Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

I will stand my ground with any 64.5-er by pointing out to him the big fat 5 in his VIN code. :P

69 Volvo ---yep, *power* disk brakes. Even 122s had 'em at the end of their run but still drums in the rear. Ditto P1800s.

garv214

Shifty

What would you think the market is on these cars? As I mentioned in my earlier e-mail, the bidding on the Orange car topped out at $28K, but was definitely suspicious. It looked like the bidding stalled out around $19K before the shilling started, and someone who had an actual feedback score (60) had bid around $23K. At the end of the day, both seem like nice cars, it's just hard to use E-Bay as a serious source because of some gamesmanship going on...

Mr_Shiftright

Well first let's dispense with what's not relevant. "64.5" means nothing for value. "D" code means nothing for value. These are superfluous pufferies. Another case of "rare but who cares"? The letter you want in the VIN is "K", that's the only one that matters.

Having said that, it looks like a *real* nice car and well done, and apparently a real 4-speed, so I'm going to say $30K to $32K should get the job done in today's "Mustang saturated" market.

If he wants more, and keeps re-running, he might snag a naive little fish at $35K but beyond that, I'd be really surprised.

It's not a GT and the color is not to everyone's taste.

The only thing I could ding it on is kind of a let-down exhaust system. They should replace the rusted muffler and fix those horrible welds.

Certainly it's much nicer than Ford ever built it.

RE: the "other" car ---- the one that was only bid to $15K might have been a little light on bids but it's in a totally different class---it's a "driver". The trunk looks a bit rough and the seller says there is chipping, etc. So who knows with this one---it might be a clipped car for all we know. It's just a far cry from a rotisserie restoration.

Looks like, if it checks out with flashlight and magnet and a keen eye, that it might be worth $18K or so.

I also noticed the seller did some real distance shots on the engine.

garv214

I will keep an eye on this auction to see how it does. I suspect that it will go into the lower mid 20's ($23-24K) before any shilling...

Mr_Shiftright

You mean the restored one? They won't sell it that cheap, though. Somebody's got more money than that into it.

ghulet

a little late, I know, please forgive. But my grandparents had a very reliable but super-bland '77 Cutlass 'S' coupe (fastback, automatic, A/C, AM/FM, nothing else, ugly banana color (similar to my Mom's 300E). I heard it was a demo.....it was a rust-bucket from day one, but I drove it a couple times as a teen, and damn that thing was QUICK. I have no idea what engine that thing had, but it was almost scary-fast, seriously, especially compared to my '77 Caprice, which probably didn't weigh much more. :surprise:

omarman

Nice looking car... I have a soft spot for Orange I am finding...

I like the restored early Mustang vert but the color and other stuff put me off. Still it's a pretty rare car with the 4-speed and D code engine. Even the hood looks like an early Mustang. But early production car restorations will likely mean living without GT stuff, A/C, power steering/brakes.

But see the GT-style trumpet tips through the rear valence? Not really textbook original but the owner must have wanted it and it looks okay to me.

There are shabby bits in the interior such as the pedals (see the pics: the clutch pedal pad looks like it's mounted upside down!) and the inop clock on the Rally Pac. While I missed spotting an outright rusted muffler underneath it's still a clunky looking exhaust setup. Plus whatever there may be left to sort out after inspection.

I would pass. Maybe not the kind of "rare" which I would want to drive but some people would love an early Mustang like this. Happily there are other interesting power, color, and comfort combinations which can be found on later production Mustangs.

But this one isn't a bad car at all. Ironically, if this were 1965 then it would be the best built Mustang in the world. Even with nitpicks.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't see where a "D" code means anything like a 4-speed means, because the A code that came right after it has more horsepower. The premise here is that a less desirable option is worth more than a more desirable one because it is more rare? Doesn't compute with me. :shades: Is a rare 3-speed worth more than a 4-speed....no.....is a car with heater and radio delete worth more than one with R&H? nope.

Of course a D code is worth more than the 6 cylinder, goes without saying.

british_rover

For sale just up the road at an estate sale 1966, I think anyway woman there doesn't know much about it, Lincoln Continental Convertible

.

Will try to get more pics later on stopped by while on a test drive with a customer.

Pic of the motor here a 462 MEL.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w83/British_rover/Car%20sightings/141999b2.jp- - g

I will try to get some more details later maybe we can figure out what it is worth.

fintail

How much?

