Jipster, socal kept repeating the same mantra so many times some of us just got tired or responding to him/her.
He got the best of nobody.
He had few fans but I guess he had you.
He got called out by snake and he got nailed as others have in the past. I've seen a lot of people just like him come and go in these forums ove the years.
Most likely not on the Sienna (dealer cash). I can check tomorrow when I'm at the office (I can pull any region's incentive sheet).
FYI, if you actually have a rep willing to show you the factory incentive sheet, it will have any dealer cash we are getting printed right along with it.
Delaer cash isn't as hard to find out about as it used to be
I think you will really enjoy the Sienna, IMHO the only other choice is the Odyssey. It's just a matter of preference at that point... I often send customers not buying the Sienna straight to Honda.
I base my numbers on prices posted on www.springfieldtoyota.com and fitzmall.com.
Yes, I like the Odyssey just fine. We currently have the 04 version. The only reason I am considering the Siena XLE package 8 is because for the same price it has power folding side mirrors (my wife scraped the mirror against the side of garage doors three times already), memory seats (so that she doesn’t [non-permissible content removed] at me every time I drive it) and the Bluetooth (she rear ended someone when she was blabbing on the phone).
BTW, do you know if 07 package 8 will have these options?
(my wife scraped the mirror against the side of garage doors three times already)
Tell her to come over to our garage and my wife will show her how to take it off completely (the MIRROR, I know what some of you posters were thinking) like she did on her 95’ Bonneville about 7 years ago.
Don’t have that car anymore, that was her garage in/out practice machine.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
This is great dialogue. Thanks for sharing the inside info on the car biz. Can one of you experts tell me if I am about to make an average deal or one of those really special deals? 07 Honda Pilot EXL 4WD at invoice ($30,580) and $16k for my 1999 landcruiser with 97k miles on it (Carmax offered $12k)? My deal is done verbally but just need to go sign the papers tomorrow and trade cars. I agreed to $299 for mud guards and $79 for a moonroof visor and a $299 doc fee. So of course they are making $600 or so on me, plus I will use their service department. Dealt with the GM (salesman was out) who was super cool and no games. Just chatting in the showroom at the bullpen. Never even sat down but was a looker for 3 weeks and multiple test rides. I was tempted to haggle the accesories but felt he should have some profit as he is deep in my trade?
I was tempted to haggle the accesories but felt he should have some profit as he is deep in my trade?
The buyer is the boss. Since it's your money you can give away as much as you want. I don't know if you got a good deal or not but my buying experience tells me that if you didn't haggle and don't know the bottom line price from doing research, you probably paid too much.
BTW, no dealer is going to give you any more for your trade than it is worth without making up for it somewhere else.
Don't even get me started on Doc Fees.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Thene, you seem to misunderstand much of what I'm saying here. With this --
until you sit on the other side of the desk, you really can't get a true feeling for what the general population does.
I wasn't saying that most do get low prices, I'm saying that they could if they knew what to do. On the contrary, I'm sure that most people pay more than they had to, and that those that did could have saved more than $200.
do we sell some for more? yes. do we sell some for less? of course.
That's also true, and I've said this myself. What the average person does today, and their potential to improve their performance, are two different things, which I thought was the point of this forum topic in the first place.
On the other hand, I'm not going to stay quiet as TJW tries desperately to convince us that negotiating doesn't help. I find it comical that the guy tries to make everyone believe that I must have bought a puke-green Buick with a vinyl roof and plastic seats, just because he doesn't have a decent response to my points.
Sorry, but I bought a desirable car with desirable option packages in a lovely color, and with zero incentives at a price well below what others claim to have paid, with no extras layered in. He seems to be losing sleep over it, but fortunately, I'm not.
I'd check the Incentives & Rebates section of edmunds.com. Dealers are being paid a rebate of $2,500 to move the 2006 models. I agreed to $299 for mud guards and $79 for a moonroof visor and a $299 doc fee. So of course they are making $600 or so on me
my wife scraped the mirror against the side of garage doors three times already
Well at least your wife is parking near the side, mine parks right in the center. Kind of like those idiots that park across the line in the parking lot.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
and im glad you paid less than the rest of the world for your car. i highly doubt tj is losing any sleep over a car he didnt (nor would probably want to) sell.
fairfax....numbers on the Pilot sound good (depnding on the rebates in your area...don't know what area you're in...don't know if there are ANY rebates on the '07s, yet). Can't really know what the LandCruiser will bring since we don't know the condition, options, color, etc. Has the purchasing dealer looked at the LC, yet? Things may change once they get a look at it.
