Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail

Some Subaru models, especially later model turbo versions, seem to attract the showboating young [non-permissible content removed] demographic, who is certainly more apt to drive in a manner that attracts the fuzz.

Another reason I like MB...they seem to be pretty invisible to the revenue enforcement community.

stickguy

try a minivan. have to do something real stupid in one of those to attract much attention.

mlatz

Is there a possibilty that you may find a pretty good car at a decent price from an online auto auction or are they used for other purposes. It looks like they may be more geared towards people who are into restoring cars and may be looking for parts.

Mr_Shiftright

Sometimes you can get a good score on eBay, but you know, auction cars are a pig in a poke unless you are personally attending the auction; in that case, if you go to say Barrett Jackson, you can expect to pay 30% to 100% over market because you're on TV and because of the fees involved.

The best classic cars are usually sold privately and without being advertised.

gsemike

Don't you tell me what a big block is

btw: Car is not worth restoring

This is more sad than funny

Well overpriced given the work needed and that it's a garden variety Charger, but I have a soft spot for these since my first car was a 73 Charger. The Magnums really make these look sharp.

Mr_Shiftright

Both look like parts cars to me. The Charger might furnish a rear clip and doors for a better car with a more desirable VIN plate and engine. The Olds should just have small bits stripped off and then junked.

andre1969

Don't you tell me what a big block is

Actually, there IS such a thing as a big-block 350. However, you'll only find it in a 1958 DeSoto Firesweep, Dodge Royal or Custom Royal, or as an optional engine in a Plymouth Fury. :P

I'm tempted to email the seller and suggest we call the 350 a "medium" block...as it WAS big enough to support CID's from 260 on up to 403. Sounds like that would only serve to irk him, though! My understanding though, is that you really only use the phrase "big block/small block", when a particular brand offers two engines based on different engine blocks, with one being larger than the other.

I dunno if this is right or wrong, but I tend to refer to Pontiac's V-8's as a "medium" block, as the 326-455 range are all the same basic block...although I think the 421, 428 and 455 might have had raised decks.

Mr_Shiftright

The seller is incorrect. The Olds 350 is a small block. This refers to blocks under 6 liters with a certain type of "deck height".

andre1969

One thing I never realized, until I found it on the net, is that Pontiac's "350" is actually a 353. Wouldn't that make it a 5.8 once you rounded, since Ford's 351 is called a "5.8"?

Pontiac did something similar with the "326" when it first came out in 1963. It actually displaced 336 CID, I think, but they badged it as a 326 because I think there was some kind of ruling at GM that you couldn't put anything larger than 330 CID in that size of car. For 1964-67 though, I believe it was adjusted and really was a 326.

gsemike

Can someone fill me in: what is 'deck height'? I've never heard the term before this discussion and I've never been 100% clear on the technical distinction between a big block and a small block.

Mr_Shiftright

Deck Height: The distance between the flat "quench" surface of the piston and the top of the bare cylinder

garv214

Oh I agree they won't sell the restored Mustang for the lower mid-20's, but that seems to be where the current EBAY market is valuing it... The seller posted a Buy it Now price of $39K, which will have one of 2 effects either people will bid just for fun because the current bid price is WAY under the BIN, or people will simply look elsewhere for a more "reasonably" price car.

I just checked the auction, it is currently stalling out at $25K, but there may be a flurry of activity shortly seeing as the auction only has 1 hour to go. The last auction stalled out at $28K. The bidding on this one seems a bit more legit, although an ebayer with a feedback score of 2 was definitely testing the bidding waters...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280496514537&ssPag- eName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

lemko

Hmmm. Would've the Buick 350 as in my 1968 Special Deluxe have been this "medium block?" The one thing that distinguished it from the Chevy was the distributor up from and that Buick engines were painted red.

andre1969

With Buick, I think 350 CID is as big as the engine ever got. Other displacements of it were 300 and 340, and it's really an iron-block version of the old 215 that came out for 1961.

It would still be considered a smallblock, even though looking at it, it would appear to be physically larger than, say, a Chevy or Ford smallblock.

Now that I think back on it, the 231 in my '82 Cutlass Supreme did look like it was a bit wider than the 229 in my '80 Malibu. And both of those were V-6 versions of their divisions' smallblock V-8's.

