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Dealer vs. independent shop?
I've always heard that taking your car back to the dealer to do routine maintenance and repairs is a rip-off---that you're better off going to an independent service shop. Now that I finally have a car that's under 10 years old and that I'm willing to baby, I wanted to see what all you experts thought? Do you always take your cars back to the dealership or would you rather trust your local guy?
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It all depends on the dealer and independant shop.
The independant shops tend to spend more time on diagnosis than the dealer shops and therefore you may find the problem taken care of without having to go back time and time again.
But then again, dealer shops usually have access to the newest information and can often deal with updates on the information.
That being said, if the vehicle isn't under warranty, I prefer the independant shops.
I've done a little of my own light wrenching outside the two major sealed assemblies with mixed results there, as well.
ask around locally, and if you find a good one, stay with 'em.
Dealers are an assembly line when it comes to repairs, in and out ASAP and sell as much additional service as you can whether it needs it or not.
The good ones specialize in 1 or 2 makes only as the REQUIRED expertise level gets higher each year.
The problem is oem parts as the discount [from dealers] is a function of volume. We get 20-25-30% off list and resell at list [so parts costs to customer are equal].
Low volume independents must use aftermarket copies/knockoffs to compete [generate enough profit to stay in business].
As a result, they may spend a lot of time guessing when a dealer is more familiar with specific problems.
It's not easy being an independant today.
that gives me choice, although I usually always pick the most expensive part. learned the hardway about el cheapo parts.
I have been using the same independents for quite a few years. Ones who specialize in the specific manufacturer of cars we own. And on a couple very rare occations they have sent me to the dealer for some specific work they did not feel they were qualified to do.
The factory is trying to show Congress that it is not against independents, unfortunately you need a $5,000 diagnostic computer [Consult II] to avail yourself of the software capability. And a $20,000 Assist system for trouble - shooting.
You have to do $500,000 in Nissan annual work to afford it........why people specialize!
The major impediment to independents is CURRENT training and access to factory tech hotlines.
Plus the disadvantage of little discount on parts having to buy them from local dealer.
Note: My wife never puts the window down. She always uses AC/Heat/Fan.
A little over a year after that the window regulator for the same window failed again. BTW, these were $350-400 repairs each. About two years after that the ABS light came one and went off after a +$600 repair. We were told its a rare thing and if we could live without the ABS we could continue to drive the car. Since it was a 'rare' thing, we repaired and moved on.
Well, 18 months after that ABS it failed again. This time the Honda dealership's service department told us it compromised the conventional braking system, too. That repair was $1400. We had no choice in the matter.
Recently, the wife drove home one night abd the next morning no spark was reaching the plugs, and no sign (smell) of fuel) to the engine. Towed the car into the dealership for repair. At this point the 'nickel & dime' name came into mind.
During this repair the service writer stated his confidence it was the main relay. Cha-ching: $197. Guess what? That wasn't the problem. Electronics component in the ignition system. Cha-ching, $176.
During this latest repair I had the opportunity to talk to the service manager about feeling like we were being nickel & dimed to death with this 1995 Accord. I told him about the two ABS repairs and how we were forced on the second repair.
At this point the service manager stated that no component in the Honda ABS could compromise the conventional braking system. I said that isn't what we were told. Hence, I was lied to. Well, the day came to pick the Accord up from the latest repair and the service manager didn't want to talk to me. Thanks, Bobby (Service manager)! And thanks Lanier Honda for making me no longer trust you or Honda.
Tomorrow, I am forced to buy a new car although our original plans were for February-March. My wife stated earlier this week she felt her Accord could not be trusted. I like to think this was brought on more by the dealership she originally trusted, and too much.
In the future, I'll try my luck with the independent shops and roll some dice there.
Electronics are making new cars so complicated that even the dealers cannot repair them, so I don't see how an independent is going to fair any better with a 2004 car in say 2007.
Unless factories come up with better diagnostic methods and better quality control for electronics, AND share that information with independents, I foresee a day when cars 4-5 years old are junked rather than repaired.
Who will eat the remaining 15% depreciation remaining after 7 years.......just adds $1,000 per year [in 1-7] less junk value for parts say $1,000
Works in Japan with the 60k major mandated rebuild forcing 85% of car to be junked.
Members will look fondly at the pre ODB2 [1996] lux cars.
Even with labor rates in excess of 100.00 per hour which sounds insane, it's real tough to stay in business after paying expenses.
The times have, indeed, changed.
I don't think most of the cars out there will ever have an electronics problem that is difficult to diagnose and fix. Of course there will be the odd car that will be practically impossible to figure out, but that is a small risk you take, I think.
