I am one of the few that is certified by Michelin to service the PAX tire system. I no longer work in the tire store that I managed for 14 years. as of 11/06/2006 most honda dealers can only sell a hat box tire & wheel assembly. cost aprox $600.00 each. A Pax Authorized Michelin dealer has no set pricing from Michelin. My selling price on 11/01/2006 was as follows LX4 tire $186.00 gel kit $16.00 dismount & mount $60.00 balance $10.00. If a road hazard happens in the first 50% of tread or 2 years Honda dealers should replace the complete PAX system at no charge. A nail repair at an PAX tire authorized dealer should cost aprox. $100.00. 1.5 hours to dismount system, clean inside of tire, wheel & support ring of old gel. repair nail hole with a RMA approved internal plug & patch. install new gel kit. remount & ballance tire. hope this helps some.
Thank you very much for this information. Isnt it odd that Michelin provides its dealers with no set price information? Bottom line, to replace just the tire (with all the add ons) is around $300 including tax. This for a tire that lasts around 20,000 miles!! In your experience do you have many customers switching over from PAX to standard tires/rims? And do you know anything about the rollout of the special tire changing equipment to other Michelin dealers? Dealers I've talked to say they wont invest in it due to low volume. Thanks for your help!
I just replaced 3 PAX tires on my 2005 Odyssey. They had 37.5K miles on them and been rotated and balanced on a regular basis. The only Discount Tire in Phx that installs the PAX system charged me approx $800 to install the three tires. The dealer wanted over $1,000 and was telling me that that price might be low given that they may not be able to accept one or two of my existing rims due to slight damage. Evidently, the Honda dealer simply swaps the rims and can't send damaged (even slightly damaged) rims back to Michelin. I doubt I'll ever go this way since I don't see how I'll get to 400K (my goal for the van) without damaging the rims.
On Monday night I was at my selling Honda store and, lo and behold, they had just acquired a PAX tire mounting machine. It's so new that they hadn't yet used it to service any customer. This was surprising as it is, I believe, a medium volume store. My guess is that it is probably third (out of four) in sales in Franklin County (Columbus), Ohio.
I can't help but think that as more stores get the equipment, PAX replacement prices will drop.
I am interested in buying a Touring model, and wanted to know Honda's stance on this PAX concern by it's customers.
The response was: The only thing that I know for certain is that all Honda dealers are supposed to have the needed equipment to make repairs by January 1st.
We'll see if this holds true. Not sure if he meant the dealers in my area, or nationwide.
Parts guy at the dealer I was at today said all Honda dealers had to have these by year end. That still doesn't cover nights and week ends, but as good as Honda could do. Now if the tire dealers join in it would make a bigger yet difference. At least Honda is picking up their end of the situation.
Service magr at my honda dealer said they just received the PAX tire changing equipment--but were not yet trained on it. Hopefully that happens soon. He also said the price for a PAX tire (just the tire not the wheel) was $198--and said tire wear varies greatly from 18000 miles to 55000 miles--heaven knows why.
I got a flat (road Hazard)on Thanksgiving eve while on interstate travel. I drove 45 miles at 50mph, costing me 10-15 minutes of extra travel and some PO drivers behind me. Honda replaced the wheel/tire for free in less than 1/2 hour after I found the right dealership (another 1/2 hour). I would have rather replaced my own flat, but with no charge, I'm not complaining. It's not going to be fun when I have to pay for this service though. Michilin outlets were not prepared to help and warranty would have been a hassle had Michelin replaced the flat. If you don't mind paying the bucks, these things (Pax) aren't so bad.
There are rumors that the next Accord will offer PAX tires. The new model is slated for MY 2008. If Honda dealers will all be equipped with PAX changing equipment, Acura dealers must be next since the RL currently offers PAX as an option. Perhaps the next generation TSX and TL (also 2008) will also offer PAX.
I bought my PAX tires at the Discount Tire at 1824 E. Camelback Road in Phx. The phone is 602.277.0039. After calling around and checking the Michelin web site, I found that they are the only retail tire shop in the Valley handling the PAX system. Good luck.
I'm about to replace the PAX tires on my 05 touring. It has only 21,000 miles and two of the tires are worn, two are ok. With the help of Discount Tire, I was able to get Michelin to step up offer the replacement tires at a steep discount. In fact, the total cost to replace all four tires is about the same as replacing w/conventional tires. Honda had nothing to do with this and were generally not very helpful.
I would suggest you rotate the new PAX tires regularly and you may want to have the alignment checked as well. Sounds like the last owner didn't treat the tires very well or liked to do burnouts on sandpaper roads.
I'm in the midwest,have 11K on the '06 Touring, and all is well. I see no reason why they won't go 40,000 miles at this rate. Maybe different climates(hot) are problamatic with the PAX tire compound. For what it's worth, I'm running 35psi front and 37psi rear and the ride is still good.