I think one thing that might make the Buick smallblock look bigger than it is is the shape of the intake manifold:

It's flat and pretty much fills out that valley in the center of the engine, which gives the engine a larger, more filled out look.

In contrast, here's the Chevy 350:


In addition to actually BEING a little narrower, the intake manifold seems to sit down more in the valley, and doesn't fill it out as well.

Plus, weren't the heads on the Buick, Olds, and Pontiac V-8's bigger than on the Chevy smallblock?

Mr_Shiftright

You can even have a 400 cid small block.

gsemike

Ok, now if you could explain what flat "quench" surface of the piston and the top of the bare cylinder mena, I'll be in business.

texases

Same here, gsemike! I thought 'deck height was the distance from the crank centerline to the top of the bare block...but that was just an assumtion on my part... :confuse:

Mr_Shiftright

$28K to $32K is all the money for this car.

The bidding stopped at $25,100 this time with 16 bids from 9 bidders.

Mr_Shiftright

The "Quench", also called the Squish Band, is that area between the flat of the piston and the flat of the cylinder head when it's at TDC, with no head gasket.

or as one website puts it:

" On the compression stroke, as the piston approaches TDC, the compressed mixture of fuel and air is "squished" to the remaining space of the combustion chamber where the spark plug and valves reside. The "squeezing" of the mixture creates turbulence and is expected to promote a better and more complete combustion."

tjc78

You can even have a 400 cid small block.

As in Ford's 400 (6.6L)? I think it was actually referred to as a 351M.

andre1969

I always knew that "raised deck" meant that the part of the block where the heads bolt on was higher up, to allow for a longer stroke, but I never knew how they measured "deck height".

I mainly heard the term "raised deck" in relation to Mopars. The 1958 Wedge-head engines that went into DeSotos, Dodges, and the Plymouth Fury were called the "B" engine, while the 1959 engines that went into Chryslers and Imperials had a raised deck and were called the "RB" engine. The B-engines had 350, 361, 383, and 400 displacements, while the RB engines had 383, 413, 426, and 440 displacements. And yes, that's right, they actually had two different 383's! I guess initially they wanted Chrysler to have some exclusivity, so the 383 it used in 1959-60 Windsors and Saratogas was different from the 383 used in everything else. For 1961 though, Chrysler dropped the RB 383 and just used the B just like everybody else.

I guess they do the same thing with 4 and 6-cyl engines as well, although the only one I've ever heard referred to is the slant six. The 170 was known as the "G" engine, while the 225 had a raised deck and was an "RG". I think the later 198 was also an RG.

andre1969

Actually, didn't Ford have sort of a small, medium, and big-block going at the same time? I was under the impression that the 302/351W were the smallblock, while the 351Cleveland/400 were more of a "medium" block, and then the 460 was the big block?

Chevy had to differentiate between its 400 smallblock and 400 bigblock for a few years. The 400 smallblock really WAS a 400, and IIRC, was a 350 with a bigger bore, so big that they had to siamese the cylinders. The 400 big-block, however, was actually a 396 for a few years, and then a 402 in its final years.

I think they also called the smallblock "Turbo Fire" and the bigblock "Turbo Jet"?

omarman

Strange isn't it that Olds was further ahead than other Detroit car makers at the dawn of the 70s and was all finished by 2004? Shame.

A blurb from Wiki re: Olds Generation 2 engines
These engines, while being a wedge-head, had a unique combustion chamber that resulted from a valve angle of only 6°. This was much flatter than the 23° of the small-block Chevrolet and 20° of the Ford small-block wedge heads. This very open and flat chamber was fuel efficient and had lower than average emissions output. It was the only GM engine to meet US emission standards using a carburetor all the way up to 1990.

I even found an old advert from 1970 touting the Olds Positive Valve Rotators.

Mr_Shiftright

As if valve rotators hadn't been in use for decades before that car.

tjc78

I did a quick Wiki and it appears you may be on to something. I never realized the 351M was based on the Cleveland series of motors however it used a Windsor crank. In other words it was a mut!

So, yes they really did have three basic blocks (windsor, cleveland and the 385s (429, 460).

qbrozen

deck height? Yeah, I know all about it. Mine is about 2.5 feet off the ground. Sliding door in the living room leads out to it.

valve rotator? You don't wanna dislocate yours. Hurts like hell.

bare cylinder? hey, hey now. Let's not get outta hand. This is a family kinda website, ya know.

jlflemmons

Okay, about that 442 that belonged to grandpa, or uncle, or whomever...

