Right, including one category that you fell right into. If you service your car at the dealer or do warranty work there, even that "mini" deal worked out just fine for the dealer I'm sure... Saying you'd service there anyway is completely irrelevant. They still get your $$$, and to them, that "mini" deal makes more sense because they do.
Still no comment on what you bought eh??? Could it be that there will be a large AH-HA once we know what it is you feel you did so much better than TMV on?
"Come now, don't kid a kidder. If the only thing that you could generate were mini deals, you'd be out looking for a new job, because even a newbie salesperson can do that"
Who's kidding who? I never said the majority of my deals were mini's, just that I have to take them sometimes in order to hit my objectives. Just like the huge deals aren't the norm either...
Most of my deals will average the same profit. Hint: I never said they ALL did, just MOST of them. Which is why, on average, the spread is less than a few hundred bucks...
pts....you had good and legitimate reasons for selling your car. It's unfortunate that you've had some issues with it. It's also clear you don't want your headcache to be someone else's headache.....very noble.
I would imagine you would like to move out of it, into something more reliable. Best thing to do at this point is to probably trade it. It's going to fetch what it's going to fetch. Any reputable dealer is going to have the wherewithall to either take care of the maladies and put it on their lot, or wholesale it.
I have no idea what it might be worth. I'd shop it at 2-3 dealers to see what they think it's worth. At least, you'll have a ballpark figure to work with to know what the next step is. Good luck & keep us posted.
tj....every once in a while, someone comes in here, makes brash statements about how they save a whole lot more money on a new car than the rest of us "unwashed masses" here can do. We usually don't find out the particulars of their car deals (make, model, year, MSRP, purchase price) to verify the claims.
They come in with a flurry. "Educate" us. Then disappear when quizzed on the particulars.
What many people either don't know or won't admit is that dealers make the majority of their money from parts and service.
A typical dealership generates welll over half of its revenue from the service side of the dealership. Well over half of the revenue left over comes from used cars sales.
New car sales is a very small portion of the revenue stream for a dealership.
Some car dealerships even run the new car side at very close to break even. As long as the new car side can break even the rest of the dealership will make money.
"That said, I see pretty big swings in trade value from one dealer to the next"
Same make though? ACV or Trade Allowance?
If I have a customer on a car and we're working from a high starting point, I can show more for a trade than even I think it's actually worth. This happens quite often, especially on used cars.
If you really want to know ACV (Actual Cash Value) for a trade and not just an allowance, you have to compare it to the exact same car.
There are many people on this board that will scoff at paying $1500 over invoice (as you did on your BMW). While you and I know that that's actually a pretty good deal, there are some people convinced that a penny over invoice is far too much.
Could you have gotten a better deal if you waited? Probably.
Me too (I paid $593.00 over invoice... i.e. STICKER on my car lol... :surprise: ), and I work for the dealer .
About a month ago, I purchased a brand new upgraded Honda trading in my previous Honda which had low miles (about 16000) on it and only 2 years old. Because it was a base model, I thought maybe the dealer would wholesale it, since it might be hard to move. They didn't. They've listed in on their website as a Certified Used Car. I'm happy with what I got in trade-in on the car. My question, probably more amusement, is how can the dealer justify asking almost 4000 more than the car was worth when I bought it brand new???? Are they crazy???
tj....I think trade values (ACV) depends on a lot of things. If the dealer plans to wholesale a trade, or take it to auction, they aren't going to put any money into it that even remotely comes close to KBB. If they want to put it on their lot, then they have some flexibility as to what they think they can resell it for. But, then you are faced with what amount of the trade ends up on the other side of the ledger with the new car.
All that said, I've had as much as a $6K swing in trade value on a car going from one dealer to the next. It was a hard to pigeon hole sports car. But, one dealer wanted to put it on his lot. The other one (the low ball) was only willing to give well under Manhiem numbers on it. That was also the dealer that wanted more for his new car, too.
You aren't going to buy a new BMW 3 series for invoice....plain and simple. You know it. I know it. I don't care who you say you are or what you do (unless you're doing European delivery). Could I have done better? Maybe...maybe not. It wouldn't have amounted to a $100, though. I wasn't willing to "grind" for that $100.
thene...I was thinking the same exact thing as you. I smell (sniff....sniff) a different user name for one of our old friends.
I get the illusions of a good deal is a very powerful thing, but to list the used car for more than the MSRP of the car when it was new?? Are there really that many uninformed buyers out there who will be caught up in the idea that it's got low miles, in good condition, Certified, that they'd be willing to fork over way more $$$ than the car is worth?
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Sears or JCPenney will have a 75%-off sale on gold jewelry Friday after Thanksgiving! It's a miracle they can sell it so cheap! :P
Seriously, I agree with the replies, but I also see two issues with this inflated used-car pricing practice:
1) Many would-be customers will be scared away by the high initial asking price, not aware the final price can easily be negotiated much lower.
For example, my co-workers sometimes come to me for car purchase advise. (They know this is a "hobby" to me!) I often promote the possibility of purchasing 2-3 year old vehicles, depending on the situation. They might totally agree. But, lo and behold, a week later they purchase a new model. "We found they could sell us a new '06 model for less than $1K above the price they were asking for a similar '04 model." Too many customers aren't savvy to the fact there is significant negotiating room on most used cars. Others just don't want to haggle.
2) These inflated prices often cause less-informed private sellers to place unreasonable expectations on the price of their own automobile. (As an informed buyer, this is what irritates me!)
In our state, we don't pay sales tax when we purchase an automobile from a private party. So, I'm often looking at this as a strong possibility, before I decide to buy new. Based on my experience, too often a private seller sets his bottom price relatively high, completely based on other advertising he sees in the newspaper and AutoTrader. It's not until he receives a real-value trade-in bid that he comes down to reality!
"It's not until he receives a real-value trade-in bid that he comes down to reality!"
Well said.
I have never had a customer say "Wow, that's exactly enough for my trade". Everyone thinks their baby is pretty... no one wants to hear their baby is ugly (i.e. worth less than what book in "excellent condition" (which 90% or more people think their car is lol...) plus mileage add, says it's worth).
It's funny, because if we're the FIRST person to appraise someone's trade-in, it usually makes us look like the bad guy. Someone else can get the deal at the same terms, just because the customer had to hear it from someone else.
I'll agree that trade values can differ (sometimes wildly based upon the appraiser), but even when people get "more", they're still probably getting "back (less) of book value".
KBB, Edmunds, NADA, whatever... Are GUIDES. They don't buy cars. We do. If people are unhappy with what dealers offer, by all means, sell it to someone else. We can buy it at auction for the same if not less, and we get to pick the ones we WANT.
Honestly, I don't know what you're trying to say with this post that's any different than what I said.
some people are happy to walk in, pick a car, pay sticker, and move on with their lives.
I won't debate their levels of happiness, but my point was that the spread between the lowest priced and highest priced buyers is a lot more than $200. Since the difference between MSRP and the invoice-minus-incentives-and-rebates price is usually more than $200, I guess we agree.
most people fall in the middle, and end up paying maybe a difference of $1000 from lowest to highest in that middle range.