Doc fee seems high (by a couple hundred). They're making a couple of bucks on the accessories, but I wouldn't sweat that.
I don't think anyone here is losing sleep over someone's deal on some kind of car, it's color, or it's options since we don't know any of those particulars.
I agreed to $299 for mud guards and $79 for a moonroof visor and a $299 doc fee. So of course they are making $600 or so on me
I would say that they are making $600 off you on mud flaps, moonroof visor and the doc fee alone.
and $16k for my 1999 landcruiser with 97k miles on it (Carmax offered $12k)?
According to KBB a 1999 Landcruiser with 97K miles on it fully loaded and in excellent condition has a trade in value of $13,875. Now subtract options you don't have and adjust for the fact that your 97K mile Landcruiser is not in excellent condition and you are much less than that. Something just don't smell right with that.
If you pull the trigger on this and go for the deal I wouldn't be surprised if they change the deal on you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sorry, but I bought a desirable car with desirable option packages in a lovely color, and with zero incentives at a price well below what others claim to have paid, with no extras layered in.
But one wonders why you don't pony up and let us know the details.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
i highly doubt tj is losing any sleep over a car he didnt (nor would probably want to) sell.
With all of his footstomping and emoticons, the poor guy seems to be looking for every angle possible to avoid creating the perception that people like him will take a mini in more circumstances than he'd care to admit.
We all know from that Salespersons forum that control is a big deal for him, so none of this drama is surprising. My sales guy was pointing at the window sticker and telling me how these cars are barely discounted, too, but as it turns out, that wasn't quite the truth.
This article from Money Magazine is pretty useful. I don't agree with every word of it, but people interested in saving money will find some decent information in this. http://money.cnn.com/pf/101/lessons/17/page7.html
i bet you can see his footstomping through a computer monitor...
all his emoticons have been smiley faces...doesn't look like he's in a crummy mood by any means.
and in all honesty, salespeople deal with all kinds on a daily basis. if you think tj is sweating over a deal that wasnt his, you are sorely mistaken. heck, if we lose a deal in REAL life, we don't cry over it, we move on. its one deal, we get the next one. for pete's sake!
and graphicguy, thank you, and you are right. first thing i learned as a salesperson is that the customer has the greatest negotiating tool of all...their feet!
Let's steer clear of talking about other members, please. If you have a buying tip to share, that's great. If you hate someone else's buying tip, feel free to counter it without making snide remarks or negative comments about the member (whether present or departed). Thanks!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
thanks kirstie. i'll try to use it. its so frustrating to see people act the way they do sometimes. i should remember that im not gonna change people's minds...so i should just move on :shades:
Here is a question, suppose a member states that a certain way is a great way and that s/he has used it to get great deals. Now suppose other members question if that is truely the best (or even a good) way, is it to much to ask the first member to give details about the deal s/he got? Lacking that detail is it to much to question the validity of the original statement?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Just spoke to an average buyer. He purchased an 06 TL yesterday. He is so proud of himself that he paid under the invoice, and then the details started to come out. He didn’t know that the car has a $2000 factory to dealer incentive. He doesn’t know what interest rate he got. He bought the mop and glow and has no idea how much he paid for it because it was rolled into his monthly payment. He bought extended warranty; he doesn’t know how much he paid for or if it’s AccuraCare or not. Gap insurance, you guessed it no idea how much he paid for it. And drum roll please – “Ding protection package” for only $500. :surprise:
Sure, you can ask. But demand? Nope. Keep beating the question into the ground when it's obvious that a member doesn't care to answer? Nope. Use that fact to then publicly label the member a "troll" or "not credible"? Nope. If that's how you feel after several non-responses, it's best to just use your own personal, built-in "ignore" feature.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I am going to try to get a friend of mine who is an expert on dealership finances to post here. He did a little research into this several years ago and he was the one who told me that a certain percentage of sales (I think it was more than 80% but its been a while since we talked about this) are within 2% of the average selling price (Might have been 1.5% but its been a while since we talked about this).