I know those things can be money pits, but people like them, so it should find a new home.

gsemike

That looks like a real nice example

british_rover

There were three of us standing around it. My customer guessed $7,500 another guy said $5,000 I said they will be asking $10,000 but that is too much.

The woman there didn't know much about the car I am going to try and swing by there and get some more info. At least find out if the top works plus get some more pictures. Maybe between $7,500 and $5,000 is right money. Even if the top works it isn't in the best shape.

fintail

Yeah 10K might be a bit steep if it has immediate needs. Did it run and/or drive? Sounds like my fintail...looks good from 10 feet, but don't look too closely as you get closer. I bet that top costs a fortune to fix if the internals are dead.

explorerx4

good to see you post.
i couldn't tell from the picture if it's a convertible or has a vinyl roof.

omarman

The early Mustang vert with a D code engine and 4-speed is a pretty rare car. Like I posted before, it's not the kind of "rare" which I'd want to drive and there's more interesting power, color, and comfort combinations available in later Mustangs.

I didn't put any dollar value on the car and I voted "pass" on it.

Somebody computed its value at $30k to $32k and posted that the seller may snag $35k for it. Forget who said that. :shades:

omarman

But my grandparents had a very reliable but super-bland '77 Cutlass 'S' coupe ...and damn that thing was QUICK.

I had a similar experience with a '76 Olds 98 2-door which I borrowed from a friend in late summer of '79. Even in its 1976 EPA-approved unleaded trim that 455-powered battleship could heave itself away from a stop light with 1960's authority. The bumpers and brown paint were a constant reminder that it was the 70s though.

Was there something about Olds V-8 engines in the 70s that made them more adaptable to pollution controls? Seems like Olds engines could run cleaner and stronger than some others which struggled during that era.

Pontiac built the potent T/A 6.6 engine starting in 1977 but the Olds 403 was apparently required for California emissions.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes that's the smart way. I tell people that when you are shopping for an old car just pretend that ALL of them cost $1, and then from that $1 pile pick the one you REALLY want to drive and own.

Mr_Shiftright

If the 67 Lincoln 'vert runs out well, and even with some needs, they might indeed get $10K for it. But if it has rust issues or a torn up interior, then forget that.

jlflemmons

The Olds engines did a few more tricks with the intake, and tended to develop more torque at lower RPM. Of the 350ci engines (Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, Olds) the Olds got the best fuel economy, here again probably because of the lower rpm.

Olds was also the first to use PVR (positive valve rotation) on both the intake and exhaust valves, virtually eliminating burned valves. This was a big deal when high gearing combined with crappy unleaded fuels caused major carbon buildup issues. I have seen Buick and Chevy 350's with the heads pulled and the valves looking like a mess. With the Olds, you just ran Marvel Mystery oil in the fuel every 1000 to 1500 miles and the top end stayed clean as a whistle with no valve problems.

For you youngsters, PVR was a part that Oldsmobile developed and used in place of the normal valve spring cap. Every time the valve opened and closed, the valve itself was rotated about 8 degrees. By doing this, carbon could not build up in the valve seat as it was constantly being "scrubbed". The valves and seats were hardened, so it didn't hurt them, either.

Virtually eliminated burned valves.

martian

Thanks for the info. You still see valve grinding kits for sale (JC Whitney)..when was the last time anybody had to do this? As you point out, hardened steel alloy valve seats pretty much eleiminated the need for this..unless you had a British car (engine technology stuck in the 1920's).!

qbrozen

Hey BR!

Lincoln looks good in that pic. Would definitely need more info. Real nice ones can get pretty big money.

another vert:
$1k starting bid, reserve not met, yet not even worth the time/effort if you got it for free!

lemmer

How big of a money pit would a 1994 SL 320 be?

qbrozen

Definitely have to put the bimmer and benz up for sale. Just gotta find the time to do it!

Spent all free time this weekend getting the MR2 ready for its first autoX next weekend. I didn't get much more than a 5-minute test drive afterwards (have yet to get it to the inspection station, so its not legal to drive), but it was enough to scare the heck out of myself. In quick transitions, it can produce g forces I am not accustomed to.

I think I did make a mistake with the exhaust, though. It is LOUD! As in, this-would-suck-to-commute-in, or I-need-earplugs, kind of loud. Guess maybe that will be good at the track, but dimishes the streetability quite a bit.

