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Daimler's abuse of the Dodge Charger legacy.
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Daimler CEO, "We're going to design a new Ferrari 308 GTB."
Token Ferrari Exec, "Fantastic, it's a Ferrari classic that was known for an appealing aerodynamic body and aggressive stance. With wind tunnel tests we can decrease its drag and improve its performance even more."
Chief Daimler Designer & CEO golf buddy, "Hold on, that's too costly. We just want the name for sales; we don't want this car to draw upon the 308's sex appeal or racing legacy. I want it to look as if it has mutated into a completely different vehicle."
Daimler CEO, "That's a great Idea; we can save money by putting it on our shorter, stubby Mercedes frames."
Chief Daimler Designer, "Yes, by chopping off that sleek Ferrari nose and replacing it with a grill from a delivery van we can do this. Also, by putting disproportionately huge rear wheel wells on the car, we can maintain the look of a toad that's about to leap upon its prey."
Token Ferrari exec, "What are you talking about? You're completely ignoring the Ferrari mystique and design cues. What seasoned Ferrari enthusiast is going to buy one of your cardboard boxes?”
Daimler CEO, "We just want the Ferrari logo on the car for name recognition. If those, "Stuck in the Past" Ferrari owners don't like it they can take their business elsewhere and you can let the door hit their butts on the way out.”
Daimler Marketing Department, "Yeah, and to promote the vehicle we can get some paroled rap artist to fawn all over the car to pump up the youth sales. Then, we could turn around and sell it to the police. That way we can get sales from both sides of the law. Also, if we pay off a few race car drivers, they'll give the trophy for the cutest baby to the ugliest kid on the stage, or car in this case.“
Daimler CEO, "How about a movie with the new Ferrari 308 GTB based on the Magnum P.I. TV show? Instead of driving up in the older and sleeker version we can have him drive up in our new delivery van Ferrari 308 GTB.”
Daimler Chief Designer, "Yes, yes and I can put a stripe on the car to make it look exciting. Those kids are so gullible, you know.“
Token Ferrari Exec, "You're destroying the Ferrari name. Ferrari stands for class & distinction; you can't show them a steak dinner and then give them an Egg-McMuffin.”
Daimler Chief Designer, "You're a lunatic. No one wants that old reworked aerodynamic Ferrari design, they just want the name. We could sell a swayback mule as a thoroughbred racehorse and as long as we still had that two percent of the population that believes anything, we can get our sales.“
Daimler CEO, "And once we've eradicated any semblance of the original Ferrari's designs from the face of the earth, we can drop the Ferrari name altogether.“
Have a nice day.
While I would have preferred the Charger name be worn by a coupe, I'd much rather have the 4-door Charger out there than the same old stuff they've been cranking out for so long that relegated them to a solid "also ran" auto manufacturer. If they can keep up the momentum, that will certainly change (as it already has some).
Not more than a few years ago, it was predicted that the "new" musclecars of this era would be exclusively small sedans powered by turbo-4s (the Subarus and Mitsubishis). Isn't it at least somewhat cool that Chrysler is trying to keep the old flame burning? I mean consider the last car to wear the Charger name. The new Charger might not be perfect, but isn't it a step in the right direction? :confuse:
Plus, the Charger, not even the original, was ever a "dedicated" musclecar in the way that a Roadrunner, GTO, GTX, etc were. Those cars came with big-block V-8's and performance intentions right from the get-go, and even in their most basic form. The Charger was a bit of a hybrid, a combination of personal luxury coupe and sporty car. There were 440 and 426 Hemi options that turned it into a musclecar, to be sure, but there were also slant six and 318-2bbl variants aplenty. You weren't going to get such wussy motors in something like a GTO or Roadrunner! Well, unless it was a Volare Roadrunner or a '74 GTO! :P
Might be that the colors are causing me to sway back and forth on it.
I'll give it this much for sure. It's distinctive and easily identifiable at a glance. And as someone who dreaded the days when the styling of everything left us with what looked like an assortment of different sized Taurus', any step in the direction of unique styling are OK by me!
The Dodge Charger is going to be a huge hit. It's not a 2-door, get over it. The Charger nameplate was dead for years. It's not like the Mustang which has been in steady production since 1964. You MOPAR fanatics should be rooting for the Charger to be a smash hit so DCX can finance bringing a low-production 2-door muscle coupe to the market.
I for one love the look of the Charger. If my father's Magnum holds up well I may trade my Accord for a Charger R/T next year. Give DCX a break already. They're the good guys here! They're the only bright light in the American auto industry right now.
