, heck even Ford out sold T in April. So it looks like you don't know what you are talking about. Here GM is in a world of hurt though not their fault but thats another story in itself and they still out sold big bad T. Get used to it there are other cars besides the Prius and those of us who can afford a little gas or those of us who are just to tall for a Prius or those of us who have worked hard for 40+ years feel we deserve a lux type car and by American whenever we can. I fit all the above and you won't find a foreign piece of clothes in my closet nor the same with my shoes. New Balance made in America instead of something else made by second graders. The talk here about oil and how it supports the midddle east maggets I bet have no problem supporting the companies who use 2nd graders to make their clothes. :P
I'm going to assume you mean "Not everyone" and I agree. My point is not about the prius specifically. But the only reason GM sold more was the massive discounts they were offering. If Ford can make a car that gets 65 mpg in Europe but for some reason can't in the US then they have real problems.
I don't want to see US plants shut down. I want to see domestic car makers manufacture BETTER cars. I do not see this happening at the moment. My last domestic was a 1995 Impala SS. Since then they haven't made anything I have liked. I would like to see decently built small cars from Chevy, Ford and Chrysler and cars that can last 10 years in real world driving but my memories are of far too many cars that fall apart not long after the warranty expires. That's not including the repairs during the warranty that the dealers try and weasel out of fixing.
1-2 months of sales figures are meaningless unless they are taken in context. Massive discounts account for most of that, not an increase in quality.
If GM and Ford are so great, let them offer a 4 year 50K mile bumper to bumper warranty on everything. It won't happen! They'd lose their shirt fixing all those cars.
I sure do miss the domestic cars from the 1960's!
No one would offer a warranty at all if they didn't have to in order to sell their cars. The longest warranties are offered by companies where the perception (right or wrong) is that the car will be expensive to maintain or won't last long.
I've never bought an extended warranty on a Toyota because whatever glitches they have are usually worked out early. The 36,000 to 75,000 mile time frame is typically troublefree for most.
Interesting on the Caddy. I've been looking at the CTS and if they have a 4yr bumper to bumper warranty they should advertise that more as that is a selling feature on a car with a lot of electronic's that I don't trust longterm. I'll have to look into that.
The CTS at $32K though would sway my decision. As a third vehicle it would not be the daily driver and reliability is not as big a concern as long as GM still is making Cadillac's and the warranty is still intact. If I get the Prius it will be the "go to" car for everyday driving.
I like the idea of having at least 1 economy car though so it will take something big to push me in a different direction.
It's Nippon Denso actually and it's a Japanese manufacturer. They make Nav units for quite a few companies.
Better off buying a portable GPS, much cheaper and more easily upgraded or replaced.
If a built in Nav unit breaks, it's no big deal as long as it's under warranty. If it's not... you're screwed!
I really don't think I would have developed a sense of how to utilize the hybrid system adequately without the energy screens. I reset it just about every trip, short or long, and then learned how to approach each trip to game the system. It actually made driving fun, even when driving slower than others.
As far as reliability on cars, I like the reliability of Toyota's. But I'm not really down on other brands, except for Audi, Subaru and Chrysler, of which I figured getting burned once was enough. I've owned a little bit of everything. I even got burned on the Nissan 350Z and the alignment issues but I find myself looking at the 370Z and wondering if I should give them a second chance. Perhaps later when I retire I'll want a sports car again, or at least a sporting car (I really do miss the Infiniti FX45_wish it got better milage)
I may soon be #2
I seldom rely on anything any journalist has to say, even Consumer reports. Although I do like the little red balls beside "issues" for reliability. I think CR may be changine their ratings some, I don't keep up with them. One thing I always disliked was that the ratings don't delve into the distinction between "serious" issues and those easy to fix.
For example my TCH needed aligned from the factory. It caused the front tires to feather within the first 5000 miles before I rotated them or even noticed the problem. That would have been a black mark but a simple alignment fixed it. My 2003 Nissan 350Z chewed the tires up, they made a noise so bad in the first 4000 miles that I was embarrassed to have a friend ride with me. I hassled Nissan with that problem, getting alignments, changing tires rim to rim and eventually they gave in and put new tires on it. They started doing the same thing. I dumped it. I absolutely loved that car but the hassle and knowing what the future expense would be to own it after warranty worried me. I assume they fixed the problem. However in CR that too would probably show up ony as a black ball beside suspension. Two similar problems, two seriously differing degrees of issue.
My first Expedition needed a new rear end at 700 miles. Made me mad enough that my next two vehicles were Sequoia's. had I not traded the Sequoia for an Infiniti I would still be driving them. But in the break away we came back to Expedition because of "value" (read that as X-plan pricing and large rebates). The rear end was fixed and I'm sure someone is still enjoying that SUV. My current one has been trouble free.
My Audi experience was electrical. I'm pretty convinced that electrical problems are hard to fix and would occur across the line. The Germans have absolutely beautiful interiors and sweat the details but they need to sub out their electrical work to the Asians. They are too proud to do that I guess.
To me reliability has not been a problem as long as I have a garage near by and it's not the vehicle I depend on. Actually I typically have 3 vehicles and a company vehicle to choose from. But even with that I don't want a vehicle that has issues that can't be fixed.
