Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • au1994au1994 Member Posts: 3,768
    The 82 Supra is still a good looking car. Man, did I lust after one of these in Jr High.

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  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    My guess is that if you're lucky, it might be worth what you paid for it in 20 years. Not accounting for inflation, of course. And then let's consider insurance, maintenance for 20 years, plus 20 years worth of storage. Even if you own a garage space, you're still tying that spot up for 20 years.

    Let me play devil's advocate ... back in the heyday of muscle cars, there were engine options and limited edition models that were made in very small numbers. At the time, those options didn't cost that much, and, 10-15 years later, really weren't worth much more than the original cost of the vehicle.

    Then, something happened .. baby boomers decided that they wanted to relive their youth and started seeking out the rare and unusual. It is this desire that makes a Hemi 'Cuda worth 6 figures today.

    Don't you think that there will be folks who, in 20 or 30 years, will remember that the G8 GXP was a rompin', stompin', last of its kind muscle car and bid insane amounts of money to have the privilege of owning one?

    V6 G8's won't be worth that much, and even G8 GTs may not be worth much more than the original purchase price ... but GXP's are, and will continue to be, a rare find. How many GXP's with a stick were made and sold in the US? A few hundred?

    I know that, soon, Shifty will chime in and talk about rarity not being equal to desirability ... after all, how many Shelby Omni GLH's were made? And what are they trading for now?

    So, to sum up, there has to be a market of folks wanting something in order to drive the price up, no matter what the object is - art, classic cars, jewelry, whatever.

    But, the more I think about it, the more I think that, someday, those GXP's (and Corvette ZR-1's) might be worth more than they were originally purchased for.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    edited March 2010
    I'm not much into mucle cars but I just don't see the G8 GXP being some crazy collectible in the future.

    Although the car is quick, and relatively well priced performance sedan, it wasn't a modern muscle car "game changer" I don't think. Style wise it isn't anything special either.

    Like Andre said, maybe in 20 years you'll be lucky if you get what you paid for it.

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think anything with a lot of HP will retain a certain degree of value, but as far as modern cars go, the old rule of "loved when new, loved when old" and the converse "not loved (or indifferent) when new, thus unloved or indifferent when old"....this is a pretty good rule.

    Nobody cares about a GXP. No one wrote songs about it, put it all over t-shirts and posters--so in the future it's value will be tied to its utility, not to its mythology. It HAS no mythology, and mythology translates into big bucks.

    The ZR-1 has a certain smattering of mythology so it might fare better.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    Funny you mention the ZR-1, it's the subject of today's NPOCP, all for $11,500. Still wating for that increase after almost 20 years. There are plenty of MBs and BMWs and Infinitis with the GXP's performance, so it's not 'the last of kind', I wouldn't think...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The price is fair enough if it's a straight car. More than fair. Still, as they say, it's a C4 with the usual crummy interior that GM is noted for. The C4 is overshadowed by the far superior C5 and will always be so. If the C4 was the first EVER Corvette, maybe it would have been collectible like the earliest C1s of 1953-55. But it's just another in a long line of Corvette disappointments going way back to 1973.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    Most young people today couldn't care less about the GXP, no matter its merits. It's virtually unknown, it pretty much was never marketed, its brand is now an orphan, and it's Australian - following other surefire collectibles like the Mercury Capri and 2003 GTO. Money would be better off kept in a box under a bed rather than tied up in a car like that. Also, I think financial pressures in the next 30 years are going to be much different than what was seen 30 years ago compared to now, which will not help the market for toy cars. The best hope for recouping that investment will be drunken idiots at a B-J etc auction.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    Yeah the base model had a lot less exterior frills, and basic wheels too. That GT coupe is almost like a 4cyl Supra in the looks department.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    Then, something happened .. baby boomers decided that they wanted to relive their youth and started seeking out the rare and unusual. It is this desire that makes a Hemi 'Cuda worth 6 figures today.

