Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

lemmer

So, I am not really clear on what people are trying to say. Is the 240D a fast car?

michaellno

Is the 240D a fast car?

Compared to the 220D, sure. Or a bicycle. Or a skateboard.

Anything else automotive, probably not. Even andre's friends' '80 Accord hatch with A/C and automatic was probably faster, 0-60, than the 240D.

texases

But probably not compared to an old man with a walker...

toomanyfumes

Ha, great movie.

gsemike

I saw this at the train station. It's fairly unusual to see cars like this driving around in these parts figuring that is a bonafide collectible in need of total resto. I've never seen in at the station before. What do you make of this? What's it worth as is and what could it be worth?

gsemike

I apologize for the image size. This is a 71 Challenger RT I saw at the station. It's fairly unusual to see cars like this on the road around here, figuring it's in need of total resto but is a bonafide collectible. Checking it out, I see no signs of any restoration underway but the plates and stickers are current. What do we think? What's it worth as it sits and what could it be worth?

qbrozen

Pretty.

Anyone know if a '99 would offer significantly more rear seat room than our '87?

ghulet

...I just did a comparo on Autotrader between the two (I used '91 for your '87); naturally, it didn't list the legroom of the '91, but the '99 is listed as 28.1 for 'second seat' (I assume this means rear seat), so if I had to guess the answer to the question, it'd be 'no'. But you knew that already. :P

lemmer

There is pretty much no leg room in either in my experience.

Mr_Shiftright

The 3-Series of either of those generations are torture chambers for anyone over 5' 9", IMO.

One reason I have NEVER owned a 3 series is because of how cramped the car is.

Oh, I did own on old 320i once, but that's a whole different generation of car.

andre1969

Is it just me, or do the seats in that car look a bit ratty for only having 79,000 miles? Even the back seats don't look so hot, especially with that cracking on the raised center spot.

texases

It's amazing how 3s and 5s keep getting bigger on the outside, not on the inside. A friend bought a '79 528i, I fit fine, no different than a 2010. Another friend had a '75 2002, I fit fine in it, unlike every 3er I've tried to fit in since...go figger...

lemmer

I fit in the 90s model 3-series, but just barely. My 944 seems like a Lincoln in comparison. I also had a 2000 3-series. It was much better than the prior generation, but still not exactly roomy. I never tried the back seats. They seem to be ok for people 60 lbs and under.

Mr_Shiftright

My major problems in a 3 series are two-fold. One, my right leg collides with the console, causing serious discomfort---and the seats are too narrow for me.

I see the dealer on eBay has coined a new term "New Classic".

andre1969

I think part of it might be that those old BMWs were upright, boxy, slab-sided cars, and they had thin doors. Not thin sheetmetal necessarily, but the doors themselves just weren't that thick. Nowadays the cars are bigger, but they're also swoopier, curvier, and have thicker doors and such...all of which might cut into interior room.

Also, even minor details, such as armrests, dashboards, center consoles, etc, seem to take up a lot more space these days.

ghulet

....I fit in pretty well, and the back seat is OK, certainly not great, but acceptable in both head and legroom for two passengers; those two outboard back seats are quite sculptured, rendering the center better for a kid, or nobody.

The front seats are comfy, except the way I like my seat adjusted (bottom quite tilted, backrest quite upright), I end up hitting my head on the sunroof if I hit a bump. It find it difficult to stay in any one position for too long. I either have to rake the backrest a bit more or ride with the roof open.

A good friend has a '95 325is, and yeah the back seat is more than a little tight. Also the front seats are not the thrones they are in my car, seriously, they're a little tight all around and kinda thinnish (then again, I'm 6'0", 200-ish, so maybe that I'm just a tight fit).

qbrozen

I'll just have to give up on the bimmer idea.

I've been pondering a few options to replace her vert. The C70, of course. A saab 93 (although I looked at my Dad's and it doesn't seem any roomier than the bimmer, so that might be out, too). A Mustang. And, believe it or not, a VW Bug. Looks like the backseat might be liveable in that thing. Oh, and another believe it or not, an '01+ Sebring.

So I've put aside the requirement of 20 years old to get classic insurance. But it still has to be inexpensive. I'm thinking $7k tops.

ghulet

....most convertibles, save for the larger ones (e.g., Sebring) have almost useless back seats, as you know. The C70s is no better, at least from what I can tell, and you'd have a hard time finding one for $7k, I think. When you say Bug, are you talking new Beetle or the pre-78 version? I did see an '03 w/114k, triple black (bad) automatic around here for just under $7k. The only other 'viable' options I can think of are Cavaliers/Sunfire (bite my tongue, and they're not much roomier) or maybe a Golf 'Cabrio' (ditto with the room).

