Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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Comments

  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ......especially as I highly doubt S2000s are Honda-cheap to fix, compared to the Boxter, for the most part. I'm always kind of pleasantly surprised at how inexpensive Z3s are (well, the older ones at least), but then the 'practical' side of me emerges and thinks a 3-series would probably be about 90% as fun, and at least a little less costly to insure.

    On that note, how do rates compare between, say, Miatas versus Boxters versus S2000s, etc.?
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I actually never even think about insurance. It seems to be $400-$500 a year regardless of whether I am driving a sports car, SUV, luxury sedan, etc. I guess once you are a married middle aged man with a faily clean record, they don't care so much.

    I think the Z3 is a little more fun to drive because it weighs less, has a tighter structure (because of the smaller open area) and has a tighter suspension. All of the BMW convertibles of that era have plastic windowed tops which pretty much just suck.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    $400 to $500 a year???????????? Where do you live?????? With a clean record, I pay over a grand for an 03 Altima 2.5
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,361
    How about $1700 a year with no points or accidents (09 Genesis and an S10 with just liability). Welcome to NJ!

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    edited April 2010
    .....the partner and I pay about $1000-1200 a year for both cars (he's 33 and has an '01 Wrangler, I'm 40 and have the old, old BMW, both liability-only, we're both 'single'). And we live in a fairly high-risk zip code (but have a garage, though w/liability, I think it makes no difference).
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    My wife and I pay about $1100 a year for a Lexus GS400, Porsche 944 and Honda Pilot all with full coverage here in sunny Birmingham, Alabama.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,361
    Wow! Rates like that would never happen in NJ.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    02 E55 AMG, no points or accidents, pretty full coverage with $1000 deductible for collision - about $1200/yr. The fintail is on a Hagerty policy which only runs about $100/yr.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,070
    I am moving. although maybe $2,700/yr for 3 cars (2 full coverage, 1 libility only) with an 18 YO on the policy (although discounted for being away at college) isn't so bad!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Yeah, but you guys pay garbage men what we pay corporate lawyers around here.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I pay about $2,200 in Philadelphia for a 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance, 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, and a 1989 Cadillac Brougham. Full coverage. No accidents, no points.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,806
    I know I just posted this recently somewhere around here, but, here in NJ, I pay roughly $650/year for each of our daily drivers, $450/yr for my '91 Benz, and about $130/yr for each of my "classic" cars.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I pay about $2,200 in Philadelphia for a 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance, 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, and a 1989 Cadillac Brougham. Full coverage. No accidents, no points.

    Is your wife on a separate policy? I didn't see the LaCrosse mentioned.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,361
    I pay about $2,200 in Philadelphia

    That's not too bad for Philly and three cars. I am surprised you keep full coverage on your 89 Caddy.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Liability seems to make up the bulk of my premiums. I looked at dropping some coverage, but the amount I pay for full coverage on my '86 Porsche is negligible.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    Liability seems to make up the bulk of my premiums. I looked at dropping some coverage, but the amount I pay for full coverage on my '86 Porsche is negligible.

    I've noticed that, too. I had thought about dropping the collision/comprehensive on my 2000 Intrepid, but I think that was only around $200 per year. And it's a good thing I didn't, as the car got totaled in a hit-and-run in the parking lot! Although that might have been covered, regardless, under the uninsured motorist clause.

    My last payment in March was something like $1,395 for the year for four cars...2000 Park Ave with full coverage and an '85 Silverado and two '79 New Yorkers with liability-only. I forget now how much the antique policy was for the DeSoto/Catalina/LeMans, but I want to say around $225 per year.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2010
    Nope, if it's a hit and run you are NOT covered under Uninsured Motorist...unless the police apprehend and identify the culprit. Otherwise, if the culprit remains anonymous, you are SOL :cry:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2010
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,361
    Liability seems to make up the bulk of my premiums.

    I just looked mine up for the heck of it and on the car I carry collision on the liabiltity portion makes up about 57% of the total premium. I guess because my car is fairly new (09).

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Yeah, we discovered that when a guy hit and ran my daughter's Camry. No collision insurance no fix. We lived with it and then a couple of years later (a few weeks ago) she drowned it. THAT was covered under comprehensive.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, basically when you come out and see a huge dent in your door, you just confess to the crime yourself and you're fine :P
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    same age with wife and 2 young drivers, in CT they care a lot!
    i have high coverage levels and collision on each car, but none of them are in any kind of luxury category. had a bumper scraper about 3 years ago.
    so, 4 full time cars(2 commute, 2 pleasure) and 1 garage queen($100/year).
    bill is a tick over $450 a month. put the garage queen on the road, probably next month, $500 every month.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    My costs are just about the same as yours, explorer. I expected they would be.

    The thing I've learned from my daughter's experience is if she gets in an accident to immediately push the car into the nearest body of water!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    I'd really like to hear more about that story!
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Ah! I've told it elsewhere so why not here?