As to the future - currently all car electronics are very primitive, cumbersome and coupled. This is because electronics are fairly new in this application. They really resemble the old "mainframes" of the computer world, where when things break you are in trouble. Eventually, car electronics will become more "PC"-like. That is cheaper, and componentized. So the hard disk breaks – replace it. The sound card breaks – no bid deal – replace it. You lost all programs and data – download and reinstall everything in one go. Easy to isolate and diagnose a problem, and easy and cheap to replace a component.
About 90% of the old style technicans will need to return to school for 2-3 years [who will pay?] or there will be at least one EE per dealership which will charge $125-$150 per hour for his services........and there may be a month waiting list.
Extended service contracts will be $3-5,000.
2. Most electronic stuff is pretty reliable.
3. Cars are more reliable now than at any time that I can remember. I have 52K on a lowly Hyundai Elantra and only a neutral safety switch and several light bulbs have failed. That wouldn't have happened twenty years ago.
If you have a vehicle that is used, that you purchase, the chances of needing an extended warranty are pretty good.
Taking into consideration that a transmission problem can range from $1,000-$5,000 an extended warranty can pay for itself that one time.
While on a new vehicle, it may not pay off, but the right extended warranty can easily save you from chosing to scrap the vehicle and getting it fixed.
What do you mean by diabolical electronics? Do you think the electronics problems are really wide spread?
Yes, reported problems do seem to be on the rise, and there appear to be decent statistics to back this up.
What seems to be happening is this: New cars today do exhibit more electrical failures, (some say an increase of some 15% over older cars) but IF...IF...these are remedied by the dealer, or IF...IF...your car gets through the first 2 years of use without diabolical electronic failure, then the components seem quite reliable from that point on.
So people who say things are getting worse and those that say they are getting better are both, in fact, correct, or could be, depending on when in a new car's life we are talking about.
What isn't getting better is the independent shop's prospect of keeping up with the learning curve, since we have all had, or heard of experiences where the dealer can't even keep up.
We just repair Lexus and Infiniti that's about 17 models times 14 years worth.......luckily they don't make serious changes every year as 238 possible models is already a nightmare.
Each shop has 2 experts in each brand and there is little cross training other than the simple things.......thank goodness for pattern failures and the fact that most problems were taken care of at dealers under warranty.
The other problems are inventory........37 different types of brake pads and 20 different rotors......a different ecu/tcu [software] for each year.
Just out of curiosity, is the data broken down by make? If we remove VW,BMW,Mercedes and SAAB from the mix, is it still bad?
If you look at the 15% increase in failures, then look at the percentage of electrical systems that have been increased, you will find that the vehicles have increased the electrical by at least 40% vs the 15% increase in failures.
So it is a relative increase, if that makes any sense.
I would NOT expect the cars to be rotated through the lube/oil pit periodically. I would expect non-movers to be auctioned off to Smilin' Harry's Used Cars -- Buy Here, Pay Here. and that within a couple months, in the case of dealers, to maybe a few more in the case of used car lots that strive for a recent-and-solid reputation.
but that does bring up a good point about mechanics... if you buy a used car, you should assume that it needs a routine maintenance right off the bat. even if you don't/can't get it checked out by a mechanic before purchase. you could sniff the dipstick for gas odors if you wanted to, but that is not really a definitive test for 90-day or worse oil.
so what about new ones? if the brake rotors have rust on 'em, probably haven't been run up and down the lane or test driven recently. but then, you have manufacturer's warranty in case you get a loser. low-mileage demo might be a better deal than a February car you are kicking tires on in September that has rust on the rotors and on the serpentine belt idler pulley.
They'll hire anyone as long as you tell them you have a dozen friends who might need cars, when you run out of friends they let you go!
My son took a part time job as a detailer [go-fer] cleaning up auctioned exotics/high lines........he bought a 4 cylinder Nissan P/U after understanding that business.
don't think most of the cars out there will ever have an electronics problem that is difficult to diagnose and fix. Of course there will be the odd car that will be practically impossible to figure out, but that is a small risk you take, I think.
As to the future - currently all car electronics are very primitive, cumbersome and coupled. This is because electronics are fairly new in this application. They really resemble the old "mainframes" of the computer world, where when things break you are in trouble. Eventually, car electronics will become more "PC"-like. That is cheaper, and componentized. So the hard disk breaks – replace it. The sound card breaks – no bid deal – replace it. You lost all programs and data – download and reinstall everything in one go. Easy to isolate and diagnose a problem, and easy and cheap to replace a component.