This week I need to get it inspected and take it in for an alignment. While I had it apart, I dialed in as much negative camber as allowed by the stock adjustment, but it still appears positive overall when sitting on the ground. Weird. Might have to slot the upper mounts to change it as much as I'd like to.

fintail

Those actually aren't that bad. It's not going to be like a Corolla with that mileage (for an SL, 140K is quite high as most are sunny Sunday drivers), but they aren't as complex as later cars, and are well built. Biggest issues will be age related...maybe some electrical or suspension deterioration. This of course if all servicing has always been done by the book.

british_rover

I thought it was a 66 cause of no emblems on the fenders but couldn't tell for sure.

The interior looked fine not stellar but fine as did the top. Does the top work? Don't know and I didn't start it or try to drive it although she said it drives fine. I was still out with a customer and never had a chance to go back and look at it. Will try to swing by there today see if they sold it.

They also had a mid 60s, prob a 1965 or 1966, Bonneville Convertible that I got pictures of but need to resize them. That car was also listed as a driver but was in much worse shape. Visible surface rust on the body and in the trunk, very faded paint. Top would have to be replaced, no rear window, interior rough, etc. etc.

They wanted $7,500 for that one.

Mr_Shiftright

Well figuring that the best 66 Bonnie convertible in the world is going to struggle to pass the high teens in value---you can't get there from here, as we say. Sounds like about a $4000 car at best---you can do the top for maybe $1000, take it to miracle auto body for $2000, get some slip covers and floor mats, tune 'er up----and....and....you still have a pile of $7000 junk.

Mr_Shiftright

Buying the SL 320 depends entirely on what you start with. If this was a very well-cared for car, with complete service records, at that price I might take a chance. The price is a good starting point and not too unrealistic---getting it for $5500 would be okay, $6K is a stretch but probably okay as well.

Biggest issue you have to deal with is that this is a pretty boring car to drive---so it's all about the top going down, not your heart racing anytime soon. Certainly worth your looking at it and checking it out.

british_rover

I would actually be more interested in the Bonne then the Conti cause even as cool as the conti is I know what a PITA that top is and I really do like the Bonnes from that time. .

My gut on the Bonne said 3,000-4,000 assuming no structural rust.

andre1969

You have me kinda curious about that Bonneville. BTW, one quick way to tell 1965 and 1966 apart is that the stacked headlights on the '65 had a forward thrust to them, with the upper headlight sticking out further than the lower. On the 1966, the headlights were more straight-up, although the fender itself had a little peak that jutted out at the top.

Of the two, I prefer the '65, although I like 'em both!

And I can speak from experience, convertible tops ain't cheap! I think the one on my '67 was about $500 just for the top itself, but then when you add in the labor, the other trim parts and seals and junk, etc, the cost blows up fast!

omarman

I have seen Buick and Chevy 350's with the heads pulled and the valves looking like a mess.

You're right. I remember seeing that on small block Chevy engines. You'd find one or two cracked valves after cleaning off the crud.

Interesting stuff about Olds engines. In high school a friend drove a 70 Olds 442 W-30 and 4-speed with the "Dr. Olds" paint/trim (remember the magazine ads?) and a set of Cragar S/S wheels. Great car but high maintenance and that led to his first speeding ticket.

His brother (Chevy fanatic) was helping Kenny tune up the Olds to get rid of a high speed engine miss problem. The 455/4bbl only ran badly like that at 100-mph though. So after plugs, points, rotor/cap, etc, they took the car out for another test drive.

This time out the 442 easily ticked past the 100-mph speedo mark without a miss. The boys were impressed and so was the Ohio State Highway Patrol. They explained that it was just a test drive to find out if they had cured the high speed miss but the trooper said, "Looks like it's running fine now," and wrote a summons to appear. :surprise:

16 y/o Kenny went to court to answer for a violation of 100mph in a 55mph zone. Got his license back after completing some kind of safe driver training course and paying a fine and court costs. I wonder if pleading "tune up" ever worked to beat a summons/ticket back then for anybody?

qbrozen

Mint ..... needs body work.

Seriously, though, I wonder what work it needs? I'm not seeing it in the pics. I like the color combo. Paint looks fresh. Wonder if it is covering anything up.

omarman

Seller didn't mention "rust" so I went looking for that. Hard to tell with those pics but there may be some rust bubbling under the paint around the rear trim strip of the convertible top.

stickguy

looks pretty clean. But I like the redesign (65+?) a lot better.

plus, yuck to the automatic.

and you can't possibly be looking at this to replace the Bimmer?

qbrozen

I have an ebay saved agent thing sending me all verts within a certain range/price each day, so it just happened to be one that caught my eye and I've been watching it. Yes, the intent would be to replace the bimmer with it. I mean, not IT. I'm sure the wife would never go for it. I have enough projects.

