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There has to have been many road hazard replacements with wheels because even a nail hole required a replacement. I doubt also that there were many hotel bills. However, no used wheels are recycled back into the market. The tires are mounted on new wheels. I heard some dealer charged customers with blemished wheels on an exchange. This should not have been the case.
Here's my concern: What happens when Michelin decides that Run Flats aren't worth the cost/effort and I'm stuck with a car that won't/can't use any other wheel type? I got a reprieve today when the Honda dealership from whom I purchased the Touring said they'd give me the wheels "free under warranty" and I'd pay for only the tires at $200 per. So now what was going to be a $1500 bill is down to $600. But what about next time?
"PAX $2400 for 4 tires" That is a terrible reward for buying a Honda with overpriced tires. If you want non Pax tires and a working TPMS system, a solution may be coming in 2007. http://www.hondanews.com/CatID2059?mid=2006082553691&mime=asc "For 2007, the Odyssey adds ... and a Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) on all trim levels." (This should include non pax models).
This could mean that non Pax Odyssey wheels and tires could be substituted for Pax if the TPMS system remains the same as in 2006. You would have to buy 4 new regular wheels, TPMS sensors, miniature spare tire and spare wheel, hardware to mount miniature spare and some other parts. Can not say what the price would be.
It might be best to not buy Michelin if possible so that dollars do not go to the originator of overpriced and fast wearing Pax tires.
Or there are aftermarket TPMS systems. Price about $212 plus installation at a well known online tire store.
I was told $600+- per tire by all 3 of my local Honda deales, no mention of a return of a core charge bay any of them, so finding another dealer is not an option.
I found one local tire dealer who has the PAX equipment and can dismount and repair a PAX tire (if the damage is repairable) but they do not have new tires, they told me I must bring them from a dealer. The dealers tell me they do not have the tires only because they do not have the equipment, they only have the complete tire and wheel assemblies.
That sounds like a real mess Jeff. At those prices, it would be cheaper to drive 500 or 600 miles to another city, if need be, and pay for a hotel room to avoid paying $600 each for tires. How far are you from Southern California? I know where you can get them for $200 exchange. ;-) And isn't it odd that we're talking about only $200 like its a bargain?
PAX apologists, or Michelin message board plants, would have us believe that things will get better. And I hope they ARE right. But this won't happen if the rollout goes poorly and dealer opportunism scares folks away. $600 each stories, which are anything but isolated, seem to be indicative that this may, in fact, be going on.
And since someone else finally mentioned the Michelin TRX, I'll comment too: Those metric wheels also gave Michelin a monopoly. Ford put them on new Mustangs and T-birds in the early 80's. I bought a new T-bird turbo, a red 5-speed, but didn't opt for the TRX wheels. I do remember that every single issue of the Auto Trader back then had 3 or 4 sets of TRX take-offs for sale, as people ditched them in droves. Friends of mine with TRX fumed when it came time to buy new tires. It was nearly cheaper to buy new wheels and tires than it was to buy TRX tires -- so they did.
"I found one local tire dealer who has the PAX equipment and can dismount and repair a PAX tire (if the damage is repairable) but they do not have new tires, they told me I must bring them from a dealer."
Are the folks at Michelin REALLY so braindead that they would sell the PAX equipment to tire dealers but NOT make PAX tires available to those same tire dealers?
What kind of moronic business practice is this? Are they INTENTIONALLY trying to screw this up?
For a couple months now I have read these discussions with interest. I to am dissatisfied with the monopolistic aspect the PAX system for my 2006 Touring model. In my opinion the PAX tires and wheels are not a bad product, and for high performance tires people pay in the $185.00 range for new tires all the time. I think that we just do not consider a minivan in the sport car realm so the sticker shocks us.
For me though it was the lack of flexibility to repair that caused me to change out my PAX tire/wheel units for other wheels off another Honda vehicle with TPMS. Plus, the wheels/tires are larger (which required changing the pinion setting), but I gained another 3/4 inch of ground clearance!
I also got with a buddy who bought a donut spare for me (he owns a body-shop). The total bill for the four new wheels, tires, TPMS untis and spare came to $574.00. Now I will be selling my four PAX units on ebay and will never look back!
In my experience, the treadwear and longevity of these tires is abysmal. Our 2005 Ody Touring has but 26,000 miles on it. At 12,000 miles, we were told by the dealer that all four tires needed to be replaced because of low tread. Of course, we were shocked, and we called Michelin to ask whether a 12,000 mile lifespan were the norm for these tires. After inspecting the tires at the dealer, all four were replaced, free of charge. We thought we had defective tires, and hoped to avoid the problem again (at least for another 25K - 30K miles). When the new tires were installed, they were installed by the local PAX dealer, and the wheels were balanced and aligned.
