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Comments
Can we not sometimes go by common sense?
Both Accord and Accord Hybrid have essentially the same internal combustion engine. Agreed?
Standard V6 runs only on 6 cylinders while Hybrid runs part of the time on 3. Agreed?
Standard V6 engine runs the whole time the car is in use while the hybrid stops engine at most stops and/or below 8-10 MPH. Agreed?
To accelerate the Standard V6 must use more fuel while the hybrid can use electric first then fuel as needed. Agreed?
So..
What does common sense tell you about which car is delivering more pollutants?
I assume then that we'll have no further debate over whether the HAH will always achieve its EPA fuel economy ratings of 29/37, since the EPA is the official word on the matter and that is not open to debate--real-world considerations notwithstanding.
Due to impact on global warming.
That's not intelligence, it's common sense. "
Well, since we are off the subject here, perhaps we can ask all those cave men (and women) how they increased the greenhouse gasses to cause the end of the ice age 12000 years ago...
And now, back to our regularly scheduled topic...
To the person with the Chrysler minivan: make sure you have enough cargo room, the van you are driving has over 30 cubic feet (assuming grand caravan with 3rd seat up), while the HAH has a maximum of 11 cubic feet of trunk space.
About the trunk space. I think it is a lot more noticeable because the seats do not fold down. This weekend we loaded more in my friends Cavalier than I could ever fit into my trunk. Nevertheless, I have chosen to give up a little trunk space for power, better mpg, and less emissions. I am quite satisfied with my choice because although it's not much, I'm doing my little part for the earth. Admittedly I could do more by riding a bike or subway but that is not my cup of tea.
About the trunk space. I think it is a lot more noticeable because the seats do not fold down. This weekend we loaded more in my friends Cavalier than I could ever fit into my trunk. Nevertheless, I have chosen to give up a little trunk space for power, better mpg, and less emissions. I am quite satisfied with my choice because although it's not much, I'm doing my little part for the earth. Admittedly I could do more by riding a bike or subway but that is not my cup of tea."
Oh, I wasn't complaining, just noting that it is a consideration before purchase. Every car has it's strengths and weaknesses.
Thank goodness you said "move on" and not "grow up" (willing to do the first, but always a kid at heart)!
It is true. I agreed with you. The HAH's trunk is just a little bit smaller than the regular one but the power and the acceleration are much better. Its new 3rd-generation IMA is superb. Those who have never driven an HAH should test drive it to get the feeling of "flying on a magical carpet" or "riding on a witch's electronic broom".
All I can say briefly is the HAH is truly a "street racer" and also a pretendingly shy and a "make-to-believe" low profile top Accord. The engine of the HAH (7th generation Accord) is outstanding, one of the ten best engines in the world. It looks pretty much similar to the BMW engine with most of the wires be hidden somewhere. It is quite impressive.
I have owned 10 Honda (Civic and Accord). All I can say is I still have been madly in love with my "baby" 10 year old Accord I4 EX 95 which has 200K miles on it and it still runs dependably and reliably. It always runs like it is afraid that it will not have any other chance to "jump and run" again. Same thing with my HAH. It just jumps and speeds up real fast no matter if it rains or shines. No single breakdown ever to all my Accords. Somebody's spouse and kids may not be loyal and dependable to him/ her that way.
.
The catalyst is the most important factor in emissions. Take a clean car, remove its catalyst, and suddenly you have the dirtiest car in the neighborhood.
We have no idea what the catalyst looks like underneath the Accord. Perhaps the Accord Hybrid's catalyst is smaller, and therefore even though the engine runs less, still puts out the same amount of CO/NO/HC polluntants as the Accord V6. WE DON'T KNOW.
Thought experiments are good.
But Actual testing data from the EPA is better.
I'll stick with the EPA test results which show V6=Hybrid in NO/CO/HC pollutants.
.
Oh, and anyone who thinks CO2, the stuff we breathe out & that plants breath in & make yummy corn-on-the cob, is "dirt"..... is an idiot. (Or in severe denial.) CO2, like O2 or N2 or H2, is a gas, not a polluntant.
troy
Um, that would be me.
Do you want me to start posting links to studies which PROVE that Green House Gas emissions are bad for the environment?
Because if so, I can quickly round up dozens of them.