I like the content in the Odyssey touring, but it is absolutely criminal that Honda mandated a tire package with the van that wears poorly, costs a fortune to replace, and limits you to tire choices if you can even find somewhere to work on the damn things!?!?! :sick: :mad:
On my previous post I listed a link to Entire Solutions that make the TPMS. Here is another link that might be better in that the previous one was for a pdf file. I too am planning to replace my PAX tires and wheels when I find the best alternative.
I went to the dealer to check out the 07 touring model.. and the compartment that houses the spare tire in the EX-L and other models is in the touring model.. but just empty.
This means.. you could buy a spare and just put it in there. Yes, this voids your tire warranty if you use it.. but at least you don't have the problem of being stranded somewhere.
This also doesn't solve the tires wearing out faster.. but for those considering a touring model, i think the $40 spare tire is worth the peace of mind if you can't find a PAX dealer around, or if your stuck on a weekend/holiday.
The purpose of the PAX system is NOT to leave you stranded somewhere. If you can't get help in 125-150 miles then that's a bigger issue. I would never run a doughnut on the Touring model. For me, the PAX system IS peace of mind.
If you really need a "spare" on a long trip just buy an extra PAX or two and throw them in the back! Maybe bring along some 5 gallon gas cans in case the gas stations are closed as well. Fact of the matter is, some of you worry too much about nothing and maybe you should start flying and renting cars on longer trips. :surprise:
I agree. However, purchasing the spare is harder than one might think. They have been on backorder (through the dealer or Tirerack) for more than a year. This is in spite of the fact that new EX-L’s continue to roll off the assembly line with them every day. If anybody knows of a resource for purchasing the spare, please share the info.
My thinking was just like yours before having a PAX flat. I also believed the advertising hype. If your flat PAX comes off the rim in under two miles, yes they will send a flatbed to come pick you up. Do you know how long is takes to get a flat bed to you when stuck in the middle of nowhere (and the middle of the night in my case)? Several people stopped by to help (thankfully). No one could believe a new car would be sold without a spare. I said, "It didn’t need one" then laughed along with them what else could I do?
Your occurance is very unfortunate I agree, but I know that serious issues can happen with the PAX system just like any other tire/wheel combo. Stories like yours are rare and I am sorry it happened to you. Having the PAX system on our Odyssey lets my wife at least get off of a major highway and somewhere safe until help does arrive. Quite frankly, I am not as concerned about how long it takes to get help, but I don't want her and my children sitting on a busy tollway and attempting to stick a doughnut(her or a helpful citizen) on the van. Run flats aren't for everyone.
If the space is there for a spare tire, why not put one in there?
Buying an extra PAX tire would take up valuable space in the trunk area.
As I said.. it would be for a back up case anyways. In case you can't get to a PAX service center, or it's a holiday/weekend, whatever.
From my point of you.. you'd be getting the best of both worlds. You can drive if you need to get to a safe spot. And if you can't find a replacement tire.. throw the spare on to get you home, and worry replacing it later.
Does anyone know.. on the 05/06 Touring models was the spare tire compartment there and empty?
Yes, the spare tire compartment is empty because Honda does not want you running a doughnut with the PAX system. There are several reasons why. You should speak directly to Honda about why this isn't a very good idea. I know you think the option of having a doughnut spare is a good one, but unfortunately the manufacturer of the vehicle says no. I agree with them and my compartment will stay empty.
If you have ever read the warning labels attached to the space-saver spare (doughnut) you would wonder why you should even bolt it up to your vehicle! These are designed to get your car to service pretty immediately and not drive around town. The manufacturers clearly don't want you driving around on them for long. Obviously, the difference in running around on a PAX Michelin system(or any run flat) is the fact that you do not have to change a tire on a busy highway or 20 below zero winter day. In most cases you can drive the PAX tire up to 125 miles at 50 mph to find help(or get closer to it...if you are in a remote area.)
From what I know the Touring has a larger front sway bar as well as special steering dampners for the PAX setup. Most automotive reviewers refer to the suspension on the Touring as "stiffer suspension". Just exactly what does this all mean, I'm not sure, but suffice to say it is different than it's EX sisters.
"The purpose of the PAX system is NOT to leave you stranded somewhere. If you can't get help in 125-150 miles then that's a bigger issue."
Yes - it's a very big issue. That's why I've bought a doughnut.
"I would never run a doughnut on the Touring model."
I would, rather than sit somewhere when my 150 miles or less on a flat PAX has been used up.
"If you really need a "spare" on a long trip just buy an extra PAX or two and throw them in the back!"
No thanks. You spend $1,200 and use up your rear space for spares. I'll spend $150 and use the space provided, thank you.
"Having the PAX system on our Odyssey lets my wife at least get off of a major highway and somewhere safe until help does arrive. Quite frankly, I am not as concerned about how long it takes to get help, but I don't want her and my children sitting on a busy tollway and attempting to stick a doughnut(her or a helpful citizen) on the van."
Agreed, having a run-flat tire will get one to safety. And once in a safe place, and the useful mileage consumed, off it comes and off I go. I am concerned about being stranded, even when it's someplace that's relatively safe.