Fast forward just over one year. The tires (all four) need to be replaced AGAIN. I guess we should be thankful that we got an extra 2,000 miles out of these. We took the Ody back to the Michelin PAX dealer, and they could not believe their eyes. They told us that they keep seeing the same thing - incredibly short lifespans on these tires, and a recent unwillingness for Michelin to own up to the problem. The tire store has promised to seek authority from Michelin to replace them again, at a significant discount. Unfortunately, if they do not, we are looking at another $1000 to relpace the four, and apparently, an annual expense at that.
I'm all for safety, but there is a significant tradeoff (to me) in terms of value in these tires.
Had oiled changed today and asked service advisor about PAX tires. He said they can repair them at the dealer for $20.00 if repairable and said a nail was repairable. Said if they didn't have one on hand they could get one in a day.
I also talked to a salesman about the PAX system and what would you do on a Sat./Sun. night and no one to do repairs. He said to put on the spare and so I asked him to show me the spare. Surprise, surprise. I wonder how many buyers think they have a spare?
I'm curious as to your driving pattern - is it mostly in town?
It is a mix, but mostly in-town. Typical "soccer mom" driving -- pretty much what this minivan was made for and marketed (at least to us) as appropriate for.
Sounds like you are very lucky. The (ONE) local store that services the Michelin PAX tires has seen many similar cases to ours. He is going to try to speak to a supervisor at Michelin today to get a little more relief.
It could be something caused by local roads. Are you driving on bitumic or concrete? Whould you mind to tell us where you are located? 12000 is low even for high performance summer tire.
It could be something caused by local roads. Are you driving on bitumic or concrete? Whould you mind to tell us where you are located? 12000 is low even for high performance summer tire.
We are located in Marietta, GA (suburb of Atlanta). I'm no chemical engineer, so I can't tell you the bitumen levels in the roads. Looks like regular asphalt to me. No similar reaction on any of our previous cars/tires to the same driving conditions.
but if you see a fellow Odyssey Touring at gas station ask them about their wear. I really think there is something with the roads you travel (maybe temperature too) that make tires wear that fast.
Your tire dealer sees probably all local PAX cars. If they say it is typical it probably is, at least for your area.
If you want call few remote PAX dealers and ask them what milage they see. I am not sure if they answer but it is nice investigative work probably being done my Michelin as we type.
I have a 2005 Touring edition. I only got 32000 out of my tires. We drive normal driving both highway and in town. Very little back roads. The edge of all my tires are getting small splits in them. We had a leak a few months ago, and there are only 2 dealers in middle TN that will repair a PAX tire. I had to drive from columbia to Murfreesboro (30-45 miles)after making an appointment and pay $60 to have it repaired. Shortly after we received another leak and after Honda telling me I needed new tires I decided to plug it. That worked great. We have received another leak since the plug on vacation and I had to plug it again. These tires do not self-seal. Our local Honda dealer (Darrell-Waltrip Honda in Franklin TN) said they would swap our wheels and tires for new ones (giving them the old ones) for $1000 not including tax. I think this is terrible to pay 1000 every 30000 miles for tires on a minivan that are impossible to find dealers to work on it. I decided to order new tires and wheels from Tirerack.com with Yokahama's that will get 60000. I am going to take the pressure sensors off myself and have the local tire dealer install them in the new wheels I just received. The wheels I purchased are designed to accept valve stem tire sensors. I will let you know how it goes. The tires they suggested at Tire Rack were 235/60-R17 (not a common size, they only had the same michelin Energy that would fit). I decided to go with 235/65/R17. I am installing them tonight and will let you know how they perform. i only paid $867 for both Wheels and tires, mounted and balanced from Tirerack (price included socket, lugs, and wrench to install; all I need to get is a spare). It will probably only cost at the most $100 to get all four sensors installed in the new wheel and tires. It will probably cost near $1000 total for the swap. Alot better to get a 60000 mile tire that is easier to work on for the same price as a PAX swap. The dealer in Murfreesboro could get the PAX tires to install, but it would cost the same as swapping them at the Honda dealership. I do not think the PAX system is going to last unless they make them more tire dealer friendly (rubber that surrounds inside rim is the worst part to remove for a repair according to tire dealer in Murfreesboro).
By the way, Our local Honda dealer cannot repair the PAX tires. I stumbled on the one in Murfreesboro while buying a new set of tires for my Titan. Our dealer would only swap the whole wheel and tire, even if it was only a puncture.
Shaeboy--thanks a lot for your post. Please update us with how you make out with the new wheels and tires. Especially how the install of the tire pressure sensors went. Thanks again--excellent post.
