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Hey Mark... I always appreciate your posts. Be sure to add the 215HP 525 to the mix because it sells almost as many as the 255HP 530. My thesis has been that we on this forum do not really represent the majority of LPS buyers and consequently what is important to this wise group might not be that important to the people who lease the majority of these fine automobiles.
Like it or not, auto mag writers are hired because they are "experts" but when making an emotional decision like buying a LPS who needs experts? This wise group continually thrashes them and I'm guessing here but... I doubt a majority of the leasing public read or care about their thoughts.
For the record I would choose the 545 (the 550 wasn't out then) barely over the M45 but I would choose the M35 barely over the 530/525 - which is what I actually did. I wonder how many LPS leasers actually test drove or seriously considered many alternates? I know that my local Infiniti dealer has received quite a few 3-year old BMW and MB trade-ins for the M but no Acuras, Audis, Cadillacs or Lexi, but that really doesn't prove anything.
The year before the G was released not one Infiniti dealer was profitable but then Ghosn introduced the G, FX and now the M and Infiniti dealers are profitable and rapidly expanding. He introduced daring designs (some are ugly), better management techniques, and improved production methods. He still needs a smash new Q45.
The company had the reasonable expectation that the M would not outsell the established brands (it takes alot of years to build the brand identity) but the fact that they are a serious contender considering their "heritage" says volumes about the Ghosn effect.
PS check out the older posts 546 and 548 for some other insightful thoughts.
My imagination leads me to believe in the 530xi stick -- that coupled with the fact that I do get to drive my wife's X3 3.0 with sport and manual and I extrapolate that the 530xi stick would only be a step up.
Yep, the V8 M and A6 and 5 are probably awesome. But of these three, my choice would have to be an "Sline" A6 since I won't have one without AWD.
I wonder if the Mercedes V8 4matic equipped cars are in the LPS class -- or are they the next step up from LPS if for no other reason than price?
Were funds unlimited, I would (based only on articles) choose the new Audi S8 -- but funds are not unlimited.
I read the editorial about diesel cars, especially the 4.2 Audi diesel, and for me that might be the ultimate LPS car if one were dumped into an A6 Sline outfitted version.
I was recently in Munich and at the BMW museum there certainly appears to be testimony enough to convince me that a diesel Bimmer would be the top dog, too.
Of course all the Mercedes diesel taxi's further support the notion that the right car for the time would be diesel, and one would think the right car as battery technology improves would be a diesel electric hybrid.
The LPS cars will be, I predict, the birthing place for these technologies in the US if we ever get our fuel quality up to par.
Top gear had a piece recently where a journalist drove from London to Wales and back (in traffic) -- a journey of 800 miles -- in an Audi A8L V8 diesel (4.2 twin turbo.)
The fuel tank in this land yacht was 19 gallons.
You do the math.
This was in a whale sized car -- hmm, what would happen if Audi, BMW and Mercedes offered such engines (in the US) in their A6, "5" and "E" class cars? 45, 50 or more MPG (using all the tricks the TV journalist used to achieve 40 MPG in an A8, of course.)
I would rather have the choice especially since I never use a nav. system.
The nav system is optional on the TL, you can easily buy the car without it.
I don't understand how that is important. I mean, the first thing I notice about a car is the model and the color. I can't easily see the seat type, the audio system type, whether the rear seats fold down, whether there are heaters in the seats, or what transmission it has. And I don't usually go inspecting cars that are on the road for these things. Sounds like a red herring to me.
Recently however one thing that can not be disputed is Monthly sales of BMW automobiles were up 44 percent, to 18,419 cars compared to 12,796 sold in November 2004. Why is that?
When I wrote TL, I really meant to say RL.
One has to get the nav. on the RL.
Circulate a petition of BMW owners who approve of the job Bangle has been doing and there would be many more than 12,800 people willing to sign, IMHO.
As for me, I am sitting here with my trusty Bic at the ready.
