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Dealer vs. independent shop?
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If you rebuilt engines for a living, about the last thing you'd do is flush out an old engine. Also, if you knew engines really well, you'd probably know which ones were very durable, so that additives, synthetics, etc., were a complete waste of money on certain types. (the trick? Use them on highly stressed engines only).
I rebuild/overhaul engines and I would NEVER allow an engine flush on one of my engines.
I have seen many engines AFTER the engine flushes and I can tell you that quite a few of them weren't pretty. Most were engines that hadn't seen proper maintenance and some oil change place convinced the people that it would clean them out.
It cleaned them out all right. Their money that is.
As has been stated several times, the only proper way to flush an engine is to pull the pan and flush the engine out.
But.......
If you are going to pull the pan, you might as well go throught the engine, bearings and all.
If the engine is in that bad of shape that it needs an engine flush, you have other problems that need to be addressed.
I like wtd44's engine flush. LOL!
Old school trans guys rarely recommend a reverse flow flush, because the system is designed to have the fluid go one direction and things that get caught in that direction are best left where they are. Dislodging the contaminates can often cause them to go places they were not designed to go and damage certain parts.
Plus, I have never thought NOT dropping the pan was a good idea.
However, flushing the trans cooler or the trans side of the radiator IS a good idea. But only the cooler.
To put a different perspective on it, ABS systems on todays vehicles you do not want to push back the caliper pistons into the calipers without opening the bleeder screw, so the fluid doesn't backflush through the ABS valve. If the fluid backflushes, there is a chance of contaminates going through the ABS valve and lodging in it.
Once contaminates lodge in the ABS valve, the system sees a fault and the valve is no longer operational.
So, if you use the same train of thought, you can see why some mechanics, including myself, see the trans back flushing as not a good idea.
Anyway, that's my long winded opinion.
Keeping the cooler flushed is a whole other idea and a good one, since the main killer of transmissions is not dirt but HEAT.
I have a 2000 Yukon 2WD with the 5.3L engine. Very good vehicle; I've owned it since it was new; it still looks new; and it has 90K miles.
I took it to the dealer the other day because it needs the intermediate steering shaft (it's had some steering wobble/rattle since it was brand new almost); and also because I was getting some rattling in the exhaust system somewhere; only after it warms up to full operating temps, and even then only at certain times (like taking off from a stop).
The dealer calls me back and informs me that he can "get me back on the road" for a measly $2,000. I just about dropped the phone. $2,000? I didn't want the engine replaced, fer cryin' out loud! He said there was an intake manifold leak (verrrry serious!), and "since the manifold will be off the truck......" he wanted to do a cooling system power flush, transmission power flush, replace the plug wires, spark plugs, and replace some of the exhuast hangers/o-rings or something like that (for the exhaust rattle). That all added up to a whopping $2,000!
I told them thanks but no thanks; and I picked it up. I'm going to my local independant garage that my Dad uses and trusts; and hopefully I'll get some honest advice there.
But just as a ballpark estimate; what should I expect to pay for: replacing intake manifold gasket, trans fluid filter and change; coolant change (if it's even necessary?); oem plug wires; oem plugs; and the intermediate steering shaft?
The intake manifold gasket should pay between 3 and 4 hours, plus parts - the tune up should be under $200, I'm not a fan of flushing anything, except a cooling system, and yours should have Dexcool and be good for 150k...
upper, 1.5 hours
lower, 2.9 hours
add 1.0 hours w/AC
Coolant should be flushed every 3 years. Permanent doesn't mean forever, it means it can stay in year round. After 3 years the anti-corrosion additives have signed off. Usually runs about $75 here.
Brake fluid should be flushed every 3 years max. Expect 1 hour labour plus fluid. For more info read this:
http://www.troublecodes.net/articles/brkfld.shtml
At 90K miles the plugs and wires are due for replacement. Use ACDelco only.
DON'T get the trans power flushed, but have a fluid and filter change.
I was thinking that all of this should come in the neighborhood of $500 to $800, and Mr Shiftright confirmed that. I guess the only "real" expense is the labor involved in the intake manifold gasket job. Everything else...plug wires, plugs, trans fluid change, fixing an exhaust rattle, etc...is all fairly normal routine maintenance stuff.
Is there anything about replacing the intake manifold gaskets that I should be concerned about going to an Indie shop versus a dealer; or is it a straight forward repair?
BUT - Understand that I saved for this one for about 2 years, and I ONLY wanted a bright red one with a silver bottom (which I had to special order from my dealer). Plus I wanted 2WD; and all the dealers around here only stock 4WD.
Now you can't even get a Tahoe/Yukon in bright red; so I'm out of luck in that regard. And the mega-payment (even with 7K cash down) was no fun. I paid it off about 3 months ago and it is SO nice not to have a truck payment anymore.