Mounted the new tires and wheels, they fit and ride great. I am going to remove the sensors tomorrow and go in saturday to have them installed. Will let you know how it goes. I set the old wheels leaning on the new ones just mounted and the TPMS system still picked up the tire pressure in the old wheel. The specks for my new wheels and tires from TireRack are:
How are you retrieving the TPMS sensors from the PAX wheel? and...you are obviously going to have to balance the wheels again once they are mounted up. How 'bout some pictures of the new setup! Hope it all works out for you.
I am going to cut a section square from the tire in order to remove the sensor that mounts to the valve stem. I have lifetime balance with a local tire dealer in Columbia, TN that I have called, and he said they were trained to install the sensors without harming them. He said it would not cost more than $10-$15 dollars a tire. I am getting it done Saturday morning. I will post pictures of the completed setup when I have it finished, sensor removal and all.
There is a dealer in Murfreesboro that could dismount the tires and remove the sensors and install in the new wheels and tires, but I have a feeling it would cost alot more. I feel fine removing them myself.
The Honda Odyssey tire pressure sensors are made by TRW/EnTire Solutions. These sensors (and many others like them) employ a single-use nut that shears internally at a preset torque. The special nut must be replaced when a sensor is re-installed, so make sure that your specially trained tire person uses a new TRW/EnTire part on each sensor.
It is critical to use a new nut because the shear plate within allows the nut to first tighten the valve stem to the sensor itself (they are not fixed so they can swivel to match varying internal wheel shapes) until the shear panel breaks, then the technician should continue tightening the nut with a standard torque wrench (a small one, its a very light torque, 38 lb-in +/- 2) to seat the valve stem to the wheel. Too loose and it leaks, too tight and the o-ring is damaged, and it leaks - but not for a few weeks.
If you re-use an old nut, the valve stem-to-pressure sensor torque won't come out right, even if a torque wrench is properly used.
If you use the same sensors, the TPMS will work mostly fine. Just know that the run-flat miles to go count-down function will no longer apply, as your new range will be zero miles, and you'll need to carry a jack and a spare. The low pressure warning trigger point will be based on whatever the PAX tire pressure rating was, and can't be re adjusted to the new tires you use - these functions are buried in the software.
Don't plan on carrying a can of fix-a-flat (or equivalent)instead of a spare, because this hole-plugging fluid can plug the hole in the TPMS sensor so that it can no longer measure pressure - giving you a dashboard error message and requiring a new sensor to be installed. This is why run-flats cannot also be self-sealing, as you lamented earlier.
I'd have the dealer dismount the tire. They might not need to dismount the whole tire - they just need to break the one bead adjacent to the sensor and reach in (I think - all bets are off in PAXland). If you do the home-surgery thing, know that a sensor is about four inches long and two wide, so you'll need to cut big holes in those reinforced sidewalls.
Thanks for the good info. I cut a square hole in the sidewall and removed the sensors with no problem. I will let the tire dealer know about the nut. Everything should work out fine. I did not buy run flats on the new wheels, glad to get back to regular tires. I do like the tire pressure sensors though. If I had to do it again I would have bought the EX model instead of the Touring, then I would not have to mess with all this.
I think I am planning to do the same for my Odyssey Touring. Would you have a web page that shows how to install or re-install these sensors from TRW? :confuse:
Sensors went on the new wheels without a hitch. I will post pictures soon of removal and what they look like installed. Cost $60 total to install them.
Planning to get an extra set of snow tires and rims and contacted Tirerack. They said they will sell me the snow tires (minus run flat) and wheels with the pressure sensors from TRW. Would there be compatibility issues with the new sensors?
By the way, I checked the manual, and checked where the jack and tire are supposed to go in my 2005 Touring. There is a jack and wrench, just no spare. All I have to do is get a spare. Will post pictures soon of wheel setup.
-No, the touring lugs do not fit, but Tirerack provided new ones plus a wrench and socket for them. -Yes, the storage is there, just have to get the spare. Have not gotten a quote yet on the spare. -There is another post (#607) on this board where a guy bought the EX wheels and tires from Ebay, swapped the sensors over, and they worked great. -I did not have the speedometer adjusted. the new tire size only made the speed off by 2-3 miles per hour.
There is no speedo adjustment needed - if you use the Odyssey EX tire size. The guy who talked about needing to adjust "the pinion" had put Honda Pilot SUV wheels and tires on - something I would NOT recommend. He did it, apparently, to get a Honda wheel tire setup that had TPMS sensors already, and went that route because Odyssey EX wheels don't have TPMS. He was lucky it worked, TPMS-wise, because some car companies use different TPMS vendors from car model to car model. My old company used two different suppliers.