Mr_Shiftright

You really want a '65 on up Corvair. Nothing wrong with an automatic in this case, since the stick shift is so sloppy it's like working an oar inside a barrel.

ghulet

I like the 65+ Corvairs better, too (I'd LOVE a four-door) but that particular example looks pretty nice, plus the factory (I think?) AM/FM is pretty darn cool. Still....eh. Cute as hell, but nothing to goo over, really.

stickguy

not my normal cup of tea, but i do like the style of the later ones. And a nice resto mod (DIY stinger?) with real tires could be a hoot.

Mr_Shiftright

And they're noisy and the heater boxes stink you out.

a '65 'vert, white with red interior, automatic, that's the way to go.

jlflemmons

Oh, yeah that '70 W30 engine was high maintenance. It was also the most powerful engine Olds ever put on the street. If you were going to drive it sanely, you could use R46S plugs. But if you were going to play with it and hope to get more than 3000 miles out of the plugs, you did better with R44S. And the high speed miss/backfire was very indicative of a fried set of plugs.

Where did your friend find fuel for that brute? They generally were not happy on anything below 100 octane, and sucked that down like a cheap beer! The one I was allowed to spend a day playing with was as you described, but with the beefed up auto. When babied, it got 9mpg. During play time, 4mpg.

omarman

That 442 was his daily transportation and he was a regular customer at Sunoco-late '74, early '75. I don't know if any other pump gas made higher octane. Sohio sold their Boron gas but mostly it was Sunoco 260 with the best reputation.

Between insurance, gas, maintenance, and such it wasn't long before Kenny sold the Olds and bought a new '76 Plymouth Duster. It was a low option slant six with the overdrive manual. Great on gas, insurance/maintenance. And right away he felt buyer's remorse.

He put the new car up for sale in the Lancaster paper and began looking for another 442 in our senior year. He told me that it might be hard to find another 4-speed car but that he had test driven one with a Turbo 400 automatic and was really impressed with the way it ran.

For anything heavier than a Mustang/Camaro it seemed like an automatic always did make a better street car. And that's something to give Detroit credit for in the 70's: They made the best A/C and automatic transmissions.

srs_49

Interesting story about speeding tickets. I had a '69 Camaro Z-28 that I would, on occasion, open up :shades: . Funny part is that in all the years I had that car I never got a ticket. Was pulled over a couple of times but never got a ticket. First speeding ticket I ever got was in my '73 Fiat, for exceeding the just posted 55 mph national speed limit for the interstates. Go figure.

srs_49

Back in those days, almost all of the brands had a 100+ octane premium gas. IIRC, Sunoco had a 103 octane. That was back when lead was still being used as an octane booster.

srs_49

And that's something to give Detroit credit for in the 70's: They made the best A/C and automatic transmissions

One of the Road and Track editors put it this way: Detroit built good AC and automatic transmissions because of the hot/humid summers in the mid west (where all of the engineering was done) and the straight, traffic filled roads. On the other hands, the Europeans like BMW built well handling and braking cars because of the open mountainous roads in Bavaria.

tjc78

Detroit built good AC

I still want A/C as good as my 79 Continental. I haven't had anything close since, the other car I remember with an absolute freezer was a friend's 86 Fifth Avenue.

lemko

Heck, my 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis LS had the best A/C. You could see frost forming around the vents! You could park the car in the middle of a blacktop lot in the blazing hot sun at noon and the car would cool down instantly. You might even get cold!

jlflemmons

Amoco Gold was the Texas good stuff. 102 Octane. We never had Sunoco.

But the Amoco brand was long gone by 1980ish.

Mr_Shiftright

It's been statistically proven that certain makes of car get more tickets than other makes----for unknown reasons. Perhaps it's just some kind of random "clumping" but one has to wonder why Subarus are at the top of the list. :confuse:

andre1969

Perhaps it's just some kind of random "clumping" but one has to wonder why Subarus are at the top of the list.

It's because the cops do a lot of discriminatory profiling against the Lebanese. I'm sure Danny Thomas must have gotten pulled over on a regular basis! :P

(sorry, bad, vague Golden Girls reference in there)

Mr_Shiftright

I see your point (and it might have a grain of truth actually) but still there's no way for a cop to really know that from the side of the road.

lemmer

No dude should ever, ever reference the Golden Girls.