Any downside to buying a hybrid?

larsb · October 2005

"That makes sense to Mark, who said the savings can add up by slowing down even on short trips. He figures that a commuter making a 30-mile drive to work at 65 mph instead of 75 mph would save about 30 cents in fuel costs per day -- or $150 a year -- and spend just 3 1/2 minutes more daily on the road."

Read the whole story:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/10/19/GAS.TMP

aaron_t · October 2005

Someone or group has convinced the average person that hybrids will save the world, and it isn't the automotive journals I read. There are plenty of examples on Edmunds over estimating the savings or comparing a new hybrid to their current vehicle which is not even close to the same vehicle market (size/content/capability

misterme · October 2005

Hi aaron:
"secondary suburban streets and divided freeways, there would be little time a hybrid's engine would disable"
Disable? What do you mean? My engine doesn't do this at all.

"Battery life and resale are unknowns at this time for any new vehicle, especially hybrids"
Battery life is already covered and regarding resale of any new vehicle, how are Explorers and Navigators doing these days?

"A vast majority of car buyers and non-automotive journalists assume 50mpg is going to pay for itself vs. any other vehicle on the market for their situation"

The vast majority of media reports display the few unhappy hybrid owners reports like a parade. I have personally offered my assistance to the media, as others have as well. The only single time I heard any of us interviewed was someone at that "green" site who was getting low 50's, and when the report came out he was embarrassed and made an apology to that community....because the reporter/editor completely twisted what he said around to a negative.

aaron_t · October 2005

That's an easy calculation, 27.7 minutes to travel 30 miles at 65mpg vs. 24 minutes at 75mph. However, my commute involves many other factors, like (mis-)timing of traffic lights on surface streets and traffic surges as certain business' quitting time hits. My driving style yields more than 3.5 minutes improvement on average with 35mile commute vs. following some other the optimised fuel economy tips. The longest stretch where I can maintain a constant speed would be two 4-mile sections.

Time vs. money, I guess I'm rich.

falconone · October 2005

If you're rich, why not hire a driver to take you to work? Most people here don't believe hybrids are the magic bullet. I believe that eventually their "premium" will diminish. I conducted hours upon hours of research and decided on the Prius. With all the content and mileage and tax credit it was a no brainer. Looking forward to taking delivery in early Jan 06. Can't wait!!!!!

aaron_t · October 2005

I was being sarcastic. I am rich, but that has little to do with money.

gagrice · October 2005

the public keeps getting hammered long enough with "hybrids suck" and they are going to start believing that lie.

The articles I have read did not trash the hybrids or say the suck. They just point out that they do not make good economic sense. The generallty like the concept and encourage the automakers to keep building more hybrids. The bottom line is you have to want that "green" feeling to get into the hybrid mode. Those with long commutes can justify the small hybrids on mileage alone. For the rest it is just technology for the sake of technology. Being the first on the block to have one.

larsb · October 2005

quote arron_t-"Someone or group has convinced the average person that hybrids will save the world, and it isn't the automotive journals I read. There are plenty of examples on Edmunds over estimating the savings or comparing a new hybrid to their current vehicle which is not even close to the same vehicle market (size/content/capability.)"-end quote

If the American Public was convinced that Hybrids can "save the world" as you say, then the hybrid sales numbers would be WAY higher than they are today.

If all the articles would say "Hybrids save you a lot of gas and don't really increase your monthly car payment that much over a comparable gas-only car" then YES, I could see how America would be convinced.

But the articles are NOT saying that, and the fact that hybrids will be less than 3% of total USA sales this year is proof of that lack of education.

That's the Hybrid Advocate's Number One Problem - Lack of true, good information getting out to the American public. Incredibly, people still really do ask "do you have to plug it in?" and "how far can it go?" and "can it go 75 mph?" and stupid questions like that when asking about hybrid cars.

Once the "anti-hybrid" news starts to get countered by SOLID education and the hybrid costs come down, then maybe the public will get informed and get a hybrid as their next vehicle.