    The problem though, is that there were a lot of people who aspired to those musclecars back when they were new, and now they're trying to relive their youth. But I don't think too many people are lusting after a G8 GXP right now. And 20-30 years from now, people aren't going to look back fondly on the Great Recession of 2008-2009, so there aren't going to be a whole lot of people clamoring to relive anything from this era. And Pontiac has been considered sort of a loser brand for years now, so a G8 GXP might be held in the same regard as an Edsel with the biggest optional engine, or a '60-61 DeSoto with the elusive 383 cross-ram.

    Another problem is that the GXP is a 4-door sedan. Traditionally, the high-dollar musclecars are hardtop coupe or convertible. So IMO at least, the GXP is going to be something akin to a well-preserved 1969 CHP Dodge Polara with the 375 hp 440, which was one of the most brutal domestic police cars of all time.

    But hey, you never know. Put one away for 20-30 years, and it *might* bring a good-sized fortune. Anything's possible.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Yeah I agree with you. Not on the radar of most young folks.

    In fact the G8 I think was made for baby boomers who wanted old school performance in a new and reliable package. So who's gonna lust after it in 20 years?

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  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I see the G8 in 20 years being as collectible as a "muscle" car from AMC is today.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    A local dealer has a spotless 30K mile 04 GTO for 15K. I suspect the GXP will be similar...it will always be worth a little more than an ordinary car from the same year, but if a person hides one away as a retirement fund, they will be disappointed in 30 years.

    It's a cool car, but it's not some timeless wonder...so people should just drive them...enjoy it while we can.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    re that Celica GT, I think the sticker even mentions something about 'Supra Interior Trim', as standard equipment, at least on this example, which is the 'Anniversary Edition', in addition to being the GT; I don't think your average GT had all that luxo stuff, at least not standard, in 1981. A girl I went to high school and college had an '81 Celica coupe (though I don't know if it was an ST or a GT, and it was a stick) and it wasn't loaded up like that thing. I do remember us getting a flat tire on the way back from NIU on I-88 and me changing it out, though!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    edited March 2010
    Ah yeah I didn't read that on the sticker. Not that it would matter, but I wonder how many of those "anniversary" cars were sold.

    When I was in high school I knew a guy who acquired an 80-81 Supra...this was around maybe 1993, so it was already aging, and I knew it was an unusual car. I remember it was white, and I want to say it had burgundy leather. It was loaded, and I thought it was a relatively cool car, with the I6 and all. It was pristine when he got it, but it slowly went downhill over time. Too bad. Most of the normal Celicas from that time were already pretty trashed by the early 90s. I knew another kid who had an 82 Celica liftback, and even in this mild climate, the rear hatch was already rusting out, in the manner so common for those cars.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    yeah, those old Celicas and Supras (well, most Japanese cars), while mechanically hearty, tended to rust around themselves after 5+ years, and their interior materials didn't hold up particularly well, either, so relative to how many were sold (and Celicas were quite popular at the time), not all that many have survived.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ....then I'll shut up about it, I guess the $9500 was a little spendy in '81, though clearly not outrageous (my boss had an '81 Fleetwood Brougham=~$24k then), though a better comparison would be mom's 1980 Fiat Bravasedan, 5-speed (the biggest $8000+ mistake ever :lemon: ) and dad's '81 VW Scirocco 'S' (stick, no sunroof, power windows/locks weren't even offered, but fancy seats and wheels, A/C and nice stereo), which was ~$10k in '81, IIRC.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    The climate is pretty mild where I live...over the years the dampness can eventually take a toll, but even today there's a lot of 80s Japanese metal still on the road here, especially things like early Camrys, 82-85 Accords, etc. I think the Celica-Supra family was a worse than average ruster, even here the pre-1986 cars are becoming pretty rare. Finally, I suppose, as a 25+ year old car doesn't really owe anyone anything.
  • larryd323larryd323 Member Posts: 1
    Hey probably so. I used to have one that look just like it. Loved the car, ahead of it's time
    LD
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    I don't care how fast this is
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,064
    sort of ratty looking. And I would be afraid to use 1/3 of the HP on that thing!