That was a very common car for the year. It was nothing more than a Cutlass fastback with 442 emblems and trim. Nothing more. A/C was almost always ordered, and it is highly unlikely to be a positrac.

The whole "big block" "small block" confusion comes from Chevy. In truth, the Olds 350 is bigger than the Chevy 350, but certainly not the "big block". Just look at an Olds 350 sitting next to an Olds 455 and you will understand.

If that car sat long enough to get that much rust, the engine is probably not worth anything either. Sad, because those 350's were very good motors. Not the fastest of the GM 350's, but definitely the strongest.

jlflemmons

When I was in college I worked in a parts house. Used to get arguments from the Chevy guys when I would ask if the parts they needed were for a 400 small block, or 400 big block. And with the Ford guys it was a 351W(indsor), 351C(leaveland).

With AMC it was always "Bring in the old part and we'll see if we can match it to something."

omarman

As if Chevy or Ford could match the efficiency of Olds engines due to the Gen2 head design during the primitive era of 70s smog equipment. :shades: At least that was the gist of the Wiki blurb.

But over the years microchip technology meshed with internal combustion design and dramatically raised the bar in efficiency across the board. Great for the auto industry and car fanatics too.

Except by that time Olds was just...nothing special. Too bad. I liked the brand. I owned 2 Delta 88s ('72 2-door and '78 sedan) back in the 80s.

omarman

valve rotator? You don't wanna dislocate yours. Hurts like hell.

Ha! First time I saw it abbreviated PVR it made me think of Paravalvular regurgitation. Another whole type of valve issue. :sick:

texases

Turns out both definitions are right...confusing, huh?
Here's a picture from Hot Rod Magazine's web site:


Here's the other one:

omarman

Only a handful of them built in 87. Apparently 2 of them in Ohio all this time and now both for sale.

This one is "sale pending" and it's condition is "good" (used and scruffy) but has a documented history of regional SCCA competition. $15,900

Then there's the pretty one listed only on BAT which is apparently a 1-owner from Cincinnati with 19k "mostly street miles" history. $75k. Hmm.

<img src="http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a123/hoyvin/951cup.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"

Mr_Shiftright

Well that "race history" is pretty local stuff. I wonder if you put it back on the track what it would race against? No sense buying it if you haven't got a chance at winning anything.

I have no idea how to price the virgin one, but a Cup car that never raced at all, at 5X the price of a 944 Cab? Err..........I don't think so. Try $30K see what happens.

omarman

I think the seller stated that the scruffy one has raced SCCA improved touring and PCA club racing so the buyer would want to look there for getting it back on the track.

I love the local racing history part! I wouldn't load up the car for an August trip to the Rolex Monterey Motorsports Reunion. But we're looking at a $16k asking price so the local racing history is more a window to its purpose than pedigree. And there may still be a niche for it.

But the pretty one? Wow. If a buyer pays a huge premium for a really nice Porsche Turbo Cup car then the next 19k miles might be expensive. Even if the new owner seals it up in a heated garage with feng shui can it be insured for that kind of money? :confuse:

gsemike

That car is back at the station now with a for sale sign on it. Sign says that it is non-numbers matching with a 'real 440 engine' which I took to mean that it came out of the factory with a 440 and that it runs good. It is currently registered and appears to sit right, have full exhaust and be mostly intact in and out although nothing is in good condition.

It has an auto transmission and interior looks like it was nice before it was destroyed. I don't know though what were options on these car and what they all had. It has full console with wood trim, buckets and padded door panels, etc.

IMO, it looks like every panel is rotted through and will need to be replaced, even the roof skin. Sign says best offer over 5k by 5/30 so what is the right offer?

lemko

What does the seller mean by a "real 440." For all the buyer knows, it could be a detuned 440 yanked out of a 1975 Dodge Royal Monaco.

Mr_Shiftright

First of all, these cars are ALL about their engines. That is where their value lies. Secondly, they are all about correct numbers on the engines and on the fender tags.

For all we know this could be anything, even an 6 cylinder car that was faked.

We'd need a VIN number for starters and some cylinder head casting numbers would be good, too.

If as lemko suggests, you might have a rotted out car with a de-tuned Monaco 440, you got nothin' here---basically worthless except for trim pieces, etc.

