Toyota Tundra VS Ford F-150

z71bill · April 2000

I have always thought that the higher the value was for differential gears the lower the gearing. 3.73 is a lower gear ratio than 3.42. 4.1 is lower than 3.73.

When Motor trend ran all four trucks in the 1/4 mile they finished Silverado 1st, Tundra 2nd, F-150 3rd, Ram last.

Silverado beat the 2nd place Tundra by 25 feet, beat the Ford by 87 feet, and the Ram by 124 feet

The Tundra was gaining ground on the Silverado - Tundra in fact will beat the Chevy to 80mph.

bigsnag · April 2000

ferris47:
Why did you say that the gears should be 3.73 for Ford and 4.10 for Chevy right after you said the gearing should be as close to equal as possible? Both manufacturer's offer 3.73's and 4.10's and even 3.55's for that matter. Why not the same for both?

Z71Bill:
Which Motor Trend test was this? I've seen several from them and Truck Trend. The latest one from Motor Trend faced off 4X4 trucks. The Chevy did win, but they forgot to mention that it had 4.10's while the Ford had 3.55's. Not quite fair. Put 3.23's in a Chevy with their 5.3 and 4.56's in a Ford six cylinder and see who wins.

swede38 · April 2000

Just read the November 1999 issue of Consumers Report. They tested the Tundra, F150, Silverado 1500 and the Dodge Ram 1500. One of the tests involved timing the 0 - 60 time while towing a 7,000 pound trailer. The Tundra (4.7) and the F150 (5.4) took 23 seconds. The Silverado (5.3) took 25 seconds, while the Dodge took 33 seconds.

I am looking to purchase a pickup that will tow a 5500 pound trailer. Do any of you tow that much with your Tundra??

DHS

bigsnag · April 2000

Did they say what the rear end gear ratios were? That can make a HUGE difference.

jaijay · April 2000

I have read the same article in consumers report a while back and if I recall, the Chevy and the Toyota both ran the same times when pulling a 7k load. The Ford was a little slower. However all three trucks pulled decent, the Dodge was much slower.

quadrunner500 · April 2000

Saw my first F150 Super Crew up close, and talked to the proud owner. Personally, I think the first time a Tundra owner sees one, his head is going to snap around. Talk about space inside....combined with the little cargo bed...plenty for a grocery hauler like Tundra.

ferris47 · April 2000

I always associate the Chevy 4X4 with 4.10 gears forgot all about the 3.73 and I wasn't aware that Ford offered the 4.10s on their half tons. But the point is I do agree that everybody should run as close to the same gearing as possible. I personally think this shows the Tundra to be very competitive. The Tundra hangs right with the big 3 even with equal gearing. If we are talking about gearing alone you can make just about anything jump off the line with low enough gears.

I do apologize about that 4.10 thing. I had a Chevy on order and couldn't get the 3.73 gears maybe I am just jaded and trying to mentally block that whole set of gears out.

One thing I will trash is GM's new VOMs ordering system. They will put just about anything together and hope you take it. Bad marketing if you ask me.

bigsnag · April 2000

It's not a big deal. I was just a little confused. I just get amused by these articles by different magazines. They face off two trucks and then they say "man Brand X was much faster than the Brand Y" and then you look in the specs and Brand X was fitted with 4.56 gears and Brand Y had 3.23's. These people (who are supposed to know what they are talking about) ALWAYS fail to mention stuff like that in the text.

ferris47 · April 2000

It is just like statistics. You can make any numbers look the way you want them to. Marketing is the same way. I take just about all car commericials with a grain of salt. My Tundra is quick though and it will run with a comparibly equipped truck in the real world.

My two favorite truck commercials as of late are the one where the Ford has a Western theme going and they make use of the Phrase "It's Time to Get Outa Dodge." and the Tundra Commercial where they race it against the Lotus and then the road runs out and the Lotus stops while the Tundra keeps going.

