Luxury Performance Sedans

bartalk3 · May 2006

As often noted, diesel has a PR problem in this country because: a) people associate it with trucks; b) GM ruined its reputation by producing noisy, smelly, smoky, unreliable diesels in the, what, '70s? Plus they don't really know what it is and know that there aren't many diesel pumps in the gas stations they visit. Plus diesel is expensive, so people figure, what's the advantage?

bocatrip · May 2006

Let's think Toyota versus Nissan. Which car is top in it's class for quality control and overall customer satisfaction? Ok... Now let's do the same for Lexus and Infiniti. I own an Infiniti and let me say that it is a reliable car. However, after all the feedback, reading, and general observations I get from the Lexus population, I would be thinking towards Toyota/Lexus for my next purchase... in this case........ The GS300. I know the M35 has more power and handling pluses..HOwever, I think Toyota Motors has something going for it that no other manufacturer can get right. Loyalty, dedication to the product, and quality control that Nissan has never gotten quite right. Of course this is just my opinion. I'm going Lexus for my next choice. In this case.. the GS300 of GS350 when it arrives.

stevekilburn · May 2006

very smart mariner7, Lexus should immediately hire people like you and promote you to Vice-presidentship. Then you should rush to make lEXUS ever softer so that it achieves sales nirvana.

Great job mariner.

stevekilburn · May 2006

Well, LS is way cut-rate thats true. GS is priced okay, they just need to inject pizzaz, passion, sexy styling, like they did for IS.

lexusguy · May 2006

If you're buying a GS just because its reliable, you're missing out. According to CR, the M is Infiniti's most reliable car, matching the GS.

Incidentally, the M is also their top rated luxury sedan, while the GS is rated a rather pathetic 12th place, just two places from the bottom of the pack, and well below the LS, Mercedes S and E classes, 5 series, A6 and A8, STS, RL, and Jag XJ. Even the S-type, a car which basically no one likes, still managed to out rank the GS. If CR thinks your car is too boring for a good score, something is seriously wrong.

Consider your Toyota v Nissan analogy. If the Altima were just as reliable as the Camry, would you still buy a Camry? The M is just as reliable as the GS. Why buy a GS?

bocatrip · May 2006

Reliability is just one factor in considering a Lexus. I feel that overall, body integrety and quality of materials and craftmanship is superior for the Lexus. If the M35 is anything like the G35 with regards to rattles, squeaks, weak paint, eating up tires(Coupe) and other annoying issues, I will go Lexus. I understand that even Lexus may have some issues and overall is not absolutely perfect,however it seems to be far superior to Nissan with regards to building a more solid car. Consumer Reports seems to love Lexus overall with most past models. Let's not forget that the M is a new car. The G35 got great reviews when it first came out. Check out how many TSBs (Technical Service Bulletins) this car has had. I think over 50 since it's inception. My girlfriend just bought a 06 G35 and they still don't get it right. It is a car that won't fail as far as break downs, but the quality is just not there compared to Toyota/Lexus. The GS300 might have failed in it's class compared to other cars with regards to performance, handling, and being oversophisticated with technology that limits it in those same areas, but I'm sure Lexus maybe rethinking that for it's future models. Well I guess though, Lexus is supposed to be Luxo and they were trying to make it competitive to the sportiness of Infiniti with the GS300/4430 and failed.

markcincinnati · May 2006

Recent ( 5+ years back) TDI's 7,500 miles between changes.

Newer (less than 2 years back or so) TDI's 10,000 miles between changes.

Diesel FAQ's Here

markcincinnati · May 2006

In 2002, I first drove an Audi A4 2.5TDI with all the near lux stuff and a 6 speed transmission.

Initially, I had no clue the car had anything other than the then current 3.0 gas engine -- except the car was quite a bit stronger off the line (must be gearing I thought.)

I did find, quickly (by asking), that I was driving a turbo diesel. Inside the car there was virtually NO WAY to tell. No smell, sound, smoke, etc.

Most of our local "quick stops" have at least one diesel nozzle (usually more.)

Here in SW Ohio, diesel costs LESS than Premium Juice which most of these LPS car require.

The published specs for "like" performance diesels from Audi, BMW and Mercedes, to name three, vs their gasoline counterparts generally shows the diesel versions accelerate slightly quicker and get at least 22% better mileage per gallon.

The advantages are manifold.

