Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    about my '67 Catalina...sort of a mix on good news and bad news. The good news? The transmission's harsh/late/inconsistent shifting was just a vacuum hose. And the guy also fiddled around with the choke and got it to work a lot better.

    The bad news? It was almost out of oil. As in, down to maybe a quart! :surprise: And low on antifreeze as well. I had recently put antifreeze in, and didn't check the oil all that long ago, and it seemed fine.

    I keep a big drip pan under the car in the garage, and it stays pretty dry, so it's not leaking oil or antifreeze. At least, not when it's parked, cooled down, and nothing's under pressure. Although I'd think that if I pulled a hot car into the garage and parked it, something would leak out, until it cooled down?

    So, I guess that means it's USING oil and antifreeze. :sick: But, I've never seen any antifreeze in the oil. And I've never seen it blow white smoke, with that sweet antifreeze scent. And it doesn't blow bluish smoke either.

    So, it makes me wonder...where the hell is it going?! Anyway, I'm picking the car up today, and I guess I'll just keep a sharper eye on it.

    The oil thing REALLY bothers me, though. Especially since the oil pressure idiot light works, and the aftermarket gauge that's hooked up works. The light comes on when the oil gauge shows less than 18 psi or so. Would a car still have good oil pressure with only one quart in it? Also seems odd that it wasn't making any clattering noises.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Is there a lot of oil on the engine and undercarriage? Maybe it loses oil due to leaks and is streaking backward when the car is moving. I'd expect an older car to use some oil, but not 4 quarts. As for the antifreeze thing, you got me. That sweet syrupy smell is unmistakable.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    Is there a lot of oil on the engine and undercarriage? Maybe it loses oil due to leaks and is streaking backward when the car is moving.

    Nah, it's still pretty clean underneath. So, I dunno what's up with it. When I get the car back though, I'm going to try to drive it as much as possible, weather permitting, keep an extra-close eye on oil and antifreeze levels, be extra-vigilant checking for leaks, and see if anything rears its ugly head. I just hope I'm not looking at an eventual engine rebuild!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,361
    Like you said, just keep a good eye on. IMO it would of had to have been pretty bad underneath if that much leaked out. Maybe the last time you had it serviced it was underfilled? I am with you that with only a quart in the crankcase pressure would have been low. Also, with that little oil I am shocked that you didn't hear some clattering from the valves.

    My 79 Continental went through about a quart every 7-800 miles without leaking a drop, so I guess its possible that it can be burning some without blue smoke out the back.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,922
    Keep any car long enough, and you're going to be looking at an eventual engine rebuild! :P
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    Keep any car long enough, and you're going to be looking at an eventual engine rebuild!

    True, but I've only put about 14,000 miles on my '67 Catalina since I've owned it, and the engine was rebuilt shortly before I bought it. So I'd like to think it has a little life left in it!

    Anyway, I picked the car up after work. Luckily, there was a break in the rain, which lasted just long enough for me to get it home and tucked in. It's driving a LOT better. Shifted into third at around 33 mph. And the mechanic fiddled around with the choke enough that it's running a lot better, to boot!

    Now, I just need to get religious about checking that oil and antifreeze! :blush:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Ah, but rebuilt by WHOM and how well? I've taken apart a few friends' "rebuilt" engines and they were more like new rings on old pistons, new bearing shells on an old crank, and a valve job and a paint job. That's what is more accurately called a "light overhaul".
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    Ah, but rebuilt by WHOM and how well?

    Yeah, I have to admit, sometimes I ask those questions about my Catalina's engine. I've posted this before, but here's what's been done to it...at least, according to the write-up that was taped to the window when I bought it...

    1967 Pontiac Catalina Convertible
    Original rebuilt 400 engine
    Rebuilt Turbo 400 transmission
    Dual exhaust, power steering, power brakes, air conditioning
    Power convertible top and tilt steering
    1000 miles on stock 400 rebuild
    New pistons and rings
    New rod, main, and cam bearings
    New timing chain and gears
    New water pump
    New oil pump and screen
    New Pontiac blueprint Ram Air cam and lifters
    Rebuilt 4-barrel Rochester Carb
    (Original 2-barrel and intake included)
    Heads rebuild, block machined
    (All machine work done by NAPA)

    I have no idea how well all that stuff was thrown together, but for the most part, the car always seemed to run well. Never would start on the first try and would be cranky warming up, because the choke was messed up and missing parts. And the "rebuilt" transmission tended to leak. Oh, and it always seemed to run hot.