"These are designed to get your car to service pretty immediately and not drive around town. The manufacturers clearly don't want you driving around on them for long."
Agreed again. I don't want to run on either a doughnut or a flat PAX any longer than necessary. But when it does become necessary, PAX and a doughnut will get you further than PAX alone.
i was merely going to make the point that it would be hard to convince someone they couldn't drive on a donut with 3 PAX tires cautiously, if the PAX failed and couldn't be driven on. if it's got additional anti-sway rigidity or other stiffness, i don't think that precludes using a donut.
FWIW: since my family and i live in Atlanta, i've told my wife if she has a tire fail, to go ahead and drive the van slowly until she's off the highway and preferrably to someplace where i could mount another tire. i don't care if the tire that fails is ruined in the process, or for that matter, the rim. better to have her and my children off 285, 85, 75, 400 (insert busy highway of preference)...
hey - we drive an LX...i gave up alloy rims decades ago.
i hear what you're saying, but i think there are those who know it's possible for a PAX failure to leave the tire unusable because of structural damage. now to do much good, you'd have to know how to put on a spare (if you had one) or have a service that would do it for you. but you could get to someplace that could get the tire replaced.
does Honda or Michelin pay for towing if the PAX fails such that it can't be driven on?
i personally see no contradiction in having PAX or other RFTs and a spare... i trust there are numerous toyota van owners with RFTs that wish they had a place to carry a spare without sacrificing interior space or flexibility.
Jeff, Maybe you should get two doughnuts in case you blow out the first one on the way to help.
Hey, you are prepared I will admit that and must have made a good Boy Scout!
Like I said, Run Flats aren't for everyone and unfortunately the Touring model has too many other great standard features that make it a relative bargain and to not consider purchasing one because of the PAX system is a shame. Buy a space saver doughnut and load it up with candy bars, gas containers and extra water or whatever... It is a terrific vehicle
There has been a lot of bashing of the PAX system and its usage on the Honda Odyssey. We own a 2005 Touring, and thought the PAX feature was a selling point and worth the money. Of course, I also thought that a premium tire package would also correspond to premium mileage at an appropriate cost. Then after discovering these forums, my glee turned into concern. However, after what happened two Friday's ago, I know that the PAX package is the only way to fly.
Setup: driving home on highway after taking kids to see Santa, Friday evening at 6:30PM, driving rain storm, high winds. In passing lane, traveling at 45 MPH in a 55 MPH zone (due to low visibility). Anyway, all that I remember was seeing an object, and then we ran it over with both right side tires (either a chuck of concrete or 2x4).
Within a few hundred feet the first of seven vehicles had fallen prey, and were lined up on the shoulder with flat tires. This caused great concern and I pulled up the tire pressure readings, and was relieved to see all was fine. This glee was short lived, as within a mile both right side pressures were falling. At about 20 PSI, the first formal alert was issued, check air pressure in right rear, a few minutes later the same alert was issued for the right front. We took the next exit and stopped under a bridge for visual inspection. All looked OK, so we decided to continue home with great caution.
By this time the right rear was flat, and the appropriate PAX Running alert communicated, followed by the right front. Anyway, we drove it home at 45 MPH (didn't want to go for 50), drove OK, but rode like a train on rails. Anyway, it got us home, as we would have been waiting for a tow truck, since no car has two spares!
Now this is where you need to be prepared - who in their right mind would ever purchase replacement tires from Honda or any other dealer? Sounds like easy profit to me. No way - you probably have a relationship with a tire place - we use a large chain by the name of CJ' Tire. I also had done research prior and knew that they indeed were able to service PAX tires. Saturday morning I called first thing and they said to bring it in.
At first, they were unsure if they could fix the punctures, but said they would give it a try at $35 a piece (special kit). Else, a new tire would cost $192 plus a $30 per tire installation fee. I prepared myself for a $500 bill. About an hour later, with all employees participating in the in-promptu training, a bill was issued for $63 total. It was later stated that all the local Honda dealers send their PAX tires, and receive their PAX tires from them.
OK, so this happened close to home, and I only had to drive about 40 miles on two flat tires. Honestly, if I had been away from home, I would have gone to the nearest Honda dealer and been happy to pay much more. But most issues probably will occur within 150 miles of home. We are now more resolved in our decision to purchase the Touring, and our next vehicle will have a requirement for some type of run flat system. The only lasting concern is the tire wear, we will probably only get about 32,000 miles and at a full cost of $941 to replace (4 at $192, 4 at $30, and tax), this is still high. But I doubt that you could replace 4 EX-L tires for under $600 anyway (having just paid $550 for 4 tires on a Pontiac Vibe).
Nice story - but I'm not so sure that the 'concerns' being voiced here are necessarily anti-RFT's.
Personally, my biggest gripe with the PAX system is the fact that it is proprietary; not that it is a run-flat. With standard size RFT's, IF I get a flat, I don't HAVE to replace it with another RFT. In a pinch, they can be replaced with a standard tire if necessary and I can be on my way.