Anybody ever see the commercial for the S10 ZR2 about 3 or 4 years ago where they are showing all these nice luxo cars running down a twisty road through some green hilly pasteurs. The voice over is simply saying in that haughty voice the BMW 328I....The Lexus Yadda yadda etc. Each time he says a car it comes running down these twisty roads. He goes through about 4 cars and then says the Chevrolet S10 ZR2 and all of sudden this muddy ZR2 comes leaping over a hill and jumps the road the cars had been driving down. I think I am the only person who saw this commercial, it was funny as hell.

tp4unc · April 2000

Just for the record, my head did not snap around. I'm no fan of crew cab half-tons or compact trucks....regardless of make. It's just a personal thing I guess. Now, an F350 SuperDuty Crewcab is another story.

eharri3 · April 2000

Im not too much into the crew cab half tons or compacts either. But I think If you do it do it with the half tons first before compacts. With compacts bedspace gets so limited people might as well get SUV's. This is where Ford made the rigght call and Dodge, Chevy, and Toyota are making mistakes and missing out on what will be a very proftiabe market for the Supercrew.

barlitz · April 2000

I'm not much of a gearhead when it comes to engines and stuff, But there is a guy on the F150 site that has put 4.10 gears in his F150 nascar truck along with a supercharger and some other mods and he's beating stock lightning times.I know the higher your gear ratio the quicker your acceleration but I'm sure your gas milage suffers,BTW I kept my lightning sticker it came with 3.55 ratio limited slip axle and it was extremely quick with a 4 speed auto,I think they use the deisel tranny in them because of all the tourque 440lbs,so if you think about it it is probably the tourque that generates the accereration.

bigsnag · April 2000

First of all, STOP SHOUTING. Second, according to Comp Cams, their Magnum Belt Drive Systems (timing belts) "are proven to be more durable than either gear or chain drives". I would think Comp knows what they are talking about. I'm not saying that Toy uses this high of quality stuff, but a blanket statement about timing belts being junk, is just not true.

tmwilkinson1 · April 2000

First of all - let me state that I drove a Ford F-150 before buying my Tundra and it is a very nice truck. I liked the styling of the Tundra better, I think it drove a little better, I got the Tundra for invoice and it had a better powertrain warranty. The Ford was close on all of these counts. I would suggest that anyone who is undecided should definitely drive both trucks.

As far as the Toyota timing belt goes the service interval is 100,000 miles. The manufacturer is usually very conservative on the service interval. I owned an Acura with a 60,000 mile interval on the timing belt and I actually replaced it at 90,000 miles. The belt that I took out looked like new. YMMV.

The belt is usually pretty cheap and the labor to replace it is not outrageous. I plan to do it myself.

Toyota engines are non-interference engines. This means that when the belt breaks - valves do not hit pistons. The engine will stop running and only the belt will need to be replaced.

quadrunner500 · April 2000

Ferris, you're absolutely right about VOMS.

Tp4, sorry about the head snapping around comment. BTW, how's the neck brace working out? ...LOL

All,
Saw the other big Ford hit today, the Sport Track. Overstyled to me, in a way you could grow to love if you weren't first smitten.

Silverado/Sierra have been eating into F150 sales recently, but I think these two hybrids are the tonic to assure Ford stays in front.

tp4unc · April 2000

I can't play the violin anymore.

ferris47 · April 2000

3.55 gears in the Lightning? Damn that is a quick truck and it only has 3.55s. That truck impresses me more every day and I don't like Fords. If they made an extended cab version that is probably what I would be driving.

Gears make a big difference with not as big an effect on mileage as people might think. The biggest problem I have seen is the lower the gearing you use the more top end "breath" you lose. My Dakota R/T really ran out of go by about 75 or 80. I know it's a truck.

Most of the Silverados and GMCs are coming out of the factory with 3.42 gears, at least down here, and as much respect I have for the 5.3 Vortech it really seems overwhelmed with 3.42 gears.

My Tundra has 3.91......Pie R Squared gearing. It is weird they stretch the ratio number out to like the 6th digit in some publications from Toyota. I was worried that this gearing would be a bit low and that I would lose some of that highway cruising ability but I am so impressed with the Tundra's ability to get off the line in a flash and still be able to cruise at 80 with plenty of passing power left.