The Prius has proven itself. Sure 1 in every 50,000 (made up number) may lose a battery or a display but I can live with those odds. I don't consider the Toyota Hybrids as a risky choice. I do however have some concern with the FFH long term. And it's not the hybrid part I worry about. Electric windows and door locks, radios, a/c compressors, etc... are the things that concern me. They can eat you up over the long haul if you keep a car for an extended time. I have not done that yet but the thoughts of doing that keep me interested as a challenge. I'm curious if I can beat Bob and run a Prius 300,000 miles. It would only take me 10 years.
I know if I get a CTS it would be a 50,000 mile love affair and then it's gone. Once you get addicted to glitz or horsepower there is always something new coming along to tempt you. I decided when I got the TCH not to play that game, but I still get tempted from time to time.
because I believe they do the best that they can. As most people realize, they do not "accept" vehicles from manufacturers, they purchase their own for testing, anonymously. They accept no advertising, etc. I believe they give a reasonably accurate portrayal of how a particular vehicle will hold up, etc. A lot of their info comes from the annual survey they send out to subscribers, the people who actually own and drive these vehicles. The results received plus the results of their own testing is how they arrive at their findings. In the April issue of this year, they found that the Prius was their top pick from over 300 vehicles tested and reported on. I was delighted - needless to say.
I've heard (and read) complaints in letters to CR over the years of just that - bias. I guess when someone's favorite doesn't rate very well, they become resentful and blame the one who down-rated it. After all, it couldn't be something wrong with the vehicle. And I don't mean that to be offensive.
The in dash nav units will most likely be money that cannot be recouped when the car is sold. I also like a big screen but the new Garmin and Tomtoms are considerably better and for around $500 they actually offer all the built-ins do.
I will miss the big energy screens on the Prius but they have to cut money somewhere, so it's the backup camera and energy screen.
I'm a fan of Honda and Subaru but have owned many makes and will never buy a Ford again nor any thing Chrysler touches.
I want to see a sports car that gets good fuel economy like maybe a hybrid or diesel Miata. The Mini Cooper S will be coming out with a diesel in it's John Cooper Works but that's more about performance than economy.
I miss some of my prior sports cars but no place to drive fast up here.
Just assisted my daughter tonight in picking out and purchasing a 2010 Ford Fusion. Good price, nice car. It had a more comfortable rear seat than the CTS I sat in. Not that I'd buy it over the Camry, but I did like the interior better. She fell in love with the SYNC and remote start (she doesn't park in a garage and hates to sit in the snow to warm up her car).
I checked with my sales buddy and had him change his 1st choice on his 2010 Prius allocation to Blizzard White with brown leather. Hopefully when it comes in he'll deal and I'll not have to walk and go look at a white FFH which I can get at X-Plan pricing
He didn't say it he typed it.
Perhaps he should have his fingers washed with soap? :shades:
Well unless you have a track license and a bucket load of money your new Vette is not going to go any faster than my wife's Honda Fit. Bottom line is due to the bad economy the cops have become very vigilant of speeders. So while you can speed you'll get caught pretty fast up here and by speed I don't mean 10-15 mph over the limit.
As far as a Miata being a sports car it is every bit a sports car and in fact is at least as true to it's heritage as a Vette. Arguably a sports car is 2 seats, 2 doors, manual transmission and a convertible top.
Lots of 911 owners don't like that definition but speed is not part of the equation. Otherwise the older sports cars wouldn't count and they defined the definition.
Someone once said "it's better to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow."
So when you are stuck in traffic at 70mph in a 600-700 hp car getting (if you are lucky) 25mpg have fun because you won't get to enjoy the speed the Vette was built for.
Diesels are fun to drive. I know because I've owned them when I was in Asia for 5 years. If you want a big V8 muscle car then by all means get one. When gas gets back up to $4 a gallon or higher if they add on more taxes, you will have to get a second job to pay for your gas. :sick:
Oh and to correct your error the MINI is coming out with a John Cooper Works package with a diesel engine. The Miata just has it's 167hp gas engine and yes it's still a sports car.
At least I am not ignorant of diesels. but you most likely read only US related things.
Diesel will be higher because of higher taxes on it. Also how many diesel cars have you owned? Driven? I lived in Asia for 5 years I drove a lot of diesels and I owned a Toyota Diesel Hi-Lux. You are spewing misinformation when you talk about smell and gelling and costs are high right now, but would come down if more is made. Also most diesels get far better fuel economy than hybrids... just not the ones they bring to the US.
The few diesels that are sold here are unreliable VW's (engine good, rest of car bad)
If you haven't driven diesels in other countries, I suggest that when you graduate high school you travel extensively as I have and try cars that you can't buy in the US. You would probably change your mind, since diesel is cheaper than regular gas in many countries.
Gelling is not an issue since you get a winter blend for it. so unless you are driving a Peterbilt to work it's a non-issue until it's 20-30 below zero.
Anyway there is a diesel forum so people can endlessly debate the merits of diesel. I'd buy one but not a VW and I can't justify buying a Merc.
The Prius battery gets low in cold weather also, so nothing is perfect. I'll still buy the Prius until they bring over a decent diesel with a realistic price.
But you can bathe in ignorance if you like, it's still a free country. :P