However, with the PAX system, it's either PAX or zip. Your story had a nice, happy ending ONLY because your local store had the capability to de-mount and fix the PAX tires. Would you be so lucky the next time? (Particularly if you were on vacation).
Ask yourself this question: what if you had been away from that (rare) tire dealer able to deal with the PAX setup? Was it REALLY necessary for Michelin to develop a PAX tire on a non-standard rim; a rim which will NOT accept a standard tire? How much nicer might it be if after your episode you at least had the OPTION to replace your RFT's with standard tires if the local store had no PAX tires in stock......
ok - here would be my concern; first off you hit something pretty hard. what was the failure, a puncture? did they provide that information on the bill? i'd be sort of concerned about the type of "patch" / "fix" applied to this type of tire. did they tell you exactly what they did to them to fix them?
did you damage the rims at all? did you visually inspect/check them?
Yes the PAX system is unique, however other RFTs will de-rim in an emergency maneuver or tight corner. Michelins technology will not do this. If you hit that concrete in two years or less they will warranty the tires with new ones. I am approaching 40,000 miles on my original PAX tires. I think people are getting Toyotas early tire wear issue confused with PAX. PAX did have some "false" early tire wear with some lateral tread wear on the outside edges but they issued a bulletin to the dealers to stop them from doing replacements for these. PAX tires are not $600 apiece. About $200. There are hundreds of parts on our vehicles that you can't get from any place other than a dealer that could fail and need replacing at a dealer. Just consider tires like seat belts or air bags or crash sensors.
There was a small puncture in the right front, and a larger almost slice in the right rear (about 1/4 inch). Both punctures where in about the center of the tire. They did not provide that information on the bill for several reasons (1. I don't know if they ever provide that detail; 2. I had already found the issues at home; 3. I was present in the garage during the entire repair procedure for both tires).
I was really surprised that they were able to fix the right rear, but thought for 35 vs. 192, what the heck. They used a special PAX repair kit from Michelin. It was in a triangular box, with some type of slime and different patch devices.
It was a long process, and they worked for hard for the modest fee. 1. Took tire off van. 2. Used a special machine to break the bead. 3. Another device to fully remove the tire from the rim. 4. Then they inserted a special jack device in the tire to stretch it enough to remove the kevlar inner circle device that the car settles onto. 5. Repaired the tire. 6. Cleaned and inspected the kevlar ring 7. Not sure what they did with the slime, I guess this is some type of sealant or lubricant for the kevlar ring 8. Reverse jack procedure. 9. Used special machine to remount tire to rim, had to use nitrogen to help seat the tire. 10. Balanced tire.
There was no damage to the rims in any way. One other nice thing about this setup, the rubber extends farther out than wheels, this allows the wife can curb check at will and not cause any wheel damage. Not sure if this was the intention, or design, or a way to help ensure less damage occurs to wheels, so that dealers can swap out entire assemblies.
Honestly, if this happened away from home. First destination would have been a Honda dealer. If they were unable to assist or closed, then I would pull out the hand held and had gone to the internet or called Michelin. At this point, your bad day is already a disaster.
At least my family was safe, the van remained in complete control and retained its driving characteristics until the tires were completely flat. Even then it drove OK, but the ride and noise level suffered. I wasn't on the side of a major highway in very poor conditions trying to change one tire only to find the other tire toast as well. I think that is what this is all about, the PAX system gave me a plan B (drive for help) vs. call for help.
I still had a usable vehicle, could have driven to a Honda dealer, other tire dealer, hotel, food, etc... vs. being at the mercy of a tow truck operator.
Was it necessary for Michelin to use non-standard rims, probably not. Would it be nice to put on another brand tire at my discretion - Yes. Clearly the roll-out strategy was flawed, and the price points high.
Thanks very much for providing such a detailed description of the repair process.
I don't understand your last paragraph, however. The biggest complaint I have about PAX is that there is LESS sidewall "bulge" than with a conventional tire, making "curbing" far more likely to result in rim damage.
Yes the PAX system is unique, however other RFTs will de-rim in an emergency maneuver or tight corner. Michelins technology will not do this."
You've got to be kidding. Did you make that up? If you didn't, who told you to say that?
While I'm no fan of RTFs (quite to the contrary) I've been following the whole RFT thing for several years now and I've yet to see one credible shred of evidence to suggest that your statement above is anything other than so much bilge water. Michelin's lame attempt to force the non-standard and limited availablity PAX system down the throat of the unsuspecting public is no better then their still-born TRX system of a couple decades ago. No thanks.
From my perspective, we are most likely going to be needing to replace one of our two current high mileage minivans in the next year or two. As it sits now, there is no way in hell any van with the PAX system will be on our shopping list.
ok, sounds like you were on top of the whole process. a very good description of what was done as another person mentioned! i think that will be helpful to other PAX owners and potential buyers.
if they inspected the rings and all was good and there was no damage to the rims, i think i too would be confident in the repair, specially since they used a special michelin repair kit.
that green slime has me bothered though... sounds like an X-files episode. :shades:
"There has been a lot of bashing of the PAX system and its usage on the Honda Odyssey."