From a broader perspective, the adoption of diesel will have an initially unitended consequence: it will slow the outflow of money from "us" to middle eastern countries.

Some non policital (economic, i.e.) types claim that oil money from "us" to middle eastern countries provides part of the requisite funding for all kinds of activities -- and some of those activities are "not helpful" to either economic or political "progress."

Even broader, the adoption as a first step of diesels in LPS cars will ultimately trickle to the rank and file cars and serve to move us toward engergy independance and, according to the EPA, cleaner air to breath.

What's the advantage?

The question might be, "what's the disadvantage?"

I submit it must begin in our "sought after" cars -- LPS cars. Grass roots diesel apparently has not worked, of course there is some merit to the argument that it hasn't been tried.

Again, go here:

All You Need to Know about Why Diesel?

merc1 · May 2006

Oh I remember your position on the mattter very well. We've agreed on that before because I too think thats why the GS just doesn't sell good past that first year or so and look its happening again. Lexus buyers just don't care about sport at this level or above. Now the new IS is such an improvement compared to the previous car that it might be a while before it does a GS-like drop-off, but a new G35 is coming this fall so we'll see.

M

mariner7 · May 2006

GS is noticably smaller and lighter than its 3 main competitors. Relative lack of room would not be a deterrent to BMW's, but it'd be a bigger deal at Lexus.

The main reason for being smaller and lighter is to have more agility. But the "world class" engineering at Lexus fails in this score; M and 5 beat it handily in the slalom. So GS pays the penalty without gaining any benefits.

mariner7 · May 2006

The disappointing sales performance of GS and RL, just one year after their debuts, should teach more lessons. (I'd say M is the success for several reasons. One, looks like it's going to top the other 2 in the sales. Two, it's way ahead of projected sales. Three, according to KBB, it's tops for resale value for any luxury car, not just in its class.)

Lesson #1: according to Automobile, Honda & Toyota are preparing V8 NSX & Supra and V10 NSX & LSA. I hope for their sake, these are just trial ballons. They're going to make the first NSX look like a runaway horse sales wise. If they have a hard time competing against sports sedans from MB and BMW, should they even think about the thoroughbreds from Ferrari and Porsche?

But Nissan going ahead with the GT-R is different. One, GT-R is already in the Nissan repertoire for decades, with a huge following, in Japan and abroad; it's just continuing a tradition. Two, it'll use an engine and platform already available, albeit much modified. Three, it'll cost half the projected price of V10 NSX or LFA.

Even a V8 Supra is an extravaganza. It'll probably cost twice the price of 350Z, I don't think there will be many takers. Oh, for these Lexus fans who think the market will gladly pay for the supposedly superior Toyota build, and Toyota can demand any price it wants! Let me remind you, the average transaction price of M is above GS, according to WSJ.

Lesson #2: all this glamour for Lexus to establish a performance division, akin AMG and BMW M. Should Lexus have more success against E350 and 530i before worrying about E55 and M5? Frankly, Infiniti fans are much more realistic, I hardly heard any glamour for a performance division.

merc1 · May 2006

GS is noticably smaller and lighter than its 3 main competitors. Relative lack of room would not be a deterrent to BMW's, but it'd be a bigger deal at Lexus.

Well they did say they were going after the 5-Series to some degree, but they forgot the chassis part it seems.

It appears that the same is true of the IS vs. the 3-Series. Luxurious these Lexi are for sure, but the "sport" part that BMW fans love is sorely missing.

M

mariner7 · May 2006

I agree, they were targeting BMW, and didn't get the chassis part right. Ironically, BMW was going in the opposite direction, making their cars bigger, without sacrificing anything to the competition. Now 3 and 5 are not smaller and lighter than C and E.

Merc1, there's another explanation for why GS is just about the smallest in its class. It has to share a platform with IS. But Infiniti G and M do the same. Interestingly enough, M is considerably larger than GS, current G is a little bit lighter than IS. New and old G's are about the size. So it seems Infiniti is more adept at stretching one platform for different models than Lexus. BTW, same thing is true for BMW: 5 is considerably heavier than GS, but 3 is a little lighter than IS.

shipo · May 2006

"BTW, same thing is true for BMW: 5 is considerably heavier than GS, but 3 is a little lighter than IS."