    I guess after 16 years and 14,000 miles though, if it was thrown together really bad, it would've most likely blown up by now? While that's not a lot of miles, well, when I was younger, I used to like to show off how it would hold first gear up to about 55 mph all by itself when you floored it, and chirp on the 1-2 upshift. And sometimes, even on the 2-3! So admittedly, the car has been put through its paces from time to time. :shades:

    Anyway, thankfully this visit to the repair shop didn't cost much...because about an hour ago, the water heater in my house just blew! :surprise:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It really comes down to the talent of the machinist. It all *sounds* good but unless you broke it down and mic'd it all up, you couldn't really say. For instance, you can not only bore, but "over-bore", or you can bore incorrectly. You can rebuild a head but miss an internal crack that you can't see. You can put new rings on but set the gaps wrong. You can install new bearings but torque 'em wrong....all kinds of mishaps occur, even to really knowledgable people.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    edited October 2010
    Rarest W210 on the continent just ended on ebay...this would be cool, but a nightmare at the same time. Any car with a big red plate on the engine that reads "ATTENTION: This vehicle needs standard-deviating engine tune-up specifications" can be nothing but fun.

    Spy on people
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    speaking of tuner cars, did you hear that Ewe Gembella was found dead in South Africa----perhaps a homicide.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    Yes, i read about him going missing a while ago.
    Overall, not going to be a good story.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    I read he was involved in a multinational money laundering scheme...probably not a safe line of business
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    http://winstonsalem.craigslist.org/cto/1972964405.html">Answer to a question nobody asked

    Why he'd think anyone would pay 10 grand is mystifying
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    That looks horrible! I know too much front-end overhang is a bad thing, but I think a car like an 80's Caprice NEEDS a bit of overhang to balance out its style. Also, you'd think the seller would at least put some bigger, sportier rims and ditch the whitewalls and wire hubcaps. And why did it have to be the Brougham LS model? It just looks a little extra clashy with the Chrysler-inspired formal landau roof. If he just used a base Caprice, it would've looked better. Well, less awful at least.

    It almost looks like one of those test mules that automakers use, where they'll take a front-end that they're proposing and stick it onto an existing car, to test out how it does with cooling, airflow, and such.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Looks like somebody slapped a modern Charger front end on a taxi!

    For the next project, he plans to put a 300-C front end on an R-body! Actually, that might work if he doesn't alter the front overhang.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    I don't think a 300C front would look *as* bad on an R-body, but still wouldn't be a thing of beauty. I think that big grille and bumperless front-end just wouldn't work right. And while the 300C is a bit boxy, I think that front-end is still too rounded to work on a crisp, angular R-body.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I just finished reading "Thus Spake David E.", a book of assorted columns penned by David E. Davis when he was with Car & Driver and Automobile magazine.

    One passage from the June 1979 column of C&D was intriguing enough to me to paraphrase it here for all ... he wrote this from Geneva, while attending the Geneva Auto Show.

    Breakfasted all by myself in the very elegant Hotel de la Paix, just around the corner on the lakefront, then cabbed to the show in a lovely, clean '78 Chevrolet Caprice. There's a surprising assortment of American GM products on the streets of Geneva. Camaros and Firebirds, big Chevys, the odd Corvette, but most impressive are the new Malibu sedans and station wagons. The Chevrolet Malibu looks as though it was designed for Europe. The car is perfectly at home in these surroundings, looking elegant and purposeful all at once. I'll bet the that F41 suspension would Mr. Well-To-Do Swiss Burgher and his Malibu through the Alps pretty smartly too. Not as well as a BMW or a Rover 3500, perhaps, but a lot better than any American car that preceded it.