You're the only one who claimed that it was $1,000. Snakeweasel and Tjw seem to think it's just "a few hundred dollars." You're actually more in agreement with me than you are with them.
and in the end, even if a person knows how to negotiate - the dealer doesn't need to sell you car for what you think is the lowest price if he/she knows they can sell it for more...which in the end, comes down to the market value.
By that definition, every single sale is "market value", whether that price is below invoice or at MSRP for the same car.
If that's true, then maybe we're arguing over semantics. Fine, my goal then is to pay the lowest "market price" possible, even if some people are paying a "market price" that is $1,000 more, $2,000 more or whatever above that.
If you service your car at the dealer or do warranty work there, even that "mini" deal worked out just fine for the dealer I'm sure
I don't mind if the dealer makes money on the service work, but it doesn't determine where I buy the car. Where I buy the car and where I have it maintained are not related, so the dealer with the good service department that is conveniently located is going to get my business anyway.
Who's kidding who? I never said the majority of my deals were mini's, just that I have to take them sometimes in order to hit my objectives.
That's fine, but that contradicts your $200 comments. If we are to believe that the only difference that you can extract for a bump on a given car is just $200, after all of that test driving and hard bargaining, then I'd say that you're getting "taps" and not many "bumps".
tj....I've noticed it's kind of a crap shoot when it comes to trade values....as you say. Depends on the appraiser, whether he wants the car on his lot, amount of "rehab" (the less, the better).
Based on what rroyce advised when he was around, I made sure I had all service receipts on the front seat. All major (and minor) body work fixed. Deep tread on the tires. And, a detail job done right before I took it to a dealer. In short, any demerit the dealer could possibly give, was removed.
That said, I haven't traded a car in a long time. But, others that I've helped trade, that do the same as above, usually get pretty close to KBB "good" condition. They were usually not trading an albatros, either (like a big SUV).
Any car is only worth what someone else (in this case, a dealer) is willing to give. I don't think I've ever taken a bid for my trade at less than the trade value given by the average of all the usual sources (KBB, NADA, Black Book, etc), though.
others have mentioned the $1000 range. i don't know where you're getting the $200 from...unless you are taking a literal stand when someone says "its only a difference of a couple hundred..."
but whatever floats your boat...im not gonna change anyone's mind...on these message boards, everyone thinks they are right...just the nature of the beast...
my point was that the spread between the lowest priced and highest priced buyers is a lot more than $200.
My point is not the difference between the highest priced buyer and the lowest price buy, but of the middle 80%. Sure there is going to be a large difference between that one idiot that pays over sticker and the one lucky guy who stumbles onto the never before offered and never will you see this again in the history of the universe super duper deal.
But then neither of those are at market price, nor are they the norm.
Now the other 80-90% of the buyers will be within a few hundred bucks of an "average.
my goal then is to pay the lowest "market price" possible, even if some people are paying a "market price" that is $1,000 more, $2,000 more or whatever above that.
I would be willing to bet that the lowest "market price" that you pay will not be the lowest price. And I would be willing to bet that your lowest "market price" is within a few hundred $ of that "average" price.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
OK, your definition of market price is apparently different from Thene's. He's saying that every sale is done at market, you're saying that it's the middle 80%.
Let's say you're right. If 20% of the sales aren't at the "market price", that means that there would be more than 3 million new cars sold in the US every year that aren't at your definition of market. (There are about 16-17 million new cars sold in the US every year.) I'd rather be one of the one million people, or whatever the number is, who are below market as you define it, than at or above market with the majority.
To get there, you need to know the invoice, holdback and incentives, because that will give you a hint of where the bottom is. It's not the only info that you need, but it is helpful.
I think that everybody understands that there are a few cars that one has to buy at a premium, but there aren't many of those. Usually the cars being sold at a high markup have a perfectly good substitute available so that it isn't even necessary to buy one of these, except for the first-on-the-block kind of buyers (we all know one of these, don't we?) who need to have the Miata/Prius/etc. before everyone else.
"That's fine, but that contradicts your $200 comments. If we are to believe that the only difference that you can extract for a bump on a given car is just $200, after all of that test driving and hard bargaining, then I'd say that you're getting "taps" and not many "bumps"."
Nupe. Sorry, but that doesn't contradict my "couple of hundred bucks" statement AT ALL. I have never said that the only bump I could get was $200. Often times, we get people like you (who start at a LOW figure) who we have to "bump" to get in line with the other 80% of profit averages.
What you neglect to realize, is that not everyone is incapable of being persuaded to pay an average profit.
Just because you don't (or at least think you don't), doesn't mean anything really. The AVERAGE profit on a new car will range a couple of hundred bucks. We may have to do a little "bumping" to get some people there (to an average sized profit), but, as you say, that's why we aren't flipping burgers.
"Where I buy the car and where I have it maintained are not related"
Again... nupe. Realize that MOST people still buy the car at the most "convenient" dealership with regards to where they live. Will the "grinders" drive 50 miles to save $100? Sure. But demographically speaking, we capture the majority of our "local" traffic.
Your reasoning of servicing it there because it's "convenient" to you and nothing else is irrelevant.
You have already paid the dealership far more than your "mini", even if all the work was warrantied, and they won *neener neener*. They sold you a car for a "mini", and have made plenty of $$$ because of YOU. I'm sure they are grateful.
Still no comment on what you bought eh??? In that case, you'll probably end up paying (or at least making) that dealership a LOT of profit methinks :P
I have never said that the only bump I could get was $200.
Sure you did. If the difference between prices is only "a few hundred dollars", then you apparently are unable to get much out of buyers. Maybe you need new batteries for your calculator? :confuse: Often times, we get people like you (who start at a LOW figure) who we have to "bump" to get in line with the other 80% of profit averages
That would be tough, being that I don't name the first price. And while I build a "bump" or two into my price, I still end up at a low point. What you neglect to realize, is that not everyone is incapable of being persuaded to pay an average profit.
I never said this at all. On the contrary, I'm saying that most people pay too much, and that it's possible for them to pay less if they learn the system. You have already paid the dealership far more than your "mini", even if all the work was warrantied, and they won
You sound like you're just licking your wounds with that comment. I'm sure that the dealership would have preferred to get my service business AND not do the sale at a mini.
And as I pointed out, it just happens to be coincidental that the dealership that sold me the car gets some (not all) of the service business. If their service department sucked, I wouldn't go there for anything at all. I'll buy a car at a dealership that is convenient, and get it serviced where I want to get it serviced. The warranty is good at every dealership, remember?
I'm sorry, but your brothers and sisters just didn't make a lot of money from me, they really didn't. I know that it hurts you to know this, and you keep trying to find some way to prove me wrong, but it's true. I had no trade to steal, no window etching, no clear bra, no financing, no undercoating, just a new car that had no incentives whatsover, rebates, year-end kicker or whatever. Unlike you, I don't have numbers to make, I just have a car to buy on occasion, and it is easy to take advantage of your need to make numbers in order to buy around the bottom. It's very easy, actually.