Errr, are you sure about that? From what I've seen the GS 300 is 40 or so pounds heavier than the 530i (in automatic trim, the manual 530i is another 22 pounds lighter still). True the 550i is indeed heavier than the GS430 regardless of transmission type, but only by 58 (Manual) and 69 (Automatic) pounds, which isn't what I'd call "considerably heavier" by any stretch of the imagination.

Regarding the 3-Series vs. the IS, the IS 350 is 77 pounds heavier than the 330i when both are equipped with Automatic transmissions (which also means that it's heavier than the 530iA too) and a more significant 110 pounds heavier than the 330i with three pedals under the dash.

Best Regards,
Shipo

corvettefan427 · May 2006

So why wasn't the Cadillac STS included in this forum?

jjacura · May 2006

Hello Merc1...good to see recognizable names in this forum...it's been a while.... You still setting Lexus guy straight on the benefits of German car ownership?

pat · May 2006

Because no one showed any interest in it. Do you want the STS or the STS-V here? I can't add both, but I'm happy to add either that you want included.

2001gs430 · May 2006

I think you're right on the money regarding why someone would purchase a Lexus/Toyota. If you're looking at competing models such as Corolla/Sentra, Camry/Maxima/Altima, FX/RX or GS/M, the competition always seem better on paper. However, one would choose to buy Lexus if the intention is to "buy and hold" beyond the bumper to bumper warranty period. It's true the competition vehicles may slalom better or go faster at the extreme, but IMO, this also contributes to them breaking down sooner and more often. Furthermore, the performance excitement often wear off as soon as someone has a new car on the market with better engine/handling, and this always would be the case regardless of brand...
Then there is the R&D aspect that I believe Toyota/Lexus does not cut any corners when it comes to designing and assembling of their vehicles. This has enable them to achieve a very good consistency of reliability of their vehicles.

2001gs430 · May 2006

lexusguy,
Are you sure that the M is as reliable as the GS in the long run? In term of sales,I think the GS will do much better when the line up renewal is complete with the new engines; the current models are basically new body with carry over engines from previous gen with the exception of the GS450h.
In the past, when the current Altima and Maxima were introduced, I often thought that these cars were going to kill the Camry and Accord sales, but that has not happened.

lexusguy · May 2006

Infiniti is the best candidate of Japan's luxury marquees for an inhouse tuner, but the brand still has a lot of work to do in terms of filling out their lineup of regular cars (and selling them outside of the US) before they are ready to take that next step.

I think that perhaps a "Nismo" (or whatever they would call it) Infiniti GT-R would be a great car to preview a tuner division for Infiniti, similar to what the BMW M1 did way back in the late '70s. Then as with the M635CSi several years later, Infiniti could start offering Nismo tuned regular Infinitis. Unfortunately the GT-R is going to be sold as a Nissan here, so that's not going to happen.

Don't underestimate Supra. While the Skyline GT-R is probably Japan's most famous sports car, Americans have only ever driven one in Gran Turismo. Unlike the forgotten Mitsubishi 3000GT and RX-7, the final '93-'98 Supra TT is still very popular, and their resale values are absolutely incredible. The next Supra and Skyline will probably have similar prices, so it could be a very interesting fight.

lexusguy · May 2006

"Merc1, there's another explanation for why GS is just about the smallest in its class. It has to share a platform with IS. But Infiniti G and M do the same. Interestingly enough, M is considerably larger than GS, current G is a little bit lighter than IS. New and old G's are about the size. So it seems Infiniti is more adept at stretching one platform for different models than Lexus."

I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure Lexus developed their new platform for the GS and then cut it down for the IS. The G and M are the other way around. The FM platform was already under the G and FX, and Infiniti stretched it and made the FM-"L" platform for the M.

lexusguy · May 2006

Its too early to make that kind of call on the M. Historically the GS has been an incredibly well made car (3rd place behind LS and SC as "world's best") so obviously Infiniti would have their work cut out for them to match that kind of record, but so far the results for M look very good (and much better than the G35).

"the current models are basically new body with carry over engines from previous gen with the exception of the GS450h."

Not true. While the V8 is a carry over, the GS300 uses a brand new 3.0L V6, (which will soon disappear and never be heard from again) not the vintage 3.0L straight six. If all the GS350 and 460 do is make the car go a bit faster, I'm not sure that sales will improve all that much. The GS has problems, but acceleration isn't really one of them (other than on perhaps the GS300 AWD).