Once the Hybrid Camry hits the road in 2007, that will help a LOT because the Camry is the most popular car to get hybridization yet.

larsb · October 2005

"Jackson runs into the same ignorance when he tells people about his Toyota Prius, a hybrid that runs on gas and electricity and gets about 42 miles per gallon. People are always asking if he has to keep the car plugged in when he's not driving or if he's got enough power to get over those steep hills."

More ammo in my ongoing "the public needs to be educated" campaign.

from this story:

http://www.newtimesslo.com/index.php?p=showarticle&id=1398

larsb · October 2005

Downside of buying a hybrid - trying to convince other people to do the same is HARD !!

* 45.2% of those who will purchase a new car will consider a "hybrid"
vehicle, while 38.0% suggest they will not consider the new "hybrids."

More education needed !!

From this story:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/10/20/146055.html

snakeweasel · October 2005

I agree that the Elantra could use a few MPG more but I am pretty satisfied with the 33 MPG that I get on the highway.

You also can't get traction control in an elantra which is important in rain and snow.

Driving mine in the chicago winters I have no problem whatsoever in snow and rain.

Lastly, extremely POOR resale value, though that has improved marginally over the past few years.

Well according to KKB mine is still about 25% of its sticker price for a trade in. However since I almost always drive a car till the wheels fall off resale value is of nothing to me.

Anyways back to the topic at hand, I do not see hybrids as an economical viable alternative in the near future.

snakeweasel · October 2005

All I can say is that it has to be one heck of a detour for me to even come close to needing navagational assistance. i agree that navigation systems are overpriced underused toys, unless its a MAP system.

PF_Flyer · October 2005

We are all over the map here. There are posts that belong in existing topics like the following:

Paying more than MSRP for (new) Hybrids, Depreciation/Value of used Hybrids

What's your reason for buying a Hybrid?
Hybrid Tips: Optimizing Mileage
Hybrid Gas Mileage: Good? Bad? As Expected?

to mention a few.

We simply can't go into everything in detail in this topic. Please try to restrict this one to a general discussion of possible downsides of buying a hybrid.

I'm going to move posts to where they belong, but we need YOUR help in staying on topic.

haefr · October 2005

So, where do you plug them in? Do they require 110 or 220 volts? AC or DC?

falconone · October 2005

Hard to imagine driving in the snow without traction control or stability control. I'd feel WAY uncomfortable. To me, the Prius with the tax credit is the bargain of the century. Can't wait to get mine!!! WOOHOOO!!! Go hybrid!!!

deminin · October 2005

We considered a couple of the hybrids...Prius and Escape, but did not buy. The thing that concerns me is the cost of replacement batteries. True, they are warranted for several years, but at some point, they will have to be replaced. Whoever owns the thing at battery time is going to have to spend more than the car is worth to get new batteries. Very probably, when the batteries finally go out, many of these hybrids will be consigned to salvage...thus negating any fuel cost savings over the life of the car. I would think that the buyer who would get some value out of these would be the person who drives mostly urban areas, and trades cars every 2 or 3 years, and only puts 25 or 30 thousand on it. There will still be enough battery warranty left to bring good resale. However, once the clock goes over 50 thousand miles, the resale will drop like a rock.

michael_mattox · October 2005

Really grasping for something to complain about...IT DOES HAVE TRACTION CONTROL....THEY ALL DO....WHAT IS THE BEEF....DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW SILLY THAT COMPLAINT IN?

michael_mattox · October 2005

Aaron:

I have a GPS in both my Lexus and Prius...I will never buy another car without that feature...I like to go to different Golf cources in my region...I often travel to different cities with the Mrs....I like to go to new or different Resturants in my area...My wife and I enjoy going to garden shows and Garden tours...We live near a big city and because we do not go there real often once had trouble finding places...

We are all different and different needs and wants...I use my nav. in all the above circumstances ...If I just drove to work on the freeway and never went anyplace that was new or different....I wouldn't need a NAV. system either.

I Know I didn't think I needed one until I had one, until I actually used it and knew something about it's features and there are many other then just a Map quest type route.

michael_mattox · October 2005

GAG:

As a point of interest....The Toyota Nav. is concidered the easist to use, it is very intutative and straight foreward.

