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It's been two years since the PAX roll-out and neither yet seems to have their act together.
"For 2007, the Odyssey adds ... and a Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) on all trim levels." (This should include non pax models).
This could mean that non Pax Odyssey wheels and tires could be substituted for Pax if the TPMS system remains the same as in 2006. You would have to buy 4 new regular wheels, TPMS sensors, miniature spare tire and spare wheel, hardware to mount miniature spare and some other parts. Can not say what the price would be.
It might be best to not buy Michelin if possible so that dollars do not go to the originator of overpriced and fast wearing Pax tires.
Or there are aftermarket TPMS systems. Price about $212 plus installation at a well known online tire store.
I found one local tire dealer who has the PAX equipment and can dismount and repair a PAX tire (if the damage is repairable) but they do not have new tires, they told me I must bring them from a dealer. The dealers tell me they do not have the tires only because they do not have the equipment, they only have the complete tire and wheel assemblies.
I'm not impressed with either Michelin or Honda.
Regards, JEff
PAX apologists, or Michelin message board plants, would have us believe that things will get better. And I hope they ARE right. But this won't happen if the rollout goes poorly and dealer opportunism scares folks away. $600 each stories, which are anything but isolated, seem to be indicative that this may, in fact, be going on.
And since someone else finally mentioned the Michelin TRX, I'll comment too: Those metric wheels also gave Michelin a monopoly. Ford put them on new Mustangs and T-birds in the early 80's. I bought a new T-bird turbo, a red 5-speed, but didn't opt for the TRX wheels. I do remember that every single issue of the Auto Trader back then had 3 or 4 sets of TRX take-offs for sale, as people ditched them in droves. Friends of mine with TRX fumed when it came time to buy new tires. It was nearly cheaper to buy new wheels and tires than it was to buy TRX tires -- so they did.
I hate monopolies.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Are the folks at Michelin REALLY so braindead that they would sell the PAX equipment to tire dealers but NOT make PAX tires available to those same tire dealers?
What kind of moronic business practice is this? Are they INTENTIONALLY trying to screw this up?
For me though it was the lack of flexibility to repair that caused me to change out my PAX tire/wheel units for other wheels off another Honda vehicle with TPMS. Plus, the wheels/tires are larger (which required changing the pinion setting), but I gained another 3/4 inch of ground clearance!
I also got with a buddy who bought a donut spare for me (he owns a body-shop). The total bill for the four new wheels, tires, TPMS untis and spare came to $574.00. Now I will be selling my four PAX units on ebay and will never look back!
Fast forward just over one year. The tires (all four) need to be replaced AGAIN. I guess we should be thankful that we got an extra 2,000 miles out of these. We took the Ody back to the Michelin PAX dealer, and they could not believe their eyes. They told us that they keep seeing the same thing - incredibly short lifespans on these tires, and a recent unwillingness for Michelin to own up to the problem. The tire store has promised to seek authority from Michelin to replace them again, at a significant discount. Unfortunately, if they do not, we are looking at another $1000 to relpace the four, and apparently, an annual expense at that.
I'm all for safety, but there is a significant tradeoff (to me) in terms of value in these tires.
My '05 has almost 23,000 mostly highway miles and the tires are wearing evenly and have lots of tread left - they should be good for 40K or more.
I also talked to a salesman about the PAX system and what would you do on a Sat./Sun. night and no one to do repairs. He said to put on the spare and so I asked him to show me the spare. Surprise, surprise. I wonder how many buyers think they have a spare?
It is a mix, but mostly in-town. Typical "soccer mom" driving -- pretty much what this minivan was made for and marketed (at least to us) as appropriate for.
Sounds like you are very lucky. The (ONE) local store that services the Michelin PAX tires has seen many similar cases to ours. He is going to try to speak to a supervisor at Michelin today to get a little more relief.
12000 is low even for high performance summer tire.
Krzys
12000 is low even for high performance summer tire.
We are located in Marietta, GA (suburb of Atlanta). I'm no chemical engineer, so I can't tell you the bitumen levels in the roads. Looks like regular asphalt to me. No similar reaction on any of our previous cars/tires to the same driving conditions.
Your tire dealer sees probably all local PAX cars. If they say it is typical it probably is, at least for your area.
If you want call few remote PAX dealers and ask them what milage they see. I am not sure if they answer but it is nice investigative work probably being done my Michelin as we type.