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  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    sad thing is, if it's numbers matching, he'll probably get that money; it looks like it needs a fairly minor restoration, really (but, dammit, I hate aftermarket shifters, not that a column shift is appropriate in this thing, but many of them came from the factory equpped as such, so.....
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ....the kid across the street from me inherited his grandfather's '71 (Malibu 2-door hardtop, AM Radio, 307, probaly a powerglide, but maybe a 350TH by then, not sure) but even THAT thing felt quick at the time (of course, this was 1987-ish; I was driving a Caprice with a 305, which I'm sure had more than a little to do with that seat-of-the-pants feeling).
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    No way it's numbers matching... it's clearly not even an SS (flat hood, dash, etc). 20 large gets you a much nicer clone with maybe less HP. He's dreaming. I wonder if he droped in the bog block and left the original front springs in. It must drive like a mess.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited March 2010
    He'd be lucky to get $10K for that cobbled up rat. It's not an SS btw. Real value? About $6500 in my opinion, given what you'd have to do to it to make it a really *really* nice $20,000 clone.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    Right. If the crate engine = $6,000 + the rest of the car = $500, there you go.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    edited March 2010
    I agree, and sort of disagree: for some reason, even the rattiest '68-72 Chevelle two-door hardtops (even sans drivetrain, though those with even non-impressive build sheets and/or window stickers intact and included do better) get silly money, never mind that they've never approached being 'rare' (probably one to two million of these were sold during those five model years, if I had a guess), except for 'real' SS models with certain engine/trans combos. Combine that with Chevrolet's infamously awful, and/or non-existent, record-keeping as to how many of this-that-and-the-other-with-what-engine/trans combo and options were built, as compared to almost any other domestic brand, and you have cars rife for fake-and-bake. The example pictured, at least, has some nice 'patina', probably orignal paint, it's not a rust-bucket and at least a reasonably decent, original interior (save for the stupid floor shifter). Yeah, I guess if I'd looked at least the emblems, I'd realized none from the factory blatanty splatted 'SS', '454' and 'LS7' all on the front fender, ever. I guess the seller is trying to push the 'look what you can do with a restorable fake' thing? I dunno. :confuse:
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    Take a closer look at the body. There is horrid bodywork on the lower fenders and doors and the aluminum trim on the lower quarters has been tacked on to hide rust.

    You are right however that Chevelles go for money. Here are some current listings all on Long Island:

    1968 6 cyl

    1971 SS with a 400 I can't think that was the original motor but this looks good for the price

    $4,500 more than that load

    $4,000 less than that load

    SS clone with the hood but no emblems In the pics, it looks beige which isn't a good choice

    This makes me miss my 70 small block that I sold in 1990
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,064
    the SS with a 400 is not original motor, but the add says it comes with the right one (I assume correct, an L-88?), and documentation, so probably real.

    I actually like that '67. Just needs a 4 speed.

    And the 6 cyl. '68 looks nice. If cheap enough, drop in a crate small block and a 4 speed, some suspension and brake modernization, and end up having more invested than if you bought a real V8 car (maybe even one of the SS's)! Although probably still a fun to own piece, and maybe not that bad if you can DIY the work.

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  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Me too, liking the '67 Chevelle, that is. I like that more squared of body style than swooping style that followed. Probably goes back to my high school days, when the seniors (some of 'em, at least) were driving 66's and 67's.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited March 2010
    I think the comps pretty much prove that pile of junk isn't worth more than $6500.

    Also we must keep in mind that there is a pecking order on Chevelles, and 1969 is the preferred year.

    I don't think junky chevelles bring any strong money these days. Project cars are treated like plague-ridden oxcarts in today's economy.

    My impression is that collectors are sick of Chevelles. There are rows and rows of them at every car show. Unless you have something special in engine and/or options, and unless your car is heavily documented, all you have is a amateur-built clone/hobby car with racing stripes and parts from Kragen bolted on. If you equate a "dime" with $10K dollars, then "a dime a dozen" is about right.

