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Honda Accord Diesel????
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But, the 7AT configuration might be helping MB's cause in EPA test cycles for higher rating, but becomes a nuisance on the road.
Thats good milage for a vehicle of that stature. I'm looking for something under 2 tons that gets over 40mpg combined.
From the way you were talking about those diesel vehicles I thought you were in Europe. It sounds like you're in California like me.
Just how much of a premium are California buyers willing to pay for the used diesels at minimum mileage to legally register in California? That sounds like an interesting market that will still be in existence a year from now just for those interesting european and 45 state diesel models such as the MB GL320 CDI. MB is also bringing the ML in diesel to the USA soon.
-Nano
I would go out of state to find one and pay NO MORE than invoice. You can make a good deal on the R320 CDI if you like that configuration of 2+2+2 seating. They have never sold good and Mercedes dealers that have them will deal.
Waiting for the Pilot diesel would be more likely to get 40 MPG highway.
I hope this is not vague but as long as there is a demand for RUG, DIESEL is a LARGE component (consequence) of RUG's production, and of course, vice versa. It would increase the price of RUG almost exponentially to get rid of diesel and its several levels of component products (IAW EPA etc regulations, etc etc)
The absolutely HUGE break through/s and up until now "holy grail" would be getting close to either 100% of a barrel of oil as RUG or DIESEL product. (indeed using unrefined oil) Next would be as close to 100% pure RUG or diesel from a barrel of oil.
As another example this whole process would be trumped by the ability to have a commercially viable engine whose fuel would be H2O (preferably the salted variety).
(if you believe of course or to a certain extent, even if one does not believe)H20 would be one of global warming's huge by-products (liquid, not ice). :lemon: Too bad the environmentalists are not working on melting some H20 in the Atlanta Georgia direction, I am told they could sure use a LOT! Given the theory, ya kind of wonder how the Sahara Desert (or any HUGE HUGE HUGE desert) was formed, prior to MAN itself and man's use of so called fossil fuel burning.
You wrote "this whole process would be trumped by the ability to have a commercially viable engine whose fuel would be H2O (preferably the salted variety)" I presume that you've already seen and read of it, but this is intriguing, even though it may be snake oil.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=salt+water+fuel
You also wrote "Too bad the environmentalists are not working on melting some H20 in the Atlanta Georgia direction, I am told they could sure use a LOT! "
We shouldn't need the melting H20. Just several (newer, modern design) clean nuclear plants that, in addition to pouring non-fossil electricity into the national power grid, would power large scale seawater desalination plants on all seacoasts.
That way, we could have our Accord Diesel cake and eat it too.
So would it be a reasonable expectation to locate one or to all closer to the middle of the continent, like IOWA!!???
Makes me want to sing Grrrr
I swag CA will be the epicenter for the launch of Honda's 50 state diesel effort. Sort of that New Jersey natives song, if you can make it in New York City (aka CA in this analogy) you can make it anywhere. As it concerns Honda Diesels, Honda could be seen as taking advantage of its "GREEN" reputation in CA. The marketing lead in probably is the designer of the successful VTEC gasser, designed Honda's iCTDI, aka IDEC (or whatever it is or will be called) It is also well known Honda operates a design center in So CA and has a big presence in the state. (Toyota also)
I SWAG Honda's diesel entries will put it easily 3-7 years ahead of Toyota, which in the car business seems to be HUGE and an eternity. In the best/worst case, it will force Toyota into the diesel market segment, which IT says it never wanted to go.
Honda Accord Diesel has the potential to motivate Toyota, Chrysler, GM and possibly Ford to market diesels in cars.
Provided it is a success.
Toyota already has D-4D diesel engine range that extends from Yaris size to LandCruiser size vehicles. D-4D engines are competitive with anything available and Isuzu is now collaborating to further improve Toyota diesels.
I also think that to put it on a Civic would literally cannibalize (gasser) Civic sales. On the Accord, it seems more likely to TAKE market share from Camry.
But, the 2.2 isn't showing any benefit over Accord (yes, it is the same diesel in Civic as it is in Accord). But it sure has managed to push the curb weight up past 3000 lb (300+ lb heavier than gasoline powered Civic).
I was expecting a smaller diesel this time around (for Jazz/Civic), but looks like that isn't happening. Instead, it will be 2.2 again, and later joined by the V6 (either 3.0 or 3.5) which clearly will be put in light trucks.
But who knows, when diesel catches on, that might open up the possibility of even more diesel options in more models.
So when is the accord coming?
The new VW diesels coming out ahead of the Hondas will be great incentive for Honda to bring the diesel to the USA as soon as is possible.
-Nano
The VW will really light the diesel fuse for those considering a diesel car, and will raise the overall awareness of diesel prior to the release of the Honda.