In case there's been any misunderstanding, I'm not bashing the PAX system or it's use on the Odyssey, but what does concern me is the lack of infrastructure to support the PAX system.
"we use a large chain by the name of CJ' Tire. I also had done research prior and knew that they indeed were able to service PAX tires."
I've done my research as well, and what I've found out is that the one (1) tire dealer and two (2) Honda dealers in my area that Michelin identifies as being able to service the PAX system are not, in fact, able to service it. The Honda dealers can supply only a complete new rim and tire assembly with no 'core' allowance for the old rim.
You may be able to replace a set of PAX tires for $941, but it will cost me $2544 including sales tax.
The reality is, the PAX system will either die a slow death due to "lack of infrastructure" and consumer backlash, or it will continue to expand and evolve through increased acceptance and availability. There must be thousands of MY2005 Odyssey Tourings needing new tires all across the country, right? $200 a tire (as my own dealer promises) is sustainable, but $2544 for 4(according to JEff) will send many consumers to speed dial their nearest class action lawyer and/or cardiac surgeon.
In spite of the diverse opinions on these boards, I assume we can all agree that the status quo is not sustainable and PAX will obviously evolve. All Honda (and Acura?) dealers are reportedly installing PAX equipment as of the first of the year. Incrementally, independent tire dealers will or will not sign on.
We shall see if (1) Michelin, Honda, Nissan, Acura, and other brands continue to expand availability of PAX to additional mainstream models, (2) other tire makers adopt the technology and offer alternatives beyond Michelin, and (3) consumer acceptance trends in a favorable or otherwise direction.
Comparisons to the TRX debacle are premature, incendiary and presumptuous, since the PAX rollout is of a different scale entirely. Several mainstream manufacturers with deep pockets are offering PAX as OEM equipment. If Honda decides to equip MY 2008 Accords with PAX, we are talking about a significant expansion, availability, and investment beyond what's out there today.
Let's at least agree that things will look very different for PAX in 6...12....18 months. Sweeping statements about lack of infrastructure or even lack of consumer choice may be premature. Time will tell if shipo is correct about PAX being one big consumer scam.
"Comparisons to the TRX debacle is premature, incendiary and presumptuous, since the PAX rollout is of a different scale entirely. Several mainstream manufacturers with deep pockets are offering PAX as OEM equipment."
Hmmm, "premature"? Maybe. "Incendiary and presumptuous"? I don't think I'd go quite that far. Why? Well, I know for a fact that Ford (including Lincoln and Mercury) used the TRX system on several models as did BMW (all models), Renault, Ferrari, Saab, Alpha Romeo and Peugeot. TRX tires were standard equipment on cars starting in 1975 (IIRC) and the last manufacturer stopped using them in the early 1990s (Renault if I'm not mistaken). During the nearly twenty years of OEM usage of the TRX system there were literally millions of cars produced with those tires and yet, the system and concept still died. For those unfortunate enough to have classic cars that require TRX tires (say a 1988 BMW M6 for instance), new tires can still be had from some specialty tire shops in (primarily in Europe), however, when available, they usually cost upwards of $700 per tire. Ouch.
Only time will tell if the PAX system follows the model set forth by the TRX system, and I'm willing to accept that my prediction of its untimely demise might could well be premature. That said, I'm betting that it will fail, and as such, I will only shop for cars with conventional GFTs (or conventional RFTs if absolutely necessary).
Now, as for PAX supporters making unsubstantiated claims that conventional RTFs will "derim" due to aggressive maneuvering. That really doesn't help the credibility of other folks who genuinely like the PAX system. Why? Well, if the tire to rim interface was so tenuous with conventional RFTs, why would BMW included them on every 300 HP (independent tests suggest more like 350) twin-turbo 335i? Geez, I can see it now, my friend (fellow TownHaller too) and race driver brave1heart trades up to a 335i, heads out to one of the many tracks that he's been known to frequent, and rolls a tire off the rim. Yeah, that'll win him some races. :P
The fact is that the PAX system, in and of itself, has many positive aspects. However, by forcing adopters to put up with a non-standard rim size and configuration, and then not having a comprehensive infrastructure rolled out before these tires hit the road is not a good thing for the consuming public. I remain the loyal opposition. ;-)
Comments
Krzys
I can't help but think that as more stores get the equipment, PAX replacement prices will drop.
wanted to know Honda's stance on this PAX concern
by it's customers.
The response was:
The only thing that I know for certain is that all Honda dealers are supposed to have the needed equipment to make repairs by January 1st.
We'll see if this holds true. Not sure if he meant
the dealers in my area, or nationwide.
Which Discount Tire in Phoenix did you go to? I need to replace my tires and am not willing to pay dealer prices.
Thanks,
DT
I'm in the midwest,have 11K on the '06 Touring, and all is well. I see no reason why they won't go 40,000 miles at this rate. Maybe different climates(hot) are problamatic with the PAX tire compound. For what it's worth, I'm running 35psi front and 37psi rear and the ride is still good.
