Or the timeframe. I want to buy a civic, but with the high prices low production i think i might wait, plus i never like purchasing the first year of a new model.
What is most disturbing about this problem is that Honda is selling cars with know defects and is not informing the customer. What is completely absurd is that Motor Trend has named the 2006 civic "Car of the Year". Perhaps "Rip Off of the Year" would be more appropriate. Does anyone know if a class action suite has been initiated against Honda in an effort to force a buy back of the vehicles?
So am I to believe that all you expect for the $18,000 you spend on a brand new automobile is that it "doesn't fall apart"??? I expect more from the companies I do business with.
I would wait (even with a Honda or Toyota) at least until the second year of production on any new car. They have to get the bugs out and for me it's just not worth the risk/money to buy a car that'll be in the shop all the time(even under warranty) or bound to have multiple recalls.
I know that Honda is known for their reliability, but if this is how they plan to manufacture their new vehicles then I'll pass. Before they were just bland, but reliable. Now if they're gonna be both I'll look elsewhere. :lemon:
My 06 Civic EX Sedan 5MT, Navi is near perfect. I knew buying a first year production run on a new gen. was going to be interesting to say the least. Ive had a heater duct issue. Took 30 mins to fix it and my auto up function on the drivers window is wiggy. And thank God mines a MT tranny. After purchasing a 05 Accord EX Sedan I4, 5AT I knew there would be no power robbing AT in my Civic. AT almost ruins the Accord so I knew there was no way the spirit would be sucked from my Civic with one.
I know the lug-bug issue has some folks very steamed and I dont blame them one bit. Its not a wide spread problem. 30 folks plaster it all over the net and then some ones wanting to know if a class action law suite is in order. LMAO.
Ive talked with the service managers at the three local dealers in my area. Two I wouldn't trust nor purchase a car from and my dealer i did purchase from who i do trust. All claim to have not seen lug-bug or many of the other complaints that seem to be all over the net.
My dealers service manager went as far as to say 8th gen. Civic has been one of the best roll outs in years. Not near as many problems as the 7th gen. Civic rollout or Accord 7th gen appearance. Also better than Ody, Pilot, CRV and Element.
The new Civic's in every trim are starting to show up in ever increasing numbers on the streets here. I was the first in my county to own one by a couple of months. Now there showing up everywhere. Around here folks are friendly so Ive spoken to many new Civic owners. Ive spoken to at least a dozen new Civic owners in the Tulsa metro area. None of them have had any issues with the AT trannys, A few squeaks seems to be about it. Many of those cars live in the rural areas and have wash board country roads to deal with on a daily basics. Whoops my buddys early production EX Coupe 5 AT has what I call just lug. We did a tranny fluid flush on his car with M1-ATF and his problem has went away. Visited with him today.
I have seen afew folks have trouble with the heater duct like I did. Thats so minor its not important for the most part.
As for MPG? Mines good. But I strive to get good MPG. and the car see's a good mix of 75% hwy / 25% city. Dont think for min. that I havent abused it. I have abused it. It saw redline shifts with 20 miles on it brand new. And it still see's its share of rpm action. The brakes never got bedded in right. With 21 miles on it a buck jumped up on the hwy. That incited a full on panic stop. No harm done. The worst tank mpg Ive gotten was 29 mpg. With a bit of conservative hwy driving Ive seen a 45 mpg tank. The average looks to be 38 mpg.
I plan on auto-xing the car soon. Also going to take a trip to Pheonix in it next month. We are taking the Civic over the Accord. Also have a trip planed this summer for a run up to Chi-town then on up to Madison.
I dont mean to make lite of the folks that are having problems with there new Civic's. I wager that there are far more folks having no trouble with there new cars.
I for one would like to hear from folks about the fun things. What do friends and family think. I for one like the looks folks have on there faces when they look at mine on the road. Anybody taken theres out for a road trip? How did it do? Is there anything that surprises you about your car or that makes you smile. Have you found some little feature you didn't know the car had? Alot of folks dont know it has auto lock and unlock feature for the doors. I programed mine and didnt like it so I unprogramed it. Alot of folks mite like it. I know owners manuals aren't on the top of every ones must read list.
What makes you say the "lug bug" problem is not widespread? My dealer says it's a common problem and Honda is aware of it. If you owned a car with this problem I wonder what your take would be then?
MT's are great if you don't have stop and go traffic. I do so you can keep your MT.
roycroft, You'd be surprised what auto manufacturers don't tell the public. The public wouldn't buy cars of they knew what really went on behind closed doors. Ever hear of a new car launch being delayed? Yeah, that's because something really bad happened, like a supplier went out of business or the assembly line has a major issue. Or its by choice, ala MazdaSpeed6. Most of the time the rest of the issues usually get released with the car when the timeline says release the car. When you have marketing money already spent and ads already placed in magazines, and you have to beat competitor Y to the showroom, its too late to turn back. After the first car is shipped, the engineers get to play catch up. It's called risk assessment. Can the issue cause a major safety hazard? Is the issue noticeable to the customer? Can we wait it out until the mid-cycle refresh?
The average consumer has no idea what it takes to make what's called a running change to a part in a car. From when the issue is discovered, there are many many many steps involved in eliminating it. The time in which those steps are taken depends on the severity of the issue. For instance, the accelerator pedal recall on the Civic happened very quickly. That's a safety issue obviously. That's a top priority. They troubleshoot the cause, find a fix, test it, and get the parts out to the dealer's before you can say lemon. This "lug bug" issue, which Honda obviously knows about, will likely take some patience. Pinpointing the source may not be an easy task if its a vibration. What if its a transmission issue. They'll want to know what the exposure is and the least expensive way to fix it. Then they'll think about how many trannies they might have to replace. Maybe they can just reprogram. Maybe they can't. All of the business cases are considered. And since it's likely not a safety hazard, they'll take their time with it. They'll have to prove out the fix, in some cases this can take many months. Since its all about business and money, contracts and purchase orders run the manufacturing process. Suppliers need to get their suppliers up to speed, those suppliers need to get their raw material suppliers up to speed. It's a long process. Parts get made, retested and then shipped to the assembly plant. Then cars get made.