Krzys
Thanks again--excellent post.
4 17x7 Sport Edition RB5 Bright Silver wheels
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4 235/65HR-17 Yokohama Geolandar H/T-S G052 tires
It is critical to use a new nut because the shear plate within allows the nut to first tighten the valve stem to the sensor itself (they are not fixed so they can swivel to match varying internal wheel shapes) until the shear panel breaks, then the technician should continue tightening the nut with a standard torque wrench (a small one, its a very light torque, 38 lb-in +/- 2) to seat the valve stem to the wheel. Too loose and it leaks, too tight and the o-ring is damaged, and it leaks - but not for a few weeks.
If you re-use an old nut, the valve stem-to-pressure sensor torque won't come out right, even if a torque wrench is properly used.
If you use the same sensors, the TPMS will work mostly fine. Just know that the run-flat miles to go count-down function will no longer apply, as your new range will be zero miles, and you'll need to carry a jack and a spare. The low pressure warning trigger point will be based on whatever the PAX tire pressure rating was, and can't be re adjusted to the new tires you use - these functions are buried in the software.
Don't plan on carrying a can of fix-a-flat (or equivalent)instead of a spare, because this hole-plugging fluid can plug the hole in the TPMS sensor so that it can no longer measure pressure - giving you a dashboard error message and requiring a new sensor to be installed. This is why run-flats cannot also be self-sealing, as you lamented earlier.
I'd have the dealer dismount the tire. They might not need to dismount the whole tire - they just need to break the one bead adjacent to the sensor and reach in (I think - all bets are off in PAXland). If you do the home-surgery thing, know that a sensor is about four inches long and two wide, so you'll need to cut big holes in those reinforced sidewalls.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Is there a storage compartment for a miniature spare in the Touring? And what did the dealer quote you on the price of the spare?
Would an EX wheel set up work on a Touring both for sizing and the pressure monitoring system? And if so, what did the dealer quote you?
Where there any other adjustments needed, such as a pinion adjustment that on guy mentioned?
Thanks!
-Yes, the storage is there, just have to get the spare. Have not gotten a quote yet on the spare.
-There is another post (#607) on this board where a guy bought the EX wheels and tires from Ebay, swapped the sensors over, and they worked great.
-I did not have the speedometer adjusted. the new tire size only made the speed off by 2-3 miles per hour.
If you have snow tires with 4 all-new sensors of the correct brand, the TMPS ECU will not recognize them until you've driven 20 or so minutes - more or less. You will have an error lamp during that period, which will eventually go out of its own accord. Auto-learn does not apply to all TPMS systems, but the one on the Odyssey should do it.
The diagram I have regarding the sensor change and torque procedure is a proprietary .pdf I received from TRW / EnTire when I was working for a car company, so I can't post it.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
1. Entire Solution e-mail me back and says that the only way I can buy the sensors is through my local Honda dealer. However, when I contacted Tirerack.com, they said they will sell me the rims and tires WITH the TPM sensors. If so, can they be both correct? I just need to buy the sensors for snow tires and/or eventually replacing the run flats with regular rims and all seasons tires.
2. Could you e-mail the torque procedure and sensor change procedures to me - my e-mail address is public in this forum.
Bottomline is, the Touring model AND the TPM set up is something that I do want but not with the run flats. I live in Canada and will be getting a US Odyssey Touring in about 1 week (which is cheaper and has more features than what we have up here).
I would not identify what I am doing as a shame but that is your opinion. I use the internet to help me figure this out. Obviously, I do have the time too which is not everyone's cup of tea (or baloney). Hey, I don't like run flats anymore than you do given what I read here. It is a scenario which is going to be different from person to person.
What is your story?
The dealer quoted me about US$5,000 off the sticker price for the '06 and if I look at it from the Canadian perspective, I get a decent car, terrific discount (when compared to the Touring up here ... which is US$4,000 w/o DVD and just the NAV), a DVD RES that will cost extra here, and possibly some extra tires and wheels as door stops in my garage. May be I will use those wheels as flower pots or something. To me, one option is simply to get a spare from the local Canadian Honda dealer - although I have not researched that thought/idea as yet. I will be doing more browsing on the internet including eBay.
A few years ago, I remember first seeing run flat tires appearing on a TV commerical (Bridgestone tires?) showing a BMW 3 series driving around with a hole in the front of the tire the size of a golf ball. I guess no body can defy the laws of physics and the laws of cost benefits.