If you have snow tires with 4 all-new sensors of the correct brand, the TMPS ECU will not recognize them until you've driven 20 or so minutes - more or less. You will have an error lamp during that period, which will eventually go out of its own accord. Auto-learn does not apply to all TPMS systems, but the one on the Odyssey should do it.
The diagram I have regarding the sensor change and torque procedure is a proprietary .pdf I received from TRW / EnTire when I was working for a car company, so I can't post it.
1. Entire Solution e-mail me back and says that the only way I can buy the sensors is through my local Honda dealer. However, when I contacted Tirerack.com, they said they will sell me the rims and tires WITH the TPM sensors. If so, can they be both correct? I just need to buy the sensors for snow tires and/or eventually replacing the run flats with regular rims and all seasons tires. 2. Could you e-mail the torque procedure and sensor change procedures to me - my e-mail address is public in this forum.
Bottomline is, the Touring model AND the TPM set up is something that I do want but not with the run flats. I live in Canada and will be getting a US Odyssey Touring in about 1 week (which is cheaper and has more features than what we have up here).
You spend thousands for a new minivan and then have to go through all this baloney just so you can have a normal set of tires and a spare. What a shame!
I would not identify what I am doing as a shame but that is your opinion. I use the internet to help me figure this out. Obviously, I do have the time too which is not everyone's cup of tea (or baloney). Hey, I don't like run flats anymore than you do given what I read here. It is a scenario which is going to be different from person to person.
I didnt mean to ruffle any feathers. My story has been told here in past posts. I think runflats are garbage! I have a Sienna with these tires and I am switching to regular tires as soon as the runflats are worn out which will be soon (I only have around 12000 miles on the runflats). It appears that the PAX tires on the honda are an even bigger headache. I think its a shame that people pay thousands of dollars for a new van that doesnt have a spare tire. In the place of a spare they give you tires that will leave you stuck in the middle of nowhere if you have a flat. It happened to me and my family. Runflats dont hold together at highway speeds. Now the customers who bought these vans and had such horrible experiences with them are left on their own to fix the problems while tire companies and car makers point the finger at each other. All I asked toyota for was a spare wheel. Not even a tire. Just a freakin wheel. Their answer was NO! I wasnt saying that what your doing is a shame. I was saying that its a shame YOU have to do it. It should be Honda's problem to fix, not yours.
None ruffled. Figured you must have experienced it personally. Agreed that is a shame for those who had to go through it plus paid close to MSRP. I think I will be paying around US$$900 over invoice.
The dealer quoted me about US$5,000 off the sticker price for the '06 and if I look at it from the Canadian perspective, I get a decent car, terrific discount (when compared to the Touring up here ... which is US$4,000 w/o DVD and just the NAV), a DVD RES that will cost extra here, and possibly some extra tires and wheels as door stops in my garage. May be I will use those wheels as flower pots or something. To me, one option is simply to get a spare from the local Canadian Honda dealer - although I have not researched that thought/idea as yet. I will be doing more browsing on the internet including eBay.
A few years ago, I remember first seeing run flat tires appearing on a TV commerical (Bridgestone tires?) showing a BMW 3 series driving around with a hole in the front of the tire the size of a golf ball. I guess no body can defy the laws of physics and the laws of cost benefits.
Is there a thread in this forum space that tells the truth about run flats? The 2007 model is a carry over so the run flat tires are still there. :sick:
The diagram I have regarding the sensor change and torque procedure is a proprietary .pdf I received from TRW / EnTire when I was working for a car company, so I can't post it.
So, let me get this straight, a person is FORCED to have only certain dealer's work on their vehicles if the tire that comes as standard equipment needs to be repaired?
I'm fairly certain that some state Attorney General's offices would be interested in getting a hold of this one. This has all of the earmarks of restraint of trade and other miscellaneous violations of state consumer protection laws.
The MSRP on my van was $41,500 and I paid $37,500. I got every option but the Navigation and rear camera. Still a heck of alot of money if you ask me. Almost 40 grand and I couldn't get a spare out of Toyota. SAD!
The truth about runflats (sienna's runflats) from my experience is that they work if you are tooling around town where speed limits are around 35mph or less, the treadwear is horrible, they are extremely overpriced and difficult to find if you need one, and if you are on an interstate highway where speed limits are 65mph and above, dont count on one to get you very far. We lost the air pressure in our right front tire and after a mile or so at 70mph the tire began to smoke and disintegrate. Our TPS system failed to notify us of the pressure loss so we kept driving. When you lose pressure in a runflat you can't really tell because the ride doesnt change much at first. Well after $125 for a tow and another $120 for a new non runflat tire (couldnt find a runflat anywhere) we were back on the road after a four hour delay, two of which were spent on the side of the highway with traffic speeding by us as we sat there helpless. Now I carry a full size spare whenever I go out of town. I wont forget my treatment by Toyota either.