Now, as for telling the public about the issues; ever play poker with your cards facing everyone at the table? Not a good move. Maybe Honda can just change their slogan to "We make mistakes, please give us 20 large for one." Sorry for the sarcasm, but that's the reality. They'll never admit to a mistake until they have all of the answers. Would you buy a car from a company that admitted they have issues but have no idea how to fix them? And yes, Motor Trend awarded the Civic COTY. Press cars a usually hand built with white gloves and every part is rechecked for perfection. Besides, in the land of sue-happy people, I think a car company would cry "SLANDER" if a major publication ripped it for some weird noise under the hood.
I'm sorry for ranting and raving, but these comments about class action lawsuites....and suits (sorry again)gets my blood boiling. No fault to the mass majority though. There's a lot that goes on that you'll never know.
I too have the idle vibration problem at 700 RPM. There is obviously something wrong with it since other Civics do not do that. Strangely though, it seems to have gotten somewhat better with warmer weather. I wonder if it has something to do with the valves getting more warm air, and if there is a defective valve which causes the engine to vibrate when the air is cold.
As for MPG, I went back to read Consumer Reports about the 06 Civic. For the AT Sedan, it's supposed to be 28 MPG overall. The MT gets 31 MPG overall. For the AT, if I remember correctly, it's 22 MPG in the city, and 25 MPG for the MT in city driving.
Now, it's obvious that many users are getting better numbers than this. It can mean two things. Either their car is so much better than the ones tested by CR, or their road condition is very different.
CR's method is very rigorous and standardized. They have a city course with 20 stops, 4 minute idle time, etc. They also have a standardized hwy course, with multiple engineers driving the same course, bi-directionally. Plus there is also a 150 mile trip. After all that test, they come up 28 MPG for the AT Sedan, and 37 MPG for the Hybrid.
I suspect that if our MPG figures are much worse than theirs, something could be wrong with our car. But if someone's figure is much better than CR's, it could mean that they really luck out, and ending up with a non-hybrid that out-performs the Hybrid for mileage!
Well, may be not. There is city driving, and there is city driving. We all know it. Being stuck at each traffic light for 2 minutes, and doing that for a whole hour is city driving, but so is stopping just twice for a 2 mile city road. What makes CR's figures meaningful is that they test different vehicles using the same course, and you can get a sense of the RELATIVE mpg of different makes. The Echo, Corolla, Civic are at the top end, with other models behind them. So when people compare there City MPG, usually it's really comparing apple with oranges.
If someone's Civic non-hybrid Civic gets 35 MPG for city driving, and 100% of that city driving consists of taking a full hour to cover 20 city blocks of congested traffic, now that would be something. There might might be a big bidding contest for that particular car on eBay.
Say what you want, but I track my mileage carefully on my 06 4dr AT. With 8,000 miles my overall mileage is 36.46 mpg. 75% highway at 75mph, 25% stop and go city driving (w/short trips).
No lug bug either. My car has been perfect. So not EVERY 06 AT has problems.
"doesn't fall apart"is a figure of speech, not meant literally...
To quote 2 others here...
"I know the lug-bug issue has some folks very steamed and I dont blame them one bit. Its not a wide spread problem. 30 folks plaster it all over the net and then some ones wanting to know if a class action law suite is in order. LMAO."
"I'm sorry for ranting and raving, but these comments about class action lawsuites....and suits (sorry again)gets my blood boiling. No fault to the mass majority though. There's a lot that goes on that you'll never know."
enough said.... yes, there's "some engine noise", which I probably wouldn't have even noticed, it's so minor, but the boards brought it up... is it causing bad gas mileage? No, is it causing any other major issue? No... over time who knows, but we're not there yet, and supposedly Honda knows about the problem, so lawsuits, and complaining pre-maturely isn't in order.
CR's figures are very instructive. First, I notice that MPG for the Civic non-hybrid 4dr varies WILDLY depending on the 3 types of driving condition:
A= HW at 65 mph (41 mpg) B= 18 stops, 4 min total idle (20 mpg) C= 150 miles trip (36 mpg)
CR's 29 mpg rating for the Civic reflects an equal average of A/B/C. Someone says he gets 36 mpg on the Civic, but so did CR, when under the C condition. Now, if someone gets 36 in B condition, that would be cause for celebration. Even hybrid gets only 26 MPG in B condition.
So I am curious if anyone has more from CR on this topic. And indeed, if you manage to get 36 mpg under B condition, do share! How did you manage that and do you do anything special to get that? But if all we know is you can 36 mpg "in the city" and someone else gets 20 mpg instead, that's not anything one can compare.
What makes you say the "lug bug" problem is not widespread? My dealer says it's a common problem and Honda is aware of it. If you owned a car with this problem I wonder what your take would be then?
MT's are great if you don't have stop and go traffic. I do so you can keep your MT.
1) I wouldn't own a car as small as the Civic with a AT. Our 05 Accord is a AT. It functions well, dosent vibrate. Just basically ruins the heart and soul of the car. Its a known fact that AT's and small transverse 4 bangers dont get along well together. Ford had problems with the Escorts and Tracers. Bad vib and noise issues. The ZX2 makes the whole car shudder and shake something awful. VW has had problems as well as Chevy, Nissan and Toyota with shaking AT's in there smallest cars.
2) As said before,,, Ive spoken with three dealers there not seeing this issue. Ive spoken with a dozen or so owners of AT cars. There not seeing the issue. A buddy of mine has what I call a lug only problem. His keeps the torque converter locked at 1500 rpm and it did rumble and grumble a bit. We did a tranny flush with M1-ATF and most of the issue is fixed. You can still tell its lugging but its a bit smoother about it. Heck my 5MT will shudder, rumble and complain if I drive it around in 5th gear at 1500 rpm.
3) I have owned cars with this problem. And not once has a dealer fixed it. Most dealers cant even fix rattles and squeaks. You think there really going to try and fix a shaking engine. To listen how folks complain about rattles and squeaks in Accords and no dealer resolution you would think the cars are junk from post on the net. Well there not junk. Ours dosent squeak or rattle. Its a perfect example of why its a Car & Driver top ten car year after year. As my Civic is a perfect expample of Motor Trends award and others its garnered. If I owned a Civic or any other car with this problem I would be out in the driveway fixing it myself and madder than hell at the dealer for not beable to fix it. Our 99 Escort bought new did this with no dealer resolution. The fix was to block off front and back wheels, start the car, put it in drive with the A/C on, set the parking brake. With the car running loosen up all the motor and tranny mounts. Blip the throttle ever so lightly and then retighten all mounts with the engine running in said condition and position. Problem fixed. 91 Tracer bought new was found to be the combnation of the front under carriage and the rear under carriage. Mounts needed loosened and tightened. And a exhaust system braket adjusted. Was I made at Ford for not makeing these repairs? You bet. But I fixed them and then enjoyed well over 150k miles of trouble free driveing with both cars.