The German systems require different CDs for Each different region of the country, I think they have 10 regions...Perhaps you can tell us what each of those CDs cost..Not to mention the Pain of storing them and having to fiddle with them when ever you leave that region

The Toyota/Lexus Nav. system has one CD for the entire U.S. and Canada.

I don't want to carry some hand held thing around with me...I assure you it doesn't have the features of my Nav.

kdhspyder · October 2005

Huh?.. I didnt get your point here.. was it misdircted? There was no beef or complaint stated or implied.

michael_mattox · October 2005

AAron:

People survived for a long time without ABS breaks...In Europe Stability Control is mandated in all cars and is concidered as important an advance in safety as seatbelts and ABS brakes.

michael_mattox · October 2005

AARON:

And yet...Nobody on this board has said the Hybrid will save the world...Hmmm if someone has convinced us of that, why isn't anyone saying it?...Perhaps you can explain that to us.

michael_mattox · October 2005

I don't know what kind of milage the First Generation Prius gets...Maybe it does get on 42 MPG...My 05 Prius is getting 52 ....in mixed driving...It has about 6000 miles on it and I know it takes some time to fully break it in...On a recient trip to seem my Daughter 200 mi. round trip 80% freeway I got 55...where I had been getting 52...(I am saying I when the truth is My wife usually drives the car)

First you put up the Aussi post where you claimed the batteries cost 5000 and again mention the 42 mpg...The Fact was that was a 03 Aritcle ...and the Aussi Dollar was about 1/2 the value of our dollar...

falconone · October 2005

You should read through the threads as your post is similar to hundreds of others. Let me ask you a question? Would you consider a Jeep Grand Cherokee salvage at 100k miles if it needed a transmission? Your analysis does not make any sense. That will set you back 4 grand or so. I've also seen transmissions fail in Mercedes too. You have NO idea what that will set you back. I'd take my chances with my battery pack and the 150k warranty.

rorr · October 2005

"So, where do you plug them in? Do they require 110 or 220 volts? AC or DC?"

You DON'T plug hybrids in - that's why larsb considered the question to be 'stupid'. Perhaps 'ignorant' would be a better choice of words. All of the electrical energy used by hybrids is ultimately provided by the gas engine (batteries are either recharged directly by the engine or by regenerative braking). Hybrids are NOT plugged in.

You drive a hybrid right up to the gas pumps and put gas in it, same as everything else. The difference is you do it less frequently.

However, apparently some folks are modifying hybrids by adding additional batteries, a means to plug them in for recharging off of a household current, and changing the vehicle's software to allow for much more running on the batteries alone. These modified cars are called 'plug-in hybrids' and they offer the attractive theory that one could drive the car as a pure-electric car, using VERY little gas, for short around town trips, and then use the gas engine for longer trips (or when additional motivation is desired). I don't know how well these modified cars actually work in the real world.

gagrice · October 2005

Would you consider a Jeep Grand Cherokee salvage at 100k miles if it needed a transmission?

I would put in a rebuilt transmission for about $1200 and keep on going. Two things with the Prius battery. First the $2600 + price. Second I cannot find anything on the Toyota website about the hybrid warranty being transferable. It is not just the battery you have to worry about after 100k miles. There are thousands of dollars worth of specialized electronics, sensors and computer modules. All those parts you can only get from Toyota or some wrecking yard. People are smart to be skeptical. Taking a wait and see attitude is the wise position on hybrids.

ddenzin · October 2005

I BOUGHT A 2005 CHEVY HYBRID TRUCK.
AND IT ONLY GETS 15 MPG IN TOWN AND 17 ON THE HI WAY.
CHEVY SAYS THERE IS NOTHING WRONG HA,HA,AND I JUST GOT A LOANER FROM THE DEALER 1/2 TON 4 DOOR AND ITS GETTING 19.8 MPH . CHEVY WILL NOT HELP ME CAN SOME ONE. :mad:

larsb · October 2005

quote deminin-"However, once the clock goes over 50 thousand miles, the resale will drop like a rock."-end quote

That's absolutely not true. Surf on over to AutoTrader.com and search used Prius cars.