    Three weeks ago we had a heck of a nor'easter. Now we are five miles off the ocean and the kids on the barrier island next to us (where I lived for several years until my wife got scared off by a hurricane) go to the same high school with our town.

    My daughter, 21, decides that Saturday to go visit her friend who lives over there. She gets there fine. On the trip back a few hours later she somehow loses the concept of tides, despite the fact that she has never lived more than 5 miles from the ocean. She takes off at almost exactly high tide. Comes to this large body of water that she doesn't notice looking bigger than it did before. She's thinking big puddle. Keen in mind that such "puddles" have not nearly as much to do with rain coming down than ocean and bay coming up. She drives ahead.

    People ask, "She drove through a flood?" I reply, "No, she drove into a flood. Had she come out the other side we might not be having this conversation."

    I get a call. It is her who is now in the water which is now coming into the cabin of the car. I advise her that calling the Surf City police would likely be an excellent idea.

    Oy.

    I never saw the car again. I called the insurance company who virtually totaled it without looking at it. I'd have been better off if they did entirely that because when the adjuster found the damage from the previous accident he lowered the value of the car. That said I'm happy with the settlement.

    She previously had fried the engine on this (largely not her fault though it would not have happened if I'd been driving her car). I still haven't paid that off - though the insurance will more than cover the rest of that.

    This could go on....

    Anyway, she has now inherited my wife's 00 Accord and had to learn a stick in the process and we got my wife a CPO 07 Camry XLE (the one with a four and no leather). Other than car payments things are back to normal....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    quite a story and glad your daughter is ok.
    water can be very strange in that you can't tell how deep it is.
    you might be looking at a new clutch in the near future. ;)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yes. She's on a separate policy with a different company.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    We (wife and myself) pay ~$2000/year for 5 vehicles:
    '87 BMW 325
    '92 Sentra SE-R
    '05 Dakota PU truck
    '07 Dodge Grand Caravan
    '09 Infiniti G37S

    The last 3 all have collision coverage; the BMW and Sentra do not. The Infiniti is ~33% of the total.

    This is in the suburbs around Baltinore City.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    liabiltity portion makes up about 57% of the total premium. I guess because my car is fairly new (09)

    Newness should not affect the liability premium. A higher performance/sportier vehicle might, as might any tickets. Newness should mainly affect the collision coverage - what it costs to get you car repaired.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,806
    Ya know, you can insure that bimmer with Hagerty and have full coverage for less than $200/yr. The Sentra could then be added in 2012.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    edited April 2010
    I need to do that with my 944. I probably drive it less than 1000 miles a year.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    I've been thinking about migrating one of my '79 New Yorkers over to Hagerty, if they'll accept it. I think their minimum agreed-upon value is something like $3500? I remember I had my '68 Dart insured with them for $4K, and currently have my '76 LeMans on there for $4K. My mechanic told me I should double that, to $8K, which caused me to half-joke that if I could get that much out of them, I'd total it myself!

    Moving one of my NY'ers over to Hagerty would save me about $300 on the regular policy, and bump up the Hagerty policy by $24, if I insured it for $4K.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,922
    I looked at that for my '69s, but apparently they do not insure in Alaska. :confuse:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I doubt they'd insure it for $8K. If you ask for insurance that is well over book, they are definitely going to ask you to have an appraisal done, the cost of which might negate the savings and which probably won't come out to $8K anyway.

    Your half-joke is actually their main concern :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    edited April 2010
    Is there a good reference online for antique car values? I just went to the NADA site, and priced a 1979 New Yorker and a 1976 Grand LeMans.

    The New Yorker came out around $1000 on the low end, $3500 at the high end, and around $2300 for an average. The LeMans came out $3000 on the low end, $6500 on the high end, and $4750 for an average.

    One thing that surprised me, with the LeMans, is that the 350 engine boosts the value by 15% above base, but a 400 or 455 only boosts it by 20%. Oddly even the Olds 260 V-8 boosts its value by 10%...personally I think an engine that small in a car that big should drop the value!

    I guess it's conceivable that they'd insure my NYer for $3500. Only one way to find out I guess...try it! I want to at least wait until I get the nice aluminum rims and proper whitewall tires on it so that it shows up a little more respectably in photos!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    NADA is generally way too high on "high retail" but if you look at their "average" retail as about the going rate, you're fine. If they only offer Low and High, just split 'em.

    No one price guide is good for all types of cars. They all have their "right on" numbers and their "gaffes".

    What I often do, for starters, is average out perhaps 6 price guides, then compare to an averaged out set of comparables say from Hemmings or some of the better internet sites. Then I use a software program to select past eBay auctions and graph their average bid prices (as you might imagine, lower than asking prices you see).

    This can be time consuming but it's wayyyy better than just picking out numbers from one book.

    But with the more mass produced 70s and 80s collectibles, it's not really necessary to do all that, since their prices hardly ever go up or down.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    edited April 2010
    Well, I just spotted a potential flaw in that NADA book. I priced a base '76 LeMans, with a 350 and a/c, and got a range of $4100-$9000, with an average of around $6900.