4) I do see stop and go traffic every morning and evening in Tulsa. I plan my route the best I can to avoid what I can. I see freeway construction, Road Rage and all the problems that go with a metro daily drive.
I truley hope Honda finds a fix for this issue for folks. I wouldnt plan on a fast resolution. Its hard to find at times. As I said before its a known problem with small four cyclinder cars and AT's. And not all of the cars have the issue.
1. I really don't want to get in an argument over which is better MT or AT. I think it is a ridiculous argument to have. I only wish the MT people would just accept that there is a large percentage of us who simply want an AT. That's the beauty of free choice. I have driven both MT and AT and while I agree the MT is more fun (at times), the AT is much more practical for my day to day driving needs. I have a sports car for my "fun" driving days.
2. As I said before, my dealer has had numerous complaints about this. In fact, he took me for a test drive in other cars from the lot and they all had the same problem. Honda also said they have had numerous complaints about this (I talked to them directly) but they don't have the solution yet. I think they will come up with a resolution.
By the way, what is M1-ATF? Is it the ATF that Honda recommends?
3. I have owned cars both domestic and foreign with AT and 4 Cylinders. I have never and I repeat never had this kind of problem. Why wouldn't I complain and try to get it fixed? I have also had rattles and squeaks fixed by dealers in the past--never a problem getting it done. I assume that Honda dealers will do the same.
It's funny that you were mad at Ford for your Tracer and Escort problems but you don't think people on this board should be mad at Honda? It's their money and talking about problems is an important part of forums like this. It helps us to see if our problem is isolated or not. Honda is far from perfect based on my experience so it helps to hear from other people.
4. I live in the Chicago area with very severe stop and go traffic. Sometimes there is no better route to use during rush hour(s) so you just live with it. I've driven MT's in stop and go and like I said before, you can keep it. I'll drive my MT on weekends when the traffic is clear.
The discussion here is interesting about MT vs AT. Quite honestly, I am not familiar with the "lug bug" issue. Are we talking about hesitation or not? The MTs are harder to find because the ATs get better gas mileage. I have an MT on an '06 Civic recently purchased. That is just my personal choice. One dealer I contacted had not ordered any '06 Civics with AT since the model was introduced. I asked him why and he said the ATs get better mileage. I checked the figures and that is right.
----1. I really don't want to get in an argument over which is better MT or AT. I think it is a ridiculous argument to have. I only wish the MT people would just accept that there is a large percentage of us who simply want an AT. That's the beauty of free choice. I have driven both MT and AT and while I agree the MT is more fun (at times), the AT is much more practical for my day to day driving needs. I have a sports car for my "fun" driving days.
++++ I hear yeah. Theres no argument.
----2. As I said before, my dealer has had numerous complaints about this. In fact, he took me for a test drive in other cars from the lot and they all had the same problem. Honda also said they have had numerous complaints about this (I talked to them directly) but they don't have the solution yet. I think they will come up with a resolution.
++++ I really hope they do come up with a fix. Really I do.
----By the way, what is M1-ATF? Is it the ATF that Honda recommends?
++++ Its Mobil's synthetic ATF fluid. No Honda dosent recommend it. Nor do they recommend there motor oil either. I flushed our Accord AT with it. Now shifts firmer and running tranny fluid temps drop by almost 20 degrees F as measured by my Fluke meter with temp probe attached to trany dipstick. Hondas fluids are good. I just choose to use diff. products to get the results I want. A slipping, soft shifting, heat rendering, clutch wearing AT is not what I want.
----3. I have owned cars both domestic and foreign with AT and 4 Cylinders. I have never and I repeat never had this kind of problem. Why wouldn't I complain and try to get it fixed? I have also had rattles and squeaks fixed by dealers in the past--never a problem getting it done. I assume that Honda dealers will do the same.
It's funny that you were mad at Ford for your Tracer and Escort problems but you don't think people on this board should be mad at Honda? It's their money and talking about problems is an important part of forums like this. It helps us to see if our problem is isolated or not. Honda is far from perfect based on my experience so it helps to hear from other people.
++++ Im glad you havent had these types of problems in your past cars. Im very glad to hear it. And very sorry you are having them now. I fear its such a problem that you cant enjoy your car for its intended purpose. That is a shame.
Yes I was very mad at Ford for there lack of attention to the issues IMO. I either had to accept the problems, fix them myself or get rid of the offending car. I choose to fix it myself. Get happy and move on with a otherwise positive owner experience.
There have been a few post concerning the heater duct issue that heats up the center consul and lower center dash. I had the problem and fixed it myself. A simple screw and 30 mins. of my time and its over with. Ive seen folks post that they have had to make up to three trips to a dealer to get the problem fixed,,, >>> with a simple screw. I cant drive to a dealer in 30 mins. Much less do it three times to get such a issue addressed. I have written it up with pics and posted here and on other fourms so others if they choose can address it them selfs and get back to enjoying there car. Same with M1-ATF in my buddys AT Civic. In his case as with some others it may be as simple as a flash/update of the control unit. As of yet it hasn't happened. Honda cant void your warranty cause you used other fluids.
----4. I live in the Chicago area with very severe stop and go traffic. Sometimes there is no better route to use during rush hour(s) so you just live with it. I've driven MT's in stop and go and like I said before, you can keep it. I'll drive my MT on weekends when the traffic is clear.
++++ Boy that is a mess. I have to go to Chicago for work once in a while. I fight tooth and nail to not have to go. Or delay it untill they either forget about it or agree to send me up there in a drunken stooper. I can see where the issue is really screwing you up. Your a better person than I. Leave there with new found hate for mankind,, every time.
I admit that I have not driven one of the great looking new Civics, but I have a 99 Ody that has annoyed me for 117K miles with the droning sound from around 48 mph to 58 mph. It is quite a bit like lugging in high gear. My take is that Honda is squeaking every last bit of gas mileage out of their gearing. Don't know whether you agree with that or not, but the 99 Ody is the first time I have experience lugging in an auto tranny. Still love the Ody for the long hauls and its people carrying ability.
