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Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid
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And no, Consumer Reports "reliability" ratings are not scientific per se, but they ARE the best we have for reporting problems from "real owners and real cars" on such a largescale basis.
Gee I wonder how gasoline vehicles would do if we were still running leaded regular? According to the naysayers we should have band gasoline years ago!?
They are a reference even if it is a poor reference. Far from the best we have. I think Edmund's forum is a better place to find out what is wrong with a given model of car. You get people here that tell whether they like a vehicle or not and the actual problems encountered. I take what JD Powers and CR says very lightly in my pursuit of the truth about a given vehicle. They have an agenda and they make too many subjective mistakes to be taken seriously. Insurance Institute is a better reference. There you get the actual ratings on injuries, collision repair etc that tell me more about what is important in a car I buy.
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/index.php?news=2324
I imagine it'll only appeal to those whose main interest lies in cleaner emissions.
kirstie_h
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I won't try to convince you otherwise, but imo, CR is the best reference available. While things to look for in your vehicle is what's beneficial to browsing these forums, they are certainly more prone to subjectivity than a 800,000 person sample size. The actual problems encountered are useful, solely, for that purpose, to read about certain individuals problems.
You could have 1/10th an 800,000 person sample size and come up with at least a 96% confidence interval. 800,000 more than makes up for blips of subjectivity.
Where do they get these 800,000 samples? I have bought at least 15 new cars and never been contacted by either JD Powers or Consumer Reports. I know for a fact their testing on some things is horribly flawed. Many of the items they call a best buy turn out to be a best bust. Give me real people with real problems and I will make up my own mind. Here I can ask the person for details of the problems they are having. I prefer realism over surrealism in some vague report.
kirstie_h
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Consumer reports makes things even worse by limiting how much actual data we get; those circles are nice for a quick glance but don't give anything like the whole story.
In my opinion probably the closest standard we have for determining initial quality in a vehicle is 1st and 2nd year warrenty work. Unfortunately I don't think most automakers are willing to release that data.
Again, 800,000 is so far above and beyond confidence interval requirements to make a reasonable judgement, it's not even funny.
kirstie_h
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Conversely, how much "significant" data can you draw on with the 2004 Toyota Prius (hybrid)? This was totally redesigned for that model year. Would you say that TOTAL REDESIGN was the "CORRECTIVE ACTION!!!!??? Why? The 2003 Toyota Prius was almost totally off the mark!! Can/would you use its dismal record in buying the 2004? Yet the 2004 is an absolute hit!?
The same might almost be said for our nexus, the 2003 Honda Civic hybrid, since 2003 was the intro model year. Real hard to say I have been running 150,000 miles and probably: i.e.,won't change the batteries for another 7 years.?
So not only are these two makes and models relatively new to the market, but if you are making a case for significant longitudinal data, one year probably doesn't meet the definition of longitudinal!?
The other salient point is that the concept to market cycle is getting FAR shorter, which from a data collection point of view focuses more on MARKETING(unscientific as far as verification data is concerned) rather than longitudinal data!!
.
BTW, the 2002 European Union declared the Lupo 3L TDI the "world's cleanest car". Not surprising. Even though it's a diesel, it gets 90 miles per gallon on the highway. It drinks so little fuel, its emissions are almost nothing.
Also like I have said in prior posts, some of the so called math challenged folks who walk around extolling folks to use less fuel really enjoy using MORE fuel that the Lupo TDI that you have cited!
- Move the IMA from the Insight to the Civic. Use a bigger electric motor.
- Likewise Toyota moved the hybrid drive train from the Old Prius to the New Prius. And used a bigger motor.
Same system. Same guts. Different car. It's not a "total redesign". It's just a modification. Like Windows 3.0 vs. Windows 3.1.
.
VW does the same thing with its TDI. Beetle, Jetta, Golf... they're all exactly the same car. Only the top changes.
The Lupo 3L TDI was designed from scratch. It's 100% aluminum. It had a stick shift, but it's computer-controlled. And the engine is a tiny 3-cylinder at only 45 hp (the diesel-equivalent of Insight's engine).
"The Lupo 3L TDI was designed from scratch. It's 100% aluminum. It had a stick shift, but it's computer-controlled. And the engine is a tiny 3-cylinder at only 45 hp (the diesel-equivalent of Insight's engine)."