Actually, Honda/Acura only make one TPMS period. The part is the same regardless of the vehicle and they are recognized instantly by the car and regardless of the manufacturer - the specifications for operation are identical to ensure proper function across vendors and vehicles. Honda does this to keep their costs down and maintain decent owner satisfaction. Not to mention the monopoly aspect of the PAX system really irritates me.
I put wheels/tires/tpms on my 2006 touring that came off of a 2006 Honda Ridgeline. I consulted with my dealer in doing this and did not "get lucky." I did it because I wanted additional ground clearance and tires that last 80,000 miles plus - per both past experience with LTX M/S tires and thousands of reviews on tirerack.com.
Now because the Ridgeline wheels are 29.54 diameter compared to the standard Odyssey measurement of 28.1 inches, I will either need to adjust the pinion setting or keep going the way I have been knowing that when my speedometer registers 66 mph, I actually traveling closer to 70 mph.
I found a 17x4 Honda Odyssey Spare at Woodfin Used Auto parts for $75 + $15 to ship. Will be in by the end of the week. Total for new wheels, new tires(17x7 Sport Edition RB5 Bright Silver Paint wheels-235/65HR17 Yokohama Geolandar H/T-S G052 tires from TireRack) , move sensors over, and check alighnment, and spare tire: $1018. The replacement pax systems wheels and tires with Tax would have been $1100, plus I would have only gotten 30000 miles again and have no one to work on them. The warranty on the Yokahama's is 60000. Hope you other PAX Odyssey owners that want to swap to regular wheels and tires, work out the swap this good.
The Better Business Bureau just contacted me and asked if I would like to lodge an "Auto Line" complaint against Honda. I had originally lodged a regular Business complaint against them (to which they did not reply). This was back in March. The BBB called me and said they are reviewing some of these complaints and suggesting that consumers lodge Auto line complaints since it is something Honda will respond too. So, I just went up to their webstie (www.bbb.org) and re-submitted the complaint via the "Auto Manufacturer - BBB Auto Line" option. Ill let you know what happens.
I am confused by your posting. I am new to this issue with the PAX tire system. I took my 2005 Honda into the dealership because the system was reading a problem. They told me all 4 tires need to be replaced at the cost of $600 for each tire. Why is my dealer's price so different?
I need help. I took my 2005 Touring Odyssey to the dealer (Boston) for a few warranty items and to check why the PAX tire system was registering an issue with one tire. I was shocked to receive a call from the dealership with the report that due to the car being out of alignment the tires are bald on the inside of the tire and they all need to be replaced at the total cost of $2,400. Since this morning I have gotten a quick education on the PAX tire system.
Trust was lacking from the start of the phone call when the dealership (who rotated my tires under 4 months ago) said the unusually premature wear is due to the car being out of alignment. I pointed out that I feel absolutely no pull on the car at all when driving and how does the state of the tires change so quickly.
I asked the dealer to align the tires. They called me back and said they can't align the tires because the 1 tire that was reading a problem has a broken valve stem. I told them someone in their shop was the last person to touch that valve. The dealer said someone must have taken the protective cap off and damaged it by "maybe trying to steal the tire" and them replaced the protective cap. We have been arguing all day that they are responsible for fixing the tire (which only has 18 lbs of air). They want me to pay $600 for the tire because they do not have the machine that allows them to fix only the valve.
At this point it seems logical to remove all of the PAX tires and replace them with EX rims (parts department said I can get 2005 rims for $800). I have read many of the entries on this forum and it is clear there are many issues with the PAX tire system. I welcome any advice. I need to do something soon, but what do I do?
The dealer is trying to sell you four wheel/tires combos. You don't need them. Call around and/or contact Michelin and find out where you can buy just PAX tires. The price of each tire should be less than $200. Mounting fees will, however, be steep.
I wish I knew why your dealer is trying to charge you $600 per PAX tire. My Honda dealer (in Illinois) will swap out an entire PAX tire/wheel unit for $200 apiece, on an even exchange for one of mine. The PAX tire also comes with a 2-year replacement guarantee, so it would appear that your 2005 could be covered under this warranty. I would contact other dealers for comparative pricing info, and/or call Honda customer service to fully research options and prices that would apply to your situation.
I am about 5 months away from buying a new car and was 99.9% sold on ody. I definitely want the touring for the memory seats. That is a prime need for us. BUT - this PAX thing has me wondering. Went to my Honda dealer and both sales and service "never heard any complaints from customers and do not know of any problem." I called the honda usa customer service today and was told that Honda is giving complainers the contact info for Michelin and offering to sell new tires/rims at a PRICE. According to the rep I spoke to, there are no plans to change or rectify the problem. This will likely change my purchase plans. If a company does not want my business, who am I to force it on them? :mad:
The diagram I have regarding the sensor change and torque procedure is a proprietary .pdf I received from TRW / EnTire when I was working for a car company, so I can't post it.