There really isn't much out there that I like besides the Tahoe/Yukon. Suburban is too big. I like the BMW X5, but it's too small, and pricey even if you buy a used one. Same for the Mercedes ML series. I don't like Expeditions. I like the Toyota Land Cruiser, but they cost really stupid money, even used. $40K for a USED TLC is just too much. So I guess I'll be driving my "old" 2000 bright-red Yukon for the foreseeable future
Now that I've done a bit of browsing; I see that GM recommends a "grease kit" to grease the shaft rather than replace it. Which one would you mechanic guys recommend? Greasing it with a quarter's worth of grease sure sounds cheaper than replacing the shaft; but would it just end up needing replaced anyway eventually?
Has the intermediate steering shaft been lubricated previously?
I'll have my local repair guy grease it and see how that works; then we'll worry about replacing it if that doesn't fix it. Heck, I've been putting up with it for almost 5 years now
I took my car to one of the Brakes Plus locations here in Denver and experienced the most straight on attempt to overcharge/overprice/underestimate and overestimate at the same time I've ever seen.
When I took it in, i complained that the steering wheel pulsates when brakes are applied at high speed and about the squeaking noise. (I've talked a lot about it in Rodeo forum. It's coming from the rear when you back up with wheels turned WITHOUT brakes applied). I also suggested the take an extra look at rear brakes for that noise. When they called back they said that the front rotors need to be turned (well, duh...) and, therefore, the pads need to be replaced for $159 + $50 rotors + $50 grease packs. (dealer will do it for LESS than that). They didn't find anything wrong with the rear brakes but he said that he didn't hear any sounds coming from it. I asked him if he got a chance to test drive it and he said no. Hmm... Getting frustrated, I asked him to put it back together and test drive it and let me know. After two hours, I called him myself (he, apparently, decided he doesn't need to call me back) and he said that he did hear the sound but didn't know where it was coming from. He then said I misunderstood him and he actually did test drive the truck in the first place. GRRRRR....
His guess was it might be coming from e-brake system, but they didn't check it out as they normally don't do it as part of the brake inspection as it's unlikely that it will go bad. When asked if it's possible that the drums or the pads in that system are worn, he said “Yes, but unlikely.” When asked if it may be not aligned, he told me the same thing, while still admitting that's the only possible place he could think off the sound might be coming from. He refused to check it as, as he claimed, they didn't have enough time and too many cars in line (they had my truck there for 4 hours at that time).
When I picked it up and looked at the “suggestions” that were listed in the estimate I noticed they “suggested” I change the shocks and serpentine belt. The belt didn't surprise me too much (except the price tag on it was $115: $50 labor and $65 parts), but shocks did. When asked, he explained that shocks are fine, not leaking or anything but “they” recommend replacing them. I wondered who “they” and his answer was: “Dealers and other such places”. I don't remember seeing “replace shocks” in my maintenance schedule for $60K mi. Additionally, i don't remember seeing it in ANY scheduled maintenance plan for any vehicle.
So, basically, the results of my brake inspection are as follows: Brakes Plus didn't feel like messing too much with the brakes to check it out completely even though the possible problem area was determined.
They found a $300 problem(front brakes) which the found sufficient to pay for their time.
They tried to sell me unnecessary parts with the most ridiculous reasons.
AND (I applaud them for this!) the overshot dealers prices by a good portion on the belt. (dealer wants $30 for the belt and $50 labor) and either overshot or, at lest, matched the dealer on the brakes. Of course, they claimed, their pads are much better than what I can get from Isuzu.
For one thing, a lot of the chains know they will never see you again and the will try to sell you everything they can think of.
The brake pads they say are "much better" are often made of very hard material so they will last long enough to get them through their warranty period. The downside will be squeaky brakes.
One other thing he said was that the power flushing equipment was quite expensive, and there may have been some pressure to get more money out of that investment.
If they can't provide a quote, then they can get your vehicle in, tear it apart and charge you what they want. Not a good practice.
I would shy away from that shop and find another shop who can provide a quote.
Below are the OEM part numbers and prices from the dealer. So, the price may be about $20-$25 for the seal and another $5 for the gasket.
Add about $50 for incidentals, like sealer, trans oil engine oil and filter and waste disposal. MY recommendation is to find a shop that can give you a firm quote. If they can't give you a decent estimate, then they may not have the info available to do the job, which may lead to trouble later on.
Part OEM Part Price
Crankshaft Main Bearing Seal
33 - Rear Main Oil Seal MD372250 $16.87
35 - Rear Main Oil Seal Case Gasket MD183242 $2.28
Crankshaft Main Bearing Seal Replace
Manual Trans B 4.6 hours Includes: R&R Transaxle.
Auto Trans B 4.6 hours Includes: R&R Transaxle.
Remove transmission, clutch assembly and flywheel or flex plate, as equipped.
Remove rear oil seal case and separate: oil seal, case and separator, if equipped.
Drive in oil seal from inside of case, using suitable tool. Ensure the oil seal plate fits properly in the inner contact surface of the seal case, if equipped.
Install separator with the oil hole facing the bottom of the case, if equipped.
Apply engine oil to oil seal lips.
Install the oil seal case in the cylinder block.