"In the past, when the current Altima and Maxima were introduced, I often thought that these cars were going to kill the Camry and Accord sales"

Really? While the Altima has done well, it's much to interesting to be a mainstream hit like Camry. The general public wants transport drones, and thats not what the '02+ Altima is. The Maxima is just too wierd, and the interior too awful to really go anywhere.

lexusguy · May 2006

I have yet to be swayed

art234 · May 2006

I am in the process of replacing 2 vehicles.

Yesterday I ordered an RX400H to replace an Infiniti G35X--the G was too small, and burned WAY too much gas for size-our average was 17mpg when wife drove, and 18.5 when I drove.

Now I am replacing a 2003 Murano with a sedan (switcheroo). The leading candidate is th M35X, followed by the GS300AWD-the fuel economy difference, however is startling.

Question--what are the problems with the GS, and other than fuel economy, is there an advantage to the GS? When will the 3.5 be available? I guess I should wait...I'd love another hybrid, but MUST have AWD, and the GS hybrid is RWD only.

merc1 · May 2006

You still setting Lexus guy straight on the benefits of German car ownership?

Nah, just making sure the Germans are fairly represented!

M

lexusguy · May 2006

All of the diesel fans on the board will definitely not want to miss this video:

http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=7304&categoryId=23

markcincinnati · May 2006

Great video, great education for those of us on this side of the Atlantic.

My guess is, it will be "under" seen and even less appreciated.

All three of these "premium" sedans w/TDI motivation are (or should be) ample evidence that we need to encourage the importation of these to the US, the development of similar approaches by US (and other) manufacturers, etc.

Moreover, the next test should be something from the perspective of comparing these cars to their most similar gasoline powered siblings.

Furthermore, since Audi, BMW and Mercedes make both 2WD and AWD versions, why not test cars that have similar power delivery?

One could surely argue that the Audi A6 2WD would probably fare poorly, but "in context" (and with an emphasis on the comparison of the gas vs diesel versions), the test should have merit in suggesting how far we would quickly come would many cars be offered here in NA with TDI engines.

Once again, the "60 minutes" or "Dateline" TV magazines spent time dwelling on E85 (85% alcohol, 15% gasoline) fuel with nary a mention of diesles.

We need to spend time edumacating the retail car customers about:

Diesel fueled cars
Gasoline fueled cars
Hybrid fueled/powered cars
Multi fueled cars
Other fueled cars

We've spend so much energy on Hybrid and now e85, it seems it is time to give the other choices "equal time."

If we but brought these three cars tested in the video to the US in diesel form AND advertised them as being "quicker, less money to buy, less cost to fuel and with greater mileage per gallon and greater durability all wrapped up in one current technology package," we could make a huge dent in our foreign oil bill. And, one would extrapolate, perhaps lower our cost to drive a mile.

Maybe Tobin Smith IS correct "not until we reach $90 per barrel."

To retain $3.00 per gallon fuel we must first "feel the pain" of $5.00 per gallon. . . .or words to that effect. :surprise:

drtravel · May 2006

GM conducted a survey evaluating the public's perceived ownership experience and their actual ownership experience for a wide variety of cars. The MB has one of the highest perceived ownership experience values but one of the lowest actual ownership experiences - meaning that before purchasing a MB people had high expectations but were very disappointed with their actual ownership. BMW had a similar disconnect but it was MUCH less dramatic. Lexus had both high perceived and actual ownership experiences meaning that purchasers pretty much got what they expected. The same can be said about Cadillac although these respondents had average expectations and that's what Cadillac delivered.

But what disturbed GM was Hyundai. People rated the car very low for perceived ownership experience but the car received very high marks for the actual ownership experience. People expected junk but got quality. This brings back memories of how the public first perceived Japanese cars 40 or so years ago and look what happened. So GM's fear is that Hyundai will turn into another Toyota with the American public. If Hyundai succeeds isn't it only a matter of time until they go upscale and try to compete in this market segment?

merc1 · May 2006

I'm not sure why Autospies posted that Video, its about 18 months old.

M

markcincinnati · May 2006

Yes, I noted the description of the Audi where the year mentioned was 2004. However, the subject, here on this side of the Atlantic, may now be far more relevant since both Katrina and the recent pump price run up.