So, let me get this straight, a person is FORCED to have only certain dealer's work on their vehicles if the tire that comes as standard equipment needs to be repaired?
Not at all. The document is proprietary/confidential because it contains other material relating to specific prototype vehicles in development. Things like the new vehicle's code name appear on the header and footer of every page.
I've certainly gotten an education on PAX in the last few days. Many thanks to this forum. Our 2005 Odyssey Touring with 44k miles needs 4 new PAX tires. Our local Honda dealer quoted $700 per wheel for the system, not much better at a Michelin dealer.
At Clair Honda, Boston however, I was quoted $200 per tire, so ordered them and am scheduled for installation.
Now, $200 may not be reasonable for commodity tires, but for these run-flats, it does beat the cost of swapping out to non-run-flats and finding a spot for a (un)convenient spare.
Just thaought I'd pass along the info to save others from hunting replacement tires as well...
Comments
It's been two years since the PAX roll-out and neither yet seems to have their act together.
"For 2007, the Odyssey adds ... and a Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) on all trim levels." (This should include non pax models).
This could mean that non Pax Odyssey wheels and tires could be substituted for Pax if the TPMS system remains the same as in 2006. You would have to buy 4 new regular wheels, TPMS sensors, miniature spare tire and spare wheel, hardware to mount miniature spare and some other parts. Can not say what the price would be.
It might be best to not buy Michelin if possible so that dollars do not go to the originator of overpriced and fast wearing Pax tires.
Or there are aftermarket TPMS systems. Price about $212 plus installation at a well known online tire store.
I found one local tire dealer who has the PAX equipment and can dismount and repair a PAX tire (if the damage is repairable) but they do not have new tires, they told me I must bring them from a dealer. The dealers tell me they do not have the tires only because they do not have the equipment, they only have the complete tire and wheel assemblies.
I'm not impressed with either Michelin or Honda.
Regards, JEff
PAX apologists, or Michelin message board plants, would have us believe that things will get better. And I hope they ARE right. But this won't happen if the rollout goes poorly and dealer opportunism scares folks away. $600 each stories, which are anything but isolated, seem to be indicative that this may, in fact, be going on.
And since someone else finally mentioned the Michelin TRX, I'll comment too: Those metric wheels also gave Michelin a monopoly. Ford put them on new Mustangs and T-birds in the early 80's. I bought a new T-bird turbo, a red 5-speed, but didn't opt for the TRX wheels. I do remember that every single issue of the Auto Trader back then had 3 or 4 sets of TRX take-offs for sale, as people ditched them in droves. Friends of mine with TRX fumed when it came time to buy new tires. It was nearly cheaper to buy new wheels and tires than it was to buy TRX tires -- so they did.
I hate monopolies.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Are the folks at Michelin REALLY so braindead that they would sell the PAX equipment to tire dealers but NOT make PAX tires available to those same tire dealers?
What kind of moronic business practice is this? Are they INTENTIONALLY trying to screw this up?
For me though it was the lack of flexibility to repair that caused me to change out my PAX tire/wheel units for other wheels off another Honda vehicle with TPMS. Plus, the wheels/tires are larger (which required changing the pinion setting), but I gained another 3/4 inch of ground clearance!
I also got with a buddy who bought a donut spare for me (he owns a body-shop). The total bill for the four new wheels, tires, TPMS untis and spare came to $574.00. Now I will be selling my four PAX units on ebay and will never look back!
Fast forward just over one year. The tires (all four) need to be replaced AGAIN. I guess we should be thankful that we got an extra 2,000 miles out of these. We took the Ody back to the Michelin PAX dealer, and they could not believe their eyes. They told us that they keep seeing the same thing - incredibly short lifespans on these tires, and a recent unwillingness for Michelin to own up to the problem. The tire store has promised to seek authority from Michelin to replace them again, at a significant discount. Unfortunately, if they do not, we are looking at another $1000 to relpace the four, and apparently, an annual expense at that.
I'm all for safety, but there is a significant tradeoff (to me) in terms of value in these tires.
My '05 has almost 23,000 mostly highway miles and the tires are wearing evenly and have lots of tread left - they should be good for 40K or more.
I also talked to a salesman about the PAX system and what would you do on a Sat./Sun. night and no one to do repairs. He said to put on the spare and so I asked him to show me the spare. Surprise, surprise. I wonder how many buyers think they have a spare?
It is a mix, but mostly in-town. Typical "soccer mom" driving -- pretty much what this minivan was made for and marketed (at least to us) as appropriate for.