OK, your definition of market price is apparently different from Thene's. He's saying that every sale is done at market, you're saying that it's the middle 80%.
I am not saying its anything, I am saying that with anything market price is within a certain range. Is that range the mid 80% of sales or the mid 75% or the mid 99% I am not saying. I am saying you can't take extremes as they are not reflective of the market.
As an example I can buy a can of soup at Kroger for 79 cents or at the Piggly Wiggly for 80 cents of at the safeway for 81 cents or at the quicky mart for 99 cents. The market price for that can of soup runs between 79 and 81 cents, the 99 cents at the quicky mart is an abonomality and a very small percentage of soup being sold.
I'd rather be one of the one million people, or whatever the number is, who are below market as you define it, than at or above market with the majority.
So would I.
To get there, you need to know the invoice, holdback and incentives, because that will give you a hint of where the bottom is. It's not the only info that you need, but it is helpful.
Nope that information will not get you there. You get the the same way you get to be one of those who leave Vegas with more money than you came in with, and thats luck.
Remember that the bottom line that a dealer will sell a car for is what he thinks the next person through the door will pay for it.
That bottom 10% (or 5% or 2% whatever it is) usually stumbles into a deal. Its that guy who knows the owner and gets the car at pure cost. Its the guy that walks in at the end of the month and the dealership is eager to get that one last sale to make bonuses. Its the guy that is willing to take that basic level of car with no options in the baby puke green color thats been sitting on the lot for 6 months. Its the guy who stumbles onto that one loan '06 sitting among a sea of '07's four months into the '07 model year. Its the guy who is willing to take the hail damaged car in order to save some cash. These are the ones that get the "below market" cost.
You walk in with the invoice less holdback and incentives you won't do any better than that middle 80% (or whatever it is) and some of them will do better.
Best to know what the market will allow.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
it sure sounds like a person who used to roam these forums thinking he knew everything about negotiating and car sales (ahem ...socala4)
LOL. If what you are saying about socala4 being back is true, then you guys are in big trouble. He routinely ate your lunches when debating negotiation strategy and car sales... and did so with class, without the need for sarcasm or insults.
Remember that the bottom line that a dealer will sell a car for is what he thinks the next person through the door will pay for it.
There's more to it than that. Every day that a car sits on the lot, it costs more for the dealer to hold it because of the cost of the financing that keeps it on the lot.
Also, by selling that car, the dealership can replace that car with new inventory. It isn't just about margin, it's also about inventory turn.
The old expression, "A bird in hand is better than two in the bush" applies here. The smart bird knows that the salesperson wants every sale possible to make his numbers, and the sales manager wants to make his volume numbers, get his allocations, and so on, which means that they will settle for a low price if that's all they can get out of you. Of course, they'll take more if they can get it -- and they will try to get it -- but they'll settle for less if the car isn't one of the vast majority that aren't in short supply.
OK, your definition of market price is apparently different from Thene's. He's saying that every sale is done at market, you're saying that it's the middle 80%.
ok, "HE" didn't say anything, "She" did. and you're putting words in my mouth. i didn't say "every sale is done at market". im glad you feel the need to prance around telling us all that the salesperson didn't make money off you. makes you feel good i bet.
jip - the backhanded remarks that socala4 would make about the sales profession were far from "classy"...
again, pch, im not gonna feed into this need to be "right" whatever you believe is fine...im not gonna change it...enjoy your life.
OK, so you don't want to be misquoted, that's fine. This is what you said earlier in this forum --
the dealer doesn't need to sell you car for what you think is the lowest price if he/she knows they can sell it for more...which in the end, comes down to the market value.
So what you're saying is that if I buy the car from the dealership in an arm-lengths transaction, I paid market value, regardless of the price paid. Even if it's a mini. Right?
Or are you saying that some people can walk in off the street and pay something different from market value? And if they can pay less than market value, however you define it, you'd do all of us car buyers a favor by telling us how we can do that, because a lot of us do like to save money.
Every day that a car sits on the lot, it costs more for the dealer to hold it because of the cost of the financing that keeps it on the lot.
Granted but if you were the dealer would you sell the car to you for $500 less or keep it for a couple of more days, pay $10-15 more in costs and sell it for $500 more? Inventory costs are only a few dollars a day and its worth it to sell for more days on down the line.
That only comes into play with a dog of a car that they cannot move, like the base model in baby puke green with the manual transmission and no options. The ones that sit on the lot for months at a time. Not for the cars that are regually turning over that selling to you for hundreds less only gets it off the lot a week earlier.
Also, by selling that car, the dealership can replace that car with new inventory. It isn't just about margin, it's also about inventory turn.
its more complicated than that, you can turn inventory over quickly and lose money, you can turn inventory over slowly and make money. I would bet that Isell sells more cars himself than BR dealership sells. Yet I bet both dealerships are making big bucks.
The thin is its not just inventory turn around but the cost of inventory storage, inventory acquisition costs and gross profit. And between turnover time and gross profit there is a trade off. Increase your gross profit you increase the time it takes to turn over your inventory and visa versa. The trick is not to maximize your gross profit on each individual sale, nor is it to turn over inventory as quickly as possible. The trick is to maximize your total overall profit. That means fine tuning your turn over time and your gross profit per vehicle.
That means that its not important just to turn over inventory. I am sure my local MB dealership can turn over cars really quick by selling them at Chevy prices. But they would lose money very quickly.
That being said if a dealership was reasonably sure they could sell for much more a few days later why sell to you for that much less? In other words they are going to sell it for market unless you stumble onto one of the things I mentioned in an earlier post.
The old expression, "A bird in hand is better than two in the bush" applies here.
So does "haste make waste". The dealer isn't going to rush into a sale just to make a sale if its well below what others are paying for right at this moment.
The smart bird knows that the salesperson wants every sale possible to make his numbers
True but unless its the last few days of the month and they haven't made their numbers they are not going to sell for less than what they have been selling for or expect to sell for in the next few days or weeks. In short if they have a study stream of people paying $18K for a car they are not going to take your offer of $17K. That is unless its 8PM on the last day of the month.
which means that they will settle for a low price if that's all they can get out of you.
correction that means that they will settle for a low price is thats all they can get out of your or the next couple of customers. And thats if they need to make the numbers and if it looks to them like they may not.
You can tap dance your way around it but unless you come across one of those circumstances that I have mentioned your going to be in that 80+% that are going to be within a few hundred bucks of the average.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And if they can pay less than market value, however you define it, you'd do all of us car buyers a favor by telling us how we can do that, because a lot of us do like to save money.