This is banned from entering the country. It is just one more glaring example of the bias AGAINST diesels in this country. So it is perfectly fine to exclude a vehicle getting 90 mpg, but just wonderful to sell 25 mpg type vehicles,??? And at the same carp about us using too much fuel!?? Like I said, for some environmentally math challenged folks 25 mpg is better than 90 mpg!?
Who pays more in taxation; dollar wise and per mile driven?: an owner of a car that gets 15-30 mpg?, or an owner of a car that gets 50-90 mpg?
I also like not having to bring the TDI in for the SMOG test @ 40-80 dollars a pop and also at the 10 year mark where you have to bring it to a "test only" station that charges you more for the same service, but is mandated to achieve a higher failure rate!
There is a lot to be said for your assertion. Look at CA. They are wanting to charge a penny and a half per mile. Not only that they want a GPS in your car that keeps track of the mileage and adds the tax when you buy gas.
As far as smog checks that is a distinct advantage in owning a diesel car. And according to the State of California diesel emissions are not significant to spend the money for testing.
From CA website
while particulates are visible in diesel exhaust, smog-causing carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions from diesel-fueled vehicles are comparatively low. Testing for NOx (oxides of nitrogen) in diesel emissions is under evaluation. With light-duty diesel vehicles comprising less than one percent of the total number of California registered vehicles, the costs associated with implementing a new regulatory program to include these vehicles are currently prohibitive.
I certainly have read in the NOOS, that the UN is NOT!! $27 billion and UP??
Actually Oregon is ahead of CA in implementing the mileage tax. It just seems like a big boondoggle to me. Much easier to raise the gas tax and get it over with. That is why diesel is so expensive in CA the added tax was put on because big trucks are harder on the highways.
Check this article on the subject
http://www.detnews.com/2004/commuting/0411/30/B06-19188.htm
There is the hidden tax of bringing the product to market (min of 15%) there is the fed tax, interstate commerce tax, road tax on goods, state sales tax, county sales tax, CA state tax, then there are road tolls, bridge tolls, parking fees, tax on repairs.
Interesting article. BTW, Corvettes have the so called "black boxes" they have been used as an instrument in lawsuits! So I dont think the author is talking FEAR it is more like legal precedence.
Boys version: "I drive down the street at 25 mph and this car just backs out of the driveway, I slam on my brakes, but too late. The lady driver was hurt, I didn't see no baby in the back seat."
OBD II version: "Last 60 seconds before impact: vehicle speed 125 mph, throttle -- fully open, gear - 5th gear, Air to fuel ratio......."
FALSE. The Lupo is as welcome here as the other 5 TDIs currently in the U.S. (tourareg, passat, jetta, golf, beetle). Volkswagen simply chooses not to bring it here. Nor the Polo.
Troy
Now THAT is FALSE!!! ?
By the the time the 2005 Lupo TDI gets out of the bureacratic maze, the 2015 models will be for sale!
You really don't have to believe what I say: Just try it!!!
WAY long gone are the days you could do this. In 1974 I had a chance to buy a 356 1964 (turtle back) Porsche (Euro spec) for 1700 dollars.
Through an odd quirk of CA state law, if I had kept it, the 30 year old cars (1994 in this case) exemption from smog certifications has been around for a LONG LONG time!
..."The number of registered vehicles increased from 225.7 million in 2002 to 230.2 million in 2003."...
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/announce/press/pressdisplay.cfm?ye- ar=2004&filename=FFARSrls404.html
If the actual population of (10%) suv's is any indication, the so called "majority interest in suv's" really only converts to a 10% "MINORITY" position.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/PPT/2003EARelease.pd- f
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_4dr.htm
Many people beleive that automakers can "just start importing em" This is so VERY wrong.
I know a guy that had a "grey market" BMW, It was "grey market" because it was not one of the models that was normally available in the USA.
He said it was missing lots of safety features that we here in the USA take for granted (like steel bars in the doors for side-impacts and a built-in rollbar.)
Bottom line: I suspect that for the LUPO to be made "acceptable" to meet the US safety requirements, it would have to be many 100s of lbs heavier with all of the safety cageing. Not to mention if it is desigend to drop the engine when a front-impact occours. What about crumple-zones? I doubt the existing design has any of these features that are manditory for USA sales.
At least all other power options works and the engine is pretty strong, but thats more than the $2k I wished to spend, and not even the year I wanted (1992 and earlier).
But can't really complain too much for this model year of cars, and I'm hoping (fingers crossed) after I have this fully registered and set up spick 'n span by summer i'll get at least 2 years up, and to infinity and beyond if possible.