This is the fact:
"Green House Gas Emissions IS without a doubt a factor in the cleanliness or dirtiness of a car."
http://www.greenercars.com/byclass2.html#MID
Interesting what they show. They show the hybrid as “Superior” ULEV II and the I4 Accord as “Above average” PZEV, but don’t even list the Accord v6!?! Thanks for the updated info!
On that site..
Top 5 Greenest Midsize Cars:
Toyota Prius 53 PZEV
Accord Hybrid 40 ULEV 2
Kia Spectra 39 PZEV
Toyota Camry 38 PZEV
Accord I4 38 PZEV
Hyundai Elantra 38 PZEV
Man, I hate getting off topic, but the studies don't PROVE anything except that when you program a computer simulation, you get back the answers that you programmed in. I am a computer scientist, and that makes me question the findings, as well as the fact the there have been many previous warming periods in history, well before CO2. Plus there are about 20,000 scientists on the "doesn't prove" side of the fence; it's just that no one ever interviews them.
That's not a computer simulation - that's historical fact. Is it accidental, or coincidental, or unrelated to humans?:)
Records which go back ~ 120 years (continuous), or at most ~250. No one is questioning the warming trends; it is the causes that are the question. Again, the earth has had many, many warming and cooling cycles.
Atmospheric scientists are attempting to generate computer models to explain the warming. Herin lies the problem - with the scientific method, one postulates a theory and then conducts experiments. But if you build a computer simulation around a postulated reason, it is extremely easy to get the answer that matches the question.
So hold on to your hats and grab your swim trunks, because the ocean is likely going to rise again. Wonder if they can make the Prius into a dual use car/boat?
There, I at least managed to work the topic of hybrids into this discussion... sort of... well, nevermind...
True, but none of those have occurred with the current levels of GHG being spewed into the air - we are in NEW territory.....:)
Again, you are assuming that the two are correlated. I have read of some scientists who think the CHG will help cool the earth due to the formation of clouds, not accounted for in many models.
I suppose if that hypothesis were true, the effects would be happening already? I think the fact that the ten hottest years on record have occurred in the last 14 years is a pretty good indicator of what is going on......
If you are even remotely considering a new sedan of any kind you owe it to yourself to test drive one of these. If you can find one on a dealer's lot that is. I've had mine for a little over a month and still find greater joy in driving it everyday. Even if it wasn't a hybrid I would love it just as much but probably wouldn't be as thrilled with the mileage.
I presume you are not referring to the "awsome car" post...
It IS very hard to find a HAH to drive, if my experience is any indication. I had to visit three different dealerships, and when I finally found a unit on the lot, I had to finagle a test drive--and then I was limited to a few minutes and less than 4 miles. But it's worth the trouble to find one to drive if you are looking at mid-sized near-luxury cars.
Did the salesman have any reason for not letting you drive it any further?
The Honda dealer we went to was not letting anyone test drive the HAH they had on the lot. You could sit in it. I wanted to drive the only Odyssey EX-L that was on the lot and he said he thought it was already sold. Both vehicles had $3000 "dealer markup" on the window sticker. The salesman indicated there may be a little room for negotiation on the HAH.
I don't think the "car not reaching EPA estimates" had anything to do with it. In fact, I specifically told the salesman that one of the reasons I wanted to drive the car was to assess its fuel economy. And he seemed very interested to find out what it would do also. I did post my test drive notes earlier so I'm not going to rehash all that, but we did achieve 25.0 mpg over what I consider to be pretty tough conditions: stone cold engine (20 F), starting out weaving through a big parking lot, spirited acceleration onto a freeway, total of just under four miles with most of it suburban streets, lots of stop signs and a couple of long lights.
I believe that. Honda dealers here have them on the lot because it takes longer to find a sucker willing to pay $3000 over MSRP. I Have not bought a new car in CA since 1964. I look and try to make a deal and end up going to Oregon, Washington or Idaho to buy. I just cannot make a decent deal with CA new car dealers.
Atleast the salesman finally gave in but nevertheless I find these statements of people being unable to test drive the HAH absurd. Just my 2 cents.
I think Honda would do well to follow the lead Toyota set with the Prius. They had cars available for test drives. It got people in and interested in the hybrid technology. Honda is being shortsighted in their approach. It sounds like most of the buyers wanted the HAH no matter how it operated and how bad they got gouged. Consequently Toyota outsells Honda on almost every level.
In fact, European market relies heavily on GHG measurements, not so much on the “defined” pollutants. Ideally, you would want to reduce all forms of emissions, GHG or smog forming pollutants.