Hi Everyone - this is my first post. I was compelled to chime in after I read about the "rumbling" and "chugging" at 1500 RPM.
I have a 2006 Civic LX AT with about 1700 miles. Although I had never noticed it before, I read different posts about the issue and decided to check mine out. Here is my opinion of what is happening:
Mine happens if I hold a constant speed long enough to where it shifts into the lowest gear possible to generate 1500 rpm's. The lugging I feel is when I then tap on the accelerator gently, and it acts as if it won't immediately shift into a lower gear to accelerate, causing the engine to vibrate under the strain of the higher gear.
Over the weekend I was buffing the hood of the car (by hand - carnauba wax) and I noticed the hood had some "play" to it. It kind of had a deep pitched rattle as I buffed in a circular motion. That leads me to think the rumbling in conjunction with the lugging is from the hood rattling. I had a 1989 Mercury Tracer years ago that rattled at idle from the same hood issue.
2006 LX Auto sedan. What you are saying is possible. I haven't touched my hood except to open and close it so I have no idea how much play it has. But, for me , since I also have this growling noise at 1500rpm, it sounds like it would be coming from outside somewhere. I don't feel anything in the steering wheel. I rarely notice a real vibration, like first thing this morning. Lasts only a second but, it definitaely sounds like not only a growl but also a vibration outside somewhere. Not only do I get the lugging feeling while driving and the car is at 1500 rpm, but also, I found that if I am slowly accelerating to the speed I want , like from 35 - 35 miles per hour or so, I noticed how as the car is slowly increasing in speed, the tachometer needle actually is coming down from 1800 or so down to 1500 and gets lugged at 1500 and stays there. Feels weird like the car is in the wrong gear.
Yes it does feel weird. I personally prefer a standard transmission in small cars, but found out that it would be hard to come by in the LX sedan. I have not had an automatic in my Civics since my 1993 LX, and now I remember that is one of the reasons I bought the 1997 with a standard.
I think the "problem" is that they mate a 5 speed auto with a 4 cylinder engine. Then, they try to keep the RPM's down to save gas and increase mileage and that results in the lugging.
I still love the car and wouldn't trade it for anything!
I think your basic premise that engine RPM is kept low to maximize gas mileage is probably correct BUT the fact the engine MAY be slightly lugging at 1500 RPM in 4th or 5th gear isn't the cause for the noise. As I have stated the noise isn't "engine" generated i.e. pinging but instead some other brace/bracket/attachment point or component that is underbody and that through sympathetic harmonics simply vibrates causing its own noise (the "growl" everybody hears) at 1500 RPM. This component etc. may feel rock solid if a dealer tech raps on it trying to generate the noise under static conditions, that is sitting on a lift engine off. Has anybody tried having one person in the car..engine running in gear and accelerating thru 1500 RPM while another is underneath (on a lift of course) carefully listening for the noise?
I understand that the lugging is not causing noise from the engine. But when an engine "lugs" under the strain of too high of a gear, it will shake, shimmy or vibrate somewhat. I remember the feeling in my manuals when I would inadvertently hit fifth gear instead of third during acceleration. No pinging (or other) noise, but you could definitely feel that engine strain and the gear shifter would shake.
What follows next: it transfers the vibration, etc. to the car itself via the motor mounts, which then causes the hood to vibrate. The vibration then resonates in the cabin/engine compartment/body of the car, thus creating the rumble I hear.
the car does not do this in park or neutral so they would have to have it on one of those lifts that let the wheels roll as if you were on a real road. forget what its called. dyno or something
by the way, these have been all really good descriptions over the last several weeks, however, when are we going to have some factual/concrete solutions? Well, I mentioned it to my dealer service centre. He just said he could get the mechanic to test drive it and try to reproduce it to try to pinpoint the noise. However, I still have about 2000 miles to go before I get my first oil change and I would rather wait a bit. I want to give HOnda as much time as possible to maybe come up with a service adjustment.
It just occurred to me that in addition to passing thru 1500 RPM in the higher gears I have reproduced this sound while passing thru in 1st and 2nd gears also so maybe we can throw out the "too low of an RPM for road speed" theory.
I'll take a look at my hood adjustments some night this week. I just have not had time so I'll see what I can come up with. I'll take a look at the latch mechanism.
I had the same service issue on the Tracer. The mechanic could not "reproduce" it, so I just grabbed the hood and rattled it by hand!! He fixed it then in no time!
psy wrote: "Its a known fact that AT's and small transverse 4 bangers dont get along well together."
This is simply not technically correct. There are plenty of cars out there with transverse inline 4's with AT that are very smooth. And, if you wish brands and models, I will be happy to provide the information.
My SAAB 9000 with a transvere Inline 4 with turbocharger is as smooth as any 4 or 6-cylinder (V6 or Inline 6) I've ever driven. Its design includes counter-rotating balance shafts, as do many Inline 4 designs of today - and, it's a 15 to 20 year old design.
This is the car I am waiting for. I don't care for the coupe. The pictures I have seen of the SI Sedan look awesome. I will definately consider this car.
engine noise - anyone notice what is best described as an air intake noise under acceleration. Noise is similar to a diesel turbocharger air intake whine. Seems to be in the area of the fan belt when the fan is running. Just like to know if anyone else notices this before I take it in to Honda. Thanks.
Just curious...how did they fix the wind noise?? I have it in my 06 ex sedan, and the dealer told me that the design of the side mirrors (sticking out so far away from the door) was the cause! I hear it coming in from the corner of the window, near the little fixed windows (both sides). thanks, Rob :confuse:
What mpg is your Civic delivering? I ask because mine was built in Ohio on 2/08 and has the "growl" in the powertrain at 1500 rpm as documented in many postings. Your mfg. date has me wondering if Honda has implemented a fix with clean-point somewhere between 2/08 and 3/09 and, if so, how "fix" might impact mpg.
Oh goody a recently built car. Maybe you can be our "later built car" test subject with regard to what has become known as the "lug bug" harmonic vibration issue. I am sure you know from reading any of the posts about the subject there is a "growl" type noise generated at about 1500 RPM in 4th or 5th gear (this translates to about 40+ MPH road speed). This noise can be quite noticeable and not readily missed. Anyhow do us the favor, if you didn't already do so, of taking your car for a little drive at 40 MPH in high gear and LISTEN...please report back.
Mine EX coupe was built in Canada in November 2005. I average 32 to 35 mpg. My dealer is waiting for Honda to issue a revised chip for the computer that controls shift points. I don't know if adjusting shift points would make all that much different in mileage. I didn't start noticing the "growl" until I had approx. 1000 miles on the car. Other than that its been a great car.
Wow, this is interesting stuff. I will ask my dealer if he knows anything about this. This would be an easy fix I think, if it takes that growling noise away. My car has that darn noise at 1500 rpm. I wonder if there would be a recall on this or are dealerships just going to wait until people come into the dealership complaining about it.
I also just took delivery of a 2006 Civic Sedan EX auto. Also built 3/06 in Ohio. I've been reading this forum and have been on the lookout for that 1500rpm sensation. I have 90 miles of mostly highway driving, no radio, windows closed. I haven't noticed anything unusual. My ears may not be tuned to this sort of thing as well as you folks; I'll continue to listen.
"Just curious...how did they fix the wind noise?? I have it in my 06 ex sedan, and the dealer told me that the design of the side mirrors (sticking out so far away from the door) was the cause! I hear it coming in from the corner of the window, near the little fixed windows (both sides). thanks, Rob"
After 20 attempts the fix was a small piece of foam to seal the gap at the front bottom corner of the front door window, not the triangle window. My triangle window, various moldings, seals, yada yada were repeatedly replaced. Finally discovered that a production inconsistency in the molding that runs along the bottom of the glass in the front door windows leaves a variable gap at the front bottom corner. We're taking a variation of fractions of a mm, but it makes a difference in the noise. A Honda tech-line engineer came out and spent two days working on it, including putting custom padding on the inside of the door panel. He ended up making it worse. He also told me that they even tried replacing the entire driver's door on another 06 sedan, and that didn't solve the problem. It was dumb luck that we discovered sealing that little hole would stop the noise. Now the car is silent all the way up to 117, which is the fastest I've had it to.
Tell your dealer to contact tech-line, as this problem is well documented. Don't know how long it will take for Honda to issue a bulletin on this.
Look for my email on parenteen.org and drop me a line if you want me to send you pictures.
Miraclously, the idle vibration (not the 1500 rpm one, which I don't have) has gotten a lot better after 2000 miles. The problem seems correlated with temperature. Less vibration when it's warmer. My engine used to make a tapping sound, like tapping a spoon quickly on a metal table. Now, it makes a faster but smoother sound, much like the sound of the bicycle chain when you are riding the bicycle. Early on, the dealer said that I have a "sticky valve" which they say would unstuck by itself after a while. I wonder if this explains the vibration and the gradual improvement I am seeing as the car gets broken in more. Anyone has any ideas on this? Should my valve still be fixed manually or should I just let the car continue to break-in more?
For MPG, there are 25 registered users at fueleconomy.gov reporting regularly on their mileage experience with the 06 Civic non-hybrid (go to this link www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=mpgData&vehicleID=21736&details=on&browser- =true)
Except for 2 people, the rest are getting an average of 31 MPG. This seems very consistent with Consumer Report's test finding: 41 MPG on HW, 19 MPG in real life city traffic, and 29 MPG overall. Like most cars, the Civic's MPG seems to vary tremondously depending on road condition. E.g., CR, in the same test, got 36 MPG for their 150 mile trip, which itself is supposed to consist mostly of "stop and good" traffic. Yet, that sort of "stop and good" obviously is no where as bad for mileage as CR's "city traffic" test condition, namely, 18 traffic lights, speed below 40 mph, with 4 min idle in total. As such, the person who has driven 30 miles of HW to arrive at the mall and found parking within 1 minute can potentally have a completely different MPG than the one who drove the same 30 miles HW and spent 10 minutes looking for parking. Does this make sense in the context of your mpg experience?
thank you very much for your excellent reply!! I will definitely talk to my Honda dealer.....I might even try to fix it first myself. Your detailed answer certainly gives me confidence to try it! Thanks again! -Rob
This is a quote from another member that best describes my opinion of what was occurring.
"I have had the same problem with numerous visits back to the dealer. My dealer has been in contact with Honda's engineers who have admitted that the problem is similar to what you might experience with a manual transmission car being driven too slow in fourth gear. You get a growl because you're going to slow for the gear it's in. The car isn't downshifting into the lower gear soon enough."
The car belongs to my wife, who possesses a class A license though she may not know how to repair motor vehicles, she drives constantly and has a good understanding of how it should operate.
It is a EX Sedan purchased in September... one other problem I am having is the drivers window falling off the track ... I have known civics to have been plagued with this problem in the past by prior TSB's ... but I have been warned by my dealership it is due to a aftermarket tint that has been installed and have been informed that it will no longer be repaired under warranty. :confuse:
Just wondering if a newly delivered Civic is treated with any kind of body finish protectant at the factory. Does anyone recommend bringing a new Civic in for a professional waxing or Simoniz? I live in New York City and my car is kept outside. I can't do the work myself, but if anyone can suggest a specific product or procedure, I can have it done. Thanks. Ken
Although this seems low, I don't know the driving conditions in which you received 20 mpg. I consistently get in the 32-35 mpg range with mostly city driving. That is with an automatic transmission. You may try a different gas station for a tank or two. I use 85 octane in Colorado, 87 everywhere else. I typically fill up around 340 to 350 miles on a tank with 10-11 gallons of gas.
Comments
I know that Honda is known for their reliability, but if this is how they plan to manufacture their new vehicles then I'll pass. Before they were just bland, but reliable. Now if they're gonna be both I'll look elsewhere. :lemon:
I know the lug-bug issue has some folks very steamed and I dont blame them one bit. Its not a wide spread problem. 30 folks plaster it all over the net and then some ones wanting to know if a class action law suite is in order. LMAO.
Ive talked with the service managers at the three local dealers in my area. Two I wouldn't trust nor purchase a car from and my dealer i did purchase from who i do trust. All claim to have not seen lug-bug or many of the other complaints that seem to be all over the net.
My dealers service manager went as far as to say 8th gen. Civic has been one of the best roll outs in years. Not near as many problems as the 7th gen. Civic rollout or Accord 7th gen appearance. Also better than Ody, Pilot, CRV and Element.
The new Civic's in every trim are starting to show up in ever increasing numbers on the streets here. I was the first in my county to own one by a couple of months. Now there showing up everywhere. Around here folks are friendly so Ive spoken to many new Civic owners. Ive spoken to at least a dozen new Civic owners in the Tulsa metro area. None of them have had any issues with the AT trannys, A few squeaks seems to be about it. Many of those cars live in the rural areas and have wash board country roads to deal with on a daily basics. Whoops my buddys early production EX Coupe 5 AT has what I call just lug. We did a tranny fluid flush on his car with M1-ATF and his problem has went away. Visited with him today.
I have seen afew folks have trouble with the heater duct like I did. Thats so minor its not important for the most part.
As for MPG? Mines good. But I strive to get good MPG. and the car see's a good mix of 75% hwy / 25% city. Dont think for min. that I havent abused it. I have abused it.
I plan on auto-xing the car soon. Also going to take a trip to Pheonix in it next month. We are taking the Civic over the Accord.
I dont mean to make lite of the folks that are having problems with there new Civic's. I wager that there are far more folks having no trouble with there new cars.
I for one would like to hear from folks about the fun things. What do friends and family think. I for one like the looks folks have on there faces when they look at mine on the road. Anybody taken theres out for a road trip? How did it do? Is there anything that surprises you about your car or that makes you smile. Have you found some little feature you didn't know the car had? Alot of folks dont know it has auto lock and unlock feature for the doors. I programed mine and didnt like it so I unprogramed it. Alot of folks mite like it. I know owners manuals aren't on the top of every ones must read list.
I for one enjoy the heck out of my little Civic!
MT's are great if you don't have stop and go traffic. I do so you can keep your MT.
You'd be surprised what auto manufacturers don't tell the public. The public wouldn't buy cars of they knew what really went on behind closed doors. Ever hear of a new car launch being delayed? Yeah, that's because something really bad happened, like a supplier went out of business or the assembly line has a major issue. Or its by choice, ala MazdaSpeed6. Most of the time the rest of the issues usually get released with the car when the timeline says release the car. When you have marketing money already spent and ads already placed in magazines, and you have to beat competitor Y to the showroom, its too late to turn back. After the first car is shipped, the engineers get to play catch up. It's called risk assessment. Can the issue cause a major safety hazard? Is the issue noticeable to the customer? Can we wait it out until the mid-cycle refresh?
The average consumer has no idea what it takes to make what's called a running change to a part in a car. From when the issue is discovered, there are many many many steps involved in eliminating it. The time in which those steps are taken depends on the severity of the issue. For instance, the accelerator pedal recall on the Civic happened very quickly. That's a safety issue obviously. That's a top priority. They troubleshoot the cause, find a fix, test it, and get the parts out to the dealer's before you can say lemon. This "lug bug" issue, which Honda obviously knows about, will likely take some patience. Pinpointing the source may not be an easy task if its a vibration. What if its a transmission issue. They'll want to know what the exposure is and the least expensive way to fix it. Then they'll think about how many trannies they might have to replace. Maybe they can just reprogram. Maybe they can't. All of the business cases are considered. And since it's likely not a safety hazard, they'll take their time with it. They'll have to prove out the fix, in some cases this can take many months. Since its all about business and money, contracts and purchase orders run the manufacturing process. Suppliers need to get their suppliers up to speed, those suppliers need to get their raw material suppliers up to speed. It's a long process. Parts get made, retested and then shipped to the assembly plant. Then cars get made.
Now, as for telling the public about the issues; ever play poker with your cards facing everyone at the table? Not a good move. Maybe Honda can just change their slogan to "We make mistakes, please give us 20 large for one." Sorry for the sarcasm, but that's the reality. They'll never admit to a mistake until they have all of the answers. Would you buy a car from a company that admitted they have issues but have no idea how to fix them? And yes, Motor Trend awarded the Civic COTY. Press cars a usually hand built with white gloves and every part is rechecked for perfection. Besides, in the land of sue-happy people, I think a car company would cry "SLANDER" if a major publication ripped it for some weird noise under the hood.
I'm sorry for ranting and raving, but these comments about class action lawsuites....and suits (sorry again)gets my blood boiling. No fault to the mass majority though. There's a lot that goes on that you'll never know.
Dave
As for MPG, I went back to read Consumer Reports about the 06 Civic. For the AT Sedan, it's supposed to be 28 MPG overall. The MT gets 31 MPG overall. For the AT, if I remember correctly, it's 22 MPG in the city, and 25 MPG for the MT in city driving.
Now, it's obvious that many users are getting better numbers than this. It can mean two things. Either their car is so much better than the ones tested by CR, or their road condition is very different.
CR's method is very rigorous and standardized. They have a city course with 20 stops, 4 minute idle time, etc. They also have a standardized hwy course, with multiple engineers driving the same course, bi-directionally. Plus there is also a 150 mile trip. After all that test, they come up 28 MPG for the AT Sedan, and 37 MPG for the Hybrid.
I suspect that if our MPG figures are much worse than theirs, something could be wrong with our car. But if someone's figure is much better than CR's, it could mean that they really luck out, and ending up with a non-hybrid that out-performs the Hybrid for mileage!
Well, may be not. There is city driving, and there is city driving. We all know it. Being stuck at each traffic light for 2 minutes, and doing that for a whole hour is city driving, but so is stopping just twice for a 2 mile city road. What makes CR's figures meaningful is that they test different vehicles using the same course, and you can get a sense of the RELATIVE mpg of different makes. The Echo, Corolla, Civic are at the top end, with other models behind them. So when people compare there City MPG, usually it's really comparing apple with oranges.
If someone's Civic non-hybrid Civic gets 35 MPG for city driving, and 100% of that city driving consists of taking a full hour to cover 20 city blocks of congested traffic, now that would be something. There might might be a big bidding contest for that particular car on eBay.
No lug bug either. My car has been perfect. So not EVERY 06 AT has problems.
To quote 2 others here...
"I know the lug-bug issue has some folks very steamed and I dont blame them one bit. Its not a wide spread problem. 30 folks plaster it all over the net and then some ones wanting to know if a class action law suite is in order. LMAO."