    Nice project for a 16 year old maybe.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    I think that you're dead on, except that 1970 seems to be the high water mark. It's one year only styling and there is a halo effect from the LS6. 68s and 9s never did much for me.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    edited March 2010
    I'd like to have those tires

    Sitting low, priced high

    Four holer

    Breezy

    Another one showed up

    Funny nice ones of these are now somewhat "survivors"

    Haul tall things

    Odd drop top

    And its slightly older sibling

    Not many left like this...I almost want to like it
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    I think the '70s command the highest prices, but I think mostly because of the newly-available (and often faked) 454 (particularly the LS-5, if my terminology is correct), but '69s run a close second. And, yeah, the '68-69s to me aren't as nice-looking, maybe because of the funky slant of the coupe's rear window.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    edited March 2010
    Funny what pops up when you put in a $65k minimum price:
    '37 Rod

    BigBuckBoss

    Repeat?

    High '57

    BrandNew'65

    GeeOurOld...

    BRG Jag

    Mild Rod

    SuperDollarSD

    '24Lincoln??

    MBconvert
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    edited March 2010
    65K for a questionably customized 57 Chevy with a non-original engine. Sign me up :P

    I want to believe there's an extra digit somewhere in the price of that Lincoln, but I suspect there isn't.

    I like the Jag but I have no idea what something like that is actually worth. The LaSalle is nice too, but I have to believe it is fairly steep.

    I'd take the 280SE low grille cabrio from that list...can't go wrong with a nice one of those, other than the high cost of entry. Those have had very high values almost since new.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah the 454 is king of the hill price-wise. I guess I just see more 6'9s around---maybe because they are more reasonably priced. If you stay away from big blocks and real SS cars, prices for Chevelles are very reasonable. This includes clones, which are just pretenders and so can't command the price of "real cars". First type of car to plunge in value in economic strife is the clone.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    my '83 Scirocco 'S' with same equipment listed for 9k.
    "dad's" '81 makes me feel old! ;)
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  • martianmartian Member Posts: 220
    I mean, millionaires don't care-but who will want these things if a fill-up pushes $160.00?
    I can see the values taking a plunge.
    Of course, maybe the cars will just wind up spending more time in the garage, tha's all.
    How are the '69 Camaro prices holding up?
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,357
    I think a bigger question would be "what happens to our national economy if gas goes to $8.00 gal". As for the cars, people spend money on their hobby. If you want to take your car out on a Sunday afternoon its gonna cost you. IMO no different than dropping $200 buck on seeing a ball game. Its whatever makes you happy. Now, if you were planning on driving it everyday at 10MPG, well thats a different story.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    edited March 2010
    If you want to take your car out on a Sunday afternoon its gonna cost you. IMO no different than dropping $200 buck on seeing a ball game. Its whatever makes you happy.

    This might not count for much, but I remember back in 2008, when gas was hitting $4.00 per gallon, it didn't seem to hurt attendance at the car shows I go to in Carlisle too much overall. The GM show seemed like it shrunk a bit, but the Ford and Mopar shows seemed as packed as ever.

    I'm in a Mopar club, and we always have a big cookout on the Saturday of the show. I think attendance to that was down a bit, but we have a lot of members from all across the country and even around the world, so some people travel quite far to hit the show and cookout. I do remember one guy who had, IIRC, a 1969 SuperBee that he would trailer up from Florida, dropped out that year because it was just going to be too expensive.

    In addition to the gas though, there was that feeling of impending doom in the air that summer, and I think a lot of people knew they were going to lose their jobs. That probably caused some people to cut back on travel and such and start saving for the dark times that were to come.

    I remember driving up that summer in my '79 5th Ave, and I think that was the most money I ever paid for gasoline. Ironically, on the trip up, the thing managed the best fuel economy it ever got...something like 22 mpg! Too bad all my trips couldn't be straight highway runs like that!