Sounds like you are very lucky. The (ONE) local store that services the Michelin PAX tires has seen many similar cases to ours. He is going to try to speak to a supervisor at Michelin today to get a little more relief.
12000 is low even for high performance summer tire.
Krzys
12000 is low even for high performance summer tire.
We are located in Marietta, GA (suburb of Atlanta). I'm no chemical engineer, so I can't tell you the bitumen levels in the roads. Looks like regular asphalt to me. No similar reaction on any of our previous cars/tires to the same driving conditions.
Your tire dealer sees probably all local PAX cars. If they say it is typical it probably is, at least for your area.
If you want call few remote PAX dealers and ask them what milage they see. I am not sure if they answer but it is nice investigative work probably being done my Michelin as we type.
Krzys
Thanks again--excellent post.
4 17x7 Sport Edition RB5 Bright Silver wheels
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4 235/65HR-17 Yokohama Geolandar H/T-S G052 tires
It is critical to use a new nut because the shear plate within allows the nut to first tighten the valve stem to the sensor itself (they are not fixed so they can swivel to match varying internal wheel shapes) until the shear panel breaks, then the technician should continue tightening the nut with a standard torque wrench (a small one, its a very light torque, 38 lb-in +/- 2) to seat the valve stem to the wheel. Too loose and it leaks, too tight and the o-ring is damaged, and it leaks - but not for a few weeks.
If you re-use an old nut, the valve stem-to-pressure sensor torque won't come out right, even if a torque wrench is properly used.
If you use the same sensors, the TPMS will work mostly fine. Just know that the run-flat miles to go count-down function will no longer apply, as your new range will be zero miles, and you'll need to carry a jack and a spare. The low pressure warning trigger point will be based on whatever the PAX tire pressure rating was, and can't be re adjusted to the new tires you use - these functions are buried in the software.
Don't plan on carrying a can of fix-a-flat (or equivalent)instead of a spare, because this hole-plugging fluid can plug the hole in the TPMS sensor so that it can no longer measure pressure - giving you a dashboard error message and requiring a new sensor to be installed. This is why run-flats cannot also be self-sealing, as you lamented earlier.
I'd have the dealer dismount the tire. They might not need to dismount the whole tire - they just need to break the one bead adjacent to the sensor and reach in (I think - all bets are off in PAXland). If you do the home-surgery thing, know that a sensor is about four inches long and two wide, so you'll need to cut big holes in those reinforced sidewalls.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Is there a storage compartment for a miniature spare in the Touring? And what did the dealer quote you on the price of the spare?
Would an EX wheel set up work on a Touring both for sizing and the pressure monitoring system? And if so, what did the dealer quote you?
Where there any other adjustments needed, such as a pinion adjustment that on guy mentioned?
Thanks!
-Yes, the storage is there, just have to get the spare. Have not gotten a quote yet on the spare.
-There is another post (#607) on this board where a guy bought the EX wheels and tires from Ebay, swapped the sensors over, and they worked great.
-I did not have the speedometer adjusted. the new tire size only made the speed off by 2-3 miles per hour.
If you have snow tires with 4 all-new sensors of the correct brand, the TMPS ECU will not recognize them until you've driven 20 or so minutes - more or less. You will have an error lamp during that period, which will eventually go out of its own accord. Auto-learn does not apply to all TPMS systems, but the one on the Odyssey should do it.
The diagram I have regarding the sensor change and torque procedure is a proprietary .pdf I received from TRW / EnTire when I was working for a car company, so I can't post it.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
1. Entire Solution e-mail me back and says that the only way I can buy the sensors is through my local Honda dealer. However, when I contacted Tirerack.com, they said they will sell me the rims and tires WITH the TPM sensors. If so, can they be both correct? I just need to buy the sensors for snow tires and/or eventually replacing the run flats with regular rims and all seasons tires.
2. Could you e-mail the torque procedure and sensor change procedures to me - my e-mail address is public in this forum.
Bottomline is, the Touring model AND the TPM set up is something that I do want but not with the run flats. I live in Canada and will be getting a US Odyssey Touring in about 1 week (which is cheaper and has more features than what we have up here).
I would not identify what I am doing as a shame but that is your opinion. I use the internet to help me figure this out. Obviously, I do have the time too which is not everyone's cup of tea (or baloney). Hey, I don't like run flats anymore than you do given what I read here. It is a scenario which is going to be different from person to person.
What is your story?
The dealer quoted me about US$5,000 off the sticker price for the '06 and if I look at it from the Canadian perspective, I get a decent car, terrific discount (when compared to the Touring up here ... which is US$4,000 w/o DVD and just the NAV), a DVD RES that will cost extra here, and possibly some extra tires and wheels as door stops in my garage. May be I will use those wheels as flower pots or something. To me, one option is simply to get a spare from the local Canadian Honda dealer - although I have not researched that thought/idea as yet. I will be doing more browsing on the internet including eBay.