The car isn't worth restoring unless it were completely original and documented. Even then, by the time you were done, you'd be lucky to break even.

andre1969

If that's a real '71 Challenger R/T and it really had a 440 when it left the factory, it would have had the 385 hp 440 6-pack. There had been a 440-4bbl with 375 hp, but it was dropped after 1970.

So, if that thing has a 440 in it, well judging from the rest of the way the car looks, I doubt if it's a correct 440-6pack. Probably something that came out of a beat-up Royal Monaco like Lemko suggested, with the emissions crap removed and the resulting holes plugged with rags and duct tape!

**Edit: Gsemike, if you see that car again, can you look at the VIN #? The 5th character is the engine code. If it really was originally a 440-6 pack, the 5th character should be a "V".

Here's a breakdown on how to read a 1971 Mopar VIN: http://www.stockmopar.com/mopar-vin-decoding.html

lemko

...to take on THIS project? Only $2,800 and it's in New Jersey:



Here's the ad text:

This is a 1970 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow that had been sitting for about 4 years inside a garage and now outside in a yard since 2 months ago. The car was in a very good running condition when parked. Business accidents happens and here is for sale "AS IS" a solid car with a good body with no rust or dents considering the age of the car. Beware, there&#146;s NO TITLE and only bill of sale. The ignition key is missing and had to take the ignition switch apart to start the engine, yes it starts and runs with help of some starting fluid. The interior is complete but the door panels are apart on the back seats because the previous owner was thinking to restore the complete car. The pictures talk by themselves and I believe the engine, transmission and bumpers worth&#146;s the money I&#146;m asking.

andre1969

that thing would looks like it would be right at home in my back yard with the '52 Benz I've been storing for someone for the past 6 years.

I know I should call the guy to come get that thing out of my yard, but I figure it's not hurting anything for the time being. Plus, I'm kinda curious to see how it ages, in a "Life After People" sort of way! I swear, it doesn't look any different to me than it did 6 years ago, but I guess if I compared then & now pictures, it would be a noticeable difference.

Also, a tree and a couple bushes grew up around it. I had cut a honeysuckle bush and a stickerball tree off right at ground level before the car got parked back there, but didn't dig the root system up. Well, both shot back up with a vengeance. I'd say the stickerball tree, which is coming up right behind the rear bumper, will hit 20 feet this year, while the honeysuckle bush is probably around 12-13 feet, and shades the Benz quite nicely.

xwesx

12-13' in six years! Wow. I have a honeysuckle in my yard, and it has grown about 3' in that same time. Of course, I'm sure it doesn't help that a moose munches on it from time to time....

andre1969

Yeah, moose will do that to ya, although around here we have the deer to contend with.

I guess the climate might make a difference, too. I swear, here in MD, I think the honeysuckle bush is the State Weed or something! That and those flowering pear tree hybrids that get the thorns on them.

I'll have to take some before/after pics of that Benz, just to show how the stuff has grown up around it.

fintail

Crackpipe. I wouldn't pay $28 for it. Parts car with no title, and the most valuable part (radiator shell/grille) is missing. It's probably moldy inside, chrome bumpers from a Shadow are only worth so much when there is no demand, engine/tranny the same. And of course, "ran when parked". No thanks.

boomchek

That's what I was thinking too - the valuable stuff missing - grille, keys, title.

I'd pay $28 for it only to take it apart for fun. :P And then call a wrecker to pick up all the parts.

I bet the grilles are expensive to obtain, so you might as well find a running example for $5k-$10k instead of this jalopy.

fintail

I bet it in the condition the rest of the car is in, it probably needs one of those $8K brake jobs, too. If someone actually wants a Shadow, they are much better off finding a nice one with no needs for $15K or so. You can't get nearly there from here with the $2800 car.

boomchek

I'll call it the Shifty $8k brake special as he brought this brake job up in these forums a few years ago lol.

Mr_Shiftright

To the wreckers, please.

andre1969

Maybe Roger Corman could use it for a remake of Grand Theft Auto.



Oh, wait, one little problem. First, it would have to move under its own power.

Mr_Shiftright

A pile of pea gravel delivered to your driveway that is the size of a Rolls Royce is worth way more than that car.

gsemike

The 5th digit is an N meaning that it's actually a 383 4 barrel car.