Sooo!!.... since this stinky thingy (which I've started calling Stinky D) came with only a french manual and I have no idea whatsoever of diesels I'm going to ask some of your advice:
This morning, Stinky D wouldn't start.
Had it outside overnight at -17 deg C (wife's van gets the nice single garage). Ended up driving the Toy Prius parked next to it which purred in one click with nary a fuss. Just gotta love those hybrids with their huge batteries in winter.
What are the prep I should do to get it going in deep winter? -17 deg is just early winter here in Ottawa, we regularly hit low -30's in January and February.
Obviously the 1 litre gas on a full tank diesel didn't help very much. Guess I should gun for the proper diesel winter gloop but with such an old thingy I thought I could get away with gas.
Maybe a block heater is a must on diesels? Will have to check the battery too. But are there any other diesel specific tricks I should know? Compression check? (glow plugs are all new).
You actually put gas in your tank. I am not sure but I think that's very bad. Go over to the tdiclub website and post this there. The guys there will tell you what to do to fix it.
kirstie_h
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http://www.usatoday.com/money/consumer/autos/mareview/mauto497.ht- m
It sounds like something only the most eco-maniacal (just made that up) would want.
I'm all for good gas mileage and I'll be getting a hybrid soon, but you reach the point of diminishing returns past ~50 mpg.
Think about it this way - if you design something to take 20,000 pounds and you put 1,000 pounds on it - how much damage is it going to do? - not much.
so with this in consideration - we are already paying for the damage that the trucks do to the roads. The question is - do we want to pay more for the damage? Although, I don't live in California - but here in Houston, they just waste the money by not having good coordination between projects, and apparently sub-standard quality standards compared to the two other states I have lived in.
___Not to take the TDI vs. HCH to far OT but both Ford and Honda have the real McCoy in terms of real world capable performance, size, and FE in the same package with their own high tech Diesels
http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=11009
2005 Ford Focus: Europe
The diesel units are latest-generation common-rail units with particulate filters, which will meet Euro IV emissions regulations and therefore avoid the extra three-percent tax penalty levied on diesel cars which don't meet the new regulations. The engines are a 1.6-litre unit with 107bhp and 177lb.ft, and a 2.0-litre unit with 134bhp and a healthy 236lb.ft. The petrol engines and 1.6-litre diesel come with a five-speed manual transmission, that CVT is also available on the 1.6-diesel, while the 2.0-litre diesel has a six-speed manual gearbox.
___The 1.6 TDCi although only Prius II fast (0 - 60 in ~ 11.0 seconds) receives ~ 40/50 mpg EPA estimated equivalent City/Hwy.
___The 2.0 L w/ a 6-speed manual (0-60 in ~ 9.3 seconds) receives ~ 33/44 mpg EPA estimated equivalent City/Hwy.
2004 Accord Saloon: Europe
___Enough has been posted on this diesel to fill 10 pages in the Town hall. The 2.2 L iCDTi w/ a 5-speed manual (0-60 in ~ 9.3 seconds) receives ~ 38/46 mpg EPA estimated equivalent City/Hwy.
___If any of you missed this one from a while ago, it might be worth the read.
First Test: 2002 Ford Focus TDCi
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/wagon/112_0208_focus/index.ht- - - ml
___38 mpg average with a test car being flogged? Maybe 50 mpg out on the highway w/ < 10 second to 60 performance! The 2005 on up Euro IV spec’ed Ford C-MAX’s have improved upon this TDCi with even greater HP, Torque, quietness, smoothness, and FE since the second article/review linked directly above was written.
___What in the world is the US (CARB and/or the EPA) thinking given any of these latest generation Euro TDCi/iCDTi’s when running B20 in the winter and B100 in the summer would decrease CO2 emissions to just 10’s of grams/mile vs. > 80 - 400 + for absolutely everything else including the Insight and Prius II. If the EPA says CO is a pollutant, how can they say CO2 isn’t given both will kill you in the exact same manner in heavy concentrations or simply kill the planet in the case of CO2 as a GHG? The fact that Ford has a very low cost SCR-CAT with Urea injection solution to control NOx and DPF’s already installed on their 1.6 and 2.0 listed above could make these as clean as any ULEV and possibly even SULEV automobile clean depending on what pollutant is being considered.
___Sorry to all for running so far off topic
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2003/7/hyb- rid_vs_gas/index.phtml
There was no indication in the article that the HCH was "less comfortable" than the Civic EX - THEY USE THE SAME SEATS !!!