    There you have it, andre .. an independent perspective on a car you've mentioned frequently.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    Surprising amount of American metal on the road in Switzerland, especially GM and Mopar. I saw an 80s Caprice taxi (highline, not US style taxi) in service in Zurich last year.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    It's been so quiet here so here are a few to consider:

    "I am willing to part with it" How benevolent

    Can probably make your money back this winter

    Could be OK Given the resale on Accords, this could be OK if he comes down a bit

    As nice as these come but the price keeps dropping

    For you Panther fans
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,806
    good grief. That's the first 442 I've seen that I didn't like. That is UG-LEE!

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    He's asking high money for that thing. A sad day for American V8 power.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    I think that 455 put out all of 190 hp...hard to imagine fewer hp/cubic inches, combined with what was probably pretty dismal mpgs...a lose/lose/lose situation :(
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    good grief. That's the first 442 I've seen that I didn't like. That is UG-LEE!

    Heck, normally I don't mind GM's '73-77 Colonade cars, but even I don't like that thing! It's mainly the home-made looking interior accents and the landau top that blanks out the quarter windows, that kills it for me.

    And I don't even want to think what kind of hp the 455 was putting out by 1975. I think there was a hot version of it in '73-74 that still put out 250 hp, but for '75 I think it was just a 190-200 hp lump. A 2.56:1 axle ratio was standard, with a 2.73:1 or 3.08 optional.

    A sad finale, indeed. I wonder if there are any vintage road tests published online for it?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2010
    Just to give you an idea....I have all these Olds 4-4-2 books, and they all stop at 1972, except for one of them that discusses the mildly collectible Hurst Olds :(
  • toomanyfumestoomanyfumes Member Posts: 1,019
    edited October 2010
    Looks like rust on the bumper, and the rough interior doesn't help. I'm sure seeing it in person would show a lot more defects.

    I had a '76 Trans-Am with the 455 and 4-speed, I think it was around 200 hp.
    Good torque, could do some nice donuts (I was around 20 when I owned it) but I'm sure it was nothing like the 70-71 Super Dutys.
    2012 Mustang Premium, 2013 Lincoln MKX Elite, 2007 Mitsubishi Outlander.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    I'm home now, and have my old car book pulled out. Looks like in 1975, the Olds 455 put out a whopping 190 hp. There was a 215 hp version, but it was only offered in the Toronado. The 350 that the Cutlass used put out 170 hp.

    This book also lists a 400 being offered in the Delta 88 and 98, with 185 hp, and it's showing what looks like a Pontiac bore and stroke (4.12 x 3.75) I wonder if this is correct, or a misprint? Interestingly, that engine also shows up as an option for the '75 LeSabre in California. Odd...I wonder what Buick and Olds were doing with Pontiac engines? The Olds engines were cleaner running and would have been better suited to California standards...in fact, Cali ended up banning the Pontiac engines for 1977!

    Just to show how fast things got bad, the book also lists a 200 hp 350 being offered in the Cutlass for 1974. I found a 0-60 time online of 8.9 seconds. For 1975, the 350 with 170 hp was dropped to 11.4. I wouldn't be surprised if the '74 350 would actually outrun the '75 455!
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "the book also lists a 200 hp 350 being offered in the Cutlass for 1974. I found a 0-60 time online of 8.9 seconds."

    I thought '74 was generally the nadir for power and performance, and that things began to improve with the installation of catalytic converters in '75. Maybe Olds was an anomaly.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    "I thought '74 was generally the nadir for power and performance, and that things began to improve with the installation of catalytic converters in '75"

    Things took longer than that to turn around (kind of like our current economic situation). The 0-60 times I have are uniformly bad from '74 through '81, with major improvements only starting in '82. MPGs were such a priority back then, they didn't use the efficiency for acceration, it seems.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,070
    edited October 2010
    reminds me of a kid in my HS that had a (nearly new at that point) 1974 GTO. The small one, based on the Ventura (Nova clone). Hey, had a V8 (350 I assume) and a shaker hood, so in 1979, it was hot stuff!