I have the 4 speed automatic. Thanks for the information. This leads to another question. My dad works as a bus driver for the public school system. He told me this morning that the head mechanic there said he could do the job for $300 as a side job. Not including parts and supplies I would provide. Does that sound reasonable? labor rate at independents here are about $70/hour.
And since he works on buses, his attention to detail is probably far superior to other mechanics, as he is held personally liable for things he misses on those vehicles.
It is a miserable job and I would charge at least $85/hour minimum for that job, plus parts.
Do yourself a favor and get the seal and gasket from the dealer. You will thank yourself later for it.
Also, you may need a "speedi-sleeve", "wear ring" or what ever you want to call it. It is a sleeve that goes over the end of the crankshaft where the seal rides. They are usually about $20, but if the old seal has worn a groove in the seal ride of the crankshaft, it will be necessary.
$11. He accepted $275 for the job. However, when he replaced the rear main seal. he showed me that he didn't have to pry out the old seal. it was "popped out" what would cause that? the old seal wasn't torn or cracked. He put in the new dealer part seal in that I bought. I test drove the car with him and He forgot to reconnect the speedometer but that was no biggie. He reconnected it when we got back and the oil leak is gone. I think I saved a couple hundred dollars this way. It took him about 6.5 hours to do the entire job.
Sounds like a good deal all around.
After looking at my last post, I probably need to clarify the comment I made about his attention to detail is probably far superior to other mechanics.
I meant no disrespect to any other mechanics. Just that a bus mechanic is liable for anything he misses or makes a mistake on that would cause anyone to get hurt. So if he has been at that job for quite some time, he has no choice but to be very meticulous.
Did I back pedal good enough? ; )
I missed the part about the seal popped out.
Alcan gave you great advice.
If the PCV valve or hose is plugged, it will create crankcase pressure which would push the seal or seals out. I would check to make sure that the hose to the PCV (if equipped) has vacuum to it and replace the PCV valve.
Wow, those salesmen sure have been trained on how to intimidate the new car owners into dealer maintenance.
However, if that lets you sleep at night then stick with it.
My wife's 01 Impala was having a problem shifting from Reverse to Neutral and the intake gasket was leaking coolant.
No problem, there are TSBs on both problems and it is under warranty.
So, the vehicle goes in, they replace the intake gasket and don't even flush the cooling system, even though it sludged up. Terrific, more work for me.
They drop the transmission pan and find no metal and then call me and tell me that all it need is a flush....$270. HUH???
Yeah, I don't think so Bud.
So I tell them if they aren't going to do anything about the trans, change the trans fluid and call it good.
So, my wife picks up the car and calls me and says the transmission is "growling". As a typical husband, I asked what she meant by it is "growling". And of course her reply is that it is growling!!!
Ok, so not much I can do about it until afternoon.
So that afternoon, my son checked the trans fluid and started filling the transmission.
After 4 1/2 quarts, it finally started showing on the dipstick.
So I get home and the transmission is slipping worse than it was and mysteriously, the steering wheel is off center. HUH??
Which of course, they never touched the steering or hit anything, even though the underside says different.
I called the dealer and looked at the repair order, which showed they only charged us for 4 quarts of trans fluid. And no one thought this was odd?
So now, the car has to go back Tuesday, which I am confident that they will fix the transmission problem. NOT!
As a mechanic, I have never been so disgusted with this industry. Most of my career in this industry has been helping folks and providing a resource for folks. To see, first hand, what folks go through (even though I know better), is totally disgusting to me.
The worst thing is, I send several vehicles there from a fleet for work. Guess that is going to change. I have to wonder if they realize how many customers they will lose because of their dishonesty and incompetence.
I agree though, for about everything else crazy to use a dealer, paper hassles, appointments, lousy service rep, poor/sloppy repairs and huge prices make them undesirable.
The car went back in, because the transmission was starting to slip worse.
I put a data logger on the vehicle and ran it, so I could show that the rpms were raising, while the vehicle speed was not.
The transmission fluid was black as coal and they told me all they could do was flush the transmission for $230, because there isn't any trouble codes. HUH??
I must have stupid written on my forehead.
30K on the trans fluid and it is black. There is a problem. These warranty companies are a joke.
I don't think all dealers are bad. I know some very good ones, but they are getting rarer and rarer. They seem so profit-driven that they become a tad...um...merciless.
You have to cut good customers a break now and then....build goodwill...eat the cookie and swallow hard to please people if the situation requires special action.
I think it is the "impersonality" that really gets to people. If you think about it, what makes us angry as human beings is not being yelled at or cheated a bit so much as being IGNORED.
I look at automobiles as being equivalent to the healthcare system - both are extremely complicated, and the actual service providers make the smallest piece of the pie, as the middlemen (dealers, hospitals, insurance companies, etc.) take most of the money for themselves. Ever wonder why a doctor has basically practice assembly-line medicine to make a living a doctor should make?
I bought a 1 year old used car that's still under warranty. When I bring it in, will the repair-shop know from the VIN or whatever that the car is under warranty or do I need to do something more?