Gary, what exactly would be the competitive points of a TDI vs HCH cross country comparison?
Overall MPG?
Seat comfort?
Exhaust Smell?
How easy to find a gas pump? (not all little stations in all little towns have diesel pumps you know - and when they do, what percentage do you think has Low Sulfur?)
And is "a cross-country trip" really a VALID comparison of one car versus another? I understand how it was helpful for getting an overall MPG number in the EX versus the HCH.
But as far as "over the life of the car" usefullness, I think it would be useful only for a retiree who traverses the country 24x7. Most people seldom if NEVER take a cross country trip, and most of those do not take MULTIPLE cross-country trips.
I don't really know how this works in the real world, but they say that one of every 4 filling stations sells diesel. On cross country trips it is almost an absolute no brainer to find truck stops, major gas company stations, (Philidelphia Phil's filling stations ), corner stores, convenience stores, Indian tribes run stations, that sell diesel. I could refill with diesel on "the Strip" in Las Vegas Nv!!!??? In downtown Durango, in addtion to multiple diesel sources, there was even a corner store that sold biodiesel!!
While I probably should not say this, I drove on this trip with aboslutely no concern for fuel mileage. (Except when the low fuel lamp lit and the buzzer sounded but the truth is I could have gone another 100 or so miles.) For an almost 700 mile day range!!
So I wish you a safe and wonderful trip! Mine was an absolute blast! I doubt, however you will drive your hybrid unconcerned about mpg. It seems the hybrid drivers see it as "macho/machette gig to get as high a mpg from their machines (bragging rights?) . But indeed, do let us know the details! All the best!
All very good questions. First the writers of the article indicated the HCH was more of a chore to handle than the EX. They attributed that to the tires. Not sure about the seats I would be curious on a long trip comparison between the Civic and Jetta. My interest being a vehicle to travel around our great country when I do retire. Actually the only car on my list at present is the Passat Wagon TDI. I have also considered a new GMC conversion van for the convenience while traveling. I would then be giving up mileage for convenience. Or I can save a ton of money and just drive my Suburban which is wonderful on long trips. Probably no way I can really justify a new vehicle on mileage alone. Plus the Suburban has a 42 gallon tank that gives me an easy 650-700 mile range. Lets me find the best deal on gas. After all life is always a compromise.
Finding diesel is not a problem. Finding LSD or ULSD is a bigger issue. You have other options to run different mixtures of biodiesel in the parts of the country it is available. You can go anyplace a semi truck can go. Which is everywhere. It should be fair as the HCH has just a slightly shorter mileage range. That is only 5 stops for fuel from coast to coast.
Test objectives are as follow:
Overall MPG?
Seat comfort?
Handling & performance?
Reliability? (A chance for VW to vindicate itself)
Exhaust Smell? (all recent articles on the newer TDI's say diesel smell is non existent)
"Albuquerque, N.M., is about 275 miles from Amarillo and the grades get longer and the winds get stronger in this part of the desert. Both cars need constant steering correction to keep them straight. But the Hybrid is more unstable in these gale-force gusts."
Any light, small car with thin tires is going to be tough to handle in high winds.
As far as Volkswagen "vindicating itself" in reliability - that cannot happen for ONE CAR on ONE TRIP. Reliability ratings are gleened from real owners reporting real problems over the life of a car line. Facts are Facts: VW is far less reliable than Honda.
The longest time lately I was in the car (Chevy seats) was 10 hours to drive 963 miles from San Jose, CA to Vancover, BC.
I myself have experienced a climbing situation with my IMA battery completely discharged, and it's not pleasant at all using only the gas engine - that little 1.3l is not a strong puller !
But the caveat is this: I live in "flat" Phoenix AZ, and the times "I personally" will need to climb enough hills to expire the battery are slim to none. Maybe .0005 percent of my driving might be in cases where I expire the battery climbing.
There are MANY MANY HCH owners who live in hilly and mountainous areas who have not had any major issues (i.e. Problems) with the IMA running out and leaving them on gas only. They have learned to deal with it.
There is no "perfect car" for every situation imaginable to every driver - but the HCH thus far has been about as close to perfect as I could have hoped for in MY case.
Flogging a 1.3 gasser to within a razors edge of exploding is not my idea of a good time! Nor is reading WAR and PEACE, while I go 45-55 mph up a super long grade.