One has to be fast, however.
My goal is to humbly be among the first million signatures.
Ahem. Automatic or stick is included on several of the Acura's menus, too. But if you were referring to just the RL, true.
Being "fully loaded" is part of the Acura value proposition. You get all the goodies, whether you desire them or not, for much less than the price of a comparably equipped (insert Euro-model of choice here). But, if the (insert any model here) is not the car you actually want to own/drive, then it matters not. If you want a BMW/MB/Audi/Caddy you pay the price of admission. Plus options, of course...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Flash: "As of February 1, 2006, all Acura RL vehicles will be issued in celestial silver metallic with ebony leather interior.
No other color schemes will be available.
It is to be hoped that this decision will take away the potential anxiety of having to make a choice from so many confusing exterior colors and interior color schemes and will make it that much easier for the buyer of this most desirable vehicle. Once again we at Acura demonstrate that we are on the cutting edge of the automotive industry."
The RL having everything as standard does not strike me as having stuff rammed down my throat. It takes all kinds.
On the other hand, BMW seems to charge extra for almost everything.
To each his / her own.
I pretty well checked off all the option boxes on my A6 -- I cannot imagine NOT getting navigation (but then again I got my first one in 2000 and between my wife and I, we have had 6 cars with navigation.)
My wife caved in to my pressure to get the navi -- now when she calls me on the phone from Columbus or Dayton or Pittsburgh where she has driven on business, I hear the BMW lady's voice in the background telling her to "turn right in 800 feet. . ."
ABS, ESP, etc etc etc and soon navi systems will be in Neon's and Saturns and probably even the least expensive of all cars will at least offer them as relatively low cost options.
My bet is no dealer will stock a car without it (navi) in the not too distant future.
I guess if you don't care for navi, you can elect not to use it.
But, I do understand the point that will certainly follow: "why do I have to pay for stuff I don't use?"
Perhaps it will reach the point that the incremental cost of having navi will be considered a "nit" for most folks.
I remember when power steering was extra cost -- I actually ordered a car with power brakes and manual steering because I wanted the control that, at that time, could only be retained with unassisted steering.
We keep moving forward -- hopefully the move(s) is (are) positive.
Don't take my navi away!
Now that you mention it, the only cars in Acura's lineup that you don't have an option of transmission (in the States) are the RL and MDX. That's fairly impressive (even if not so much so the performance) for any brand. What other brand (in the States) besides BMW offers that?
If my navigation system died today, I'd have an exact replacement on the way by the weekend. :surprise: Despite the high price for the factory unit, I'm not one for having my dash chopped, cut, and rebuilt for aftermarket electronics. Not to mention losing the integration with the other electronics of the car.
Amen. So many people who've never experienced a navi simply can't understand how useful they can be. Now, if you live in Nebraska (where I'm originally from, of course), and drive on the same roads year after year, and go to the same other towns, year after year, you will probably never need or use a navi. However, for many people, navis would be very useful, whether they'll ever admit it, or not.
Now, after being quite the Acura guy for some time{still am for value to dollar sake.} I am really starting to drink the Audi Kool-Aid . Much better service from dealership, German handling, great interior. But I couldn't justify the 3.2 to go along with such a great driving experience. Mark in Cinci, does it have a lot more pickup than I think it does? {haven't driven yet}
I also don't think I could justify a German car loaded with everything either. But the Acura makes sense to me in that way. Plus, there electronics are far superior IMO. Thanks to all who respond :shades:
The 3.2 has done thus -- the power is now "ample."
Now, having had three Audi V8's, I am not telling you this is THAT quick. But, the 255HP 243 lb ft of torque feel, NOW at 10,000 miles, strong.
The sound that the 3.2 makes is "nearly" as sweet as the V8, too. Which is a bonus.
I can only urge you to test drive one of these extensively.
But, I would also urge you to test the M35x too.