If I ever do get another new car (and that's a big IF, because my Intrepid refuses to die, and even if it did I dunno if I'm ready to go back into another monthly payment), it would probably be a Charger, or maybe a 300C. Leaning a bit more toward that Charger because I've always been a bit more of a Dodge kinda guy, I guess.
LOL! I agree totally!
The Dodge Coronet R/T and Superbee musclecars only lasted a few years. Dodge just didn't have the consistent, long-running names like the others did with the Mustang, Camaro, GTO, Chevy SS models, Olds 4-4-2 (I'm conveniently forgetting the Calais 4-4-2 here :lemon: ) etc.
And while I'm thinking about it, how come there wasn't this much fuss over the 300M when it came out? Last time I checked, none of the original '55-65 Chrysler 300 Letter series were offered with a V-6, FWD, or 4-door configuration! And now they have the nerve to go back in the alphabet to the 300C?! Which, like all Letter Series, only came as a 2-door hardtop or convertible. The BLASPHEMY!! :P
BTW, I remember a lot of whining about the '94 Impala SS when it first came out. No tach, no floorshift, no manual, and, heaven forbid, FOUR DOORS! Seems to me most of that whining stopped once the car was actually released!
As much as I love Mustangs, I'd love it even more if a success of the Charger spurred Chrylser to throw its hat back into the pony car ring. A new small, 2-door Dodge Challenger with available "hemi" engine would be a great complement to the Charger Sedan (and could serve as a much better replacement for the so-so Stratus coupe).
Who knows...maybe one day we'll even see the Trans-Am series look like it did back in the day...Ford vs. Chevy vs. Chrylser!
As was mentioned many times in this thread, there were A LOT worse cars back in the dark days of the 70s and 80s that wore a "Charger" badge....
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
What is "autostick?"
Personally, I've always wondered how it's any different from just shifting an automatic transmission manually. The Autostick has safeguards built in to keep you from over-revving or lugging the engine, but most modern automatics these days do, anyway. Heck, even a 1957 Mopar Torqueflite automatic has safeguards built into it to keep you from hitting too low of a gear at too high of a speed!
I guess one advantage though, is that you might be able to manually select first gear. On the regular Mopar tranny, or at least the one in my Intrepid, it has a spot for Overdrive, Drive, and "Low", which will only hold second gear, but not first.
They will let you downshift though, as long as you're in the speed/rpm range for that gear...that's kinda fun at the limits...
I'd love it if the Charger had a full-on manual, but I also realize that it's a dying market these days...too bad, as a 5 spd would make for one hotrod family car...
Howard:
"Joe, I thought Mikey was supposed to get one of those new Dodge Chargers. That doesn't look anything like that sleek, eye-catching car that he showed me in the magazine. That stubby thing looks like a combination truck and hatchback. What happened?"
Joe:
"Well Howard, it's like this. The magazine showed the '99 Charger concept car. For years it caused a great deal of anticipation among auto enthusiasts because it integrated modern technologies with the aggressive stance and charisma of the original Chargers attractive design cues. Multitudes were waiting for their chance to buy one.
Then, Daimler came along pulled the plug on the real heir to the Charger and substituted the "Family Truckster" over their, for it."
Howard:
"Was Daimler brain dead? There's no comparison, that thing looks hideous. Like Pontiac Aztec meets Chevy S-10 Pickup."
Joe:
"Apparently, Daimler feels they can save money by calling a one-eyed, three-legged swayback mule a thoroughbred racehorse and people will be gullible enough to buy it."
Howard & Joe laugh with disbelief.
Joe:
“I sort of feel sorry for ‘ol Mikey, the same thing happened when he had his house built.”
Howard Chuckling:
“Oh yeah, I remember that. He told the builder that he wanted the luxurious “Colonial” built on his lot, but the builder built that little rancher on it instead.”
Joe cuts in laughing:
“And the builder made Mikey happy by merely renaming the rancher “The Colonial.”
Howard smiling:
“The other day Mikey and I went to breakfast and the waitress brought him a bowl of cereal instead of the steak & eggs that he had asked for. He still ate the cereal without saying a word.”
Joe grinning:
“Well, you know Mikey. He’s one of those new Dodge Charger owners, Mikey will eat anything.”
Both men laugh hysterically while shaking their heads.
Of course, it's still only going to have steel wheels with plastic hubcaps, no sunroof, cloth seats, probably no CD player, and, the horror, you probably won't have a power seat. Oh, the humanity.
Maybe I can start a thread to whine and cry that the 300 doesn't look enough like the Chronos and Atlantic concept cars, too! LOL!