I received a letter from my representative in Congress yesterday. In the letter -- devoted to the subject of "high gas prices" -- the representative empathized with "my pain at the pump." Furthermore, I was assured what was being done to make sure we weren't the victims of price fixing, etc etc etc.

No mention of diesel, some mention of hybrids and several assurances that "this, that and the other" thing were being investigated.

You know the type:

". . .one of these days, in the future [perhaps], it is our sincere belief that we won't have to address questions like the ones being asked of us now. Perhaps our children's children's children will be able to rest assured in the notion that despite the current conditions, we can confidently say (with our heads held high): The Future is Ahead. Thank you for your support.

Note: Please do not reply to this email since this is an unmonitored box, see my website for instructions on how to send a message that will be read (not by me, but by someone) -- thank you."

Meanwhile, back at the gas pump. . . .

lexusguy · May 2006

The Sonata and Azera have what it takes to be mainstream hits (and they are much better cars than the Malibu and Impala). They arent quite as good as Camry and Avalon, but the chasm that seperated Hyundai's last gen Sonata and XG350 from Toyota has closed to a pretty small gap.

Being able to compete on level ground with Accord and Camry and having a credible LPS are two entirely different things, though. For one thing, the market is already pretty saturated, with 8 well established brands, and three more players on the sidelines (Lincoln, Volvo, Saab).

Then there's the matter of the badge, and multiple cars to support it. Even at the speed at which Hyundai is improving, developing a luxury brand from scratch would still take decades. Hyundai is still trying to figure out how to seperate itself from Kia, so I dont think Lexus or BMW have any reason to be worried.

tayl0rd · May 2006

... I dont think Lexus or BMW have any reason to be worried.

Wasn't it just a handful of years ago that people were saying the same thing about Toyota and Honda? Now Hyundai is a genuine threat. I wouldn't be so cavalier about them entering the LPS segment. They're pretty close to the mark on the "L" portion. They just need to invest some money in the "P" quotient.

drtravel · May 2006

Wasn't it just three handful of years ago that BMW and MB didn't give any credence to the Japanese entry into the luxury market. i.e. Acura, then Lexus and Infiniti.

How did that turn out for them?

merc1 · May 2006

Well I don't think it is that as cut and dry as implied. BMW for one has never really had to compete directly with Lexus until now and argubly Lexus still doesn't build a true BMW alternative. Lexus builds another luxury car alternative moreso than a real threat to BMW compared to say the threat that Lexus has been towards Mercedes. Lexus has had a much larger impact on Mercedes than BMW. With their cars Lexus has taken far more from Mercedes than BMW especially with their star LS model. People who buy BMWs for the right reasons (IMO, anything other than just status) still don't seem to care about Lexuses for various reasons.

Acura hasn't done much of anything to anyone and they aren't even take seriously past the TL so I hardly think BMW or Mercedes considers Acura much of anything besides a entry-level competitor that is only sold in one market. Until Acura shifts the drive wheels and sells and engine with more than 6 holes they're still sitting on the porch and the Honda "Legend" (our Acura RL) takes a serious backseat to the Europeans in other markets all across the world. It is pretty much an afterthought.

Infinti has never meant much either until the G35 and now the M35/M45. If BMW has anything to worry about in this market it would be Infiniti, not Lexus and certainly not Acura.

I think also you have to rember that BMW and MB are global brands and they tend to think on that level a lot and none of the Japanese brands have made a dent or in the case of Acura and Infiniti aren't even sold much of anywhere else to matter. Lexus has shown for the same amount of years they've been here that they haven't been able to cut it in Europe.

If anything I think if the Koreans enter this segment they'll flop very badly because their regular cars aren't up to the best of from Japan and they'll be even harder pressed to match the Germans at anything beyond reliability. This is a much harder segment to crack than the Camry/Accord segment IMO and some of the Japanese (Acura and to a degree Lexus) aren't really getting the job done either.

Then again the Koreans could try to crash this segment with a comparable car for thousands less, that might net a few sales but this crowd won't take the cars seriously enough to sustain them in the market.

M

tayl0rd · May 2006

Acura's still not garnering much respect on the luxury scene, but Lexus is doing quite nicely and Infiniti is making moves.

lexusguy · May 2006

Well said, I agree completely. Yes, 20 years ago the established players thought Japan would be no real threat. The luxury market in 1986 and the luxury market in 2006 are very different though. 20 years ago, the "established players" were BMW and Mercedes. Audi was a tiny bit-player in the market, and Jaguar was nearly killed by horrendous quality issues. Cadillac and Lincoln were jokes. (Lincoln pretty much still is, but Cadillac is competing, at least on the level of the C and E).