I did in post #1091, its usually done by luck, knowing someone in the business (and not just the salesman) or buying a car that no one else wants.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
nothing is absolute. you seem to want to make this a black and white argument when there is a lot of gray area involved. when i sold cars, i knew certain cars wouldn't sell for MSRP, so i would give a fair market value offer for the car to the customer when he/she came in. do we sell some for more? yes. do we sell some for less? of course. do the numbers that people come up with depend on market value. most likely.
sure, you may be the worlds best negotiator, and get a much larger discount than the rest of the folks buying that car. sometimes a dealer just has to make a sale. does market value have a play in that? indirectly, yes.
its not a matter of it being only situation A or situation B. there are too many variables that you don't want to see. you are only seeing your side and what you've done with regards to car shopping. until you sit on the other side of the desk, you really can't get a true feeling for what the general population does.
"I have never said that the only bump I could get was $200.
Sure you did. If the difference between prices is only "a few hundred dollars", then you apparently are unable to get much out of buyers. Maybe you need new batteries for your calculator?"
I'm not sure where the confusion lies, so I'll try one more time. The "bumps" we get don't amount to only $200 just because the average profit spread on a new car is only a couple of hundred doillars.
Let's say I have a customer that wants to buy a car that averages $1500 in profit and he is offering $250. In order to "bump" him up to an average profit, I need to "bump" him how much exactly? And when we do (most of the time... at least to "market" value), he falls right in line with what I've been saying all along.
Check your calculator :confuse:
"I'm sorry, but your brothers and sisters just didn't make a lot of money from me"
Possibly. What is more likely is that if you did really pay substantially below market you had to make some sacrifices. Since you won't tell us what you bought, or how much you paid, I'll just assume:
1) It was over-stocked or distressed merchandise (in which case my "brother or sister" probably made a juicy spiff because you helped them unload it...)
Or
2) You helped them hit a bonus level and they really couldn't care less about what they actually made on the "mini".
We don't do "ugly" deals just for the heck of it...
T
PS: We make $150.00 on the occassion we decide to take a pure "mini". As discussed before, there are usually dozens of mitigating factors, and rarely is it truly a "mini" anyway.
I have nothing to hide, why not share some specifics on your "deal"?
That was never the impression I got of socala. The only thing I heard were insults to the buyers and the sellers here. No class was ever shown. Nor was any sort of measureable expertise (as he claimed). Plus, he/she never had one ounce of proof that what he said he did, he actually did. I think one of the accountants here exposed him as not knowing business models, in the least, when he claimed he did.
Back to "deals"...I don't think any of us who don't figure the inevitable bump in our offers. I believe we all start lower than what we actually plan to spend.
As far as who makes the first offer, I don't think that matters. The dealer usually starts at MSRP as their first offer. The buyers start below their "bump" number. For most buyers, they know that's how the car buying game goes.
Personally, I try to compress that inevitable back and forth "offer--re-offer". Sometimes I only make one offer. Sometimes, I do the "low offer" figuring in the inevitable bump. It really depends on the make/model of car I'm trying to buy.
If it takes too long, or we're just too far apart in negotiations, I just move on to find a dealership who is willing to get to my number, quicker.
tj...I was thinking the exact same thing. The only way a dealership agrees to less than market on a given car is for the unit to be distressed merchandise in some way (discontinued model, new revamped model on the way, bad color, bad option choice, poorly received in the marketplace, poor selling model/lots of stock, etc).
You're Toyota, right? The only thing I can see in your inventory that I'd consider distressed might be a left over Echo. The rest you're going to sell a little above or a little below that "average" we've been speaking about....not thousands. I would think you'd make a bit more on the FJs since they seem to be a hit with the public, too. Corrolas, although not distressed, are being faced with a redesign that has been made public. I would imagine Corollas might offer slim profit margins.
The rest....
Camry--popular but plentiful...very little need to go skinny..average markup...may go skinny to get a unit out the door Avalons--same as Camries Yaris--not much markup...may get a dealer to go skinny depending on stock levels 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra...soft truck market...skinny deals should be available..especially on Tacoma with a redesign on the way. Land Cruiser--big markups, cult following...heavily discounted but still healthy margins
The trucks are tough right now, but the FJ does remarkably well, and we are already taking orders from people who are quite aware that the all-new Tundra will be at minimum a little OVER sticker if they want one in the first few months.
Surprisingly, if we still had any Echos we'd probably just use them as loaners for a while, and then sell them for $12995.00 as certified used cars. We don't have any issue at all moving them, they just have to be marketed properly hehe...
I'm not a huge fan either. Personally I think the 4Runner is a much better vehicle for the $$$ and we are lucky to get $500 or so over invoice on most of them.
People are weird, but if they think the FJ is worth it, I'm not going to tell em no :P
T
PS: We have a TRD Edition on the ground and have already had offers of $5000.00 over MSRP on it. We won't sell it for that lol... I too think it's ridiculous, but hey, it's the "market"
That's right snake....it was you who exposed our "friend" socala. He snuck away quietly after that expose.
Is he back?
tj....I agree with you about the FJ. I've had my 4runner for a few years now. Great vehicles (even though mine's for sale).
I can see Echos as loaners. They'd be a good car to resell as CPO (if any dealer would take the time and energy to make the effort). I've driven them as rentals. They're pretty crude. Not something I'd want to cruise around in as a primary vehicle. But, would be a good buy for a teen or first car.
That's right snake....it was you who exposed our "friend" socala. He snuck away quietly after that expose.
And gosh darn it (as he does his best Gabby Hayes impersonation) I forget what it was all about too. Heck I forgot all about it until you mentioned it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
snake....after telling everyone that they were spending thousands more than he was when buying cars (he never provided a shred of back-up for his claims), he went into some lengthy diatribe about knowing car dealerships accounting techniques/methods and their business models.
He portrayed himself as some sort of accounting "wiz". You called him on it. I'm not an accountant, so I don't know the accounting methods you exposed as bogus. I think either Terry or Audia8q called him out on not knowing the car dealership business models.
With credability shot....he slithered away after that.
Mr T., just out of curiosity, what is the Market price of 06 Siena XLE option package 8 (HU). I am trying to price one out right now. I just want to know if the numbers I am getting are within the market. Please give me the sale price.
"Personally I think the 4Runner is a much better vehicle for the $$$..."
I concur regarding the relative value of the 4Runners. Out of all the vehicles I have owned (or leased), I would put our '05 4Runner among the highest value per $$ paid. For about $24K (before TTL & doc), we have one very solid go-nearly-anywhere family transporter with a powerful V6, 5sp auto, 17" rims, large disc brakes, auto climate control, stability control, limited slip, trip computer, hitch, tire monitor, fog lights, etc, etc. By that, I believe we are getting several "bells & whistles" standard that typically were not provided (or cost extra) within many other vehicles (SUVs or sedans) near this price range in 2005.
We average about 21mpg around here. No problems, ever. The most shocking thing: We found it quieter at 65mph than our '04 Lexus RX330. The only complaint, which is minor, is that the steering is a little more truck-like than we would prefer, requiring minor adjustments to stay on center along the freeways. Buy, hey, it is a truck!
Seems like the FJ has some of that Scion/Mini thing going on, with the unique look and the bright colors. But underneath the skin, aren't the FJ and 4Runner very similar?