This means that if 100 sludge mobiles LX with option package 'A' sell for an average $25K at least 80 will go for between $24.5K and $25.5K (or is it $24,625 and $25,375 using the 1.5%?). 10 or less will go for more and 10 or less will go for less.
Of course this does not include the mop and glow, extended warranties and all that other useless stuff dealerships sell.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This means that if 100 sludge mobiles LX with option package 'A' sell for an average $25K at least 80 will go for between $24.5K and $25.5K (or is it $24,625 and $25,375 using the 1.5%?). 10 or less will go for more and 10 or less will go for less.
Your own example indicates a difference among the mid-level deals of $1,000. And if that doesn't include the bottom 10% and top 10%, then we know that the difference between those two extremes is even greater than that.
However if its 1.5% (which I really think is what this guy said) your spread is just a few hundred either side of the average.
And if that doesn't include the bottom 10% and top 10%, then we know that the difference between those two extremes is even greater than that.
Yes but then those are the abnormalities. The top 10% are those that just walk in and pay sticker and the bottom 10% were just lucky buying that one car that the dealership needed to sell at the very end of the month to make their numbers or bought that baby puke green color that no one else wants or that one damaged car that the dealer has to discount. In other words the lucky ones I mentioned earlier.
Again my statement about looking for the market price stands.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I haven't posted on Edmunds in awhile but stumbled on this thread and thought the topic was excellent. Proceeded to read the last 20 or so posts to learn more and got tired of all the arguing, so I thought I'd just post my buying process and let you all tell me what I missed, so I can improve my next buying process.
I bought a 2005 TL in Dec 2004 using this process and it seemed to work well. At the time the TL was beginning the 2nd model year of the current design, so was considered in demand. There were no dealer incentives at the time, however, Acura announced 2.9% interest late in 2004 (I assume to meet year end sales targets) and I took advantage. This had no bearing on my sale price, just a win for me in the total cost of financing.
While researching the "prices paid" posts and comparing to edmunds TMV and also carsdirect.com I discovered a few things that helped me. 1)Selling prices vary by local market conditions, so be willing to travel to get the best deal (I negotiated my besst price and gave the local dealer a chance to match and they weren't even close). 2)Look to negotiate during the end of month/year saleas periods as selling prices appear to go down late in the month. 3)Use the carsdirect.com price to get a ballpark estimate of price versus edmunds TMV which seems to be high in some cases. (I read that carsdirect gets $500 commission for referrals, which suggests you may do even better by taking out this middle man and negotiating on your own). 4)Target larger metro areas with multiple dealers (I bought in Chicago) and obtain web addresses of all dealers (not just those that come up on Edmunds). Send out quote requests by email to all dealers in the region. 5)Read the 'prices paid' section carefully for your specific vehicle of choice to get a truer estimate of current sales prices for your region. Experience says the posts are realistic and in some cases even lower than the prices in #3 above. (Except for those unfortunate few posters that get taken to the cleaners and pay too much). 6)Expect to get a range of prices back in your quote request emails. Pick the top few and negotiate your best price with the 'internet sales manager' via email first and then final stages by phone using info from the multiple quotes as leverage and knowledge from #5 to validate the deal. I forgot to mention this works for a car on the lot, possibly one set to arrive soon, but be willing to be flexible on color. (This doesn't mean you need to get stuck with barf green though). When I showed up at the dealer in Chicago, my 'deal' was done and all I had to do was complete the transaction and drive off in my shiny new car. I was able to get my TL for a couple hundred over invoice at a time when many sources were suggesting sellng prices of 1000-2000 over invoice.
Buicks don't have vinyl seats. You can have nice, durable cloth (you might not like the colors) and great leathers. Bad choice of examples--visit your Lucerne dealer for better info.
wis...yes, nice job. You got a nice price on a nice car.
Want a real eye opener? Go to the Prices Paid forum for the Acrua RL. Very nice cars, well reviewed. But, for some reason, has just not caught on with the buying public.