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I have to ask, What do you do for a living. I can gaurantee it's not repairing cars. As a tech, I am totally insulted by your statement. You have no clue to the sophistication of todays electronics. Today's modules are already downloadable and programable, they all communicate with each other and all have security communication on every key cycle to prevent theft of any of the components. The SRS module doubles as a "black box" type recorder. Things like lights, radio, ignition, starter are all integrated into background security systems. That's only the beginning. A PC is like a Tonka truck compared to modern automotive systems. You have no idea what your talking about.
The systems of cars are actually quite sophisticated.
The problem is, that you are combining mechanically operated parts with the computerized parts, all which are moving and wearing out.
You compared it to a PC, well, if a hard drivbe fails, do you diagnose it or if it doesn't spin up, you just replace it? Ok, a harddrive is what, a $100? Using your same principles, you wish to replace and engine for the tune of $2,000-$8,000??
Not likely.
Plus the computers on cars don't crash on a regular basis. Sometimes they will have a glitch, but reflashing takes care of it and it is set again. If the computer goes on a vehicle, you install the new and go. It will already be loaded with the programming. A vehicle is componentized, as you stated it should be more PC like. All of the components operated different systems of the vehicle.
But, you are not running fuel, coolant, oil, dirt, electrical surges and water thru a PC. Try runnig all that thru a PC and see how well the system holds up.
Does a PC monitor, control and decide when to detonate a controlled bomb into your face? Well, an SRS system does.
Do you have GPS in your PC? I think not.
Some new vehicles do.
On that note, you should understand that most things that fail on a vehicle are often mechanically or contamintion related. Not actual computer related. If you knew automotive systems like Desi, Alcan or myself, you would understand that.
many of which errors are in the basic operating system itself, but this is not the place to open up that bar brawl of a dialogue between vendors.
auto systems are designed as real-time processors. some of the characteristics of real-time programming are bulletproof operation, critical testing of the entire system to ensure all error cases are handled without stopping the system, and results must be output from the system within critical time limits from any varying inputs. it's a whole 'nother world.
all software is from the automaker only, no outsiders may apply (although there are nerdy types trying to crack the systems out there, despite what auto companies think and say, because they want to run their hupmobile on Linux, or play DVDs on the digital dashboard, or whatever.) "chipping" an engine is the well-known "hack" of car engine computers, for instance.
last I heard, a renowned linear particle accelerator still works off an old DEC processor (details omitted because security means something it didn't used to in these times), pride of the 80s from a long-submerged computer maker. that's because DEC permitted release of source code after certain licensing was signed for the operating system... because it had a nice modular backplane (read it as "you can plug your own cards into it if you are a king-Hell engineer") that could be documented for a fee... and because it was the only such system at the time that had the reliability and accessability to run real-time if you divorced yourself from DEC factory support. they're real nervous about that machine, but it keeps on chugging. and it would be Hell on rollerblades to come up with an alternative; the only thing I can think of right offhand would be a VME-bus RISC machine, and there are lots of gotchas in that, too.
that's the world of real-time. you can't have an engine computer failure fire cylinder 3 with every pulse from the crankshaft sensor. not ever. those computers are also certified beyond basic mil-spec, in many cases 60 below to 200 above fahrenheit temperature range. they used to advertise microprocessors in the trade rags that had temp ranges guaranteed for several seconds that are way beyond anything you would use a computer for on earth.
one can guess at several useful tasks for such chips, likely covered by security blankets, and one may be correct or not, but critical auto electronics run close to those ranges.
no, they are not quite foreign mp3 player knockoffs.
I have to agree with Desi. It must be Christmas if I'm agreeing with Desi. LOL!
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Hahaha
Now, I don't know whether I've been insulted or complimented......lol
Merry Christmas anyway
I know I'm insulted by sgrd0q's comment about "it can't be THAT hard"
I've got one in the shop for you right now. "Come on down"
And the 90 model was very different from the 91 and 92, and 93....then the 94 went from 8 bit to 16 bit then 96 was 32 bit microprocessors.
The 2004 is a real trip.
California vs 49 state US, then traction control or without, then the active suspension and combinations and iterations.
Then there are up to 6 other microprocessor based systems.....ABS, ACTIVE, auto/temp HVAC, transmission controller,Air Bag, Body Control module.
To my knowledge none of these computers have failed.[but I have only seen around 4,000 vehicles......in a data processing way unless they were destroyed by impact or corrosion [water leaks/spilled coffee] or some external short [injectors/coils taking out a driver transistor] or jump starting the car with terminals reversed.
We have seeen failed alternators put out 18-20 volts and things survive.