With credibility shot... he slithered away after that.
LOL... you talking about snake or socala4? :P
Well, you guys know more about the business end of dealerships and car sales than I do. But, socala4 had a lot of good ideas on car negotiation strategy that I had not read about here at Edmunds before. Most of his "material" was referenced and linked to authors and books on negotiation strategy. I think it would be a good idea for anyone interested in getting "the best deal" to do a discussion search using his username.
For not liking the guy, you all sure talk about him a lot.
jip...I found the guy to be a fraud. He lifted (plagiarized) nearly everything he stated stated here from carbuyingtips.com. He insulted me and many others on this board.
I know you're a compadre of his. Nothing wrong with that. I don't take issue with you.
Lots of people talk about lots of other people on this site. That doesn't mean one person has credibility over another. But, when someone acted the way he did, towards other Edmunds members....and plagiarized....I think it's a good idea to let others know that the so-called advice he gave is tainted.
Thanks for your honest reply. Here in the mid-Atlantic I see them anywhere from $1700 - $2338 below invoice, including incentives of course.
Yes, I know 07 will have a better engine. However, my Honda lease expires in the beginning of the year, and we all the “market” at that time will be MSRP.
Let's see... that'd be a spread of *gasp* $450 to $1088 (difference), and that's in a whole different REGION lol.
Glad my calculator is working
T
PS: I wouldn't worry about the 3.3/3.5 issue either. Unless you plan on competitively racing your Sienna :surprise: , the difference isn't worth it lol...
Comments
Jsut stay away from those Volkswagens!
Right, including one category that you fell right into. If you service your car at the dealer or do warranty work there, even that "mini" deal worked out just fine for the dealer I'm sure... Saying you'd service there anyway is completely irrelevant. They still get your $$$, and to them, that "mini" deal makes more sense because they do.
Still no comment on what you bought eh??? Could it be that there will be a large AH-HA once we know what it is you feel you did so much better than TMV on?
"Come now, don't kid a kidder. If the only thing that you could generate were mini deals, you'd be out looking for a new job, because even a newbie salesperson can do that"
Who's kidding who? I never said the majority of my deals were mini's, just that I have to take them sometimes in order to hit my objectives. Just like the huge deals aren't the norm either...
Most of my deals will average the same profit. Hint: I never said they ALL did, just MOST of them. Which is why, on average, the spread is less than a few hundred bucks...
T
I would imagine you would like to move out of it, into something more reliable. Best thing to do at this point is to probably trade it. It's going to fetch what it's going to fetch. Any reputable dealer is going to have the wherewithall to either take care of the maladies and put it on their lot, or wholesale it.
I have no idea what it might be worth. I'd shop it at 2-3 dealers to see what they think it's worth. At least, you'll have a ballpark figure to work with to know what the next step is. Good luck & keep us posted.
tj....every once in a while, someone comes in here, makes brash statements about how they save a whole lot more money on a new car than the rest of us "unwashed masses" here can do. We usually don't find out the particulars of their car deals (make, model, year, MSRP, purchase price) to verify the claims.
They come in with a flurry. "Educate" us. Then disappear when quizzed on the particulars.
A typical dealership generates welll over half of its revenue from the service side of the dealership. Well over half of the revenue left over comes from used cars sales.
New car sales is a very small portion of the revenue stream for a dealership.
Some car dealerships even run the new car side at very close to break even. As long as the new car side can break even the rest of the dealership will make money.
Same make though? ACV or Trade Allowance?
If I have a customer on a car and we're working from a high starting point, I can show more for a trade than even I think it's actually worth. This happens quite often, especially on used cars.
If you really want to know ACV (Actual Cash Value) for a trade and not just an allowance, you have to compare it to the exact same car.
There are many people on this board that will scoff at paying $1500 over invoice (as you did on your BMW). While you and I know that that's actually a pretty good deal, there are some people convinced that a penny over invoice is far too much.
Could you have gotten a better deal if you waited? Probably.
Me too (I paid $593.00 over invoice... i.e. STICKER on my car lol... :surprise: ), and I work for the dealer
It was the market on the car.
What we own it for is irrelevent...
T
what one person does is never indicative of the masses...which is why salespeople have a better view of how people buy cars than one person does...
as always, just my two cents...
-thene
that being said, i am sure they won't sell it for that price, but it sure gives them plenty of room to move, doesnt it?
and the certification adds a little bit of value to the mix...
just my thoughts...
-thene
Are huge rebates on overpriced cars really a "good deal"? Nupe.
Are big asking prices followed by big discounts on used cars a "good deal" either? Nupe.
But they sure make the deal consumate easier. Same basic principle involved on both...
The illusion of a good deal is a very powerful thing. Look at half-off sales at department stores :P
T
All that said, I've had as much as a $6K swing in trade value on a car going from one dealer to the next. It was a hard to pigeon hole sports car. But, one dealer wanted to put it on his lot. The other one (the low ball) was only willing to give well under Manhiem numbers on it. That was also the dealer that wanted more for his new car, too.
You aren't going to buy a new BMW 3 series for invoice....plain and simple. You know it. I know it. I don't care who you say you are or what you do (unless you're doing European delivery). Could I have done better? Maybe...maybe not. It wouldn't have amounted to a $100, though. I wasn't willing to "grind" for that $100.
thene...I was thinking the same exact thing as you. I smell (sniff....sniff) a different user name for one of our old friends.
i thought that at first, but the writing style is a bit different...who knows though...people can easily hide on the internet!
Seriously, I agree with the replies, but I also see two issues with this inflated used-car pricing practice:
1) Many would-be customers will be scared away by the high initial asking price, not aware the final price can easily be negotiated much lower.
For example, my co-workers sometimes come to me for car purchase advise. (They know this is a "hobby" to me!) I often promote the possibility of purchasing 2-3 year old vehicles, depending on the situation. They might totally agree. But, lo and behold, a week later they purchase a new model. "We found they could sell us a new '06 model for less than $1K above the price they were asking for a similar '04 model." Too many customers aren't savvy to the fact there is significant negotiating room on most used cars. Others just don't want to haggle.
2) These inflated prices often cause less-informed private sellers to place unreasonable expectations on the price of their own automobile. (As an informed buyer, this is what irritates me!)
In our state, we don't pay sales tax when we purchase an automobile from a private party. So, I'm often looking at this as a strong possibility, before I decide to buy new. Based on my experience, too often a private seller sets his bottom price relatively high, completely based on other advertising he sees in the newspaper and AutoTrader. It's not until he receives a real-value trade-in bid that he comes down to reality!
Well said.
I have never had a customer say "Wow, that's exactly enough for my trade". Everyone thinks their baby is pretty... no one wants to hear their baby is ugly (i.e. worth less than what book in "excellent condition" (which 90% or more people think their car is lol...) plus mileage add, says it's worth).
It's funny, because if we're the FIRST person to appraise someone's trade-in, it usually makes us look like the bad guy. Someone else can get the deal at the same terms, just because the customer had to hear it from someone else.