Some posts there regarding people buying a $50K car for $39K and change.
Yeah but for the RL I would kind of belive it. For some reason people just have a problem buying a High End luxury car like the RL with a V6. They expect it to have a V8 and be a good bit larger.
One of my clients has a RL and he loves it. Seems like a great car but I have never driven it or taken a ride in it.
BR....I agree. At the $50K price point, people expect a V8. But, if you can get a V6, with the power of a V8, does it matter? To some, obviously yes. I've never driven one, either. I'm just going by the reviews, which have been positive.
Acura just can't seem to get the styling right on their flagship. It's been that way for years.
To me, it's not bad looking.
Snake, I do agree with some of the posts in the prices paid forum. But, when there are several people getting deals on the RL, I tend to think there may be some validity.
I know my local Acura dealership has several '06 RLs that have been lingering on their lot for awhile. I pass the dealership to and from home, every day. They're just sitting there.
I have driven and sold several TLs and TSXs. We do a lot of business in used Acuras for some reason even though there is an Acura dealer right down the street. :confuse:
All of those that I have driven have been great cars and I wish acura would offer AWD on all of their models. They seem to be moving towards that goal and I think if they can do that they can make a serious challenge to Audi.
If they can offer all of the things Audi offers, good looks, performance, luxury, high end service but without the sometime inflated Audi cost and without the sometimes questionable Audi reliablity then I think they can do well.
BR....my local Acura dealer is the same way. They don't have much in the way of used Acuras on their lot. Talking to the sales mgr....he says he makes more money on used American iron than he does on used Acuras.
You won't find a used Acrua anything on his lot that's less than 5-6 years old.
I think he's a little "low" on the trade side. Maybe your local Acura dealer is the same. You may be ponying up more in trade dollars than the Acura dealership is.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Hey All, In response to the few responses: The deal went through perfectly today! Never thought I would love a Honda (my other car is an 06 3 series) but it is a pretty cool suv for the family. The Lancruiser was indeed worth $14k but they gave me $16k. I know they made holdback and $600 in fees and accesories. I got the 2007 Pilot EXL for Invoice and no, there are no rebated right now. Yes, the other two dealers in town thought the deal was impossible. Like the other guys said, luck plays a factor I guess. Anybody know why they would give me over $2000 more than trade in value and give me an 07 4wd EXL at invoice? I dealt with the GM of the dealership while my sales guy was out (I know, poor form) but when a person is ready to buy... Anyway, I feel good about the deal and could have done better or worse but at least this part time job of car shopping is over.
-Educate yourself about the car before you ever enter the dealership. Much of what you'll be told at the dealership won't necessarily even be accurate, and you're better off reading other sources, such as the car magazines, Edmunds and Consumer Reports, rather than depending on the dealership for your information.
-Make sure that you research not just invoice, but also incentives payable to the customer and the dealership. You may not learn about all of the incentives, but still, it's worth researching this.
-Don't fall in love with a specific type of car. If you insist on having a certain make and model, and you convince yourself that nothing else will do, the dealership will use that to their advantage and against you, and you will find it more difficult to walk away if and when you need to.
-During your research process, be sure to have some seperate days that you dedicate strictly to test driving, without buying anything. Don't let new car smell sway your decision making.
-I also refer to the auto broker websites, and try to beat those prices. If an auto broker can sell a car to me for $X, then it's fair to assume that I can buy it on my own for at least $300-500 less than that.
-I do look at prices paid forums and similar sources, and try to beat those prices. Rather than aim for the middle, I try to undercut everyone posting, and might settle for matching those who paid the least.
-Understand your needs and wants, but don't make them obvious to the dealership. For example, if color is very important to you, don't be too quick to share that information, as you will set yourself up for paying more than you need to as the dealer will attempt to use "scarcity" and "supply and demand" as justifications for charging your more. Instead, scan the inventory choices, then select the vehicles that interest you without sharing the specific reasons that they appeal to you.
biker....sounds like you did well. I have no problem in dealing with the dealership's GM or SM. I usually do that to begin with. That usually nets a good deal quicker. Enjoy the ride.