Those Sebrings are crawlin' out of the woodwork right now.

lemmer

THis 328i is four miles from my house. This is probably exactly what my wife wants. Maybe I should just give up and test it out. But, ugh, an automatic.

mlatz

I have been looking for a classic car at a decent price for quite some time now. I came across this 1962 Mercedes Benz 220 SE (White). The damage is normal wear and tear. The inside needs some fixing but it is a beautiful car. Is it worth bidding on? I also found a Camaro as well but I like the Benz more.
Don't know what to think of sites like these. Anyone have any experience with them?

1962 Mercedes Benz 220 SE
Thanks

ghulet

....Fintail (who owns a '64 220 SE sedan) can tell you much more.

I sure don't like the looks of that dash--the wires hanging out everywhere, that wood definitely needs to be replaced, and usually ugly seat covers mean ugly seats underneath. That alone is going to cost you several thousand dollars, I'd think. The body looks pretty decent, but you never know what lurks underneath (these can have pretty serious rust issues). I think you'd be better off just buying a nice one (these aren't all that pricey, I don't think) than sinking $$ into one that's needy. Then again, I've done THAT plenty of times, too, so what do I know?

Mr_Shiftright

Oh no, don't buy that. There is only one way to buy an old Benz and that's FINISHED.

This car will be a horrendous money-pit, I can assure you, just by looking at it.

And it's a big heavy tank with a very sloppy and rubbery gear change---you'd really want this car as an automatic, besides.

The car screams "neglect". Chrome's rusted (that'll cost a bundle), dash shows signs of water leakage (onto the floor, by the way), needs front seats, carpeting, wiring, paint, god knows what else.

Strictly a parts car IMO.

Best one in the world is worth $25K--$35K. You can't get from here to there. You can't even get halfway there.

fintail

It was a pretty car once, but now it is closer to a parts car, way beyond redemption. I'd actually not want to park that thing around nice cars, as it is a black hole and might actually make cars near it depreciate. The current bid is fair :P but going more than three digits for it would be tough to defend. Incredibly expensive car to restore properly, a labor of love. Doing the wood properly will be several grand, engine overhaul or rebuild several more grand, chrome and interior many more grand, paint, suspension...it goes on and on. The only way to defend it is to drive it as-is.

For 111 coupes, 15-20K can get a very nice example...and you won't get there from here with 15K.

Mr_Shiftright

If any of the body panels aren't filled with drywall mud and pea gravel, they'd be very valuable to someone restoring a cabriolet from the ground up. And you could probably sell the transmission to someone. If there are any chrome-y pits that aren't 3 sheets by now, those can be worth keeping as well--inside door handles, gauge bezels---all that stuff is unobtainium.

Here's one you could no doubt get for $35K and it's been gone through top to bottom:

220SE for sale

IMO that's about top of the market right now.

$35K should buy you paint, chrome and interior on the beater---that's about it--so you'll be in another $35K easy for mechanicals, tires, glass.

Basically, if you spend $35K on one of these, you are paying for 1/2 a restoration and the car is free.

Pretty good deal!

fintail

I think even 35K is steep on that car, especially as it isn't a 280 and the market isn't strong on these cars - it's the smaller engine and all. 35K is closer to Euro money, I wouldn't want to pay more than 30 or so at the most. It looks excellent, especially with the correct tires - but I think that money would be closer for an amazing 280SE low grille coupe.

But anyway, yeah, it's cheaper to get one already done. That auction car is cool if one wants a beater or doesn't mind a labor of love...but the money will vanish quickly if one wants to restore it.

Mr_Shiftright

If the car had any appeal or value it would never have made it to Co-Part in the first place. The # of people who've already passed on it is probably large.

Every car at auction is an abandoned car.

fintail

That's certainly true at the local public auto auctions I have attended...although that neglected loaded Euro model airbag+ABS 1980 production date 500SE I saw a few years back was tempting :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah but the point is, you didn't bite.

fintail

If I could have picked it up for a couple hundred bucks, and had a place to put it...I probably would have been tempted. Over the years I've seen several complete semi-decent but unreclaimable fintails I could have bought for under $500 too. But, no place to park them makes no sale.

qbrozen

Actually, the C70 supposedly has about 6-7 inches more rear legroom than the bimmer. And a '98 should easily fall in my pricerange. Problem is finding a nice low mileage clean one. I would accept a '99-'00 as well, but would prefer the '98 to avoid the problematic ETM issues.

Oh, sorry, yes, I was referring to the New Beetle. Supposed to be within an inch of the Volvo in the back seat.

The Sebring is bigger than either, and they are plentiful and cheap .... but it is a Sebring. :sick:

There is also the Solara, but the few I've seen have been pricey.