.
Yep, global warming. I agree.
NOW how does this quote prove that CO2 is a poison to humans? (Like CO, HC, NOx, PM)?
It does not.
troy
I disagree as does a sizable portion of the scientific community. As far as the HAH goes it will have to get the combined 32 mpg to emit the 6.0 tons of GHG as stated. If it gets lower mileage as some owners report the GHG tonnage goes up proportianatly. At 24 mpg combined the GHG will be 8.0 tons just like the non-hybrid V6 Accord. If you are one that believes all you read about global warming it would be best to go lightly on your HAH throttle or you may cook your town. One reason I don't believe all the global warming propaganda is that we have gone through the coldest driest 10 years on record in So. California. There are weather cycles and I have not seen good solid evidence that we as humans had that much to do with controlling the weather. It is a political tool to create fear in the population.
In short, scientists think rising levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere are contributing to global warming, as would be expected; but to what extent is difficult to determine at the present time.
http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/climateunce- rtainties.html
Something else: there is very little if any "hard data" suggesting that increasing GHG is "GOOD" for the environment/planet.
So anyone who drives a "clean" higher MPG car can be pretty assured that they are not harming the enviroment by doing that !!!
"After all, this isn't a new topic that just got started. "
You are so right! but it's gone on long enough. Please give it a rest or take it elsewhere and let's move back to specific HAH issues.
Global warming is a very complex issue which generates many points of view and emotions. hijacking the HAH thread is not the way to make either case.
Please?
CALIFORNIA (CO,HC,NO,PM - not CO2)
V6 Accord = 7
Accord Hybrid=7
45-STATE SCORE (CO,HC,NO,PM - not CO2)
V6 Accord = 6
Accord Hybrid=6
This means that the Accord V6 & Accord Hybrid are equally clean (equal amounts of human poisons), although the V6 contributes more CO2 to the greenhouse effect.
troy
In another post you show a link to this site:
http://www.greenercars.com/byclass2.html#MID
Interesting what they show. They show the hybrid as “Superior” ULEV II and the I4 Accord as “Above average” PZEV, but don’t even list the Accord v6!?!
On that site..
Top 5 Greenest Midsize Cars:
Toyota Prius 53 PZEV
Accord Hybrid 40 ULEV 2
Kia Spectra 39 PZEV
Toyota Camry 38 PZEV
Accord I4 38 PZEV
Hyundai Elantra 38 PZEV
Personally I think it's obvious that the HAH is "greener" and therefore "cleaner" than the standard v6. You know deep down it's true regardless of what you say or read. So EPA says one thing but we know their tests are 30 years old, flawed and don't test the hybrids for their "hybridability" Word? We know that greencars gives the hybrid a much higher rating than it's counterparts. If you don't like it or don't want to believe it fine!
Additionally:
http://www.accountingweb.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=100511&d=815-&h=- 817&f=816&dateformat=%25B%20%25e,%20%25Y
Since the feds have deemed the HAH worthy of the "clean fuel vehicle" tax deduction there must be something there!
For reasons that escape me, there seems to be a small faction of regular posters who feel it is their mission in life to show that hybrid technology is useless and/or a waste of time and money. You have made your point...over...and over...and over...is it necessary to keep repeating it?
The Accord V6 & Accord Hybrid are rated the same for CO/HC/NO/PM emissions, and the AH emits less CO2 than the V6, according to EPA and CARB test results.
Sticking to facts helps avoid nit-picking about the meaning of words like "clean" and arguing about whether test results are representative of real-world driving--and helps keep us on topic.
troy
Is GHG emissions a part of HAH issue? Answer in YES or NO. And we will move on.
troy
No.
new Honda Accord Hybrid with a manual transmission?
Is the automatic a CVT or DSG or other non-standard transmission?
troy
The debate as it was going NO.
"but when was the last time you saw a discussion that met your specifications? Just look above yours, and several post after it"
With the exception of this and other posts I've made relating to getting back to the HAH specific discussions I have always talked about the HAH. I bought one and that's why I'm here. Why are you here? To find out more about the HAH or debate global warming and whether CO2 has anything to do with it etc etc.
"I couldn't care less about talking non-HAH discussions on this thread"
That is obvious! This IS however a thread about the HAH. So, having answered your question in the way you DEMANDED can we move on now?
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2004-09-23-acc- ord-hybrid_x.htm