    If I ended up with one of those or something like the 442 above, I am guessing the 1st temptation would be to yank the lump of an engine and the primitive emissions stuff out and put in some sort of crate engine. double the power, and probably 10x the drive-ability!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,070
    not even that slow. From a road test quoted on Wiki, it could do 7.7 0-60 with the 200 HP 350. Pretty good in those days, especially compared to the 67 Camaro 6 cyl powerglide or the 1974 Duster 6 cyl 3 speed stick I drove in HS!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Pretty good if you can believe the numbers, since anyone can say anything on wikipedia.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    I thought '74 was generally the nadir for power and performance, and that things began to improve with the installation of catalytic converters in '75. Maybe Olds was an anomaly.

    The Catalytic converter definitely improved things from the standpoint of ease to start, warming up, fuel economy, reducing sputtering and stalling, etc. And, I think it got more of the hp to the road, if that makes sense. So, a 150 hp engine in 1975 would probably perform better than a 150 hp engine in 1974 did.

    However, a lot of engines still got an hp cut from 1974-75. For instance, Olds offered two 350's in 1974: 180 hp and 200. I'm not sure if that's a 2bbl and a 4bbl carb, or if they're both 4bbl and one's just tuned hotter. For 1975, the 350 came in 145, 165, and 170 hp guises. In 1974, the 455 was offered with 210, 230, or 275 hp (I wonder if that 275 hp was something that was advertised but then canceled at the ast minute...that's a LOT of hp for 1974!). For 1975, the 455 was down to 190 hp or 215.

    Things did improve a little bit in 1975, maybe up through 1978, perhaps as the auto makers learned to live with the catalytic converter and the fuel and emission standards of the time. But then in 1979 it seemed performance, driveability, etc, started to suffer again, and the hp ratings began to drop. I'd say things hit a new low again around 1981-82. Tall axle ratios, all the electronic control systems they were shoving in the cars, and all those undersized V-8's (Ford's 255, GM's 260, 265, and 267) all contributed to cars that were slow, unrleliable, and that wouldn't always start. Then in '83, things got a little better. For one thing, all those dumb little V-8's got dropped, the computer systems improved, and reliability did, as well.

    I think 1985 was a major turnaround year, although one reason it might stick out to me is that my grandparents bought two new vehicles that year...an '85 LeSabre and an '85 Silverado. And Mom bought and '86 Monte Carlo the following year. They were all good cars. I still have the pickup. And at 25 years of age, and despite the 4-bbl carburetor and crude electronics, it probably runs better today than most 1979-82 cars did when they were brand-new!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    From a road test quoted on Wiki, it could do 7.7 0-60 with the 200 HP 350.

    I've seen that 7.7 number thrown about in several places for the 1974 GTO. I think the test was of a stick shift car, which no doubt helped. FWIW, the original 1964 GTO, with a 389-4bbl, was only good for about 7.5 with a stick shift. Everything being factory stock, of course.

    The problem though, is that was as good as it got in 1974. With the 1964, at least, if you wanted better performance, you could get the tri-Power. And in later years, they started shoving some pretty powerful 455's under the hood.

    And, in 1974, that new GTO had to compete not only with the 360 Duster/Dart Sport, which would walk it like a dog, but also had to compete with any number of much more powerful used musclecars, that were still cheap and abundant. In 1973, for example, my Dad bought a '64 GTO for $400.

    By 1974, I think Ford was pretty much out of the hot compact market, although I guess a Maverick with a 302 and the right gearing could be pretty quick. And I can't remember, but did they ever put the 351 in the Maverick?
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    I've never seen a Maverick with a 351 from the factory
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    I never saw a factory built 351 Maverick either, but the 351 Windsor was an option on the Granada/Monarch. One of my friends bought a new Granada with the 351/automatic and the parents of another friend bought one with a 302 and 4 speed/OD trans. I liked the one with the 302 and manual trans better.

    Here's a link to a typical Maverick project car likely to show up on CL from time to time. It seems like most of the survivors are the six cylinder models which Grandpa kept in the garage-if he didn't buy a Pacer or slant six Dart instead.