I'm in the process of purchasing a Honda Fit Base model Automatic. Been educating myself re: buying tips via Edmunds, etc. Current dealer I am talking with says he can sell me the car for the TMV $15,245 with additional charges for dealer add-on of mud guards for $229 and document fee of $299.
As you know, the Fit is an '07 vehicle. I know I want a Fit. So, I feel like I don't have a lot of negotiating power since there aren't many Fits out there.
Here's my question: Should I go ahead with the deal even though I think the add-ons and doc. fees are just for profit or hold out for a better deal?
suze....there's about a $600 swing between MSRP and invoice. No incentives. It's a popular car, too. Not a lot of room to play with.
I'd offer $15K....even. Tell the dealer you don't want the mud flaps. Also, tell them you'll go no higher than $50 for the doc fee. What's the worst thing the dealer can say? No? Walk away and see if they call you back if they don't counter offer something better.
I'd also visit another Honda dealer just to see what their stock situation is on the Fit...also to check out their offers.
I'd also tell the dealer you're looking at other cars....like the Toyota Yaris. And, that even though you're in buy mode now, you're willing to go to other Honda dealers.
Current dealer I am talking with says he can sell me the car for the TMV $15,245 with additional charges for dealer add-on of mud guards for $229 and document fee of $299.
Well you are being overcharged for the mud flaps and Doc fees. My question is what is the sticker price for the car? Sound like if you adjust the price of the mud guards and the doc fee you might be back at sticker.
Here's my question: Should I go ahead with the deal even though I think the add-ons and doc. fees are just for profit or hold out for a better deal?
Sorry the only person who is qualified to answer that question is you. If you want the car you either have to pay for it or wait until the supply meets the demand (or visa versa). If you want it bad enough then do it, but try to negotiate those additional costs. If you can wait then I would wait.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'd offer $15K....even. Tell the dealer you don't want the mud flaps. Also, tell them you'll go no higher than $50 for the doc fee. What's the worst thing the dealer can say? No?
I have a feeling with the Fit right now that won't work. Maybe in a few months but not right now. To many "I want that right now" people out there with to few cars to feed them for a tactic like that to work.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Comments
He got the best of nobody.
He had few fans but I guess he had you.
He got called out by snake and he got nailed as others have in the past. I've seen a lot of people just like him come and go in these forums ove the years.
Good riddence!
FYI, if you actually have a rep willing to show you the factory incentive sheet, it will have any dealer cash we are getting printed right along with it.
Delaer cash isn't as hard to find out about as it used to be
I think you will really enjoy the Sienna, IMHO the only other choice is the Odyssey. It's just a matter of preference at that point... I often send customers not buying the Sienna straight to Honda.
Can't go wrong either way
T
Yes, I like the Odyssey just fine. We currently have the 04 version. The only reason I am considering the Siena XLE package 8 is because for the same price it has power folding side mirrors (my wife scraped the mirror against the side of garage doors three times already), memory seats (so that she doesn’t [non-permissible content removed] at me every time I drive it) and the Bluetooth (she rear ended someone when she was blabbing on the phone).
BTW, do you know if 07 package 8 will have these options?
Its kind of like when you are with a group of people in a social situation and one of them says something that you know is completly false.
Some of these people you know well, some of them you kind of know and some are complete strangers.
Your could either argue with the person about what they said or you could just ignore it and move on.
Depending on the situation and how well you know the person you might just ignore the statement and try to move the discussion some where else.
Someone some where mentioned that Corolla sales are up 25%.
Ehh not really correct.
October 2006 YTD 2006
COROLLA 24,642 26,870 -4.6 330,995 292,296 13.2
Down 4.6% in october and up 13.2 percent for the year.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061101/law108.html?.v=45
Tell her to come over to our garage and my wife will show her how to take it off completely (the MIRROR, I know what some of you posters were thinking) like she did on her 95’ Bonneville about 7 years ago.
Don’t have that car anymore, that was her garage in/out practice machine.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The buyer is the boss. Since it's your money you can give away as much as you want. I don't know if you got a good deal or not but my buying experience tells me that if you didn't haggle and don't know the bottom line price from doing research, you probably paid too much.
