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Who do you think you're fooling?
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Buyer took the car to an "Alfa shop" after purchase and after transfering title and registering. They have informed him that the car is "structurally unsound" and "there is nothing holding it together."
I have the name and number of the shop, but it is too late to get a hold of anyone there tonight. I will call tomorrow because I need a better explanation than the buyer could give me. I'm at a loss.
So there ya have it. I think all the info I have at this point. Any thoughts/advice?
Sure, I can easily tell him "too bad." But that won't necessarily let me sleep at night. At the same time, this is a problem for me, of course. I had other interested parties. I ended the auction with over 30 watchers. I'm out time and money. I'd be out even more money if I took the car back. I'd have to pay new registration fees, I'd have to pay taxes again. I haven't even asked if my inspection sticker is still on there. Then you get 2 more transactions on the car's history report. How would that look? Not good, I'd think. All of this could have been avoided had he gotten this inspection BEFORE purchase. UGH!!
And to top off this evening, I just got jury duty notice in the mail!!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If the car was really structurally unsound, wouldn't it have been fairly obvious on a test drive?
That's what my father said when I called him with the news.
I'm trying to read up on what this could be on the Alfa board, but I'm still not completely clear. I see mention a few times of the sills and how the outter rockers can look fine, but the sills and floors could be rotted and that is the main structure of the vehicle. What exactly are the sills? I have no idea.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Found the following:
http://alfaparts.net/105_115sill.htm
Real interesting and confusing. I gotta talk to the shop and see if they can tell me exactly what they are referring to. Maybe its that gusset thing??
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Check this out on an older model Alfa:
Sill Repair
Find someone else to look at it, and get a written report from the shop that is claiming the disaster.
Not saying there isn't a problem, I just know what happened when I took an '02 Blazer xTreme to the dealer for some minor work. They came back with over $3K worth of work it "needed" which was really just various things they wanted to do to put it back to "like new" condition.
Hey, it's a used car. It ain't gonna be perfect.
But if this is just a cash cow being groomed for slaughter, then the best defense is "I sold you a used car".
I can sense a degree of exaggeration already, because as we all know, if a unibody convertible car had so much rust that it was "barely held together", the doors would not either open or close as the case may be. I see this all the time with Porsche targas that are badly rusted. I don't even have to look underneath the car.
Also the seller has to review what he claimed in the auction ad. This is why it's best to say as little as necessary.
And I believe as we all know by now, I never claimed rust-free. I never mentioned anything about rust. Just that the floors were replaced and the body/repaint. We discussed the bit of rust here on the forum. I didn't know what it was then, but now that I've looked at these diagrams, I'm pretty confident that it was simply the half-inch or so of metal that hangs down from the middle and/or inner rocker. Wolf Steel sells this half inch as a separate piece. It is not structural.
Shifty, that link you posted I did read last night, as a matter of fact. I was up for a while researching this stuff. Came across that thread as well as this one:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/car-restoration/24368-105-series-sill-rocker-cha- ssis-components-detail.html
Now, it seems to me, the more I read, the more doubtful I am of this problem. From all I've seen, folks are saying you can't judge the condition of the middle rocker without cutting the car apart. The only reason it ever gets done is when the inner or outter rots and they go to fix that and "hey, there's a middle rocker and its rotted!" And I KNOW the outter and inner rockers are as solid as they come. The inner is what is covered by carpet on the inside of the car and then turns in and wraps around the floor. I replaced those floors. I know what they are attached to is in good shape and very solid. So I don't know what's up here.
I still haven't talked to the shop. I called twice. Left a message this morning at 10am. The person's voicemail is "hey, its mr.X. I'll call you back." HUH? What kind of shop is this??
Of course I can easily walk away. But my conscience is my guide. I have to feel good about it. And, like I said, up to this point, everything I see is indicating to me that the car is fine. I feel so much so that I would gladly buy it back. HOWEVER, since he already transferred the title, I'm SOL. There is no way in hell I could resell it showing that the title changed hands twice in a week.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I used the term 'seller' because I didn't want to add any pain to this PITA situation.