I know the RL's electronics may be superior, but thus far, I do not have too much to complain about with the Audi's electronic compliment.
Not that sales figures listed from highest to lowest are all that revealing. . .because no context is (and maybe cannot be) given.
For instance, if X sells more than Y by 100% but has 3 times the number of retail outlets, well, that says one thing. If X sells more than Y and they have the same number of outlets, that says something else -- for instance.
As the numbers and ancillary information become more and more integrated, a truer picture of what sales figures suggest beyond the obvious emerges.
So with my trusty Google tool bar I searched for a few minutes and came up with this concatenation of "data."
==========
12/2005:
BMW global sales have surpassed those of Mercedes-Benz this year, according to Germany’s Automobilwoche. BMW expects to have sold 1.317 million cars by the end of the year, while Mercedes says it will have sold 1.23 million. So far, BMW sales are up 11 percent, and Mini sales are up 12 percent. Mercedes Group sales are up just 1 percent through September. Meanwhile, Audi is expected to surpass 1 million units globally in 2006 or 2007 for the first time in the brand’s history.
Audi sold almost 767,000 vehicles worldwide between January and November, an increase of 8.8 percent on the corresponding prior-year period. Around 69,700 vehicles were handed over to their new owners in November, 2.0 percent fewer than in the same month last year. However, 2004 saw the market launch of the Audi A4 in November and, before that, the A3 Sportback. Both of these launches ensured an exceptionally strong November in 2004.
More than 23,000 vehicles were handed over to customers in Germany in the past month (up 2.5 percent; November 2004: 22,458). The sales volume up to the end of November therefore totalled around 230,500 vehicles, 8.5 percent more than in the same period in 2004 (January to November 2004: 212,483).
The best November sales figures ever were recorded in the USA: a total of 7,909 vehicles were sold, representing an increase of 15 percent on last year (November 2004: 6,879). The Audi brand consequently sold 74,224 vehicles in the USA in the period January to November. This represents an increase of 5.6 percent on the previous year (January – November 2004: 70,267).
“A particularly pleasing aspect of the figures is that they represent increasing market shares. With 4.2 percent in Western Europe, we have achieved a record market share for the Audi brand,” commented Ralph Weyler, AUDI AG Board Member for Marketing and Sales. “In Germany, too, we are 0.4 percentage points better off than last year, and have attained a market share of 7.5 percent.”
Now, somewhere, there must be a current data point about the "market share" of these three brands in Germany. I thought I had read somewhere that these three brands went [non-permissible content removed]-for-tat against each other, recently with Audi beating BMW who then beat Audi and so forth at the expense of Mercedes.
Audi includes Audi, BMW includes Mini, who knows what Mercedes includes. The point is, should Audi be lumped in with VW to indicate the broader top to bottom sales (as does BMW when it lumps Mini in with "regular" BMW)?
Nothing, presumably would be proven by such a snapshot of market share -- but it seems to me that it would at the very least be an interesting exercise.
Of course, then it would be interesting to note Cadillac's US sales against, for example, the BMW's and somehow come up with a market share figure of these brands.
Then, to fully boggle the mind, how about a comparison of # of dealerships, etc to determine just how bad things REALLY are at the General.
Note: I still rather doubt that numbers alone will prove that one is "better" than the other, but it would do wonders in helping understand the likely "survivability" of, say, GM, in a given market, geography and segment.
Mind you, I'm not saying that I agree with this, although I do have a Garmin that I move among our 3 cars & that I find adequate to the task. It's quite possible that I would opt for a factory system if I were to buy an LPS tomorrow - mainly, because they look so cool. But this is a common POV among the tech-oriented web sites, & it is something to think about for those of us who buy (as opposed to lease) our cars & hang onto them (as I do) for 5+ years. Perhaps we long-termers might be better off with a low-cost (my c330 cost $550) non-built-in solution.
Unless someone was being sarcastic to make a point (like: "Oh yeah. You're the expert!"), you will find that nobody on this thread has ever come out and declared himself to be an expert on any of the cars we talk about.
:confuse:
I'm an expert, but I'm just not sure on what?? That's a fact!!
Just waiting for the defensive denials to come in....
Now if I can just set aside a little more time to comprehend Mark's last post.....GEEZ....and I thought I was good with numbers... IT Takes an EXPERT I guess!
I am always amazed at how much time some people here have to write all this stuff. I hardly have time to read it all between working and enjoying driving the greatest LPS (obviously IMHO...and I am an expert on giving my HOs) on the market--the magnificent Infiniti M35x! (with regards to Hpowders passionate eloquence)
(from a semi-professional forum lurker)
:mad: :surprise: :P :confuse:
He did refer to some of us as "self-declared experts." Nobody I know.
Passionate eloquence. Yes!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
That's what makes this thread successful.
The fact that a few posters can actually express that passion with prose that borders on eloquent poetry is the icing on the cake for me.
Ralph Waldo Emerson once stated..."Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring."
This is also why there are such passionate disagreements between certain Europhiles and Lexicans (the "hard and jarrings" versus the "soft and squishys"?--actually, that sounds denigrating to Lexus fans, it is not intended as such) They are all arguing from completely different viewpoints.
Of course, there are some things we can all agree on--such as the Pontiac Aztec. No vehicle ever so well proved the adage: "Beauty may be only skin deep, but ugly goes to the bone."
Edit: BTW, I personally do not have disdain for CR (as a subscriber). It is a valuable (to me) tool in certain decisions, but it is only a tool.
Well you know how I feel about Aston-Martins! There is nothing even remotely similar to Bangle's work present on any Aston-Martin design IMO. The DB9 may not be a bold and brash as these new BMWs, but it is a whole lot prettier and much more cohesive, IMO. That said I think the best looking new-style BMW is the 6-Series.
M
Oh sorry, forgot. That means every RL is more or less alike then huh. Well I guess you could get that A-spec package or whatever they call it to spice (uglify imo) it up a little.
M
All I'm saying is that every other European car out there isn't equipped the same for those who may buy a used one down the road one day. No big deal. IMO it renders Acuras great used car buys because you know what you're going to be getting down the road, while on Euro cars each one is different. However when buying new you can get whatever you like on one of the Euros though you'd have to order/wait for it, but still. Both of these concepts have legs considering how all these brands sell a lot of cars.
I mean it could be said that Acura throws all this stuff on as standard on a car like the RL to make up for other things it lacks. For a car that looks like a really nice Accord I think they should, but that is just my take.
M
Yeah I know. All true, but even with their value proposition they really can't get any traction beyond the TL's segment. I think that once you start reaching into upper 40 lower 50K territory people want they want and "value" starts to take on a different meaning. Here most folks have the money to buy what they want and the typical "value" question isn't so dominate as it is one level down. Value just doesn't mean features per dollar anymore the higher up in $$$ you go, IMO. If it did the RL would sell a lot better.
M
Again, with the interior, it is top tier, but it has the worst (usable) space in the segment and the smallest trunk. And the extreme few options that you can get are just "dealer add-ons." When you're spending this kind of money, you want stuff put on at the factory, not some hack at a dealership. It just increases the risk of damage to your vehicle and makes for unnecessary trips to the dealer and time without your car to have the parts installed. But I digress...
The RL seems to fill a niche (that not many people want) of Personal Luxury Sedans. I'd call it a "tweener," but the TL is their tweener as it slots in between the BMW 3 and 5 along with their TSX that slots between the Mercedes C and E. They put the RL in a slot that was already filled. IMO, they should've slotted it between the 5 and 7/E and S. That formula was a smash hit for Infiniti.
Success = (5 + 7) / (E + S) * (A6 + A8) - RL :P
Seems you have the Infiniti M confused with the BMW 5 series.
Honest mistake.
hpowders - 31
jjacura - 10
markcincinnati - 7 (tops for the most words)
nebraskaguy - 6
merc1 - 6
tayl0rd - 5
drtravel - 5
designman - 4
docnuken - 4
everybody else - 22
Thanks to hpowders for his entertainment and markcincinnati for his insights - what would this group be without them? Maybe the 9 of us could be put on a sitcom with Bob Newhart as our therapist because we all definitely need one.
Let the spin begin...
Your personal choices depend on how you are wired to see the world. IMO, I believe problems occur when our choices are proven to be poor due to various degrees of failure with our purchases - our bubbles are burst. The majority of BMW owners have wonderful ownership/driving experiences, as do MB, Audi, Lexus, etc. In my case, my BMW and former MB experiences have been 1st-class.
Some (a statistically small sample) owners of each of these marques regret their purchases, although I will admit that MB of late has had to reign in their maintenance costs due to reliability issues. Lexus is the king of trouble-free motoring, but also excitement-free motoring in the minds of many
One thing these marques can control, and I'm guessing that Lexus does a better job of this, is the total ownership experience. From top to bottom, it comes down to PEOPLE and their customer philosophies. No room for arrogance in today's LPS market, as that will send a buyer running to the competition faster than you can say "screw you".
This value thing would be tough to get ten people in a room to agree upon, IMO.
I didn't realize I have posted so frequently!
But that new dude, Everybody Else, comes in a close second with 22 posts!
We don't need any therapists.
We get emotional but there's nothing wrong with that.
I know I have learned a heck of a lot and even want to test the A6 and RL to see where
Markcincinnati and Jjacura are coming from.
Edmunds Forums. Now that's entertainment!!
Audi of America (and Audi AG) are having their best year ever (compared to themselves.)
And, my friend tells me that Audi has a marginally higher market share than BMW (in the Fatherland) -- I am still trying to find out if this is true.
The BMW has been around "forever" in comparison with the Infiniti -- yet it (the M), based on growth rate, certainly seems to be coming out of nowhere and making BMW look over its shoulder to see who is gaining.
Once again, another magazine, MT, in their COTY issue (just out) lauds the M (and somewhere in their prose says something to the effect it is "nipping at BMW's heels.")
I would say that qualifies Infiniti to be proclaimed a blazing success -- when put in the context by our fellow poster tayl0rd.
BMW, for most of us, may still be the holy grail for any one of several legitimate reasons -- but in some respects I have to agree with some of the "pro car writers" who (even while proclaiming the BMW as a great sports lux sedan) say BMW is in some respects resting (or driving) on its laurels.
Competition surely improves the breed -- however, we are where we are today and everyone seems poised to be a legitimate threat to BMW.
Of course, I am in no way counting BMW out -- just when they seem to have been leapfrogged, BMW virtually always fights back with another step forward distancing themselves from the competition.
These days, however, it seems that BMW's recent attempts have only managed to pull ahead about a half step, as witnessed by the success of the M both in sales and in publicity.
One last thing, the new RS4 was recently reviewed on the TV show "Top Gear" -- and the video editor basically says, "Audis have always been great cars, but in many ways were 'fairly terrible' when compared to similarly priced cars like the BMW M's." Then, after some 13 minutes of flogging the RS4 around France, he proclaims, "this car is not only better than the Bimmer it is faster around the track than the Cayman."
Of course, BMW will soon fight back with its own M3 and we'll see if Audi retains its place as [temporary] King of the Hill (according to Top Gear, that is.)
Like I said -- a very interesting time to be enjoying these LPS and PS cars, as they have all honed in on being better BMW's (not without some successes.)
Play on. :shades:
One of the greatest strides forward of any automaker.
Too bad Lexus couldn't improve upon the GS in a similar way.
Proclaiming the 2006 GS as a '5 killer" has to be one of the stupidest statements made all year by an auto executive.
Lexus should be embarrassed.