I'll agree that trade values can differ (sometimes wildly based upon the appraiser), but even when people get "more", they're still probably getting "back (less) of book value".
KBB, Edmunds, NADA, whatever... Are GUIDES. They don't buy cars. We do. If people are unhappy with what dealers offer, by all means, sell it to someone else. We can buy it at auction for the same if not less, and we get to pick the ones we WANT.
T
some people are happy to walk in, pick a car, pay sticker, and move on with their lives.
I won't debate their levels of happiness, but my point was that the spread between the lowest priced and highest priced buyers is a lot more than $200. Since the difference between MSRP and the invoice-minus-incentives-and-rebates price is usually more than $200, I guess we agree.
most people fall in the middle, and end up paying maybe a difference of $1000 from lowest to highest in that middle range.
You're the only one who claimed that it was $1,000. Snakeweasel and Tjw seem to think it's just "a few hundred dollars." You're actually more in agreement with me than you are with them.
and in the end, even if a person knows how to negotiate - the dealer doesn't need to sell you car for what you think is the lowest price if he/she knows they can sell it for more...which in the end, comes down to the market value.
By that definition, every single sale is "market value", whether that price is below invoice or at MSRP for the same car.
If that's true, then maybe we're arguing over semantics. Fine, my goal then is to pay the lowest "market price" possible, even if some people are paying a "market price" that is $1,000 more, $2,000 more or whatever above that.
I don't mind if the dealer makes money on the service work, but it doesn't determine where I buy the car. Where I buy the car and where I have it maintained are not related, so the dealer with the good service department that is conveniently located is going to get my business anyway.
Who's kidding who? I never said the majority of my deals were mini's, just that I have to take them sometimes in order to hit my objectives.
That's fine, but that contradicts your $200 comments. If we are to believe that the only difference that you can extract for a bump on a given car is just $200, after all of that test driving and hard bargaining, then I'd say that you're getting "taps" and not many "bumps".
Based on what rroyce advised when he was around, I made sure I had all service receipts on the front seat. All major (and minor) body work fixed. Deep tread on the tires. And, a detail job done right before I took it to a dealer. In short, any demerit the dealer could possibly give, was removed.
That said, I haven't traded a car in a long time. But, others that I've helped trade, that do the same as above, usually get pretty close to KBB "good" condition. They were usually not trading an albatros, either (like a big SUV).
Any car is only worth what someone else (in this case, a dealer) is willing to give. I don't think I've ever taken a bid for my trade at less than the trade value given by the average of all the usual sources (KBB, NADA, Black Book, etc), though.
but whatever floats your boat...im not gonna change anyone's mind...on these message boards, everyone thinks they are right...just the nature of the beast...
-thene :confuse:
My point is not the difference between the highest priced buyer and the lowest price buy, but of the middle 80%. Sure there is going to be a large difference between that one idiot that pays over sticker and the one lucky guy who stumbles onto the never before offered and never will you see this again in the history of the universe super duper deal.
But then neither of those are at market price, nor are they the norm.
Now the other 80-90% of the buyers will be within a few hundred bucks of an "average.
my goal then is to pay the lowest "market price" possible, even if some people are paying a "market price" that is $1,000 more, $2,000 more or whatever above that.
I would be willing to bet that the lowest "market price" that you pay will not be the lowest price. And I would be willing to bet that your lowest "market price" is within a few hundred $ of that "average" price.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Let's say you're right. If 20% of the sales aren't at the "market price", that means that there would be more than 3 million new cars sold in the US every year that aren't at your definition of market. (There are about 16-17 million new cars sold in the US every year.) I'd rather be one of the one million people, or whatever the number is, who are below market as you define it, than at or above market with the majority.
To get there, you need to know the invoice, holdback and incentives, because that will give you a hint of where the bottom is. It's not the only info that you need, but it is helpful.
I think that everybody understands that there are a few cars that one has to buy at a premium, but there aren't many of those. Usually the cars being sold at a high markup have a perfectly good substitute available so that it isn't even necessary to buy one of these, except for the first-on-the-block kind of buyers (we all know one of these, don't we?) who need to have the Miata/Prius/etc. before everyone else.
Nupe. Sorry, but that doesn't contradict my "couple of hundred bucks" statement AT ALL. I have never said that the only bump I could get was $200. Often times, we get people like you (who start at a LOW figure) who we have to "bump" to get in line with the other 80% of profit averages.
What you neglect to realize, is that not everyone is incapable of being persuaded to pay an average profit.
Just because you don't (or at least think you don't), doesn't mean anything really. The AVERAGE profit on a new car will range a couple of hundred bucks. We may have to do a little "bumping" to get some people there (to an average sized profit), but, as you say, that's why we aren't flipping burgers.
"Where I buy the car and where I have it maintained are not related"
Again... nupe. Realize that MOST people still buy the car at the most "convenient" dealership with regards to where they live. Will the "grinders" drive 50 miles to save $100? Sure. But demographically speaking, we capture the majority of our "local" traffic.
Your reasoning of servicing it there because it's "convenient" to you and nothing else is irrelevant.
You have already paid the dealership far more than your "mini", even if all the work was warrantied, and they won
Still no comment on what you bought eh??? In that case, you'll probably end up paying (or at least making) that dealership a LOT of profit methinks :P
T
Sure you did. If the difference between prices is only "a few hundred dollars", then you apparently are unable to get much out of buyers. Maybe you need new batteries for your calculator? :confuse:
Often times, we get people like you (who start at a LOW figure) who we have to "bump" to get in line with the other 80% of profit averages
That would be tough, being that I don't name the first price. And while I build a "bump" or two into my price, I still end up at a low point.
What you neglect to realize, is that not everyone is incapable of being persuaded to pay an average profit.
I never said this at all. On the contrary, I'm saying that most people pay too much, and that it's possible for them to pay less if they learn the system.
You have already paid the dealership far more than your "mini", even if all the work was warrantied, and they won
You sound like you're just licking your wounds with that comment. I'm sure that the dealership would have preferred to get my service business AND not do the sale at a mini.
And as I pointed out, it just happens to be coincidental that the dealership that sold me the car gets some (not all) of the service business. If their service department sucked, I wouldn't go there for anything at all. I'll buy a car at a dealership that is convenient, and get it serviced where I want to get it serviced. The warranty is good at every dealership, remember?
I'm sorry, but your brothers and sisters just didn't make a lot of money from me, they really didn't. I know that it hurts you to know this, and you keep trying to find some way to prove me wrong, but it's true. I had no trade to steal, no window etching, no clear bra, no financing, no undercoating, just a new car that had no incentives whatsover, rebates, year-end kicker or whatever. Unlike you, I don't have numbers to make, I just have a car to buy on occasion, and it is easy to take advantage of your need to make numbers in order to buy around the bottom. It's very easy, actually.
So what's your commiss on a mini, $50?