Its gonna be good.
{nano}
So the Honda and VW diesels will be coming out at the same time, around September 2008. Hopefully.
{keep your fingers crossed}
-nano
The Honda should have no trouble running on B100 (100% biodiesel) Whether Honda will give you that ability without voiding your warranty is the question. Mercedes & VW only consider B5 acceptable. When pushed in Hawaii Mercedes did give clearance for the B100 produced by Pacific Biodiesel.
Here are a few downsides to biodiesel. It needs to be used when it is warmer than 40 degrees, or mixed with number one diesel (kerosene). Biodiesel is a wonderful solvent. If you have been running very dirty diesel as is the case in some parts of the USA, it can dislodge some of the particles that can plug up injectors. A clean filter is mandatory. There is a large community of people on Maui that use only B100 in their VW, diesel PUs and Mercedes. High quality biodiesel should run great in the Honda diesel. In most of the USA now you can buy B5 to B20 which should be fine year round.
Now if Honda gets their act together and gets their diesels approved for the US.
This is the way it will have to go. Makers of diesel cars are loath to cover the use of biodiesel because they don't want to be stuck with fixing damage caused by improperly made fuel. Some mechanism (like approving the uses of a specific company's product, as above) needs to be in place that assures the car maker that high-quality fuel is being used, but in turn covers the buyer in the case of an actual problem with the car.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
That is one of my main issues with buying a diesel car. They use diesel fuel which is an unknown to us historic unleaded gas users. There are many issues with the diesel fuel itself in this case.
Will the increase in demand for diesel raise the price? How stable of a source of diesel fuel do I have in my town? will the price be more volatile than regular gasoline due to the limited production and limited demand?
The good part is that there is independently produced biodiesel available. This is a boon to the small scale biodiesel business and a great reason to have a diesel car.
I will need to keep current on my diesel fuel research to feel comfortable buying a diesel car.
-nano
You seem to be the diesel fuel illuminati, at least in this forum. Thanks for those previous links on diesel fuel you posted here.
I have done a ton of research on diesel fuel already.
But the true unknowns regarding diesel fuel aren't revealed on a tech site or by reasonable research on diesel fuel. The true unknowns are the volatility in the availability and price of diesel fuel.
Once we have even 10% of the U.S. passenger cars using diesel fuel, we will be in a better position to be secure in our knowledge that the fuel will be there when we need it, and for a reasonable price.
-nano
Europe is 50% diesel cars, so they don't have to worry about being a first adopter like we do here in the U.S. I know there is a lot of diesel fuel used here in the U.S., but this new demand due to the new cars may cause a whole series of events that could make diesel not-so-desireable. Also, these new cars are a whole new market for diesel fuel, so there may be some kind of spike in demand, or a manipulative price gouging of sorts by the producers. I certainly don't put that past them!
I know this might be hard for gasser consumers ( you) to fathom, but you can get diesel fuel just about ANYWHERE!! Is it at EVERY station? NO!! Current figures indicate a 25% saturation. for a less than 3% population.
As a practical matter, I have NEVER in +100,000 miles had to ever wait at a diesel pump to get diesel fuel. Indeed I only need to wait for those gassers blocking an empty diesel pump to move! (They do not take too kindly to me going into the pump area perpendicularly) I have done this a few times with the approval of those folks that I would seemingly have "cut in front of " Another thing is you do not have to fuel as often as you are able to go farther/longer. Here is a real life example: 1.8T, 2.0 VW Jetta 29 mpg vs Jetta TDI 50 mpg/100,000 miles (fill between 10/13 gals= ranges of 3448/2000gals= 345/265 stops to 200/154 stops. Contrast this with the number of times having to wait for RUG!!! Also while I am sure trucks stops will receive this with mixed feelings, you can also stop at diesel truck stops.
For the past year that I've paid attention to it, the price of Diesel fuel here in the northern suburbs of the NY Metropolitan area, has consistantly been 25 to 50 cents more per gallon than regular unleaded gasoline. That bodes not well for once the demand starts to rise.
I know that Diesel #2 is very available. In fact, I have D#2 and B99 available at my usual gas station.
What I am concerned about is the national, large-scale, wholistic supply-demand scenario for diesel. With the advent of so many passenger cars on diesel, I could see the demand spike suddenly, and suppliers gouging due to the high demand. The suppliers will use any excuse to raise prices.
I am concerned about the global market in oil, and how volatile oil prices could be in the future.