A few years ago, I remember first seeing run flat tires appearing on a TV commerical (Bridgestone tires?) showing a BMW 3 series driving around with a hole in the front of the tire the size of a golf ball. I guess no body can defy the laws of physics and the laws of cost benefits.
Is there a thread in this forum space that tells the truth about run flats? The 2007 model is a carry over so the run flat tires are still there. :sick:
So, let me get this straight, a person is FORCED to have only certain dealer's work on their vehicles if the tire that comes as standard equipment needs to be repaired?
I'm fairly certain that some state Attorney General's offices would be interested in getting a hold of this one. This has all of the earmarks of restraint of trade and other miscellaneous violations of state consumer protection laws.
The truth about runflats (sienna's runflats) from my experience is that they work if you are tooling around town where speed limits are around 35mph or less, the treadwear is horrible, they are extremely overpriced and difficult to find if you need one, and if you are on an interstate highway where speed limits are 65mph and above, dont count on one to get you very far. We lost the air pressure in our right front tire and after a mile or so at 70mph the tire began to smoke and disintegrate. Our TPS system failed to notify us of the pressure loss so we kept driving. When you lose pressure in a runflat you can't really tell because the ride doesnt change much at first. Well after $125 for a tow and another $120 for a new non runflat tire (couldnt find a runflat anywhere) we were back on the road after a four hour delay, two of which were spent on the side of the highway with traffic speeding by us as we sat there helpless. Now I carry a full size spare whenever I go out of town. I wont forget my treatment by Toyota either.
I put wheels/tires/tpms on my 2006 touring that came off of a 2006 Honda Ridgeline. I consulted with my dealer in doing this and did not "get lucky." I did it because I wanted additional ground clearance and tires that last 80,000 miles plus - per both past experience with LTX M/S tires and thousands of reviews on tirerack.com.
Now because the Ridgeline wheels are 29.54 diameter compared to the standard Odyssey measurement of 28.1 inches, I will either need to adjust the pinion setting or keep going the way I have been knowing that when my speedometer registers 66 mph, I actually traveling closer to 70 mph.
, move sensors over, and check alighnment, and spare tire: $1018. The replacement pax systems wheels and tires with Tax would have been $1100, plus I would have only gotten 30000 miles again and have no one to work on them. The warranty on the Yokahama's is 60000. Hope you other PAX Odyssey owners that want to swap to regular wheels and tires, work out the swap this good.
So, I just went up to their webstie (www.bbb.org) and re-submitted the complaint via the "Auto Manufacturer - BBB Auto Line" option. Ill let you know what happens.
Trust was lacking from the start of the phone call when the dealership (who rotated my tires under 4 months ago) said the unusually premature wear is due to the car being out of alignment. I pointed out that I feel absolutely no pull on the car at all when driving and how does the state of the tires change so quickly.
I asked the dealer to align the tires. They called me back and said they can't align the tires because the 1 tire that was reading a problem has a broken valve stem. I told them someone in their shop was the last person to touch that valve. The dealer said someone must have taken the protective cap off and damaged it by "maybe trying to steal the tire" and them replaced the protective cap. We have been arguing all day that they are responsible for fixing the tire (which only has 18 lbs of air). They want me to pay $600 for the tire because they do not have the machine that allows them to fix only the valve.
At this point it seems logical to remove all of the PAX tires and replace them with EX rims (parts department said I can get 2005 rims for $800). I have read many of the entries on this forum and it is clear there are many issues with the PAX tire system. I welcome any advice. I need to do something soon, but what do I do?
BUT - this PAX thing has me wondering. Went to my Honda dealer and both sales and service "never heard any complaints from customers and do not know of any problem."
I called the honda usa customer service today and was told that Honda is giving complainers the contact info for Michelin and offering to sell new tires/rims at a PRICE. According to the rep I spoke to, there are no plans to change or rectify the problem.
This will likely change my purchase plans. If a company does not want my business, who am I to force it on them? :mad:
So, let me get this straight, a person is FORCED to have only certain dealer's work on their vehicles if the tire that comes as standard equipment needs to be repaired?
Not at all. The document is proprietary/confidential because it contains other material relating to specific prototype vehicles in development. Things like the new vehicle's code name appear on the header and footer of every page.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
At Clair Honda, Boston however, I was quoted $200 per tire, so ordered them and am scheduled for installation.
Now, $200 may not be reasonable for commodity tires, but for these run-flats, it does beat the cost of swapping out to non-run-flats and finding a spot for a (un)convenient spare.
Just thaought I'd pass along the info to save others from hunting replacement tires as well...