Well thanks for the kid gloves, shifty.
I think I'm feeling OK about it. Just need to get the through the nastiness of it all. Flat out, if he's not happy, he'll have to resell it. At least he's got a leg to stand on. "It wasn't what I was looking for" "my wife doesn't like it" whatever. Its a leg I wouldn't have if I bought it back after 1 week.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
When I sold my 10 y.o. saab, the buyers put me thru Hell, making me go to their mechanic 45 min. away, then after waiting 2 hours in 95 degree heat, he came back with a $2000 bogus list of repairs (on a 40K mile, mint condition, car). Stuff like replacing a rim with a ding in it, & on & on. I gave them $100 off, & they did the deal (think it was just all a set-up?).
Anyone can come up with $1000's of repairs/upgrades possibly needed on a 20 y.o. euro-car (at least!) even if in very good condition. I'd hang tough with this guy; I smell a rat.......
I agree with others. Any shop can come up with a laundry list of stuff to do on a car, let alone a 20 year old Alfa.
The fact that he didn't look under the hood is his probelm and his omission. It's like me not trying on a pair of pants marked "final sale, no returns, refunds, exchang" and then being mad that they don't fit me.
What I always do when I sell any of my old cars privately is make up a short but sweet contract basically saying as is where is basis, no warranties implied or written, and that a mechanic's pre inspecition was recommended by me the seller to the buyer. etc...
But I'm mainly curiuous to know what the buywer wants you to do about this?>
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
But said I can take my time getting back to him, he's not in a rush.
Kinda odd. We haven't talked about what to do yet. He wanted me to talk to the mechanic and get the story first.
"Mechanic" has not returned my call. I'm not doing any chasing here. I've done my part. If he doesn't return my call, Oh well.
I'm in NJ and he's in PA. I searched on lemon law in PA and the only thing it states for a non-dealer selling a used car is that I would be held accountable for expressed warranty. I did state in my auction, "no warranty expressed or implied." But, at the same time (whether this means anything), he didn't buy it through the auction. But that is where he saw the ad and I have emails supporting that. We have no paperwork of the transaction other than the title. NJ used car lemon law only applies to dealers AND cars less than 7 years old AND with less than 100k miles AND without a salvage title.
You bring up a point this has me thinking about, though, boom. If I sell a car ever again, I believe I will have to insist the buyer either pay for an inspection or sign a waiver. Its ridiculous that this is what it comes down to.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
We haven't talked about what to do yet He can do whatever he wants, you don't have to do anything.
For all you know the mechanic could be his buddy, who could be playing along here to see if you can "pay" for some stuff, or cover part of the repairs.
OR
The buyer could be one of those eccentric collectors who might brag that they "never looked under the hood of a car when buying a car", and it came back and finally bit him in the butt, or his mechanic loathes working on Italian cars, or knows nothing about them and told him he made a "mistake" and he should get rid of it because it's "falling apart", or his wife told him to get rid of it once she found out he bought another car, or he's had buyer's remorse and knows he's stuck with it but he's testing the waters to see if you might feel bad about this "situation" and cave in and take the Alfa back.
It seems like he's giving you the runaround because he doesn't know himself what the problem is (if any at all). If he would know then he would have told you, instead of asking you to call the mechanic about it.
If he calls my conversation would go like this:
Him: Did you talk to my mechanic?
You: I tried getting a hold of him but he hasn't called back OR Yeah I did and he thinks the car is falling apart, to which I disagree.
Him: I'm not happy/I want to return it/Help me pay for repairs etc.....
You: I represented the vehicle as fairly as possible. You were aware that it is a 20 year old Italian roadster, and you being a car nut, frankly, I'm surpised that you are calling me about this wanting me to____________(insert what he told you here, pay for repairs, refund, take car back, give some money back).
I know when I shop for cars I always look under the hood, and give them a good drive, and get my mechanics to check them out. Having seeing your collection I assumed that you know your stuff, hence I wasn't really concerned that you didn't do all those things. Maybe your mechanic just scared you a bit as these are eccentric cars, and they're not always perfect, not even when they're new from the factory. I'm not sure why the mechanic said it's falling apart, when it sure wasn't when you bought it and drive it. Otherwise you would not have bought it from me right?