I am not saying its anything, I am saying that with anything market price is within a certain range. Is that range the mid 80% of sales or the mid 75% or the mid 99% I am not saying. I am saying you can't take extremes as they are not reflective of the market.
As an example I can buy a can of soup at Kroger for 79 cents or at the Piggly Wiggly for 80 cents of at the safeway for 81 cents or at the quicky mart for 99 cents. The market price for that can of soup runs between 79 and 81 cents, the 99 cents at the quicky mart is an abonomality and a very small percentage of soup being sold.
I'd rather be one of the one million people, or whatever the number is, who are below market as you define it, than at or above market with the majority.
So would I.
To get there, you need to know the invoice, holdback and incentives, because that will give you a hint of where the bottom is. It's not the only info that you need, but it is helpful.
Nope that information will not get you there. You get the the same way you get to be one of those who leave Vegas with more money than you came in with, and thats luck.
Remember that the bottom line that a dealer will sell a car for is what he thinks the next person through the door will pay for it.
That bottom 10% (or 5% or 2% whatever it is) usually stumbles into a deal. Its that guy who knows the owner and gets the car at pure cost. Its the guy that walks in at the end of the month and the dealership is eager to get that one last sale to make bonuses. Its the guy that is willing to take that basic level of car with no options in the baby puke green color thats been sitting on the lot for 6 months. Its the guy who stumbles onto that one loan '06 sitting among a sea of '07's four months into the '07 model year. Its the guy who is willing to take the hail damaged car in order to save some cash. These are the ones that get the "below market" cost.
You walk in with the invoice less holdback and incentives you won't do any better than that middle 80% (or whatever it is) and some of them will do better.
Best to know what the market will allow.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
LOL. If what you are saying about socala4 being back is true, then you guys are in big trouble. He routinely ate your lunches when debating negotiation strategy and car sales... and did so with class, without the need for sarcasm or insults.
There's more to it than that. Every day that a car sits on the lot, it costs more for the dealer to hold it because of the cost of the financing that keeps it on the lot.
Also, by selling that car, the dealership can replace that car with new inventory. It isn't just about margin, it's also about inventory turn.
The old expression, "A bird in hand is better than two in the bush" applies here. The smart bird knows that the salesperson wants every sale possible to make his numbers, and the sales manager wants to make his volume numbers, get his allocations, and so on, which means that they will settle for a low price if that's all they can get out of you. Of course, they'll take more if they can get it -- and they will try to get it -- but they'll settle for less if the car isn't one of the vast majority that aren't in short supply.
ok, "HE" didn't say anything, "She" did. and you're putting words in my mouth. i didn't say "every sale is done at market". im glad you feel the need to prance around telling us all that the salesperson didn't make money off you. makes you feel good i bet.
jip - the backhanded remarks that socala4 would make about the sales profession were far from "classy"...
again, pch, im not gonna feed into this need to be "right" whatever you believe is fine...im not gonna change it...enjoy your life.
-thene :P
the dealer doesn't need to sell you car for what you think is the lowest price if he/she knows they can sell it for more...which in the end, comes down to the market value.
So what you're saying is that if I buy the car from the dealership in an arm-lengths transaction, I paid market value, regardless of the price paid. Even if it's a mini. Right?
Or are you saying that some people can walk in off the street and pay something different from market value? And if they can pay less than market value, however you define it, you'd do all of us car buyers a favor by telling us how we can do that, because a lot of us do like to save money.
Granted but if you were the dealer would you sell the car to you for $500 less or keep it for a couple of more days, pay $10-15 more in costs and sell it for $500 more? Inventory costs are only a few dollars a day and its worth it to sell for more days on down the line.
That only comes into play with a dog of a car that they cannot move, like the base model in baby puke green with the manual transmission and no options. The ones that sit on the lot for months at a time. Not for the cars that are regually turning over that selling to you for hundreds less only gets it off the lot a week earlier.
Also, by selling that car, the dealership can replace that car with new inventory. It isn't just about margin, it's also about inventory turn.
its more complicated than that, you can turn inventory over quickly and lose money, you can turn inventory over slowly and make money. I would bet that Isell sells more cars himself than BR dealership sells. Yet I bet both dealerships are making big bucks.
The thin is its not just inventory turn around but the cost of inventory storage, inventory acquisition costs and gross profit. And between turnover time and gross profit there is a trade off. Increase your gross profit you increase the time it takes to turn over your inventory and visa versa. The trick is not to maximize your gross profit on each individual sale, nor is it to turn over inventory as quickly as possible. The trick is to maximize your total overall profit. That means fine tuning your turn over time and your gross profit per vehicle.
That means that its not important just to turn over inventory. I am sure my local MB dealership can turn over cars really quick by selling them at Chevy prices. But they would lose money very quickly.
That being said if a dealership was reasonably sure they could sell for much more a few days later why sell to you for that much less? In other words they are going to sell it for market unless you stumble onto one of the things I mentioned in an earlier post.
The old expression, "A bird in hand is better than two in the bush" applies here.
So does "haste make waste". The dealer isn't going to rush into a sale just to make a sale if its well below what others are paying for right at this moment.
The smart bird knows that the salesperson wants every sale possible to make his numbers
True but unless its the last few days of the month and they haven't made their numbers they are not going to sell for less than what they have been selling for or expect to sell for in the next few days or weeks. In short if they have a study stream of people paying $18K for a car they are not going to take your offer of $17K. That is unless its 8PM on the last day of the month.
which means that they will settle for a low price if that's all they can get out of you.
correction that means that they will settle for a low price is thats all they can get out of your or the next couple of customers. And thats if they need to make the numbers and if it looks to them like they may not.
You can tap dance your way around it but unless you come across one of those circumstances that I have mentioned your going to be in that 80+% that are going to be within a few hundred bucks of the average.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I did in post #1091, its usually done by luck, knowing someone in the business (and not just the salesman) or buying a car that no one else wants.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
nothing is absolute. you seem to want to make this a black and white argument when there is a lot of gray area involved. when i sold cars, i knew certain cars wouldn't sell for MSRP, so i would give a fair market value offer for the car to the customer when he/she came in. do we sell some for more? yes. do we sell some for less? of course. do the numbers that people come up with depend on market value. most likely.
sure, you may be the worlds best negotiator, and get a much larger discount than the rest of the folks buying that car. sometimes a dealer just has to make a sale. does market value have a play in that? indirectly, yes.
its not a matter of it being only situation A or situation B. there are too many variables that you don't want to see. you are only seeing your side and what you've done with regards to car shopping. until you sit on the other side of the desk, you really can't get a true feeling for what the general population does.
-thene
Sure you did. If the difference between prices is only "a few hundred dollars", then you apparently are unable to get much out of buyers. Maybe you need new batteries for your calculator?"
I'm not sure where the confusion lies, so I'll try one more time. The "bumps" we get don't amount to only $200 just because the average profit spread on a new car is only a couple of hundred doillars.