    But yeah, I think $8.00 per gallon would do enough damage to the economy that classic cars and car shows would be the least of our worries!
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    now wondering if dad's '81 price-he-quoted (y'know how that goes) included financing, etc. Kinda shocked either way cuz dad's a notorious cheapskate (he knows it, too, so wouldn't be offended by my smack-talking). BTW, my dad was a youngun' when he had twin boys (a week before his 20th birthday), so we're both about to hit the big 41 and 61. I'm lucky to have young parents (and still one set of grandparents!).
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    edited March 2010
    that 4.5 is silly-priced (especially if the suspension is gassed-out, which it is, clearly); that's about a $6000-7000 car, I'd guess (maybe $9 IF the suspension--and all other mechanicals--were A-OK; plus that color combo is not fugly)? I dunno, but definitely not $15k.

    That '66 Electra at $3300 is a bargain, not just cuz I like big ol' four doors, but it looks to be in really decent, original condition. Loaded, great original interior, not perfect, but love it.

    Funny we were ramblin' on incessantly about that silly eBay '81 Celica, and it's identical (though in worse shape, but with as many documents and even more loaded) twin shows up, for a grand. HA!!

    Other bargains: that cool Stude wagon ($5k, and you won't probably find another) and I think at $6k that Rambler convertible is kinda neat. Not a helluva lot of interest in either (in 'general') but both interesting and cheap.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    If you want to take your car out on a Sunday afternoon its gonna cost you. IMO no different than dropping $200 buck on seeing a ball game. Its whatever makes you happy

    Right. No different than filling your boat up for $100-$200. 10 mpg in a big block muscle car looks positively practical compared to most boats, gas-wise.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    Yeah, I would be much more worried about economic collapse due to $8/gal gas than the musclecar market. Most of those things probably see well under 1000 miles a year anyway. The fuel expense can be justified as recreation.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    I'd say the 4.5 is closer to a $7500 car with everything working. The V8 sedans are pigs and don't seem to carry much real world demand premium over the 6cyl cars. The car looks nice and the colors are period...but one could get a similar condition 6.3 for almost the same money, if they want the full money pit effect.

    I think the Stude could be worth it too...how many of those does one see? Cheap way for a cool entry into the hobby. There are a lot of interesting choices in the lower end of the vintage car spectrum.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Most muscle cars are also a real chore to drive in traffic anyway, so if they go out, they usually go on a club tour on the highway. Even at $5 a gallon, a 200 mile tour is not all that expensive as fun for a family day.

    The people that $5 bucks a gallon really hurts are daily commuters in their V8 SUVs and Pickups.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    Gas prices won't have much of an effect on cars driven 1 to 2 thousand miles a year
  • au1994au1994 Member Posts: 3,768
    edited March 2010
    Gas at $8/gallon impacts more than the classic car hobby. At that price it impacts consumer spending, a key component of the economy. Yes, people still buy gas at that price, they simply have to, but they cut back on useage, cut back on other items like vacations, eating out and generally watch what they spend to make up for the increase in fuel costs. This causes a chain reaction:

    restaurant sales go down, restaurant lays off, or closes. City loses a tax payer, people lose their job now not only are they spending less, they are not spending at all. We saw the same thing when gas was a $4.

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well you certainly won't see people paying $10,000 for ratty Chevelles to restore, that's for sure.

    The old car hobby is strictly based on discretionary income. Classic cars are, generally, lousy "investments' compared to other investments. They are sometimes good "investments" compared to say collecting cassette tapes or broken lawn tools from K-Mart. :P
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    If that '65 Mustang only has 1200 miles on it, why did it need a ground-up restoration? Was it parked out in a pasture for a decade or so, or what? I always get my cynic going when I see ads like that where huge money is on the line for an ultra low mileage vehicle that has had a total restoration. What, it just sat there and wore it's little self out while not moving??? And they go on and on about how exact the restoration is, while I am looking at Discount tire radials? Not even the correct size for the car?

    :confuse:
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