Mr_Shiftright

The Sebring will undoubtedly bring you grief, but on the plus side, all the parts that fail or fall of it can usually be found in abundance in wrecking yards, or at Kragen or Pep Boys. This is one big advantage over a Volvo or German car.

Mercedes 200SE: I suppose as "garage therapy" it might be all right to buy it for $300 bucks and ticker with it, but the result will still be the same---you might as well throw the money into a wood stove; again, on the plus side, you could maybe get it running and then sell it for what you have into it.

My friend recently bought an old car for $1500, put $1000 into it, and flipped it for $4000. Lots of work, though, so it paid not much more than Domino's pizza on a per hour basis. Did he enjoy the work? For about the first 3 days, yeah. :P

So if you're the type that rescues mangy cats, well then.....

omarman

Not sure about that Challenger, but I caught this Barracuda on BAT and was lured to the ebay listing.

Something seems fishy about the car even though it looks like a real trophy catch. I hate to carp about the $39K bid which hasn't met reserve, but after all it's just a low option 383/automatic lunker.

The seller baited the ad with a claim that this was a 4 year + $100K restoration project appraised at $85K. Kind of hard to swallow all that.

jlflemmons

hmm. Who would paint the mating surface of a block? Like, where the head bolts on? Have to admit that is the first time I have ever seen that, and would certainly get that off of there before assembly.

texases

I was wondering about that paint, too. Very odd...did they have that engine apart for a long time? Worried about corrosion? :confuse:

Mr_Shiftright

He might get close to his price, maybe $32K-$35K but the value of 383 cars is dropping, so I dunno.

The $85K "appraisal", done by The We'll Say Anything for Money Appraisal Corp, is so wacky you gotta laugh. That's AAR Cuda money.

"God is in the details" as we say in the old car biz, so I"d need to see the car to really judge its value. It could be worth all the money, hard to say.

omarman

Here's another look at the car posted by gsemike. The '71 Challenger R/T base engine was a 383 so I was looking for a restored 383 E body when I got distracted by the Barracuda on ebay.

All that to say that this particular Challenger probably can't "get there from here." Still, it's tagged and being driven 40 years after its time was already ending even as a new car.

And even settling into ruin like this it's not as hard to look at as the second gen Mitsubishi version or the Foose-built custom on ebay.

lemmer

I started thinking about C70s also. My wife has really decided this car will be her car rather than a replacement for my 944, so that changes things a bit. She insists on a back seat. She won't drive a Sebring. She really wants a BMW, but the sub $10K models are pretty much all E36s with their cheap interiors and plastic rear windows.

qbrozen

Huh. That might be the first time I ever heard anyone call a BMW's interior "cheap."

Well, we gotta get to selling some stuff before I'll let her buy another. The bimmer has to go first. Then the Benz, probably. I'm still considering the Z. We'll see.

lemmer

I guess it is all relative. The E36 has cheaper interior materials than either the subsequent model or the prior model (like yours). Sagging glove boxes are really common. Brittle plastic trim seems to be an issue too, especially on the convertibles. Everything fades at different rates also, giving the interior a patchwork look.

Mr_Shiftright

They have been known to fall to pieces.

lemko

...only $400!



Shoot, I can't even tell what this was. :confuse:

boomchek

looks like an old 80s Mitsu/Dodge Colt Turbo sedan:

fintail

Yep it's an old Colt, you can especially see it in the rear door trim near the C-pillar.

boomchek

Yup, my parents almost bought one in the late 80s. I don't see any around on the roads anymore.

andre1969

I don't really remember seeing that style of Colt around much. I remember the hatchbacks seemed really common, but the 4-door notchback seems to be eluding my memory.

On a (somewhat) related note, I saw an older, RWD 70's Colt at the Carlisle swap meets once, with a 440 stuffed under the hood! It was this style:

mlatz

Thanks for pointing out the additional problems with the car. I feel that maybe I am not looking in the right spots for a classic car.

fintail

I think the engines in a lot of those suffered from valvetrain or sealing maladies...I remember the ones on the road by the mid 90s tended to be heavy oil smokers. They are pretty much all gone here too...I know there's a turbo hatch kicking around town somewhere, that's it.

fintail

You should look in Hemmings or even your local Craigslist. There's a lot to choose from in the sub-10K category, which in my opinion is where the most fun is to be found with old cars - you can buy things to actually drive rather than obsess about and protect.

I have a Mercedes from the same era of that white coupe - mine even has the same engine, but it's a sedan. It's a very fun car, nice to drive, but it isn't really worth much, so I can take it out and not worry.

mlatz

Thanks for the advice. I would have been very upset if I had decided to bid on that car and won. Thanks for saving me from craploads of trouble.

michaellno

When I lived in California, I had a co-worker who owned one of these - a wagon version.