DT
If it's just a donut, you have limited driving
capabilities on this spare as well, correct?
this PAX thing is -
http://www.familycar.com/CarCare/RunFlatTires.htm
This article is favorable.. but at least it
explains the technology. If you read the other
posts on this forum you may be able to get
a full picture.
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/tires/articles/117588/article.html
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Totally irresponsible!!!
http://www.entire-solution.com/Entire%20Poster%20August%2017_2006.pdf
http://www.entire-solution.com/ServiceDealerships.htm
model.. and the compartment that houses the spare
tire in the EX-L and other models is in the
touring model.. but just empty.
This means.. you could buy a spare and just put
it in there. Yes, this voids your tire warranty
if you use it.. but at least you don't have
the problem of being stranded somewhere.
This also doesn't solve the tires wearing
out faster.. but for those considering a touring
model, i think the $40 spare tire is worth the
peace of mind if you can't find a PAX dealer around,
or if your stuck on a weekend/holiday.
If you really need a "spare" on a long trip just buy an extra PAX or two and throw them in the back! Maybe bring along some 5 gallon gas cans in case the gas stations are closed as well. Fact of the matter is, some of you worry too much about nothing and maybe you should start flying and renting cars on longer trips. :surprise:
If anybody knows of a resource for purchasing the spare, please share the info.
not put one in there?
Buying an extra PAX tire would take up
valuable space in the trunk area.
As I said.. it would be for a back up case
anyways. In case you can't get to a PAX service
center, or it's a holiday/weekend, whatever.
From my point of you.. you'd be getting the
best of both worlds. You can drive if you need
to get to a safe spot. And if you can't find
a replacement tire.. throw the spare on to get
you home, and worry replacing it later.
Does anyone know.. on the 05/06 Touring models
was the spare tire compartment there and empty?
theoretically, wouldn't a manufacturer discourage running with a tire / rim that was different from the other three on ANY vehicle?
i mean, isn't driving with a donut tire on say a non-PAX vehicle something one should use caution doing (speed / handling / duration)?
so back to my question, do you know if the touring suspension setup differs from the non-touring suspension setup? if so, in what way?
From what I know the Touring has a larger front sway bar as well as special steering dampners for the PAX setup. Most automotive reviewers refer to the suspension on the Touring as "stiffer suspension". Just exactly what does this all mean, I'm not sure, but suffice to say it is different than it's EX sisters.
"The purpose of the PAX system is NOT to leave you stranded somewhere. If you can't get help in 125-150 miles then that's a bigger issue."
Yes - it's a very big issue. That's why I've bought a doughnut.
"I would never run a doughnut on the Touring model."
I would, rather than sit somewhere when my 150 miles or less on a flat PAX has been used up.
"If you really need a "spare" on a long trip just buy an extra PAX or two and throw them in the back!"
No thanks. You spend $1,200 and use up your rear space for spares. I'll spend $150 and use the space provided, thank you.
"Having the PAX system on our Odyssey lets my wife at least get off of a major highway and somewhere safe until help does arrive. Quite frankly, I am not as concerned about how long it takes to get help, but I don't want her and my children sitting on a busy tollway and attempting to stick a doughnut(her or a helpful citizen) on the van."
Agreed, having a run-flat tire will get one to safety. And once in a safe place, and the useful mileage consumed, off it comes and off I go. I am concerned about being stranded, even when it's someplace that's relatively safe.
"These are designed to get your car to service pretty immediately and not drive around town. The manufacturers clearly don't want you driving around on them for long."
Agreed again. I don't want to run on either a doughnut or a flat PAX any longer than necessary. But when it does become necessary, PAX and a doughnut will get you further than PAX alone.
Regards, JEff
FWIW: since my family and i live in Atlanta, i've told my wife if she has a tire fail, to go ahead and drive the van slowly until she's off the highway and preferrably to someplace where i could mount another tire. i don't care if the tire that fails is ruined in the process, or for that matter, the rim. better to have her and my children off 285, 85, 75, 400 (insert busy highway of preference)...
hey - we drive an LX...i gave up alloy rims decades ago.
i hear what you're saying, but i think there are those who know it's possible for a PAX failure to leave the tire unusable because of structural damage. now to do much good, you'd have to know how to put on a spare (if you had one) or have a service that would do it for you. but you could get to someplace that could get the tire replaced.
does Honda or Michelin pay for towing if the PAX fails such that it can't be driven on?
i personally see no contradiction in having PAX or other RFTs and a spare... i trust there are numerous toyota van owners with RFTs that wish they had a place to carry a spare without sacrificing interior space or flexibility.
Hey, you are prepared I will admit that and must have made a good Boy Scout!
Like I said, Run Flats aren't for everyone and unfortunately the Touring model has too many other great standard features that make it a relative bargain and to not consider purchasing one because of the PAX system is a shame. Buy a space saver doughnut and load it up with candy bars, gas containers and extra water or whatever... It is a terrific vehicle
Setup: driving home on highway after taking kids to see Santa, Friday evening at 6:30PM, driving rain storm, high winds. In passing lane, traveling at 45 MPH in a 55 MPH zone (due to low visibility). Anyway, all that I remember was seeing an object, and then we ran it over with both right side tires (either a chuck of concrete or 2x4).