If I had a dime for every production car that didn't look as good as it's concept, I'd probably be rich....
Deiter killed our 99 out of ego. His group didn't want American influence in the new millennium Charger.
For those that say we "Whine" about 4 doors, anyone buying one of those new Mustangs with 4 doors? How about a 4 Door Vette? Makes sense? No? After all, your arguments about 4 doors selling so well and 2 doors are dead, it would make sense to add 2 extra doors to these cars and make them "more practical".
GM and Ford can sell more of them then. Hey Bobby Lutz, you reading these like Robin T. over at Daimler? Fix the Vettes and make them 4 doors, I will buy one then, well that is if Bill Ford doesn't beat you to it with a 4 door Stang, that would be sweat. Ford can start an ad campaign with those hickish guys that say, "That thing got a Hemi?". They can say, "That thing got 4 doors? Sweet!"
Didn't the Atlantic sort of turn into the Pacifica? Different grill and all?
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Adding 4 doors to a Vette, Mustang, etc would be useless because sporty cars either have no back seat at all, or one that's essentially useless, and only there to give the car a better insurance rate (4 seaters are usually cheaper to insure than 2 seaters).
BTW, that '99 Charger concept that is being cried over actually IS a 4-door! It's just a closely-coupled 4-door car that's styled to resemble a coupe. For all intents and purposes, this new Charger is just Dodge's entry in the mainstream family car market. They could just as easily have called it Intrepid, Dynasty, Diplomat, Monaco, or Coronet. But I think Charger sounds better than any of them. Would we rather they called this new one "St. Regis"? It has a longer wheelbase than one.
While we're on the subject of originality, the original Magnum was sort of a hybrid between personal luxury coupe and musclecar, whereas the new one is a 4-door wagon that managed to get classified by the EPA and CAFE as a truck! No resemblance whatsoever to a "real" Magnum! But I don't hear anyone whining about THAT! :P
So if there can be a 4-door Impala SS, a Magnum station wagon, a FWD 300 (M), I don't see why there can't be a 4-door Charger.
Thanx for the heads up on the web-site. Nice way to really feel out the car and its options. Price point still seems very affordable and the inferno red is a great look.
Add to that the pressures of today's marketplace that places many competiting demands on a design team, and it's not hard to understand how we went from coupe-ish concept to 4-door sedan.
In the grand scheme of things, I can't say it really bugs me that much (the lack of a true manual transmission is a lot more annoying, but so it goes). And I can't see any sort of conspiracy here, except maybe to provide a large group of potential buyers what they want in a car... :confuse:
As far as I'm concerned, the Charger never competed against the Mustang or the Corvette, it was more against the GM "mid sizers" like the Chevelle, the GTO, the Olds 442, etc... and the Ford/Mercury of the same size, I forget what they called them - the Torino, (like Starsky and Hutch drove) etc...
That segment is deader than a doornail....
1966:
1968:
1971:
1975:
1985:
Andre - Isn't the '85 the one based on the Omni 024?
:P
In '75, the Charger was just a Cordoba with a checkerboard grille and a hundred bucks or so slashed off the price. Now you could still get them with 400's and 440's, and some of 'em were pretty potent for the time, but most of them were just 318-2bbls or an occasional 360. And for '78 the Charger got outshadowed by the Magnum X/E, a car that looked the part of a musclecar, even if it didn't have the engine to back it up. But then, look at what was out there around '78-79. The best you could probably get was an Aspen R/T or Volare Roadrunner with a 360-4bbl and around 195 hp. Ford wasn't putting anything resembling power in any of the Fairmonts, Granadas, or even T-birds and Cougars of the time. Pontiac did have a Grand Am in '78...I think it put out a whopping 150 hp from a 301-4bbl. Whoopee. There was a 4-4-2 variant of the downsized Cutlass, which got a 160 hp Olds 350-4bbl. Wow. Contain your excitement, please. But sadly, compared to stuff like that, a Magnum with a 400-4bbl and 200+ hp, or a 195 hp Volare Roadrunner, or hell, even a 1979 St. Regis police car was actually something to get excited about! :surprise:
Consumer Reports tested a '68 or '69 Charger with a 440-4bbl. I can't remember if it was the 350 or 375 hp version. It had a 3-speed Torqueflite and a 3.23:1 rear end, which is a good, "middle-of-the-road' ratio. They got 0-60 in 7.0 seconds out of it. I forget what the 1/4 mile time was, but I want to say 14 second range. They also tore up the tires on it during the time they had it! :P Now, 0-60 in 7 seconds doesn't sound like a big deal, but keep in mind this is Consumer Reports getting 7 seconds out of it! They tended to be a bit more conservative back then. I'm sure C&D or MT would've gotten 3.9 seconds out of it, like they did that time with a '65 Catalina 2+2 421!