    I can't believe a base LeMans would be worth more than a comparable Grand LeMans, let alone a spread of $1000-$2500!

    Just for kicks, I also checked a 1979 Newport with a/c, and they came up with a range of $1800-4100, with an average of $3383.

    I know 70's cars aren't worth much for the most part, but is there any reason the cheaper versions (Newport versus NYer, LeMans versus Grand LeMans) would actually show a higher value?

    And speaking of '76 LeManses... OUCH!!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,361
    Newness should not affect the liability premium

    Yeah, my point of the post was that another poster mentioned that liability was the majority of the premium. Mine is nearly a 50/50 split and I was thinking because my car is newer that the collision cost was higher.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think such difference are irrelevant to value in cars of that type. By that time, the factory trivialized the different trim levels. Some price guides merely use formulas, and they add some % to higher trim levels without taking reality into account (often the higher trim levels ARE worth less, because they are ugly or garish or too heavy for drag racing, etc.).

    As for that '76, listen to used car dealers' favorite mantra---there is an [non-permissible content removed] for every seat.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    I want to know how he figured out there were only 800 left???
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    I want to know how he figured out there were only 800 left???

    I was wondering that, too. FWIW, they made about 96,000 LeManses in 1976, and 15,582 of them were Sport Coupes, like that eBay car. For comparison, they made 14,757 Grand LeMans coupes.

    When he says there are 800 left, I wonder if he means 800 1976 LeManses, or 800 Sport Coupes? What would be a typical survival rate for a 1976 car, I wonder? 800 out of 15,582 comes out to about 5%. 800 out of 96,000 comes out to about 0.8%.

    But regardless, I'd love to know where that statistic came from.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    87.3% of all statistics are just made up. :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The statistic came from his....er......hat. No one keeps track of cars like that, because they only way to do so would be a) if they were incredibly low production so that you could actually FIND all the existing ones and/or b) there was a national registry, like for instance with Shelby GT 350Rs -- everybody knows how many are left.

    A safe estimate would be, after 35 years---maybe 10%, so around 1500 cars---but again, how many people care how many are left? It's not like the collector car hobby is feeling the effects of a 1976 Le Mans shortage.

    If everybody cared in the first place, the survival rate would be the same as for a GT 350R or a Tucker or some of the Hemi Cudas----incredibly high rate of survival.

    So really, the scarcity of '76 Le Mans coupes is probably for the wrong reasons.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    So really, the scarcity of '76 Le Mans coupes is probably for the wrong reasons.

    Well yeah, main reason is that it just wasn't a popular car when new. Incidentally, 1976 was the Grand Prix's best sales year in history. The GP looked like a whole lot more car than a '76 LeMans, but didn't cost all that much more, so buyers flocked to it in droves. And yeah, a '76 Grand Prix isn't exactly high on most classic car buyers' lists either, I can see the attraction...although I just happen to prefer the LeMans, personally.

    Interestingly, just about every time I go on to ebay, and check out '76 Pontiacs, there's almost always a Grand Prix or two, or even 3-4 at any given time. And naturally, a ton of Firebirds and Trans Ams. But a LeMans only pops up every once in awhile. And a full-sized Catalina or Bonneville is fairly rare. Oddly though, it seems Venturas pop up fairly often, considering they weren't really strong sellers, when new, either. Understandably it's the coupes that seem to have survived.

    I'd imagine '77 LeManses have had an even lower survival rate. For one thing, they built fewer of them...only around 80,000 miles. But the real achilles heel was engine changes. On the lower end, the Chevy 250-6 was replaced with the less-durable Buick 231, although I'm sure few of these cars were equipped with 6-cyl engines anyway. The real killer though, was the Pontiac 301, which made its debut that year, and I believe was the most common engine used in these cars. In 1976 at least, most of them had the durable, if thirstier, Pontiac 350, either in 2- or 4-bbl form. And yeah, a '77 LeMans isn't exactly a desireable car either, but I have a thing for 'em. Wouldn't mind having a brown 4-door with Texas county-mounty stickers and lights on it. :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A perfectly nice old car.

    However, if you had the only one in existence, I don't honestly think you'd get much more for it. So if there are 1500 of THAT TRIM LINE, that's a glut.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    .....and I'm guessing of the (allegedly) 800 left, his is the only one with three shades of gray primer outside (including on the grille--why do people DO this?), two shades of tan, one of black and one of green Mod-Squad in the interior (again, WHY, Christina?). Also, the next time I see someone spell the word 'console' (as used in buckets-and-console) as 'counsel' or 'council', I'm going to scream.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    You don't like the center counsel in my Camero? ;)
  • au1994au1994 Member Posts: 3,771
    how are the breaks on your Camero?

    2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
    2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
    2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha

  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    If, as Andre said, Hagerty has a minimum value of $3500 before they will insure you, then neither the BMW nor the Sentra would make the cut. To be honest, the two of 'em together would have a hard time making the cut :P .
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    edited April 2010
    They worked when parked, no warrenty. Oh, and I just fixed the tacometer :shades:
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