BTW, no dealer is going to give you any more for your trade than it is worth without making up for it somewhere else.
Don't even get me started on Doc Fees.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
until you sit on the other side of the desk, you really can't get a true feeling for what the general population does.
I wasn't saying that most do get low prices, I'm saying that they could if they knew what to do. On the contrary, I'm sure that most people pay more than they had to, and that those that did could have saved more than $200.
do we sell some for more? yes. do we sell some for less? of course.
That's also true, and I've said this myself. What the average person does today, and their potential to improve their performance, are two different things, which I thought was the point of this forum topic in the first place.
On the other hand, I'm not going to stay quiet as TJW tries desperately to convince us that negotiating doesn't help. I find it comical that the guy tries to make everyone believe that I must have bought a puke-green Buick with a vinyl roof and plastic seats, just because he doesn't have a decent response to my points.
Sorry, but I bought a desirable car with desirable option packages in a lovely color, and with zero incentives at a price well below what others claim to have paid, with no extras layered in. He seems to be losing sleep over it, but fortunately, I'm not.
I agreed to $299 for mud guards and $79 for a moonroof visor and a $299 doc fee. So of course they are making $600 or so on me
No, they're grossing more than that. To guesstimate their gross, don't forget to include the holdback, which is 3% of MSRP. Click on this Edmunds link for more information about how this works"
Well at least your wife is parking near the side, mine parks right in the center. Kind of like those idiots that park across the line in the parking lot.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
and im glad you paid less than the rest of the world for your car. i highly doubt tj is losing any sleep over a car he didnt (nor would probably want to) sell.
get over it.
Doc fee seems high (by a couple hundred). They're making a couple of bucks on the accessories, but I wouldn't sweat that.
Good luck and let us know how things turn out.
I don't think anyone here is losing sleep over someone's deal on some kind of car, it's color, or it's options since we don't know any of those particulars.
I would say that they are making $600 off you on mud flaps, moonroof visor and the doc fee alone.
and $16k for my 1999 landcruiser with 97k miles on it (Carmax offered $12k)?
According to KBB a 1999 Landcruiser with 97K miles on it fully loaded and in excellent condition has a trade in value of $13,875. Now subtract options you don't have and adjust for the fact that your 97K mile Landcruiser is not in excellent condition and you are much less than that. Something just don't smell right with that.
If you pull the trigger on this and go for the deal I wouldn't be surprised if they change the deal on you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But one wonders why you don't pony up and let us know the details.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
With all of his footstomping and emoticons, the poor guy seems to be looking for every angle possible to avoid creating the perception that people like him will take a mini in more circumstances than he'd care to admit.
We all know from that Salespersons forum that control is a big deal for him, so none of this drama is surprising. My sales guy was pointing at the window sticker and telling me how these cars are barely discounted, too, but as it turns out, that wasn't quite the truth.
This article from Money Magazine is pretty useful. I don't agree with every word of it, but people interested in saving money will find some decent information in this. http://money.cnn.com/pf/101/lessons/17/page7.html
all his emoticons have been smiley faces...doesn't look like he's in a crummy mood by any means.
and in all honesty, salespeople deal with all kinds on a daily basis. if you think tj is sweating over a deal that wasnt his, you are sorely mistaken. heck, if we lose a deal in REAL life, we don't cry over it, we move on. its one deal, we get the next one. for pete's sake!
and graphicguy, thank you, and you are right. first thing i learned as a salesperson is that the customer has the greatest negotiating tool of all...their feet!
-thene
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-thene
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thanks kirstie. i'll try to use it. its so frustrating to see people act the way they do sometimes. i should remember that im not gonna change people's minds...so i should just move on :shades:
-thene
Hey !!! I'm the one that said that first.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
$200 difference my foot.
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I agree, and we all know this guy ain't the exception. Not by a long shot.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I am going to try to get a friend of mine who is an expert on dealership finances to post here. He did a little research into this several years ago and he was the one who told me that a certain percentage of sales (I think it was more than 80% but its been a while since we talked about this) are within 2% of the average selling price (Might have been 1.5% but its been a while since we talked about this).