I have owned this car for XX years and I had no problems driving it in as is condition. If you would like to improve on it's current condition, then feel free to do so, however please don't expect me to contribute to that financially. Otherwise it's a very enjoyable car to drive as is. Don't let a mechanic scare you about it.
By the way have you experienced driving it with the open top yet? It's a great feeling isn't it? OR Insert another feel good comment here.
See how it all ended on a good note? Plus you throw the ball back into his court by stroking his ego a bit about his car knoweldge, because even a 16 year old first time car buyer will know that private sales are final, and that should be no excuse for a car collector buying a 20 year old italian car.
Heck even if you would mention it's concourse shape, it's up to him to do an inspection beforehand.
Try the script I wrote. He might not be happy but it's not your problem anymore. Your ads were fairly detailed. Plus the price reflected the condition. :shades:
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I wonder how much he extorted out of the previous owners of his other cars? :surprise:
I always type up a Bill of Sale that says, sold "as is", &: buyer knows: timing chain has to be replaced, or has been informed of repaired body damage, or buyer has bought car w/o inspection, whatever. Of course, if they do get an "inspection", it could be an experience like I had selling my saab; they get a crazy mechanic or "body man" who has their own agenda, & wants to prove their chops by hating your car over tiny or imaginary details.
I dunno, but when you get a "live one" with cash $$, from out of state, & you haven't mis-represented the car, what do you do? Uuuummmmm.......yes! take the cash, & sign over the title is my answer.
Look at the bright side: you did sell the car! You got cash $$. Many buyers are Horse's As**s before the sale, this guy want to be one now (& he doesn't even seem to be very good at it). Just chill, sit around & count his money, buy some good Scotch, go out to dinner, & ever so politely, tell this nut to go wherever, is my advice........
Anyway, he called Fri night. I told him I didn't hear back. He says he'll call. 5 mins later, the mechanic calls. I talk to this "Alfa specialist" for a little while. He has a tough time describing the problem, as well. So I walk through it for him piece by piece.
"OK. So, would you agree the outside of the rocker box [his term] is solid and in good shape?"
Oh yeah. No doubt. Its very pretty, that's for sure. I wish my Spider looked as good on the outside.
"Good. Now, the top of the rocker box, under the doors, would you say that is solid and in good shape?"
Well, yes.
"Fine. And the inside of the rocker box, under the carpet and above the floor. Good shape and solid?"
Yes.
"Ok..... so what is the problem?"
He then tells me there are "like 4 layers inside." Ummmm... no. There is 1. We all saw that diagram I posted. So I then asked him how he looked "inside" the rocker box. His response was he put the car in the air and looked. Huh. Xray vision perhaps?
I thanked him for his time and called the buyer back. I explained how I and the mechanic differ in our assessment. He tries to ask me all kinds of philisophical kind of stuff. "With what this mechanic is saying, would you drive the car?" Yes, of course I would. I drove it for 10 years. Everything visible on the car is solid and in good shape. I wouldn't worry one little bit about its structure. "If you had the car back, would you tell the next buyer about this problem?" If I had to do it again, I would insist any buyer take the car to get inspected PRIOR to purchase.
I dont' think he liked my answers. He was looking for some sort of "hah. i got you." kind of thing. Anyway, he says he will take it to another place. Some Mustang shop who told him they may be able to put in bracers.
I called a lawyer today. Just wanted to cover my bases. He told me that, for one thing, the buyer would have to come sue me here in NJ. But he could sue. And there is nothing definitive. Yes, I sold a 22-year-old used car and if my ad and emails don't give any guarantees, then I should be fine. However, it will take up my time, etc. And, there is always a possibility that a judge will decide against me for the fun of it. He suggests the most practical and least time consuming course of action would be to offer him $200 to sign a waiver and go away.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I used to live in an apartment building in San Francisco with a crazy tenant upstairs from me who used to complain almost weekly to the landlord about my "mixing chemicals" in my apartment and creating noxious fumes that "gave her headaches"; also that I had some kind of "device" that made her walls hum.