Wow past few posts actually have the beginnings of a rational, friendly discussion of our trucks. Impressive.

arkie6 · April 2000

Remember that most of todays trucks, and especially 4x4s are using 16" wheels vs. 15" wheels a few years ago. These taller tires effectively raise your overall gear ratio. Say, a 3.73 rear end with 15" wheels might be comparable to 3.91 gears with 16" wheels (I haven't put pen to paper to check exact figures). Just keep this in mind when comparing vehicles and axle ratios.

tp4unc · April 2000

I hate to argue with you but everyone knows that pie are round!

modvptnl · April 2000

Wheel size has nothing to do(ok a little) with overall gearing. Generally the tire on the larger rim will have a lower aspect ratio. say a 60 as opposed to a 75. This will basically make the tire/wheel package have the same overall outside diameter. The same thing applies if you have 31's, 33's or higher tires on 15, 16, or 17 inch rims. The only thing affected is the sidewall width(the aspect ratio). A 33" tire is the same diameter regardless of what rim you use. Actually the rim width can make a difference but that's another story.

barlitz · April 2000

As the weather's getting nicer I'm really missing that lightning,I wish I'd kept it I checked out the trade in value on one the other day and its close to 30000.and thats with 12000 miles.I got 26000 for mine with 2300 miles.At blueoval news.com they are saying the 2001 will be bumped to 375HP with 460lbs tourque along with some clear lenses and other minor cosmetic changes,but according to them and hotrod magazine(I haven't read yet) the 2003 lightning will have a makeover along with all the f series trucks and a new 3valve engine and will be doing the low 12's in 1/4 from factory.I hope I can wait til then.But I doubt it.

606zpx · April 2000

I have a Tundra and have heard that the 4.7l is actually an interference engine. In other words if there is a belt failure when the truck is running--worst case scenario is a valve and head job, so to speak

.

z71bill · April 2000

You are backwards in your thinking about differential ratios. You are right that larger wheels "raise" the drive ratio, but when you raise a gear ratio it does not mean the number gets larger (3.73 becomes 3.91) the value will get smaller (3.73 becomes 3.42) The lower the gears the higher the number will be. 4.10 to one is lower that 3.73 to 1 which is lower then 3.42 to 1 which is lower that 3.08 to 1.

The engine must turn the drive shaft 4.1 times for every 1 time the rear wheels turn with 4.1 gears. Drive shaft turns 3.08 times for every 1 time wheels turn if you have 3.08 gears.

Toyota keeps it simple by only having one rear end.

modvptnl · April 2000

Like I said before wheel(rim) size has nothing to do with final ratios. It's the the tire size that matters. The original post from Arkie was if you had a 3.73 with a 15" rim it would be like having a 3.9 with a 16" rim. Which would be logical if the TIRES were an inch difference in diameter not the rims. I don't think he was backwards in which way the ratios go just that RIMS don't affect ratios.

tmwilkinson1 · April 2000

606px -
If you look here:

http://www.gates.com/shared/brochure.cfm?brochure=109
you will see that the 4.7L in the Landcrusiser is a non-interference engine (as well as all other Toyota OHC engines). The Tundra should be a non-interference engine unless they re-designed the Tundra engine to be an interference engine (If so, this would be the only Toyota engine to be so). Show me the source that says the Tundra is an interference engine.

arkie6 · April 2000

What I said in post 213 was that "taller tires" effectively raise your overall gear ratio, which is correct. z71bill, I understand that a 3.42 rear end is a higher gear ratio than a 3.73. Reread post 213. I said that a 3.73 (which is a lower gear ratio that 3.91) might be comparable in overall gear ratio to a 3.91 that had taller tires. modvptnl, I should have added in post 213 "assuming the 15" tires and 16" tires have the same width and aspect ratio, the 16" tires will have a larger circumference". Many of tires installed at the factory on new trucks are 70 to 75 series, no matter if 15" or 16", and are typically 235-265 mm width. I wasn't referring to off-road truck tires designated by 31", 32", 33" etc, since like you said, that number determines the overall tire circumference, not the rim diameter. I was just trying to make a general comparison of new trucks of several years ago with 15" tires vs. new trucks today with 16" tires. Whew.

z71bill · April 2000

A 3.91 is a lower ratio than a 3.73. The higher the value the lower the gear ratio. This stuff is a little confusing. Putting larger diameter tires on a truck does in effect raise your drive ratio. From say 3.73 to 3.42. Notice raising the ratio makes the value smaller!!
If you don't believe me check the tow ratings with different rear end ratios. The Higher value (lower gearing) has a larger tow capacity.

arkie6 · April 2000

I give up. We're saying the same thing.

modvptnl · April 2000

I think it is you that's a little confused. Everyone in this conversation understands the numbers.