2001, 61,000 miles, $16K
2002, 74,000 miles, $15.9K
2001, 74,000 miles, 14.9K
2003, 81,800 miles, 14.9K
2001, 83,000 miles, 13.5K

GOOD CARS hold their resale value, nothing else is considered. Maybe some of the "anal worry wart" people will avoid used Priuses because of some perceived battery replacement issue, but it will not hurt resale value as a whole.

Mark my words Folks.........:D

falconone · October 2005

That's not even a hybrid. It's as much as hybrid as a 1990 Toyota Tercel. It's a chevy pickup with a big battery. Anyone that bought one got ripped off because their mileage gains are nil.

falconone · October 2005

There will be many salvaged Prius as time wears on. You already see them on ebay. I'd be more concerned about a GC transmission than I would about a hybrid traction battery. Anyone read about Ford trying to kill their hybrid battery? They couldn't!!! GO HYBRID!!! Anxiously awaiting mine!!!!

beantown · October 2005

Anyone who's paying those autotrader numbers (around $15K or more for a 1st gen Prius with 60-80K miles) is on crack. You can get a brand new Corolla that is basically twice the size, with 10 times the options/refinement/ride quality/overall comfort for the same price. And a new Corolla gets similar gas mileage and runs essentially just as clean as a used first generation Prius.

larsb · October 2005

quote beantown-"And a new Corolla gets similar gas mileage and runs essentially just as clean as a used first generation Prius.-end quote"

Not correct sir.

From Tailpipe Tally:

2004 TOYOTA COROLLA
(33.8 mpg, BIN 9)
12,500 miles/year 370 gal $714
7172 lb carbon dioxide
307.3 lb carbon monoxide
15.4 lb nitrogen oxide
7.0 lb hydrocarbons
2002 TOYOTA PRIUS
(48.6 mpg, SULEV)
12,500 miles/year 257 gal $496
4990 lb carbon dioxide
79.9 lb carbon monoxide
0.8 lb nitrogen oxide
0.8 lb hydrocarbons

The Corolla is vastly dirtier than the Gen 1 Prius, and gets almost 15 MPG less.

falconone · October 2005

YOU ARE the man!!! Great information!!!

beantown · October 2005

larsb:

Good luck getting 50 mpg in a used Gen 1 Prius. Not gonna happen unless you wussy foot it to the extreme (in which case, if you drive comparably in a Corolla, you can average almost 40 mpg).

As far as emissions go, try taking a measurement on one of those used Gen 1s given the mileage numbers above and see if those numbers hold true after 5 years of use. I highly doubt it.

larsb · October 2005

I know of several Gen 1 Prius owners getting 50+ MPG, and many more getting more than 46 MPG lifetime.

Enlighten me on the "Hybrids get dirtier are the years go by" situation....Why would you think that?

beantown · October 2005

For every person with a high MPG report there is at least one person struggling to get low 40s consistently....not to mention the mileage of those in the north, who take a huge hit during the winters (or those in the extreme south whose A/C kills their numbers half the year), and those who generally only drive less than 10 miles for most trips. Sure, these extremes hurt all gas cars too, but the impact is not nearly as severe ratio-wise.

Don't all cars emit more over time? You think it's just a coincidence that older cars fail emissions tests more than new cars? Nothing can keep 100% efficiency forever. That's just common sense.

falconone · October 2005

I've driven the Prius during the winter on an extended weekend test drive. I got around 45 or so in mixed driving. It was very pleased since it was 25 degrees that weekend. I'm getting quite anxious about my January delivery. WOO HOOO!

larsb · October 2005

The "cars get dirtier over time" thing is true, but with modern engines, it has been reduced quite a bit. It's not nearly the problem it was 10 or 20 years ago.

Also:

If you are starting at a very clean emission baseline and comparing it to another car which is considerable dirtier, as in our previous Corolla versus Gen 1 Prius example, then you are doing no worse over time by driving the hybrid when you compare it to the car which starts out dirtier to begin with.