"I'm sorry for ranting and raving, but these comments about class action lawsuites....and suits (sorry again)gets my blood boiling. No fault to the mass majority though. There's a lot that goes on that you'll never know."
enough said.... yes, there's "some engine noise", which I probably wouldn't have even noticed, it's so minor, but the boards brought it up... is it causing bad gas mileage? No, is it causing any other major issue? No... over time who knows, but we're not there yet, and supposedly Honda knows about the problem, so lawsuits, and complaining pre-maturely isn't in order.
From the limited info I read, CR tests MPG for test every car the same way, and the cars are ranked according. See these two links:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/01/cr_mileage.html
http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/article/fuel_efficient_cars_category.html-
CR's figures are very instructive. First, I notice that MPG for the Civic non-hybrid 4dr varies WILDLY depending on the 3 types of driving condition:
A= HW at 65 mph (41 mpg)
B= 18 stops, 4 min total idle (20 mpg)
C= 150 miles trip (36 mpg)
CR's 29 mpg rating for the Civic reflects an equal average of A/B/C. Someone says he gets 36 mpg on the Civic, but so did CR, when under the C condition. Now, if someone gets 36 in B condition, that would be cause for celebration. Even hybrid gets only 26 MPG in B condition.
So I am curious if anyone has more from CR on this topic. And indeed, if you manage to get 36 mpg under B condition, do share! How did you manage that and do you do anything special to get that? But if all we know is you can 36 mpg "in the city" and someone else gets 20 mpg instead, that's not anything one can compare.
MT's are great if you don't have stop and go traffic. I do so you can keep your MT.
1) I wouldn't own a car as small as the Civic with a AT. Our 05 Accord is a AT. It functions well, dosent vibrate. Just basically ruins the heart and soul of the car. Its a known fact that AT's and small transverse 4 bangers dont get along well together. Ford had problems with the Escorts and Tracers. Bad vib and noise issues. The ZX2 makes the whole car shudder and shake something awful. VW has had problems as well as Chevy, Nissan and Toyota with shaking AT's in there smallest cars.
2) As said before,,, Ive spoken with three dealers there not seeing this issue. Ive spoken with a dozen or so owners of AT cars. There not seeing the issue. A buddy of mine has what I call a lug only problem. His keeps the torque converter locked at 1500 rpm and it did rumble and grumble a bit. We did a tranny flush with M1-ATF and most of the issue is fixed. You can still tell its lugging but its a bit smoother about it. Heck my 5MT will shudder, rumble and complain if I drive it around in 5th gear at 1500 rpm.
3) I have owned cars with this problem. And not once has a dealer fixed it. Most dealers cant even fix rattles and squeaks. You think there really going to try and fix a shaking engine. To listen how folks complain about rattles and squeaks in Accords and no dealer resolution you would think the cars are junk from post on the net. Well there not junk. Ours dosent squeak or rattle. Its a perfect example of why its a Car & Driver top ten car year after year. As my Civic is a perfect expample of Motor Trends award and others its garnered. If I owned a Civic or any other car with this problem I would be out in the driveway fixing it myself and madder than hell at the dealer for not beable to fix it. Our 99 Escort bought new did this with no dealer resolution. The fix was to block off front and back wheels, start the car, put it in drive with the A/C on, set the parking brake. With the car running loosen up all the motor and tranny mounts. Blip the throttle ever so lightly and then retighten all mounts with the engine running in said condition and position. Problem fixed. 91 Tracer bought new was found to be the combnation of the front under carriage and the rear under carriage. Mounts needed loosened and tightened. And a exhaust system braket adjusted. Was I made at Ford for not makeing these repairs? You bet. But I fixed them and then enjoyed well over 150k miles of trouble free driveing with both cars.
4) I do see stop and go traffic every morning and evening in Tulsa. I plan my route the best I can to avoid what I can. I see freeway construction, Road Rage and all the problems that go with a metro daily drive.
I truley hope Honda finds a fix for this issue for folks. I wouldnt plan on a fast resolution. Its hard to find at times. As I said before its a known problem with small four cyclinder cars and AT's. And not all of the cars have the issue.
2. As I said before, my dealer has had numerous complaints about this. In fact, he took me for a test drive in other cars from the lot and they all had the same problem. Honda also said they have had numerous complaints about this (I talked to them directly) but they don't have the solution yet. I think they will come up with a resolution.
By the way, what is M1-ATF? Is it the ATF that Honda recommends?
3. I have owned cars both domestic and foreign with AT and 4 Cylinders. I have never and I repeat never had this kind of problem. Why wouldn't I complain and try to get it fixed? I have also had rattles and squeaks fixed by dealers in the past--never a problem getting it done. I assume that Honda dealers will do the same.
It's funny that you were mad at Ford for your Tracer and Escort problems but you don't think people on this board should be mad at Honda? It's their money and talking about problems is an important part of forums like this. It helps us to see if our problem is isolated or not. Honda is far from perfect based on my experience so it helps to hear from other people.
4. I live in the Chicago area with very severe stop and go traffic. Sometimes there is no better route to use during rush hour(s) so you just live with it. I've driven MT's in stop and go and like I said before, you can keep it. I'll drive my MT on weekends when the traffic is clear.
++++ I hear yeah. Theres no argument.
----2. As I said before, my dealer has had numerous complaints about this. In fact, he took me for a test drive in other cars from the lot and they all had the same problem. Honda also said they have had numerous complaints about this (I talked to them directly) but they don't have the solution yet. I think they will come up with a resolution.
++++ I really hope they do come up with a fix. Really I do.
----By the way, what is M1-ATF? Is it the ATF that Honda recommends?
++++ Its Mobil's synthetic ATF fluid. No Honda dosent recommend it. Nor do they recommend there motor oil either. I flushed our Accord AT with it. Now shifts firmer and running tranny fluid temps drop by almost 20 degrees F as measured by my Fluke meter with temp probe attached to trany dipstick. Hondas fluids are good. I just choose to use diff. products to get the results I want. A slipping, soft shifting, heat rendering, clutch wearing AT is not what I want.
----3. I have owned cars both domestic and foreign with AT and 4 Cylinders. I have never and I repeat never had this kind of problem. Why wouldn't I complain and try to get it fixed? I have also had rattles and squeaks fixed by dealers in the past--never a problem getting it done. I assume that Honda dealers will do the same.