But basically, they could have gone with more aggressive gearing, like a 3.89:1, 4.11:1, 4.56:1, etc. I dunno if they got shorter than that, but in '56 you could actually get a 6.07:1 in the 300B! That would give you better 0-60, and maybe a better quarter mile, but then you'd probably be topping out at 100 mph! And go the other way, like a 2.76:1 or 2.94:1, and you'd get a higher top speed, but worse 0-60 and quarter mile time.
IIRC, the current Hemi is good for 0-60 in around 6 seconds, and the SRT-8 Hemi is even quicker! Heck, I think even the 3.5 V-6 is good for 0-60 in around 8 seconds, which is a pretty decent time. I think it's just not so "exciting" anymore though, because there are so many cars today, even mundane ones, that can hit 0-60 in 8 seconds.
Talk about "short" gearing - geez, the top speed might not have even been 100mph! Probably did have awesome 0-60 times!
I was thinking, if you combined a really "short" final drive like that with a modern 6 speed auto - and have the top 3 gears be really "tall", you'd maybe have the best of both worlds....great accelleration in the first 2 or 3 gears, and then quiet cruising in the higher gears
In some ways, when overdrive automatic trannies started coming out in the early 80's (Ford was first of the Big Three, in 1980), they did take advantage of the taller highway gearing and put in a shorter differential. For example, a 1979 Mark V or Continental sedan would've had a 400-2bbl with maybe 159-166 hp, a 3-speed automatic, and a ~2.52:1 rear end. For 1980, they came with a 302-2bbl standard, 4-speed automatic, and a 3.08:1 rear. They also lost about 600-800 lb or so of bulk in the process, but no doubt that 3.08 rear helped out immensely with the 0-60 time. C&D or MT tested a 1980 Mark VI, and got 0-60 in 11.0 seconds. I think that one might have had a 351-2bbl, though. Still, for that era, that's NOT a bad acceleration time! IIRC, in that same test they had a Chrysler NYer 5th Avenue that was only good for 0-60 in 14.1 seconds! The NYer was stuck with a tepid 120 hp 318-2bbl, 3-speed Torqueflite, and 2.45:1 gearing.
Answer: The VolksCharger.
Even with the Dakota truck grill, this thing has that Volkswagen Jetta look about it.
I don't know that I'll go WOW when one finally drives past me, but that will be a better look at it when the time comes.
I did hear a few comments about the truck-like front end at the show...
IMO, the Charger would definitely benefit from a longer hood, a slightly shorter roofline, and maybe a slightly longer rear deck. As it is, the LX is a bit disproportionate, with a 120" wheelbase, but an overall length of only 196". The last time cars had a wheelbase of 120" or so, the overall length was more like 220"+. They could easily add a few inches to this car, to balance it better, while still not ending up with a behemoth.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0505/06/C01-173232.htm
Has a nice shot of NASCAR dad, sipping what else? A cup of coffee. The muscle car heritage turns to this? Midlife guy with a cup of coffee and a Mexican made Hemi. I'm going to just wait and see how bad DCX screws up the Challenger.
Besides, speaking of muscle-car heritage, this seems to me to be big step up from the last iteration of the Charger...
1. Yes, this one has a Hemi. In deep black, it would look like a sleeper that could blow the doors off of anything next to it, save a Vette, Porsche, Ferrari, AMG, etc., save for the Hemi badging.
2. This particular car, an R/T, was completely loaded and stickered for $33,570, or about the same as a similarly loaded GTO. Now that the Goat has 400 HP, and somewhat workable hood scoops, the Charger could also use some performance cues as well, other than the Daytona package.
3. There are very subtle styling cues from the 68-71 Charger, but they do not stand out to the extent that they would make the car look retro. Perhaps someone in the aftermarket will come up with a grille that would be more reminiscent of the 68-70 Charger given that there is a prominent open nose space.
4. This Charger has a $1450 NAV package. Was that really necessary? Leave the NAV for the Mercedes and the Chrysler 300C.
5. As far as body style goes, you can't accuse Chrysler of badge engineering the Charger off of the 300C. There is virtually no resemblance on the surface, although plenty of resemblance underneath. There is some resemblance in the tail to the 300M however.
6. This Charger, while exciting, does not push me over the edge into the "Gotta have now" zone. I hope it does well and honors the badge, but it will take more ooomph to get me interested.