The Legend, LS and ES worked pretty much immediately, but Acura and Lexus struggled for years to move their other products. Who remembers the Vigor, or the SLX? How about Infiniti's M30 or J30?

Hyundai doesn't have the engines, transmissions, platforms, or high-tech gadgets required to have a competitive luxury car in 2006. You cant even get a NAV system in the Azera, while Honda offers one in the Civic.

I think that Infiniti and Lexus need at least another 10 years to increase their product portfolios and push their brands globally to be considered truly on par with the Europeans. The 600hL is Lexus' first step towards true equality, but will they sell any outside of the United States? Infiniti has yet to offer a successful full size luxury car, and Acura has yet to offer a successful mid size LPS.

Lexus and BMW have absolutely nothing to worry about from Hyundai, not before 2030 anyway.

jrock65 · May 2006

Hyundai offers NAV in even the Elantra in Korea. Don't know why they don't offer it here though.

24 years is a very long time. Lexus only took about 10 years to become the best selling lux brand in the states.

Hyundai grew much faster in its first 20 years in the U.S., than Toyota did in its first 20 years in the U.S.

I'd say in about 10 years they should make some noise. They have to establish a separate lux brand first though. Americans are badge lovers, and no one would ever buy a $50,000 Hyundai, no matter how nice it is.

markcincinnati · May 2006

. . .but Audi has a "private" party Tuesday, May 16th at one of the Cincinnati dealers to "show off" the new Q7 and the RS4 cars.

You know, heavy, heavy hors d'oeuvres, brochures, wine and factory reps gushing over the cars. . .

Sounds kinda fun.

Went to the Infiniti M version last year -- do the other LPS guys do this too (I would imagine?)

Probably the wrong place, but I'll post (somewhere) my up close and personal takes on the Q7 and RS4 afterwards.

:shades:

erickpl · May 2006

I know Porsche does. I've been invited to some BMW ones back when I had my 3 series back in Cali.

-Paul

lexusguy · May 2006

Jag does too. I was invited to a special preview showing of the new XK a month or so ago.

cmybimmergo · May 2006

Lexus does it.

tayl0rd · May 2006

Even Chrysler did it with the new 300 back in 2004. I went to that event and also the Infiniti M unveiling. Infiniti had some awesome Swedish meatballs. Chrysler had some delicious cheeses. :shades:

markcincinnati · May 2006

Got into and behind the wheel of a Q7 yesterday, offered a drive, but the salesperson said it would feel sluggish even with the V8, traffic was a mess, so I passed now that I know it will be 'round for eval after the big show at the dealer's tonight.

The thing from my perspective is HUGE.

Reminded me, inside, of an A6 and seemed very well made.

From the driver's seat, the thing is a beauty -- looking out over the hood.

From the outside and I know I'll get a whippin' -- gulp, well the dang thing looks like a Chrysler Pacifica.

Maybe, maybe, it will grow on me.

At this point, I'll pass -- the A6 and perhaps the next generation A4 and certainly the BMW 530xi series will get my attention (although I am 20 months away from a refresh.)

Check it out, maybe a Pacifica isn't a bad thing. :confuse:

anthonyp · May 2006

I think the Pacifica is nice looking..Man you have a long wait for the new car, and I really enjoy your excitement when you do get one, so I also have a long wait...T

lexusguy · May 2006

The Q7 doesnt do it for me. It's a typical German uber-porker SUV, around 1400lbs. heavier than the RX350. With gas prices where they are, I just cant get excited about averaging 10-12mpg.

The interior is a copy\paste from the A6. While its nice, it seems kind of lazy on Audi's part.

markcincinnati · May 2006

And it is 400 pounds lighter than the Escalade, a few inches shorter and $11,000 less money, and. . .

Well it would be no contest if you want a land whale.

Funny, theses uber SUV's (from anywhere) seem to get closer to the SIZE of the dinosaur as we seem to be paying dearly for the fossil fuels the real dinosaurs helped create (talk about commitment!)

lexusguy · May 2006

It is rather interesting that after years of being essentially the only alternative to the Lincoln and Cadillac, Lexus' GX and especially the LX are now completely outmatched by the Q7 and GL, and at $65K+, the LX470 looks mighty overpriced to boot.