Have a look at this website:
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
Its obvious that every time the prices go way up drastically, such as last summer, the prices go way up, then people complain, the price slowly goes down, the people forget about the high prices and then the prices once again slowly rise above the previous threshold without much notice or comment from the public. That is the way gas prices are right now. It is like they get us used to paying the high prices, and then lower them to set our mind at ease and we forget that gas is expensive, then just when we put it out of our minds they raise the prices up again to high levels. it always seems to work for them.
Here in California the price of gas is as high as it was last summer when everybody was complaining and it was headline news. Now the price is as high as ever before, but there is no mention of it in the news. The price will stay high forever from here on out, because that is the way it always seems to work.
I have been tracking the price of diesel and it is up to $3.60 now, and RUG is about $3.25 to $3.30. That is actually a lower differential than I saw in summer. Diesel is usually higher in winter relative to RUG because diesel can be used as heating fuel.
The higher price of diesel (at least at the current price differential) still allows for diesel cars to be more cost efficient than gassers because of the higher energy density of diesel fuel, and the higher efficiency of the diesel engine. The cost tradeoff is the higher initial capitalization cost for a diesel car relative to a gasser car.
-nano
The math should be 3%/30 = 0.1% or one tenth of one percent growth of diesel cars per year. The problem with using this low number for the growth is that presently there are so few diesel cars available for purchase. No cars available for sale = slow growth.
The problem the way i see it is that there are so few diesel cars on the road now because there are really none available to buy. The old diesel VW's are probably fading away in numbers briskly now.
Considering that the new VW's and Hondas will be the first MAINSTREAM diesel cars to really flood the market in quite a while, and the low numbers of diesels on the road presently, it seems to me it would be very easy to DOUBLE the amount of diesel passenger cars on the road in just a couple of years. Especially since these new diesel cars have so few negative aspects to them in contrast to the old noisy, smelly diesels. The new diesels will sell well because they have more advantages than disadvantages, IMHO.
That is my view of the possible near-term spike in diesel fuel demand. there will be a lot more diesel cars on the road a lot sooner than a lot of people think. I think the 0.1% growth per year in diesel cars will grow exponentially when these new cars come out. It seems to me the growth rate for diesel passenger cars once these new cars come out will be more like 5%-10% per year, because there are so few cars on the road now, and there will be a lot more diesel cars very soon.
That spike in diesel passenger cars could cause a short term spike in demand on diesel fuel, or at least make for lines at your diesel pump very soon.
Does this make any sense?
-nano
The gate keeper is again the yearly entry percentage of diesels (% of 16/17M yearly new cars sales) , which will truly govern how fast the diesels% & Vol will grow. So really your job is to put some numbers to it, as you hold the concern.
My concern is completely the opposite. It is based on this assumption:
IF we indeed (as the environmentalists, etc. etc. say that we do) have a consumption issue
THEN why would we NOT want 35 mph and UP (diesel, gasser and otherwise) hitting the passenger vehicle fleet literally YESTERDAY!!?? And do it cheaper easier, etc, etc,.
Or to put it more succinctly, cut the consumption 40 to 60%!!???
If the recent forward looking 2020 35 mpg legislation is a bellweather, it literally guarantees the defacto 22 mpg (gasser) STANDARD for a min of 12 years and well into another 12 years for a total of 24 years.!!!??? In addition it defacto excludes (new)diesel use which in and of itself is LESS consumptive!! Along with current regulations, it EFFECTIVELY keeps out cars like the European marketed VW POLO which actually does get 62 mpg!!! Suffice to say, diesels are scheduled to grow VERY VERY VERY slowly in lieu of REAL numbers and PERCENTAGES. The reason why those real numbers and %'s are lacking is that it makes it impossible (logically) to calculate how SLOWLY it is really scheduled to grow. On the flip side this overwhelmingly indicates continued RUG/PUG use in vol and percentages
in other words i am saying there will be a growth of 5% -10% per year of people using the Diesel #2 or biodiesel pumps at your gas station. I see this as the long-term growth.
Initially, a big glut of new diesel cars on the road could come close to doubling the number of diesel pasenger cars being driven in the U. S., and hence doubling the passenger car demand for diesel, and doubling the likelihood of someone being at your diesel pump when you pull into the gas station.
Numbers aside, there will certainly be a large growth in the diesel pasenger car segement in the next few years.
-nano
My take is your 5/10% growth over the existing diesel population is AGGRESSIVE. My take is it will be lucky to be HALF that!! This would usher in the RIP VAN WINKLE effect or 160 years to 80 years.
Keep in mind that like model diesels see less trips to the fuel stations also. Easy example Jetta gasser (29) vs TDI (49) 14.5 gal fuel tank, 10-13 gal fills over 100,000 miles. 100,000 miles/29-49= 3448 gals-2040 gals/ 10-13 gals=
345 to 265 GASSER fuel stops vs 204 to 157 DIESEL fuel stops!!??