Within a few hundred feet the first of seven vehicles had fallen prey, and were lined up on the shoulder with flat tires. This caused great concern and I pulled up the tire pressure readings, and was relieved to see all was fine. This glee was short lived, as within a mile both right side pressures were falling. At about 20 PSI, the first formal alert was issued, check air pressure in right rear, a few minutes later the same alert was issued for the right front. We took the next exit and stopped under a bridge for visual inspection. All looked OK, so we decided to continue home with great caution.
By this time the right rear was flat, and the appropriate PAX Running alert communicated, followed by the right front. Anyway, we drove it home at 45 MPH (didn't want to go for 50), drove OK, but rode like a train on rails. Anyway, it got us home, as we would have been waiting for a tow truck, since no car has two spares!
Now this is where you need to be prepared - who in their right mind would ever purchase replacement tires from Honda or any other dealer? Sounds like easy profit to me. No way - you probably have a relationship with a tire place - we use a large chain by the name of CJ' Tire. I also had done research prior and knew that they indeed were able to service PAX tires. Saturday morning I called first thing and they said to bring it in.
At first, they were unsure if they could fix the punctures, but said they would give it a try at $35 a piece (special kit). Else, a new tire would cost $192 plus a $30 per tire installation fee. I prepared myself for a $500 bill. About an hour later, with all employees participating in the in-promptu training, a bill was issued for $63 total. It was later stated that all the local Honda dealers send their PAX tires, and receive their PAX tires from them.
OK, so this happened close to home, and I only had to drive about 40 miles on two flat tires. Honestly, if I had been away from home, I would have gone to the nearest Honda dealer and been happy to pay much more. But most issues probably will occur within 150 miles of home. We are now more resolved in our decision to purchase the Touring, and our next vehicle will have a requirement for some type of run flat system. The only lasting concern is the tire wear, we will probably only get about 32,000 miles and at a full cost of $941 to replace (4 at $192, 4 at $30, and tax), this is still high. But I doubt that you could replace 4 EX-L tires for under $600 anyway (having just paid $550 for 4 tires on a Pontiac Vibe).
Personally, my biggest gripe with the PAX system is the fact that it is proprietary; not that it is a run-flat. With standard size RFT's, IF I get a flat, I don't HAVE to replace it with another RFT. In a pinch, they can be replaced with a standard tire if necessary and I can be on my way.
However, with the PAX system, it's either PAX or zip. Your story had a nice, happy ending ONLY because your local store had the capability to de-mount and fix the PAX tires. Would you be so lucky the next time? (Particularly if you were on vacation).
Ask yourself this question: what if you had been away from that (rare) tire dealer able to deal with the PAX setup? Was it REALLY necessary for Michelin to develop a PAX tire on a non-standard rim; a rim which will NOT accept a standard tire? How much nicer might it be if after your episode you at least had the OPTION to replace your RFT's with standard tires if the local store had no PAX tires in stock......
ok - here would be my concern; first off you hit something pretty hard. what was the failure, a puncture? did they provide that information on the bill? i'd be sort of concerned about the type of "patch" / "fix" applied to this type of tire. did they tell you exactly what they did to them to fix them?
did you damage the rims at all? did you visually inspect/check them?
i'd do this checking.
I was really surprised that they were able to fix the right rear, but thought for 35 vs. 192, what the heck. They used a special PAX repair kit from Michelin. It was in a triangular box, with some type of slime and different patch devices.
It was a long process, and they worked for hard for the modest fee.
1. Took tire off van.
2. Used a special machine to break the bead.
3. Another device to fully remove the tire from the rim.
4. Then they inserted a special jack device in the tire to stretch it enough to remove the kevlar inner circle device that the car settles onto.
5. Repaired the tire.
6. Cleaned and inspected the kevlar ring
7. Not sure what they did with the slime, I guess this is some type of sealant or lubricant for the kevlar ring
8. Reverse jack procedure.
9. Used special machine to remount tire to rim, had to use nitrogen to help seat the tire.
10. Balanced tire.
There was no damage to the rims in any way. One other nice thing about this setup, the rubber extends farther out than wheels, this allows the wife can curb check at will and not cause any wheel damage. Not sure if this was the intention, or design, or a way to help ensure less damage occurs to wheels, so that dealers can swap out entire assemblies.
At least my family was safe, the van remained in complete control and retained its driving characteristics until the tires were completely flat. Even then it drove OK, but the ride and noise level suffered. I wasn't on the side of a major highway in very poor conditions trying to change one tire only to find the other tire toast as well. I think that is what this is all about, the PAX system gave me a plan B (drive for help) vs. call for help.
I still had a usable vehicle, could have driven to a Honda dealer, other tire dealer, hotel, food, etc... vs. being at the mercy of a tow truck operator.