This means that if 100 sludge mobiles LX with option package 'A' sell for an average $25K at least 80 will go for between $24.5K and $25.5K (or is it $24,625 and $25,375 using the 1.5%?). 10 or less will go for more and 10 or less will go for less.
Of course this does not include the mop and glow, extended warranties and all that other useless stuff dealerships sell.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Footnote my foot. Always trying to blame someone else, aren't ya?
No matter, I got ya figured out.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It's actually almost EXACTLY 80% of sales that fall into a 2% range of profit. You are correct.
T
Your own example indicates a difference among the mid-level deals of $1,000. And if that doesn't include the bottom 10% and top 10%, then we know that the difference between those two extremes is even greater than that.
And if that doesn't include the bottom 10% and top 10%, then we know that the difference between those two extremes is even greater than that.
Yes but then those are the abnormalities. The top 10% are those that just walk in and pay sticker and the bottom 10% were just lucky buying that one car that the dealership needed to sell at the very end of the month to make their numbers or bought that baby puke green color that no one else wants or that one damaged car that the dealer has to discount. In other words the lucky ones I mentioned earlier.
Again my statement about looking for the market price stands.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I bought a 2005 TL in Dec 2004 using this process and it seemed to work well. At the time the TL was beginning the 2nd model year of the current design, so was considered in demand. There were no dealer incentives at the time, however, Acura announced 2.9% interest late in 2004 (I assume to meet year end sales targets) and I took advantage. This had no bearing on my sale price, just a win for me in the total cost of financing.
While researching the "prices paid" posts and comparing to edmunds TMV and also carsdirect.com I discovered a few things that helped me.
1)Selling prices vary by local market conditions, so be willing to travel to get the best deal (I negotiated my besst price and gave the local dealer a chance to match and they weren't even close).
2)Look to negotiate during the end of month/year saleas periods as selling prices appear to go down late in the month.
3)Use the carsdirect.com price to get a ballpark estimate of price versus edmunds TMV which seems to be high in some cases. (I read that carsdirect gets $500 commission for referrals, which suggests you may do even better by taking out this middle man and negotiating on your own).
4)Target larger metro areas with multiple dealers (I bought in Chicago) and obtain web addresses of all dealers (not just those that come up on Edmunds). Send out quote requests by email to all dealers in the region.
5)Read the 'prices paid' section carefully for your specific vehicle of choice to get a truer estimate of current sales prices for your region. Experience says the posts are realistic and in some cases even lower than the prices in #3 above. (Except for those unfortunate few posters that get taken to the cleaners and pay too much).
6)Expect to get a range of prices back in your quote request emails. Pick the top few and negotiate your best price with the 'internet sales manager' via email first and then final stages by phone using info from the multiple quotes as leverage and knowledge from #5 to validate the deal. I forgot to mention this works for a car on the lot, possibly one set to arrive soon, but be willing to be flexible on color. (This doesn't mean you need to get stuck with barf green though). When I showed up at the dealer in Chicago, my 'deal' was done and all I had to do was complete the transaction and drive off in my shiny new car.
I was able to get my TL for a couple hundred over invoice at a time when many sources were suggesting sellng prices of 1000-2000 over invoice.
That's my story, any suggestions?
tidester, host
Buicks don't have vinyl seats. You can have nice, durable cloth (you might not like the colors) and great leathers. Bad choice of examples--visit your Lucerne dealer for better info.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Want a real eye opener? Go to the Prices Paid forum for the Acrua RL. Very nice cars, well reviewed. But, for some reason, has just not caught on with the buying public.
Some posts there regarding people buying a $50K car for $39K and change.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
One of my clients has a RL and he loves it. Seems like a great car but I have never driven it or taken a ride in it.
Acura just can't seem to get the styling right on their flagship. It's been that way for years.
To me, it's not bad looking.
Snake, I do agree with some of the posts in the prices paid forum. But, when there are several people getting deals on the RL, I tend to think there may be some validity.
I know my local Acura dealership has several '06 RLs that have been lingering on their lot for awhile. I pass the dealership to and from home, every day. They're just sitting there.
All of those that I have driven have been great cars and I wish acura would offer AWD on all of their models. They seem to be moving towards that goal and I think if they can do that they can make a serious challenge to Audi.
If they can offer all of the things Audi offers, good looks, performance, luxury, high end service but without the sometime inflated Audi cost and without the sometimes questionable Audi reliablity then I think they can do well.
You won't find a used Acrua anything on his lot that's less than 5-6 years old.
I think he's a little "low" on the trade side. Maybe your local Acura dealer is the same. You may be ponying up more in trade dollars than the Acura dealership is.
littlewonder, "Documentation Fees" #465, 10 Nov 2006 10:36 am
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In response to the few responses:
The deal went through perfectly today! Never thought I would love a Honda (my other car is an 06 3 series) but it is a pretty cool suv for the family. The Lancruiser was indeed worth $14k but they gave me $16k. I know they made holdback and $600 in fees and accesories. I got the 2007 Pilot EXL for Invoice and no, there are no rebated right now. Yes, the other two dealers in town thought the deal was impossible. Like the other guys said, luck plays a factor I guess. Anybody know why they would give me over $2000 more than trade in value and give me an 07 4wd EXL at invoice? I dealt with the GM of the dealership while my sales guy was out (I know, poor form) but when a person is ready to buy... Anyway, I feel good about the deal and could have done better or worse but at least this part time job of car shopping is over.
-Educate yourself about the car before you ever enter the dealership. Much of what you'll be told at the dealership won't necessarily even be accurate, and you're better off reading other sources, such as the car magazines, Edmunds and Consumer Reports, rather than depending on the dealership for your information.
-Make sure that you research not just invoice, but also incentives payable to the customer and the dealership. You may not learn about all of the incentives, but still, it's worth researching this.
-Don't fall in love with a specific type of car. If you insist on having a certain make and model, and you convince yourself that nothing else will do, the dealership will use that to their advantage and against you, and you will find it more difficult to walk away if and when you need to.
-During your research process, be sure to have some seperate days that you dedicate strictly to test driving, without buying anything. Don't let new car smell sway your decision making.
-I also refer to the auto broker websites, and try to beat those prices. If an auto broker can sell a car to me for $X, then it's fair to assume that I can buy it on my own for at least $300-500 less than that.
-I do look at prices paid forums and similar sources, and try to beat those prices. Rather than aim for the middle, I try to undercut everyone posting, and might settle for matching those who paid the least.
-Understand your needs and wants, but don't make them obvious to the dealership. For example, if color is very important to you, don't be too quick to share that information, as you will set yourself up for paying more than you need to as the dealer will attempt to use "scarcity" and "supply and demand" as justifications for charging your more. Instead, scan the inventory choices, then select the vehicles that interest you without sharing the specific reasons that they appeal to you.
As you know, the Fit is an '07 vehicle. I know I want a Fit. So, I feel like I don't have a lot of negotiating power since there aren't many Fits out there.
Here's my question: Should I go ahead with the deal even though I think the add-ons and doc. fees are just for profit or hold out for a better deal?
I'd offer $15K....even. Tell the dealer you don't want the mud flaps. Also, tell them you'll go no higher than $50 for the doc fee. What's the worst thing the dealer can say? No? Walk away and see if they call you back if they don't counter offer something better.
I'd also visit another Honda dealer just to see what their stock situation is on the Fit...also to check out their offers.
I'd also tell the dealer you're looking at other cars....like the Toyota Yaris. And, that even though you're in buy mode now, you're willing to go to other Honda dealers.
Good luck....let us know how it turns out.
Well you are being overcharged for the mud flaps and Doc fees. My question is what is the sticker price for the car? Sound like if you adjust the price of the mud guards and the doc fee you might be back at sticker.
Here's my question: Should I go ahead with the deal even though I think the add-ons and doc. fees are just for profit or hold out for a better deal?
Sorry the only person who is qualified to answer that question is you. If you want the car you either have to pay for it or wait until the supply meets the demand (or visa versa). If you want it bad enough then do it, but try to negotiate those additional costs. If you can wait then I would wait.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have a feeling with the Fit right now that won't work. Maybe in a few months but not right now. To many "I want that right now" people out there with to few cars to feed them for a tactic like that to work.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D