The comment was made(and this will be the third time) That the performance would be aprox. equal if you have a smaller tire with a NUMERICALLY lower ratio as a if you had a taller tire with a NUMERICALLY larger ratio.

In other words 31" tires + 3.42 rear end may be equal to 33" tires + 3.91.

My original comment to all these posts was that it is tire size not rim size which dictates diameter. Arkie cleared that up.

Please stop trying to tell us what we've been saying for days, thank you.

dbhull · April 2000

I just bought a 2000 F-150 ext cab with 5.4l and 3:55 ls diff. I traded my 99 Silverado for it.
I actually tested and researched all the trucks out. Drove a Dodge, Ford, Chevy and the Tundra.
I like the interior features, comfort, autotrac, big cabin, exterior class, etc. of the Silverado. As far as my overall like of the design, the Silverado wins for my taste. However, since new, I have had an awful pinging on 87 octane gas that I havn't had any help from GM on and nothing I have tried has fixed it. I thought that a colder firing plug would work and it did take about 95% of it away, but it still pings under load or when the AC is on. I just have gotten burnt out on paying so much money for a truck that doesn't run right and GM won't fix.
I still think that the Silverado is a great design, but there are some quality issues that GM doesn't resolve any better than any other manuf.

I liked the Dodges exterior and it's stance, but not much else. I thought the 360 was kinda sluggish for all that displacement and gets terribel mpg.

I also liked the Tundra, but it is too small and regardless of the tests, I didn't see the acceleration and power that Tundra owners see. Not knocking the truck, I just didn't see enough truck for the money.

Next to the Silverado, I liked the Ford the best. Great styling, although not as advanced as GM, Agressive engine response, smooth ride. i thought the steering and braking was a little sloppy compared the the Silverado, but not bad at all. What made this sale is the price. GM would not even come close to fair market value for my truck on trade and stuck very close to retail on their truck. None of the dealers wanted to work for the deal. Not just one but 3 different Ford dealers were trying to outdo each other, which drove the deal better and better for me. I got fair market value for my truck in trade (24,500 according to both Edmunds and KBB) and they came down to 100 over invoice on their truck (26,490).

That means that I only paid 2k difference for a brand new truck with no ping. 5.4l V8, ext cab, tow pkg, off road pkg, xlt, capt chairs, cd changer, 17" alum wheels w/265 tires, solid black with med grey int, rear sliding window, bed liner, etc. etc. etc.

I am very happy. I will miss my Silverado, but not the engine noises.

Quadrunner500. If you are out there, sorry man. I thought I got it fixed. I really am starting to think the engine noise is not a ping, but some kind of exhaust or maybe the poppet valves (fuel).

Anyway. Looks like my GM buddies will dis me for a while now! ha ha!

theliz · April 2000

I was considering a compact but have changed my mind--I'm going with the "real deal". Dbhull, that was a terrific post--keep them coming.

quadrunner500 · April 2000

Don't worry about me. For only $2K difference, I don't see how you can NOT trade. How many miles were on the Chevy?

cdean · April 2000

DBhull, you made a great deal. one year old vehicles are hard to get out of for less than 4K.

although i think you may have been hasty with getting rid of the silverado. I don't know about the new Vortecs, but the 1st generation Vortecs say in the owners manual that occaisional pinging is normal. have yet to hear anyone say that the truck didn't run as well or the life was decreased because of it.

barlitz · April 2000

You got a very good deal now do what I did, install superchip along with the K&N fipk and a cat back exhaust I went with gibson.I had a 99 lightning traded for 99 F250 LD and added those mods,I am now seeing 23 mpg on highway with about 18 in city not bad for a big truck and it will smoke any truck out there except for a lightning.Check out www.f150online.com there's tons of info on all sorts of stuff regarding your truck. Good Luck!

dbhull · April 2000

Ok everyone. Help me out here. I don't sign the papers on this new F150 until tomorrow, because my wife has not been in town, etc. I have put 74 miles on this bad boy and I am a little apprehensive. Please don't take this as a slam on the F150. I have been pretty impressed with most everything. But I am extremely gun shy of engine noises. The reason I am trading my Silverado is for engine noise undetermined.

I am hearing what sounds to be to be piston slap. Is this possible? I have conversed with a few other F150 5.4l owners who say it was fixed in April of 99. What is the story?

Also, after driving the 74 miles, maybe it is just me being used to my Silverado and how it runs, but the Silverado seems to have more romp to it, even when it was brand new. What do you all think?

Having second thoughts......

bigsnag · April 2000

What kinds of noises? I would think you are being paranoid. The problem IS supposed to be fixed, and with that few of miles it is very unlikely. I haven't heard of anyone that had the problem anywhere near that soon. As for the "romp", are the trucks equipped equally, i.e. both auto's, same rear end gear, etc?? If they are, then the feeling of more romp to the Silverado is only perceived. In fact, (no flames here), equally equipped, the Ford will outrun the Chevy, empty or loaded, although not by much.

dbhull · April 2000

The engine noise I hear sounds like dieseling, whether under acceleration or idling. Once at running temp, it seems to clear up.

The Ford does have a 3:55 ls where the Silverado has 3:73 ls. Will there be that much difference?
I know when pulling a load it will show, but I have seen very little difference in normal driving acceleration between the 3:73 and the 4:10 on the Silverado's.

Also, why did they stop offering a 3:73 diff on the F150's. That is the story I got from the Ford dealer anyway. This true?

bigsnag · April 2000

Don't know about the availability of a 3.73, but lower gears (3.73 instead of the 3.55) will make a difference, as will tire and wheel size. As for piston slap, people were only complaining about it happening for about 10-30 seconds after cold start up. Most only if it got below 32F that night.

obyone · April 2000

as a Silverado owner...given the choice between Ford and Toyota is a no brainer...especially if you aren't in the market for a heavy duty. While I don't think that Toyota should be rated no. 1 by Motor Trend..I do think they should be rated second...so take a long test drive in one before buying anything. Ford outrunning an equally equipped Silverado...I agree...if the Silverado had seven spark plugs...(not a slam) just according to Motor Trend...

bigsnag · April 2000

You might want to check that again. The latest Motor Trend had the Chevy outrunning the Ford, BUT, and this is a huge but, the Chevy had 4.10 gears and the Ford had 3.55's. Truck Trend (Motor Trend's cousin) pitted 4X4 trucks against each other and the Ford beat the Chevy in ALL acceleration tests, empty and loaded. They had equal gearing in that test.

quadrunner500 · April 2000

The other thing to keep in mind, the Motor Trend Silverado easily beat the Tundra in acceleration tests also. It's not unheard of, in fact it's well know that manufacturers have supplied cheats before. I find it hard to believe that adding a mere 15 horsepower drops nearly a full second off 0-60 and 1/4 ET. One full second is more like about 100 hp! So something is rotten in Denmark.

dbhull · April 2000

Well. I decided to hold off a little longer. I have my truck back now. Their offer still stands through the weekend.

I told them I was hesitant to buy without thinking on it over the weekend. That will give me time to ponder over each trucks strengths and weeknesses as well as the money outlay to see what I want to do.

Funny thing though. It is mid 70's here today and all the way home, even with the air on....no engine noise/ping or whatever it is. I started wondering....do you all think I possibly got some oil or possibly anti-seize on the plugs when I re-gapped them?

I will keep everyone posted.

Quadrunner500, that plug change still may end up having fixed this thing. I will give it more time and let you know.

page62 · April 2000

Check out some of Motor Trend's previous Cars of the Year. You might just find the Chevy Vega among them.

I'm afraid that one might find it difficult to use the terms "Motor Trend" and "serious automotive journalism" in the same sentence.

wfd146 · April 2000

You say that the current 5.4 F-150 would be close with a 4.7 Tundra? Not a chance! You are true that Toyota's claim on the 0-60 times, are against the smaller V8's in the Dodge 5.2, Ford 4.6, and the Chevy 4.8. But, did you see the difference in the numbers? It beat the Ford by almost 2 seconds! The Toyota may have 10 more horsepower than the Ford and Dodge, but not the Chevy and it still smoked it by a whole second! The 5.3 Chevy would beat the Toyota, but come on, 300hp! The same goes for the new 5.4, what did you say 305hp? Ok, I know your going to say that the Toyota is lighter, which is true, but the 4.7 still out performs all V8's in it's class. I am not, by no means, anti-Ford, they build a great truck, I just prefer the Tundra. Chevy and Dodge on the other hand, build the biggest P.O.S. on the road!

dbhull · April 2000

Sorry, but you are way off course here. No offense, but you don't even have the hp numbers correct. The 5.3l has 285 hp and 325 torque. The 5.4l has 260 hp and I believe 345 torque (unless it has increased from the 99 models.

Having driven all the trucks, including the Toyota, I felt that the Toyota only had better acceleration over the Dodge. Ford and GM had much better acceleration. I admit, I drove the bigger 1/2 ton engines, but in my opinion, to be the best or the fastest, you should use the biggest engines and the lowest geared differentials that each manufacture offer. Again, not knocking the Tundra, but it comes last if you compare it in that light.

g8tr · April 2000

I had a 99 GMC Sierra 4.8L auto w/3.42 rear. I had it bought back because of the vibration, pinging that could not be fixed, and a harsh shift from 2-3. I went back to Ford and bought an XLT F150 w/4.6 auto, 3.55 lim. slip, tow pkg, and some other goodies (nothing that affects performance). The engine in the Ford in noisier than the GMC but there is no slapping/tapping sounds from my truck. The piston slap problem has been fixed since last year. Could the noise be a result of the over-head cam configuration? I would also agree that the GMC had more get up and go but not enough to make a big difference.

I'm pretty happy so far w/my truck. I've had it about 6 wks. and have around 2500 miles and no problems at all. That is the way it should be. If your are uncertain about that particular truck, see if the dealer can find another one just like it. It may take a couple of days and they may charge you another $100 to go get it but it may be worth it. The Tundra is just a little small for my tastes (and $)

dbhull · April 2000

I 100% agree. I am pondering my options now to see what I want to do. I definitely think the Ford is a great truck. The Silverado is a great truck also, just has hit and miss quality problems with this new model year. The Tundra seems to be a great truck, there just isn't enough of it there for my liking and $. Dodge has a good truck also. They just seem to be content staying with older technology which means less power and less mpg than the new techology engines. I have heard and read about transmission problems with the Dodges as well. Not saying they all are bad and to stay away from them, but there seems to be a lot of transmission complaints of varying degrees.

I really liked the Ford I drove for the two days and I may still go back and make a deal on one, but what I REALLY want is just to keep my truck and have 100% security in knowing my ping is resolved. It just kills me knowing that each day I run it with the ping, it puts just that much extra wear on it.

Still deciding.......

barlitz · April 2000

I had 2 99 5.4 engines,lightning build date 5/99 and the F250 ebd 8/99.Didn't have piston slap in either engine and read it only effected 1% of all engines keep in mind they use the 5.4 in the F150's, superduties and expeditions.Which could mean close to a million engines per year.If you have any doubts about engine check out www.wardsauto.com it is rated as one of the 10 best engines in the world, better than the chevy,dodge or Toyotas 4.7 engine.I removed the stock air system all the way to the throttle body added new K&N fuel injection performance kit along with an open air filter the only noise I hear is air getting sucked into engine,I also increased exhaust from cat back duels out the rear , the best improvement I did is the superchip.I would recommend it for any truck.www.superchip.

barlitz · April 2000

that is www.superchips.com

Rocles · April 2000

dbhull,

Are you actually considering a Ford? It sounds as though you're content with the Silverado and just seem peeved with the "pinging".

BTW:
3.73 gears are still available for all Fords.
\
Roc

Toyota Tundra VS Ford F-150

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