Is there a thread in this forum space that tells the truth about run flats? The 2007 model is a carry over so the run flat tires are still there. :sick:
So, let me get this straight, a person is FORCED to have only certain dealer's work on their vehicles if the tire that comes as standard equipment needs to be repaired?
I'm fairly certain that some state Attorney General's offices would be interested in getting a hold of this one. This has all of the earmarks of restraint of trade and other miscellaneous violations of state consumer protection laws.
The truth about runflats (sienna's runflats) from my experience is that they work if you are tooling around town where speed limits are around 35mph or less, the treadwear is horrible, they are extremely overpriced and difficult to find if you need one, and if you are on an interstate highway where speed limits are 65mph and above, dont count on one to get you very far. We lost the air pressure in our right front tire and after a mile or so at 70mph the tire began to smoke and disintegrate. Our TPS system failed to notify us of the pressure loss so we kept driving. When you lose pressure in a runflat you can't really tell because the ride doesnt change much at first. Well after $125 for a tow and another $120 for a new non runflat tire (couldnt find a runflat anywhere) we were back on the road after a four hour delay, two of which were spent on the side of the highway with traffic speeding by us as we sat there helpless. Now I carry a full size spare whenever I go out of town. I wont forget my treatment by Toyota either.
I put wheels/tires/tpms on my 2006 touring that came off of a 2006 Honda Ridgeline. I consulted with my dealer in doing this and did not "get lucky." I did it because I wanted additional ground clearance and tires that last 80,000 miles plus - per both past experience with LTX M/S tires and thousands of reviews on tirerack.com.
Now because the Ridgeline wheels are 29.54 diameter compared to the standard Odyssey measurement of 28.1 inches, I will either need to adjust the pinion setting or keep going the way I have been knowing that when my speedometer registers 66 mph, I actually traveling closer to 70 mph.
, move sensors over, and check alighnment, and spare tire: $1018. The replacement pax systems wheels and tires with Tax would have been $1100, plus I would have only gotten 30000 miles again and have no one to work on them. The warranty on the Yokahama's is 60000. Hope you other PAX Odyssey owners that want to swap to regular wheels and tires, work out the swap this good.
So, I just went up to their webstie (www.bbb.org) and re-submitted the complaint via the "Auto Manufacturer - BBB Auto Line" option. Ill let you know what happens.
Trust was lacking from the start of the phone call when the dealership (who rotated my tires under 4 months ago) said the unusually premature wear is due to the car being out of alignment. I pointed out that I feel absolutely no pull on the car at all when driving and how does the state of the tires change so quickly.
I asked the dealer to align the tires. They called me back and said they can't align the tires because the 1 tire that was reading a problem has a broken valve stem. I told them someone in their shop was the last person to touch that valve. The dealer said someone must have taken the protective cap off and damaged it by "maybe trying to steal the tire" and them replaced the protective cap. We have been arguing all day that they are responsible for fixing the tire (which only has 18 lbs of air). They want me to pay $600 for the tire because they do not have the machine that allows them to fix only the valve.
At this point it seems logical to remove all of the PAX tires and replace them with EX rims (parts department said I can get 2005 rims for $800). I have read many of the entries on this forum and it is clear there are many issues with the PAX tire system. I welcome any advice. I need to do something soon, but what do I do?
BUT - this PAX thing has me wondering. Went to my Honda dealer and both sales and service "never heard any complaints from customers and do not know of any problem."
I called the honda usa customer service today and was told that Honda is giving complainers the contact info for Michelin and offering to sell new tires/rims at a PRICE. According to the rep I spoke to, there are no plans to change or rectify the problem.
This will likely change my purchase plans. If a company does not want my business, who am I to force it on them? :mad:
So, let me get this straight, a person is FORCED to have only certain dealer's work on their vehicles if the tire that comes as standard equipment needs to be repaired?
Not at all. The document is proprietary/confidential because it contains other material relating to specific prototype vehicles in development. Things like the new vehicle's code name appear on the header and footer of every page.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
At Clair Honda, Boston however, I was quoted $200 per tire, so ordered them and am scheduled for installation.
Now, $200 may not be reasonable for commodity tires, but for these run-flats, it does beat the cost of swapping out to non-run-flats and finding a spot for a (un)convenient spare.
Just thaought I'd pass along the info to save others from hunting replacement tires as well...