In other words, if Car A is rated 9 on EPA, and Car B is rated 6 on EPA the year they both come out, then there is logical reason to believe that throughout the life of the cars, Car A is always going to remain 3 ticks cleaner than Car B, regardless.

beantown · October 2005

"In other words, if Car A is rated 9 on EPA, and Car B is rated 6 on EPA the year they both come out, then there is logical reason to believe that throughout the life of the cars, Car A is always going to remain 3 ticks cleaner than Car B, regardless. "

but my comparison was between purchasing a '01 Prius and '06 Corolla (the original scenario). How many ticks has the Prius "lost" before the Corolla even got started? I think the difference gets narrowed enough that the environment would hardly notice.

larsb · October 2005

All we can really do is estimate, but even if the diff is small after 5 years, every little bit helps. Extra pollution is extra pollution, whether it's 5 tons or 10 tons.

One of my goals is to help all I can.....

Back soon with the 2006 EPA figures for the 2006 Corolla....:)

michael_mattox · October 2005

BEAN

Actually the people saying they get 50 plus MPG are Hybrid OWNERS...

The one's saying otherwise don't own a New Generation Hybrid....

larsb · October 2005

The cleanest automatic tranny 2006 Corolla scores a 6 for Air Pollution and a 7 for Greenhouse gases, with 5.7 tons of emissions.

The 2001 Prius was rated 9 Air Pollution and 9 Greenhouse gases, 4.0 tons of emissions per year.

That's a BIG headstart for the Prius !!

michael_mattox · October 2005

And it is even better today.

kdhspyder · October 2005

Like all Toyota OEM warranties it goes with the vehicle not the original owner.

gagrice · October 2005

Like all Toyota OEM warranties it goes with the vehicle not the original owner.

Are you sure? I was told by a Toyota sales person that only the 3yr 36K mile warranty & extra purchased warranties were transferable. The drivetrain warranty was not transferred. He was not sure about the hybrid warranty. On a Toyota certified used car they do not include the traction battery in the covered components. Buying a used Prius is a real crap shoot.

HYBRID COMPONENTS
Case and all internal parts, transaxle mounts, seals + gaskets.
Hybrid vehicle Generator Assembly
Hybrid vehicle Motor Assembly
Hybrid vehicle Transaxle Assembly
Transmission Damper Assembly

http://www.toyota.com/html/tcuv/warranty.html

rroyce10 · October 2005

.... **For every person with a high MPG report there is at least one person struggling to get low 40s consistently.... not to mention the mileage of those in the north, who take a huge hit during the winters (or those in the extreme south whose A/C kills their numbers half the year), .....**

Bingo..! ... you hit the nail right on the head .. I've seen hundreds of these things traded, and you're right .. in the winter they're lucky to see the mid/tall 30's .. down here in the south with the tempatures being 85+ for 9 months of the year it's the same thing ....

Why do you keep debating with these guys.? ... they sound like one of my golfing buddies that always trying to tell me he can drive a ball 300 yds with his new McGregor club when he hasn't passed the 250 yard marker since he's had it ............ you must have the patience of a Saint trying to convince them with any facts ..l..o..l....

Terry.

falconone · October 2005

I have no need for a pickup truck in an urban area. Let's not even start on the content because it has none. As far as safety...score one for the Prius. Yup....it's SAFER than a GMC Sierra. Have a look at NHTSA site and you'll see. Heck, if that thing was $7k I wouldn't buy it. It even does MARGINAL in the frontal offset tests.

Here are some Prius results:

http://www.newstreet.it/article_id_627_Toyota-Prius-Crash-Test.html

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/vehicle-safety/ancap/toyota/prius-2004.html

ADVANTAGE: PRIUS

kdhspyder · October 2005

>I've seen hundreds of these things traded,..????

Maybe a slight exageration? Did you get your first tradein begining in 99 or 2000? Heck we dont get hundreds of Camry's in two years at a Toyota store.

Were they traded at a Chevy or Honda store?

rroyce10 · October 2005

... **Heck we dont get hundreds of Camry's in two years at a Toyota store ...**

that's what happens when you live in a small aquarium .........

Terry

gagrice · October 2005

seen hundreds of these things traded, and you're right

Question. Are the high mileage First Generation Prius still bringing the premium prices? I saw a loaded 2002 Prius with 92k miles sell for $9k.

Any downside to buying a hybrid?

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