    My oldest brother bought a new '72 Maverick Grabber with the 302/automatic. By '77, he had removed the factory drivetrain and was preparing to swap in a 406 FE block V8, C-6 automatic and a 9" Mustang rear axle.

    When I first saw his project in progress he'd just had a friend torch/notch the Maverick shock towers and was looking for a shop to narrow the Mustang axle to fit. Most surprising to me at the time was that he had purchased a set of Hooker headers which were specifically made for a big block engine swap in a Maverick. I couldn't understand why he didn't just buy a Mustang.

    I've read about others since then who swap bigger engines into the Maverick/Comet. But with a heavier drivetrain and a beefed up platform to sort out, how much advantage could there be versus a Mustang build up?
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Geez, I hope he has a frame-straightener for the first time after he stomps on the gas pedal!

    Well sometimes projects defy logic---they are done for the same illogical reason as people climbing mountains amidst great suffering.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "... did they ever put the 351 in the Maverick?"

    No, although I imagine that a few individuals might have stuck a 351 Cleveland in one.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    Haha! You're right. Found a pic online of a 351C swap into a Maverick. Poster reports that he made no mods to the shock towers for the swap but now has to lift the engine to get to 4 of the spark plugs. His next modification planned is to...notch the shock towers! Hahaha!

    Considering all the aftermarket stuff for the small block Ford V8 (better flowing heads, stroker kits, etc) it seems even more puzzling to me why the Maverick is an engine swap project for many people. But it could be because so many survivor cars are the six cylinder models.

    image
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not worth fixing but a treasure trove of pricey little pieces of this and that. Might be a nice donor car for a coupe or convertible restoration project. I suppose you could patch it up but who knows what's next to go?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    edited October 2010
    Ha, I saw that one too. Not worth restoring, but doesn't look too bad - maybe adjust that clutch and drive it til it dies, then part it out. Not bad for the money, looks complete and not too trashed, but I see some rust.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not my favorite Benz model---they are heavy and slow and the gearshift is diabolical. However, he did upgrade to a 2.8L, and if that engine is in good shape, it might work in a 280SL.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    edited October 2010
    For a $900 beater it still could be fun...the rust worries me though, I see a light bezel is in one pic and not others, I suspect those front fenders are very rusty.

    280SLs usually aren't up for engine swaps anyway are they?

    That thing is just a handful of years newer than my old car, but it looks so much more modern.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually yes, the 280SL has a chronic problem of the cylinder head surfaces corroding. You will find many a 280SE head on a 280SL.

    I'm not sure where the "fun" is in this car but I'll keep looking, especially if it has the diabolical floor shift. You'll spend half your road time trying to find the right gear. This car screams for an automatic.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    edited October 2010
    Fun based on looks and reactions alone, and for younger people operating an old machine...some young people these days still have a fascination with operating old things, and under a grand is a doable price of admission. My fintail gets as much attention as a Ferrari, people look and point and talk to you about it, that old heap would likely get some comments too.

    Between the head and the block (I think) on my car, it once had a coolant leak - kind of the reverse of a typical head gasket failure, it would leak onto the outside of the engine,...I suspect that's not a good thing, and I think it happened because in an emergency I once ran water as coolant and didn't flush it out soon enough.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,600
    It's in Victoria, BC, so cars there don't get exposed to much salt. They generally aren't too rusty. Victoria has a lot of older cars. This one doesn't look too bad.

    I love the literary style of the ad!

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    The front fenders look kinda crusty to me, especially the headlight bucket area - a notorious rust hole on period MB. But for the money, that's how it goes. After 40 years the cars will rust in the area (I am not terribly far away) if kept outside. But it does look fairly straight and solid.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay fair enough. Having no heater is scary, though. I'd hate to have to dig that core out of there. Hopefully it doesn't have AC.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    If it has AC, it is just an old under-dash unit that hasn't worked for 30 years anyway. ;)

    I wonder if the heater problem is a broken control unit on the dash, those cars have the weird fragile levers like a fintail. It doesn't get terribly cold in Victoria...open the sunroof and enjoy a crisp day.
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