Would I have given $200 to shut her up forever? You bet. Anyway, she fell down the stairs one day and NO I wasn't even in town, so she moved out and all was bliss for a while.
"Life is just one damned thing after another".
You've taken notes on the conversation with the "mechanic", that's good. Personally, I'd just start shutting it down; you're never gonna win the argument with this lunatic buyer. If you talk to him again, Just state your case, you don't believe his claims, it's his car now.
You could offer him $200, but you'd probably have to get a lawyer to draft it to make it airtight. And I'd bet then he'd want $1000 from you......just stop calling him back, it's just playing into his psycho-BS-scam.......like others have said here, I'd bet that this is SOP with this nut.......
Let me guess, You were rebuilding a Norton in your apartment's living room. :P
What did he do to this '73 911, and why does he think it is worth $44K?
And I did occasionally shoot at cats out the back window, but other than that....
"starts right up and idles great however runs a little
rough due to inactivity."
Can we say low compression in one or more cylinders? Can we say $12,000 engine rebuild perhaps?
So $7,500 + $12,000 for engine = $19,500 for a $17,000 car at best.
VERY risky without a cylinder leakdown test and a careful examination of head studs, head leaks, etc.
Could be a deal, could be a mess.
FRANKENPORSCHE: He wants $44K because that's probably what he has in it. I think half that would be plenty and he'd be lucky to get that in this market. Basically a sale-proof car at the moment.
maybe it was on purpose(road rage?).
And its sibling
Andre's Poncho got a severe case of malaise
"after a few months the liquid rear suspension tends to sag, but I made a tool to pump it back up which can be done in a few minutes, basically a grease gun filled with Radiator coolant " - gee I want that! ....also "very little rust for a UK car" isn't encouraging...
"Better than Camaro and Mustang" ...I do like that prehistoric computer though, "gages" and all.
Why did people waste time and resources on this stuff?
"BMW made this car"...interesting claim
The Buick Reatta, I had a poster back in 1988 from an auto show with the Reatta, and other GM cars of that era. I wish I kept them. The car is neat but I heard they were not very well assembled, so keeping them alive might cost you a lotta money.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
1982 MG Metro -- seller better buy that car a birthday cake, he's going to be singing to it once a year.
Reatta -- $3,250 bucks eh? So much for "collector car investment".
Morgan Kit Car -- whoever designed that should be tracked down and killed.
Puma -- no mein herr, it vas DKW und VW, not BMW.
Sink 50 grand into it and you might have something
He's an enthusiast anyway
It looks like it's a hard top (no b pillar), which I like too. I don't mind the period color either.
As for the M3 I'm not sure I'd spend that kind of dough, as nice as it may seem. He might have a tough time finding a buyer for that kind of money these days.
I have a feeling that car collectors are looking to capitalize on deals right now, from folks who are offloading they toys for cheap to raise some cash.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
But I'd be perfectly happy with that coppery '72. What kind of fuel economy would something like that reasonably get? I recall that some Buick engineers (or ad men) actually claimed that, in cars where both were offered, the 455 could get better economy than the 350 because it didn't have to work as hard. Any truth to that, I wonder?
In the case of my two Pontiacs, my '67 Catalina with its 400-4bbl gets about the same economy as my '76 LeMans with its 350-4bbl. Even though one's a midsize and one's a full-size, there's actually not much weight difference. My old car book lists the Catalina's base weight at 3910 lb, the LeMans at 3834. I guess that's still not a good comparison though, since one has a smogger engine and one doesn't.
My wife's stepfather passed away yesterday. About a year ago, he bought a '48 or '49 Willys-Overland Jeepster as a project to restore, but he got too sick to do much work.
I hope to have some pictures soon, but from a cursory look at it, the body is in decent shape but with some spots of rust (bumper, taillight, spots on the quarter panels). The top looks new, and the interior new-ish. I heard a story that it may or may not run, and have no idea what may be wrong with it mechanically.
My mother-in-law wants it sold .. anybody here have any ideas what something like this might be worth?