It's funny that you were mad at Ford for your Tracer and Escort problems but you don't think people on this board should be mad at Honda? It's their money and talking about problems is an important part of forums like this. It helps us to see if our problem is isolated or not. Honda is far from perfect based on my experience so it helps to hear from other people.
++++ Im glad you havent had these types of problems in your past cars. Im very glad to hear it. And very sorry you are having them now. I fear its such a problem that you cant enjoy your car for its intended purpose. That is a shame.
Yes I was very mad at Ford for there lack of attention to the issues IMO. I either had to accept the problems, fix them myself or get rid of the offending car. I choose to fix it myself. Get happy and move on with a otherwise positive owner experience.
There have been a few post concerning the heater duct issue that heats up the center consul and lower center dash. I had the problem and fixed it myself. A simple screw and 30 mins. of my time and its over with. Ive seen folks post that they have had to make up to three trips to a dealer to get the problem fixed,,, >>> with a simple screw. I cant drive to a dealer in 30 mins. Much less do it three times to get such a issue addressed. I have written it up with pics and posted here and on other fourms so others if they choose can address it them selfs and get back to enjoying there car. Same with M1-ATF in my buddys AT Civic. In his case as with some others it may be as simple as a flash/update of the control unit. As of yet it hasn't happened. Honda cant void your warranty cause you used other fluids.
----4. I live in the Chicago area with very severe stop and go traffic. Sometimes there is no better route to use during rush hour(s) so you just live with it. I've driven MT's in stop and go and like I said before, you can keep it. I'll drive my MT on weekends when the traffic is clear.
++++ Boy that is a mess. I have to go to Chicago for work once in a while. I fight tooth and nail to not have to go. Or delay it untill they either forget about it or agree to send me up there in a drunken stooper.
Good Luck
psy
I have a 2006 Civic LX AT with about 1700 miles. Although I had never noticed it before, I read different posts about the issue and decided to check mine out. Here is my opinion of what is happening:
Mine happens if I hold a constant speed long enough to where it shifts into the lowest gear possible to generate 1500 rpm's. The lugging I feel is when I then tap on the accelerator gently, and it acts as if it won't immediately shift into a lower gear to accelerate, causing the engine to vibrate under the strain of the higher gear.
Over the weekend I was buffing the hood of the car (by hand - carnauba wax) and I noticed the hood had some "play" to it. It kind of had a deep pitched rattle as I buffed in a circular motion. That leads me to think the rumbling in conjunction with the lugging is from the hood rattling. I had a 1989 Mercury Tracer years ago that rattled at idle from the same hood issue.
Thanks - that's just my thoughts for everyone.
I think the "problem" is that they mate a 5 speed auto with a 4 cylinder engine. Then, they try to keep the RPM's down to save gas and increase mileage and that results in the lugging.
I still love the car and wouldn't trade it for anything!
What follows next: it transfers the vibration, etc. to the car itself via the motor mounts, which then causes the hood to vibrate. The vibration then resonates in the cabin/engine compartment/body of the car, thus creating the rumble I hear.
I had the same service issue on the Tracer. The mechanic could not "reproduce" it, so I just grabbed the hood and rattled it by hand!! He fixed it then in no time!
This is simply not technically correct. There are plenty of cars out there with transverse inline 4's with AT that are very smooth. And, if you wish brands and models, I will be happy to provide the information.
My SAAB 9000 with a transvere Inline 4 with turbocharger is as smooth as any 4 or 6-cylinder (V6 or Inline 6) I've ever driven. Its design includes counter-rotating balance shafts, as do many Inline 4 designs of today - and, it's a 15 to 20 year old design.
Thanks.
Thanks!!
After 20 attempts the fix was a small piece of foam to seal the gap at the front bottom corner of the front door window, not the triangle window. My triangle window, various moldings, seals, yada yada were repeatedly replaced. Finally discovered that a production inconsistency in the molding that runs along the bottom of the glass in the front door windows leaves a variable gap at the front bottom corner. We're taking a variation of fractions of a mm, but it makes a difference in the noise. A Honda tech-line engineer came out and spent two days working on it, including putting custom padding on the inside of the door panel. He ended up making it worse. He also told me that they even tried replacing the entire driver's door on another 06 sedan, and that didn't solve the problem. It was dumb luck that we discovered sealing that little hole would stop the noise. Now the car is silent all the way up to 117, which is the fastest I've had it to.
Tell your dealer to contact tech-line, as this problem is well documented. Don't know how long it will take for Honda to issue a bulletin on this.
Look for my email on parenteen.org and drop me a line if you want me to send you pictures.
For MPG, there are 25 registered users at fueleconomy.gov reporting regularly on their mileage experience with the 06 Civic non-hybrid (go to this link www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=mpgData&vehicleID=21736&details=on&browser- =true)
Except for 2 people, the rest are getting an average of 31 MPG. This seems very consistent with Consumer Report's test finding: 41 MPG on HW, 19 MPG in real life city traffic, and 29 MPG overall. Like most cars, the Civic's MPG seems to vary tremondously depending on road condition. E.g., CR, in the same test, got 36 MPG for their 150 mile trip, which itself is supposed to consist mostly of "stop and good" traffic. Yet, that sort of "stop and good" obviously is no where as bad for mileage as CR's "city traffic" test condition, namely, 18 traffic lights, speed below 40 mph, with 4 min idle in total. As such, the person who has driven 30 miles of HW to arrive at the mall and found parking within 1 minute can potentally have a completely different MPG than the one who drove the same 30 miles HW and spent 10 minutes looking for parking. Does this make sense in the context of your mpg experience?
This is a quote from another member that best describes my opinion of what was occurring.
"I have had the same problem with numerous visits back to the dealer. My dealer has been in contact with Honda's engineers who have admitted that the problem is similar to what you might experience with a manual transmission car being driven too slow in fourth gear. You get a growl because you're going to slow for the gear it's in. The car isn't downshifting into the lower gear soon enough."
The car belongs to my wife, who possesses a class A license though she may not know how to repair motor vehicles, she drives constantly and has a good understanding of how it should operate.
It is a EX Sedan purchased in September... one other problem I am having is the drivers window falling off the track ... I have known civics to have been plagued with this problem in the past by prior TSB's ... but I have been warned by my dealership it is due to a aftermarket tint that has been installed and have been informed that it will no longer be repaired under warranty. :confuse:
Len
Len
Ken