Was it necessary for Michelin to use non-standard rims, probably not. Would it be nice to put on another brand tire at my discretion - Yes. Clearly the roll-out strategy was flawed, and the price points high.
I don't understand your last paragraph, however. The biggest complaint I have about PAX is that there is LESS
sidewall "bulge" than with a conventional tire, making "curbing" far more likely to result in rim damage.
You've got to be kidding. Did you make that up? If you didn't, who told you to say that?
While I'm no fan of RTFs (quite to the contrary) I've been following the whole RFT thing for several years now and I've yet to see one credible shred of evidence to suggest that your statement above is anything other than so much bilge water. Michelin's lame attempt to force the non-standard and limited availablity PAX system down the throat of the unsuspecting public is no better then their still-born TRX system of a couple decades ago. No thanks.
From my perspective, we are most likely going to be needing to replace one of our two current high mileage minivans in the next year or two. As it sits now, there is no way in hell any van with the PAX system will be on our shopping list.
IMHO, PAX=consumer scam.
Best Regards,
Shipo
if they inspected the rings and all was good and there was no damage to the rims, i think i too would be confident in the repair, specially since they used a special michelin repair kit.
that green slime has me bothered though... sounds like an X-files episode. :shades:
"Jeff, Maybe you should get two doughnuts in case you blow out the first one on the way to help."
Thanks for the suggestion, but one should do.
Regards, JEff
"There has been a lot of bashing of the PAX system and its usage on the Honda Odyssey."
In case there's been any misunderstanding, I'm not bashing the PAX system or it's use on the Odyssey, but what does concern me is the lack of infrastructure to support the PAX system.
"we use a large chain by the name of CJ' Tire. I also had done research prior and knew that they indeed were able to service PAX tires."
I've done my research as well, and what I've found out is that the one (1) tire dealer and two (2) Honda dealers in my area that Michelin identifies as being able to service the PAX system are not, in fact, able to service it. The Honda dealers can supply only a complete new rim and tire assembly with no 'core' allowance for the old rim.
You may be able to replace a set of PAX tires for $941, but it will cost me $2544 including sales tax.
Regards, JEff
In spite of the diverse opinions on these boards, I assume we can all agree that the status quo is not sustainable and PAX will obviously evolve. All Honda (and Acura?) dealers are reportedly installing PAX equipment as of the first of the year. Incrementally, independent tire dealers will or will not sign on.
We shall see if (1) Michelin, Honda, Nissan, Acura, and other brands continue to expand availability of PAX to additional mainstream models, (2) other tire makers adopt the technology and offer alternatives beyond Michelin, and (3) consumer acceptance trends in a favorable or otherwise direction.
Comparisons to the TRX debacle are premature, incendiary and presumptuous, since the PAX rollout is of a different scale entirely. Several mainstream manufacturers with deep pockets are offering PAX as OEM equipment. If Honda decides to equip MY 2008 Accords with PAX, we are talking about a significant expansion, availability, and investment beyond what's out there today.
Let's at least agree that things will look very different for PAX in 6...12....18 months. Sweeping statements about lack of infrastructure or even lack of consumer choice may be premature. Time will tell if shipo is correct about PAX being one big consumer scam.
Hmmm, "premature"? Maybe. "Incendiary and presumptuous"? I don't think I'd go quite that far. Why? Well, I know for a fact that Ford (including Lincoln and Mercury) used the TRX system on several models as did BMW (all models), Renault, Ferrari, Saab, Alpha Romeo and Peugeot. TRX tires were standard equipment on cars starting in 1975 (IIRC) and the last manufacturer stopped using them in the early 1990s (Renault if I'm not mistaken). During the nearly twenty years of OEM usage of the TRX system there were literally millions of cars produced with those tires and yet, the system and concept still died. For those unfortunate enough to have classic cars that require TRX tires (say a 1988 BMW M6 for instance), new tires can still be had from some specialty tire shops in (primarily in Europe), however, when available, they usually cost upwards of $700 per tire. Ouch.
Only time will tell if the PAX system follows the model set forth by the TRX system, and I'm willing to accept that my prediction of its untimely demise might could well be premature. That said, I'm betting that it will fail, and as such, I will only shop for cars with conventional GFTs (or conventional RFTs if absolutely necessary).
Now, as for PAX supporters making unsubstantiated claims that conventional RTFs will "derim" due to aggressive maneuvering. That really doesn't help the credibility of other folks who genuinely like the PAX system. Why? Well, if the tire to rim interface was so tenuous with conventional RFTs, why would BMW included them on every 300 HP (independent tests suggest more like 350) twin-turbo 335i? Geez, I can see it now, my friend (fellow TownHaller too) and race driver brave1heart trades up to a 335i, heads out to one of the many tracks that he's been known to frequent, and rolls a tire off the rim. Yeah, that'll win him some races. :P
The fact is that the PAX system, in and of itself, has many positive aspects. However, by forcing adopters to put up with a non-standard rim size and configuration, and then not having a comprehensive infrastructure rolled out before these tires hit the road is not a good thing for the consuming public. I remain the loyal opposition. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo