Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Thats exactly what I was trying to say, and that it isn't a performance vehicle to begin with. This was in response to what Mariner said about Lexus selling the RX400h as a "performance" upgrade. To me, imo it a joke for most SUVs to be considered as "performance" vehicles anyway, especially one the handles/steers like a RX330. The analogy about an E500 compared to a E320 or a 545i compared to a 530i doesn't apply because those vehicles are much, much more roadworthy to begin with. Pointless comparison about how they drive, and I didn't knock the benefits of getting better gas mileage.
M
Huh. Lexus says it's a *performance upgrade*. Where are they saying it's a *performance vehicle*?
"The analogy about an E500 compared to a E320 or a 545i compared to a 530i doesn't apply because those vehicles are much, much more roadworthy to begin with. Pointless comparison about how they drive, and I didn't knock the benefits of getting better gas mileage."
Actually, no it's not worthless analogy. Why...because whether or not it's a sloppy handler are your opinions..and as I've said before your grossly over exagerated opinions(as usual). Someone could think a E320 is a sloppy handler compared to 530i or a M35. Then doesn't the E500 merely represent just additional horsepower added onto a sloppy handling sedan?
"Then doesn't the E500 merely represent just additional horsepower added onto a sloppy handling sedan?
"
Of course not because the upgrade from a E320 to a E500 consists of getting an adjustable air suspension and bigger wheels/tires and a 5-Series has a sport package for either engine. Does the RX400h include any suspension or wheel/tire upgrades?
M
Actually you miss the point(s) consistently.
The point of the E or 5-series is simple. Sloppy handling is all relative. I have read articles in C&D, Road & Track, Motor Trend, & Automobile. None say the RX330 is *dynamically challenged* or a *sloppy handler* compared to most or all other SUVs in it's class. I have driven it and X5s, and surely the X5 is a better handler, but the RX330 is nowhere near to being a sloppy handler for a SUV. The E-class and the 5-series were used because quite simply there probably are buyers who have thought the E-class is not the best handler out there. And go over to the RX board and see how many owners find their vehicle to be a *sloppy handler* or *dynamically challenged*. Phlease.
"...but I haven't yet seen a review or experienced anything close to what I have or the press has in the RX concerning its poor handling."
Oh please. as I said before, stop with the over-exagerations. I have read alot of RX reviews and none have said it is a *sloppy* handler relative to it's competition. To single out the RX330 for it's inherent SUV handling traits is ridiculous. There are a ton more SUVs that have more power and handle about the same as the RX400h, such as the ML500, Jeep Cherokee, Ford Explorer V8. The list goes on.
A sport suspension is optional on the bigger engined versions of the E-class and 5-series, correct? Do the basic E500 and 545i for example come with basically the same suspension setup as the lower models? Yes they do. How many sport package equipped cars do they sell? not many.
"Performance" and SUV usually don't go together, and they especially don't in a vehicle with the challenged dynamics like the RX."
Please. show me the articles that say it is more dynamically challenged than all other SUVs or even most other SUVs on the market! Yeah, I don't think so.
I believe the new RL, being the clear winner that it is, in this group of "luxury performance sedan" discussions, has finally left the folks with nothing else to talk about. So enter the SUV'S? Go figure! :-)
1. M45 (219 points)
2. RL (215 points)
3. GS430 (208 points)
4. E350 (202 points)
5. A6 (199 points)
6. 530i (198 points
7. STS (191 points)
8. S-type (181 points)
"The M45 rocks. Game over."
http://secure.grubbs.com/cardriver.pdf
What engines on the STS, S-type, and A6?
The RL, Mercedes and BMW all are six-cylinders...
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
In this case, they came up with $55K as a common denominator...
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
S-Type = V8
A6 = V8
Yes the RL, Mercedes, and Bimmer are all 6's, but that is because:
Acura has no 8...not C&D's fault.
Benz and BMW's 6's are priced comparably to the others' 8's.
It is a COMPARISON test, you should be able to COMPARE the vehicles within $10,000 of each other.
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
But I also see the logic behind pitting similarly priced vehicles against each other.
Who would want to spend all the money to get the V8 and then not get a sport package? Just about nobody.
Consider yourself corrected.
Yes, but the bar, as set by C&D, and the market, to some extent, was $55,000.
The Bimmer and Benz 8 cylinders are not attainable at that number.
If performance were the determining factor, then yeah I would say they should have compared all the 6 cylinder versions.
Of course, this would totally ignore the sales prices of the vehicles, which I'm sure is one of the main reasons (if not the main reason) to conduct a comparison test (to let consumers know which vehicle will give them more bang for their buck.)
Maybe they could have factored pricing into the "points" rating system, but that would have greatly diminished the scoring of the Mercedes and the BMW anyway, which I'm sure would be as decried, if not moreso, than the "why were 6's pitted against 8's?" issue.
Basically, they are comparing (for the sake of the dollar-conscience consumer) based on price, and not for the sake of the performance enthusiast for whom price is not an issue.
Anyone have a link to this report - I couldn't find it on their web site.
I do believe the M35 won that comparo as well, right?
I couldn't care less who wins these comparos... But, it is interesting to see what they say about each individual car, and what they consider its good and bad points compared to the competition..
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
I'd bet the real world price was at least $15K apart....
But, sure... from $62K to $70K, I'd take an M5 every time.. I'd have to live in it, though, at that price...
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
M
Are we clear now?
As usual my copy won't arrive until this time next week!
M
I will make one 100% prediction however. If Consumer Reports does a similar test the Infiniti will come in at or near the very bottom and Lexus will come in at or near the very top.
We can all belabor the nuances of exactly which cars are better forever. Suffice to say the competition is extremely keen nowadays.
What I garner from all of these tests is that the lead BMW always held is definitely fading. Maybe the 5 series 8 cyl. would have won the C&D comparo but by how much? Then what about the price difference (20%)?
Somewhat surprised the Acura came in second because on this and other forums it has been pretty well hammered relative the cited competition.
Maybe I should reconsider and add the RL to my list along with the M and the A6. The E could be my back up if I could find a good deal on the secondary market but I would be concerned with maintenance issues.
This statement is a little misleading. A 6 cylinder engine and 8 cylinder engine with equal technology and the same displacement will produce equal power.
The advantage of having more cylinders is that the power output should "theoretically" be smoother because there is a shorter time gap between cylinders firing the more cylinders there are. I say theoretically because there are a host of other factors.
For example, let's take a 3.5L V6 and a 3.5L V8 with the exact same technology. Let's assume each will produce max 280 HP and 235 ft/lb at 5k rpm.
Assuming that each engine has the same stroke to simplify this example, this means that the v6 will have a bigger bore than the v8.
In real world terms, the v6 will fire 6 times per second (it can be any time interval but I'm using 1 second here to make the point) and the v8 will fire 8 times per second. They produce the exact same power, but the v6 produces more power each time it fires and the v8 produces less power each time it fires but fires more often.
This is why the v8 should be smoother.
However, it's not that simple. A straight 6, for example, is perfectly balanced and has no need for a balancing shaft, which in turn robs power and causes variations in the torque curve depending upon the rpm. That's why BMW's straight 6 is legendary for its smoothness and smooth power acceleration -- no balancing shaft as found in equivalent v6's.
That's also the reason why everyone says BMW underrates its HP. I think the torque and HP ratings on BMW's straight 6s are on target. BMW just does a better job of getting the HP to the wheels and the ready acceleration at any point of the torque curve makes the straight 6 feel more powerful.
In contrast, the v8 is basically 2 I4s joined at the V. An I4 is an inherently unbalanced engine with primary and secondary vibrations and requires 2 balancer shafts. A v8 consisting solely of 2 I4s is called a "flat-planed" v8 and is one hell of a rough engine. To my knowledge, only Ferrari makes flat planed v8s.
All of the luxury cars we're discussing are "cross-planed" v8s, that is the 2 cylinder banks are offset at 90 degree angles to kill some of the inherent primary and secondary vibrations of 2 I4s. However, this has the side effect of robbing some power, which is why Ferrari goes with flat planed v8s, and which is also why Ferrari sounds like a jet taking off, too much NVH for the luxury car market.
Even though cross-planed v8s are quieter than flat-planed v8s, cross-planed v8s generate a certaing whirring growl when accelerating. Most people actually like that sound and associate it with a luxury car.
GM makes a 4.2 L straight 6 that is as powerful and as smooth as a v8, but of course a straight 6 is a long engine and would not fit under the hood of normal sized cars.
I think it would be possible to make a 4.2L or 4.3L v6 that is just as smooth and as powerful as the equivalent sized cross-planed v8. Although the cross-planed v8 should be smoother, a 60 degree v6 is an inherently smoother design with less secondary vibration. So both the v8 and v6 have their NVH advantages, the v8 smoother power delivery, the v6 less vibrations.
Engine design requires compromises of power, smoothness, efficiency, packaging and marketing. Both 6 and 8 cylinders can be designed to do the task required.
IMO, it's marketing that requires 8 cylinders for the lux market, because a smooth v6 with enough power should be as good as a v8.
On this basis alone, I'd give the nod to BMW.
I'll hold off my judgment until I try BMW's new engines. I haven't driven the e60 530 or the M, but I've driven the 645 a lot, and I have to believe that the 645 drives just about the same as the e60 5 series.
There are a lot of things I don't like about the e60 5 (it's ugly, the interior is cheap, the price increase was ridiculous), but as far as driveability goes, it is awesome. The 645, despite being bigger and heavier than my e36 3 series, is a far better road handler. And of course, I do love inline 6's.
I'm just glad that Infiniti is taking it to BMW. If the M steals enough sales from the 5 series, BMW will finally listen to its customers for a change and give us what we want instead of having overpaid suits make all their bonehead blunders.
i-drive?
raising prices and cheapening the interior?
forcing active steering on the sports package? (I actually like active steering but requiring it in the sports package?)
Who makes these idiotic decisions anyway?
I can't believe C&D asked for a Volvo S80 T6 to test. Since when did Volvo begin building performance sedans? True, the S80 is luxurious and certainly looks good, but it wouldn't stand a chance with the rest of this bunch. Volvo has a solid reputation for building safe, quiet solid cars. They have never had vehicles known for outstanding driving dynamics.
Moving on, anyway, I was wondering about the Chrysler 300 and the Lincoln LS. Neither were included in the comparison test. Both are luxury performance sedans, yet they are several thousand less than the competiton. The Lincoln LS is built on the same platform as the Jaguar S type, yet the LS is more of a performance sedan. Either it should have been included and the S type dropped, or both included.
Which brings me to the Chrysler 300. The 300C packs 340 horsepower, five more than the M45, and the 300C SRT-8 packs 425 horsepower, enough to blow the M45 by 90 horsepower. Either version should have been included in the test. It has the style and performance of the competition, without an astronomical price tag to boot.
comments?
ksso
Here are some comparison test ideas, that hopefully edmunds.com will do in the future
Wagon Comparison Test
Ford Freestyle/Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable
Volkswagen Passat
Subaru Legacy/Outback
Dodge Magnum
Mazda 6
Chevrolet Malibu Maxx
Luxury Wagon Comparison Test
Jaguar X-Type
Audi A4 Avant
Mercedes C Class
BMW 3 Series (Is that still in production)
Lexus IS 300 Sportcross
Large Sedan Comparison Test
Kia Amanti
Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego
Chrysler 300
Buick LeSabre/Park Avenue
Toyota Avalon
Hyundai XG350?
Cadillac Deville?
Lincoln Town Car?
Ford Crown Victoria/Mercury Grand Marquis
Sport Sedan Test
Chrysler 300C
Nissan Maxima
Buick Lacrosse
Pontiac Grand Prix
Acura TL?
Lexus IS300?
tell me what you think
Large sedans just dont make for interesting reading. They just arent for enthusiasts. Who wants to read about attack of the cop car vs. the blue-haired special?
Your sport sedans players just come from way to many segments to get thrown in together. No doubt the IS350, TL, G35, and possibly the CTS will square against the new 3, the C350, and the A4 3.2 at some point in the future.
The Lacrosse isnt a sports sedan, and neither is the GP. They fall into the "family sedan" catergory, and would be compared against players like the Camry and Accord.
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
The 300HP 5cylinder engine and the upgraded interior etc etc -- "might" have made it eligible in this crowd -- at least moreso than the S80 T6, IMHO.
Of course the S60 Type R that I test drove did demonstrate that trait that is just not acceptable in this segment -- "it BACKFIRED!"
I could hardly believe it.
I read up on the car here on edmunds and sure enough this "feature" has been noted here by others.
Comparing the S60 Type R to some of these cars doesn't seem that far fetched (or wouldn't have at that time). But the cars like the Infiniti M and the new A6 and the Acura RL have raised the lux bar with their new cars -- poor Volvo just couldn't keep up in that department.
When I got behind the wheel of the Volvo, however, I had not yet seen the 2005's from these other Premium guys -- so the Volvo could've possibly played around the fringes of the 2004's (of course some of these cars didn't even exist at that time).
Volvo needs a major upgrade to even run around the fringes of this pack as things currently stand.\
If, however, you ever have the chance to drive one of these high strung Volvos, do yourself a favor and take it out. The thing reminded me of what it might be like to stick a finger in a light socket.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
Does everything have to cater to the whims and fancies of car enthusiats? There's more average Joes out there who want safe, comfortable and affordable vehicles. Large sedans are comfortable, safe, and are as a whole affordable. Not everyone needs a gas guzzling SUV. There are quite a few people out there who appreciate cars. Family Sedans aren't for enthusiasts, yet Edmunds did a great test on them last year, and many people are still interested in sedans.
With regards to sport sedans, maybe the Lacrosse isn't. But the Grand Prix is. It's purpose is more biased towards sport than comfort.
And with wagons, the Freestyle is more wagon than SUV or minivan. It lacks the ground clearance of an SUV, and the height and sliding doors of a van. The Freestyle is undeniably a wagon, above everything else.
This is the Luxury Performance SEDANS discussion on the SEDANS comparisons board.
And I do think wagons interest a different segment than the cars we're discussing here.
1st Lexus GS430,
2nd Acura RL,
3rd Infiniti M45 Sport.
The one thing that all the reviewers readily agreed on was the overly intrusiveness of the electronic nanny for the GS. Infact they claimed it was so intrusive that in a couple bends during spirited driving the vehicle almost came to a stop. This is a system that also cannot be shut-off completely.
The reason why the bit caught my eye is becos I have a 2001 Millenia S and I never ever floor the pedal when trying to merge with traffic, the vehicle will stop!! This negates any thoughts on my part of spirited driving.(fortunately my mildly modified 1990 Toyota Celica GT-S satisfies those urges.) It appears the GS has picked up this nasty trait. Why would Lexus set out to build a luxury Sports Sedan and then while at it, neuter the very essence of what makes the vehicle a Sports Sedan?