Time for Toyota to think about a serious overhaul of its full size lineup.

markcincinnati · May 2006

Begin, stream of consciousness.

The Q7 is, IMHO, HUGE! I know the Escalade would technically be bigger in terms of some of its dimensions and weight. I don't know if it is more or less effective as a "package" to "package" people and their stuff, but if you are looking at a $57,000 Tahoe and DON'T look at a $56,000 Q7 (the price of the one they had for the demo) you are missing out on an awesome vehicle.

Yet, I was not enthusiastic about the Q7, it is bulbous, looks like a fine fine fine Chrysler Pacifica and has the wonderful A6-like interior and probably the most comfortable chairs I've ever been in inside of an automobile.

The V8 engine, so I'm led to believe, is adequate to the task and does not strain -- but it IS a large SUV, a luxury sort of sport SUV, but an SUV for pity's sake.

I guess Audi feels they need one -- I am kind of of the mind that it is too big and too late.

A Q5 or Q6 (about the size of the BMW X3 but Audi-fied) needs to be brought to market NOW.

The RS4 was a site to behold, touch, sit in and hear idle. But, heck, the monthly gas bill would certainly exceed the lease payment based on its volume and its state of tune. . . .

Which made me think as. . . .

I glanced down this afternoon whilst driving on I-71 South from north of Cincinnati to the CBD and found I was at 92mph in the #2 lane (of 4), being passed from time to time and passing a whole lot of slower moving traffic that was in lanes 3 and 4. No muss, no fuss, no sense of great speed (traffic was very light to light medium until I was within 5 miles of downtown -- the stars were in alignment and no Reds game was being played.)

My 2005 A6 V6 has what by many LPS standards is a merely adequate motivator -- a 255HP rating in a rather heavy car even for its class, i.e. I can easily merge into traffic even when speeds are well above the national speed limit and somewhat to my chagrin, I can almost obliviously (to myself, that is) motor on at darn near Autobahn speeds.

My tank, when full, shows me a distance to empty sometimes over 600 miles and the car and gas payments are relatively sane.

Rare is the time -- and getting rarer and rarer -- when I could even enjoy the legs of the lesser Audi S4, that was parked right next to the RS4. Heck, my last three Audi 4.2 engines, while being the sweetest sounding of any car I have been in with any regularity, loafed in the clog of traffic that is normal even in this rather smallish Midwestern City (SMSA 1.5MM+.)

Now comes Audi (and the rest of the LPS cars) with cars that seem to require fuel lines that can be mistaken for garden hoses and gas prices that soon will threaten to go way north of $3.50 on a trajectory to $5.00 and beyond.

The big-butt Q7 and the "we're not worthy, we're not worthy" RS4 seem like guilty pleasures or excesses even with YOUR money. Especially when I can cruise along glued to the choppy pot hole stricken Ohio Interstate system at 90+mph and have only my instruments to keep me aware of speed.

The lust I retain for the V8 and the relentless rush that their weapons grade torque can provide seems more and more like an invitation to be frustrated. Like going into Mortons and smelling the steak but only being able to order and eat the chicken.

A powerful and luxurious and sporty "near" LPS car seems to me to be both great fun and prudent/pragmatic all at the same time.

Maybe I worry about draining the rest of the world's gasoline (even though I know that is unlikely in my lifetime at least), or maybe I am frustrated that we keep making ever faster, quicker and bigger vehicles that can only be deployed (most of the time) on ever slower, in need of repair and more crowded highways.

Hell, maybe I'll move to Montana.

The LPS-SUV wasn't repulsive -- but it is the first new Audi I have NOT been drawn to in at least SOME manner, shape form or regard.

If you need a biggin', my guess is you would be hard pressed to find something better especially for the money ($56K did seem like a bargain after the $57K Tahoe.)

I'll pass. . .

End, stream of consciousness.

anthonyp · May 2006

I looked at the edmonds pricing for a Pacifica, and either I read it wrong, but the number was way lower than the numbers mentioned above....What am I missing?? Tony

jking233 · May 2006

Can someone tell me the Cell phones that will transfer the phone book to the GS300 GEN 4 NAV system. looking to beg borrow or steal one lol

Thanks
Jeff

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