There are about 7 people in the US that understand the code on the 1990 model and 2 on the 1996 model.
Even with dealers all they can do is order the correct model and swap to see if the problems go away.
Most/all master techs at the 165 dealers don't have a clue about the internal workings.
As PHD in Computer Science don't like to get dirty.
Cupholders and allowing owners to drink in cars is the bane of humanity! They self inflict more costly damage than even the rodents.
That would solve the problem!!
Not putting anyone down. From previous posts it is obvious that arrrogance does not know a educational degree, does it?
The most sophisticated scanning tool, the most whiz-bang analyzer, is of no use if the data is not interpreted correctly.
It was a compliment, my friend. Ha ha.
The mechanics who keep on top of things are the ones who will succeed. The ones who are satisfied to only take what training they are required will soon fall way behind.
The technology of newer vehicles is changing as fast as a person can learn it. About the time you get one system figured out, they go and change it.
My only point is that I see the cars in the future being more componetized, where components are cohesive but loosely coupled, and where it is easier to diagnose and swap out a component, as opposed to working on and trying to fix the whole thing. Hence my somewhat clumsy PC vs. mainframe analogy.
"A PC is like a Tonka truck compared to modern automotive systems." Not really. Depends on the PC and the software on it. There are actually PCs that work in real-time environments running real-time applications that control complex factory production systems, for instance.
Your average car's processor, while being very reliable, is quite simple and has very, very little processing power compared to a modern PC. But that wasn't even my point.
The 'Tonka truck' issue in terms of PC's vs car electronics is silly of course. I think what the earlier poster mean to say was that cars could (and should) have more standardized computer systems, but then, why on earth are there umpteen wheel hole patterns?
Whoever was sticking up for car computer complexity...I'm afraid you're probably wrong. PC's and their relatives have long been used in realtime mission-critical systems. Besides low cost, they tend to have the reliability that comes with high volume. Processor-wise, the embedded parts in cars simply aren't as fast as desktop units and run nowhere near as much software as in either the applications or embedded PC worlds. There are boatloads of PC's used in embedded realtime applications with far higher end user cost and far tighter timing constraints than passenger cars. End pontification.
It strikes me that the real bugaboo in all of this is not the software or the embedded computer hardware but is rather where the interfaces to the outside world exist. There's worse environments (in terms of vibration / hot/cold / UV issues / general wear) for things like connectors and the zillion electromechanical systems that are starting to pop up, but they aren't as cost sensitive.
I tend to agree with Sr. Shiftright that the net end result of all this will be throw away cars. The complexity and unintended consequences of failure will proliferate at a far greater rate than the line mechanic's ability to diagnose them.
April 28, 2004
Meredith Stockwell
12200 Academy Road, NE
#1116
Albuquerque, NM 87111
Attn: Click & Clack
Car Talk Plaza
Box 3500 Harvard Square
Cambridge, MA 02238
To Whom It May Concern:
At 12:45 p.m. on the 13th of April, 2004 I visited Just Brakes, Store Number 13, 3913 San Mateo, NE, Albuquerque, NM 87110, (505.884.1441) for a 4-wheel friction reline service advertised for $99.88 + supplies and tax for my 2002 Mazda Protégé 5 with 38,612 miles. Once there, the two primary technicians, Bryan and Randy (assisted by Jose) told me that in addition to the reline I had some manufacturer’s defects that if rectified now would not need to be fixed for at least 50,000 miles, maybe permanently. They did not inform me that this work would be covered by the manufacturer’s warranty of 36 months or 50,000 miles.
The nature of the purported manufacturer’s defects were that the brake lines were not pulling the brake pads completely apart when the brakes were released causing constant and consistent rubbing of one pad per wheel, the pad closest to each respective brake line. It was recommended that I fix the manufacturer’s defects immediately so that I need not worry about when the brakes might fail; nor would I need to fix them in the future therefore increasing the overall life of the vehicle. I was told that all four brake calipers had to be rebuilt and that hydraulic work was also necessary.
I had just received my Federal Tax Refund and had waited for that refund to arrive so that I could use it for my brakes and to repair other, unrelated items I own. I was disappointed that after having just received the check for $631 that I would end up paying $518.43 for a job that was advertised as about $120.78 bottom line. But I thought I was saving myself some real trouble in the future, this car has to last a long time, I won’t pay for a new car every two years, against the stats of most Americans, so I thought this decision to be the right one. I went back to work to wait for the repair to be completed and called someone about the work to be done and the associated charges. My friend was furious that these “professionals” were using manipulative language and over-exaggerations of my car’s impending doom to trick me into getting this work done, this work that was completely unnecessary.