Let's say I have a customer that wants to buy a car that averages $1500 in profit and he is offering $250. In order to "bump" him up to an average profit, I need to "bump" him how much exactly? And when we do (most of the time... at least to "market" value), he falls right in line with what I've been saying all along.
Check your calculator :confuse:
"I'm sorry, but your brothers and sisters just didn't make a lot of money from me"
Possibly. What is more likely is that if you did really pay substantially below market you had to make some sacrifices. Since you won't tell us what you bought, or how much you paid, I'll just assume:
1) It was over-stocked or distressed merchandise (in which case my "brother or sister" probably made a juicy spiff because you helped them unload it...)
Or
2) You helped them hit a bonus level and they really couldn't care less about what they actually made on the "mini".
We don't do "ugly" deals just for the heck of it...
T
PS: We make $150.00 on the occassion we decide to take a pure "mini". As discussed before, there are usually dozens of mitigating factors, and rarely is it truly a "mini" anyway.
I have nothing to hide, why not share some specifics on your "deal"?
Back to "deals"...I don't think any of us who don't figure the inevitable bump in our offers. I believe we all start lower than what we actually plan to spend.
As far as who makes the first offer, I don't think that matters. The dealer usually starts at MSRP as their first offer. The buyers start below their "bump" number. For most buyers, they know that's how the car buying game goes.
Personally, I try to compress that inevitable back and forth "offer--re-offer". Sometimes I only make one offer. Sometimes, I do the "low offer" figuring in the inevitable bump. It really depends on the make/model of car I'm trying to buy.
If it takes too long, or we're just too far apart in negotiations, I just move on to find a dealership who is willing to get to my number, quicker.
You're Toyota, right? The only thing I can see in your inventory that I'd consider distressed might be a left over Echo. The rest you're going to sell a little above or a little below that "average" we've been speaking about....not thousands. I would think you'd make a bit more on the FJs since they seem to be a hit with the public, too. Corrolas, although not distressed, are being faced with a redesign that has been made public. I would imagine Corollas might offer slim profit margins.
The rest....
Camry--popular but plentiful...very little need to go skinny..average markup...may go skinny to get a unit out the door
Avalons--same as Camries
Yaris--not much markup...may get a dealer to go skinny depending on stock levels
4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra...soft truck market...skinny deals should be available..especially on Tacoma with a redesign on the way.
Land Cruiser--big markups, cult following...heavily discounted but still healthy margins
Am I close (with no research, I'm not sure)?
Your honor, I plead guilty as charged.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The trucks are tough right now, but the FJ does remarkably well, and we are already taking orders from people who are quite aware that the all-new Tundra will be at minimum a little OVER sticker if they want one in the first few months.
Surprisingly, if we still had any Echos we'd probably just use them as loaners for a while, and then sell them for $12995.00 as certified used cars. We don't have any issue at all moving them, they just have to be marketed properly hehe...
Other than that, pretty much spot on
T
I would think FJ's would be distressed just for being FJ's. I know Toyota has the right to make an ugly car but why make so many that yellow color?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Because at $4995.00 over sticker and a lot-life of about 48 hours, a lot of salesmen are paying mortgages because of them :P
I hope the new Tundra is perceived to be just as "ugly" if THAT'S what "ugly" means
T
Over sticker? where? My understanding around here they are going for somewhere between sticker and Invoice (closer to sticker).
But anyhow it just goes to show how many people don't have taste.
There is one yellow one (geez not only ugly but bright yellow) down the street from me. Every time they came home property values drop.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
People are weird, but if they think the FJ is worth it, I'm not going to tell em no :P
T
PS: We have a TRD Edition on the ground and have already had offers of $5000.00 over MSRP on it. We won't sell it for that lol... I too think it's ridiculous, but hey, it's the "market"
That's right snake....it was you who exposed our "friend" socala. He snuck away quietly after that expose.
Is he back?
tj....I agree with you about the FJ. I've had my 4runner for a few years now. Great vehicles (even though mine's for sale).
I can see Echos as loaners. They'd be a good car to resell as CPO (if any dealer would take the time and energy to make the effort). I've driven them as rentals. They're pretty crude. Not something I'd want to cruise around in as a primary vehicle. But, would be a good buy for a teen or first car.
And gosh darn it (as he does his best Gabby Hayes impersonation) I forget what it was all about too. Heck I forgot all about it until you mentioned it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
He portrayed himself as some sort of accounting "wiz". You called him on it. I'm not an accountant, so I don't know the accounting methods you exposed as bogus. I think either Terry or Audia8q called him out on not knowing the car dealership business models.
With credability shot....he slithered away after that.
I concur regarding the relative value of the 4Runners. Out of all the vehicles I have owned (or leased), I would put our '05 4Runner among the highest value per $$ paid. For about $24K (before TTL & doc), we have one very solid go-nearly-anywhere family transporter with a powerful V6, 5sp auto, 17" rims, large disc brakes, auto climate control, stability control, limited slip, trip computer, hitch, tire monitor, fog lights, etc, etc. By that, I believe we are getting several "bells & whistles" standard that typically were not provided (or cost extra) within many other vehicles (SUVs or sedans) near this price range in 2005.
We average about 21mpg around here. No problems, ever. The most shocking thing: We found it quieter at 65mph than our '04 Lexus RX330. The only complaint, which is minor, is that the steering is a little more truck-like than we would prefer, requiring minor adjustments to stay on center along the freeways. Buy, hey, it is a truck!
Seems like the FJ has some of that Scion/Mini thing going on, with the unique look and the bright colors. But underneath the skin, aren't the FJ and 4Runner very similar?
LOL... you talking about snake or socala4? :P
Well, you guys know more about the business end of dealerships and car sales than I do. But, socala4 had a lot of good ideas on car negotiation strategy that I had not read about here at Edmunds before. Most of his "material" was referenced and linked to authors and books on negotiation strategy. I think it would be a good idea for anyone interested in getting "the best deal" to do a discussion search using his username.
For not liking the guy, you all sure talk about him a lot.
I know you're a compadre of his. Nothing wrong with that. I don't take issue with you.
Lots of people talk about lots of other people on this site. That doesn't mean one person has credibility over another. But, when someone acted the way he did, towards other Edmunds members....and plagiarized....I think it's a good idea to let others know that the so-called advice he gave is tainted.
"Market" in the southwest region on 06 Sienna's right now (keep in mind, the 07 get's the 3.5 instead of the 3.3 V6) is fairly soft.
Invoice less whichever incentive you choose is the current going rate IF you can track down a dealer that has one on the ground.
If they have to preference one, figure about 500 over.
Of course, there's a margain of a couple hundred bucks either way
T
Yes, I know 07 will have a better engine. However, my Honda lease expires in the beginning of the year, and we all the “market” at that time will be MSRP.
Let's see... that'd be a spread of *gasp* $450 to $1088 (difference), and that's in a whole different REGION lol.
Glad my calculator is working
T
PS: I wouldn't worry about the 3.3/3.5 issue either. Unless you plan on competitively racing your Sienna :surprise: , the difference isn't worth it lol...