My friend is certain that I had one bad brake and one worn brake, not four, and certainly not four bad calipers that needed to be re-built completely. If it was a manufacturer’s defect it would have been covered under my warranty. As it turns out, I probably should not have even needed the four wheel reline – I would have gotten it anyway so as to ensure the brake pads and rotors were all taken care of simultaneously; no need to make four trips.
I kept the parts for future reference. I also checked the Internet regarding this company, Just Brakes, and found many other people who have experienced the same sort of ‘caliper’ problem. I also found out that the need to re-build calipers is a very rare thing. This would make the odds of needing to re-build four calipers on the same car, a car with only 38,000+ miles on it, almost astronomical.
The sad fact is that I didn’t think these types of manipulations existed anymore. I mistakenly believed that in this day and age, we as a country had progressed into civilized behavior. I don’t know why these “professionals” acted this way to me, I don’t care why they did it; I only care that they did it and that they don’t do it again. The most unfortunate fact of the situation is that I trusted in human nature, I believed in what they were doing, I knew I could afford it and may not be able to later, and I signed the work order. Once I signed the work order there was and is nothing I can do to reclaim what was taken from me or to get my payment back. But, I can do everything within my power to ensure that these “professionals” are not allowed to get away with this type of behavior with other unsuspecting victims. I won’t make the same mistake again, but I hope that with this letter I can help you help others learn from my mistake and not believe in the honesty of mankind and not assume that everyone is ethical. One might think I would have learned that with all the corporate scandal we have witnessed in the near past, but as this company is small and regional and privately traded, they are not subject to the same strict laws as public companies. Maybe we should change that as well.
I beseech you to use my information to help others so that they don’t learn the hard way that ethics is still very much an issue.
Thank you in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.
Sincerely,
Meredith Stockwell
(Upset Victim)
Cc: Federal Trade Commission Consumer Reports
Better Business Bureau Office of the Governor of New Mexico
US Senator Jeff Bingaman US Senator Pete Domenici
US Representative Heather Wilson Office of the Att. Gen. of New Mexico
Just Brakes # 13 Just Brakes Corporate Office
J.D. Power and Associates Car and Driver Magazine
Edmunds.com Mazda North American Operations
Consumers Union SEC Headquarters
SEC, Fort Worth District Office Office of the Attorney General of Texas
KOAT-Channel 7 KASA Fox-Channel 2
KRQE-Channel 13 Office of the Mayor of Albuquerque
Hopefully things will resolve out for you. Futurewise, if a repair seems high and out of line get a second opinion. Chains (your case) are not known for their great reputation. Independants can be very good or even worse. Just ask around or even better ask a few people at different auto parts stores. I found an extremely trustworthy person this way.
Another resource is http://cartalk.com/content/mechx/
No offense, but why would you send a letter like that to a radio show, especially one that is mocked by "real" mechanics?
The letter should have been directed to a few of the ones in your Cc; list.
snarks,
Again, not to offend, but realistically, any on-line database of mechanics is made up of a few mechanics who have taken the time to go around to every on-line database they could find.
The one you gave the URL for list 16,000 mechanics. Out of how many in the US? A couple hundred thousand? So are they saying only the 16,000 they list are the only reputable ones?? I think not.
you're going to get some horror stories, and some recommendations. more than two folks have a horror story for the same shop, uh, I forget what you do :-D
oh yeah... NEVER go there. yeah, that's it.
and if somebody you really trust about cars says Irvin's is a great shop and they saved him a ton of money by installing one of those really old brands of parts and he's never had to fix 'em again, you know what to do about that.
If two equally reputable and well-established shops bid $150 apart, that might be a different story.
I remember one guy I gave this advice to and he got all huffy and stuff and said "Well, SOME people can't afford to squander money on fancy shops. I barely have enough to put gas in the tank!"
All kinds of rude responses come to my mind, among them wondering how safe his car is, and another wondering what the rationale was for getting a bad job at a lesser price and thinking that was somehow clever and thrifty?
A highly competent and trustworthy repair shop is a treasure as far as I'm concerned. I advise people to support those shops faithfully, even if they are sometimes more expensive.
The cheap cheap shops will cut corners. Most often, there isa reason that the brake job is $69.95. It is because they only do the bare minimum. Then, 3 months later, when something that they should have replaced, but didn't, goes bad. It isn't covered under warranty, so you pay again. Later, when another thing fails, again, it isn't covered, you pay again.
If the job is done correctly, it should be a very long time before it has to come back.
I don't like to see any repair back in my shop with in 6 months (barring abuse).