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You definately need to speak with Michelin and find a service center that will "replace the tire" only. Your mileage is quite incredible at 46K with another 10K to go! That is just stunning and I assume with the high annual mileage it is mostly highway miles. My Touring is a month old and in anticipation of a good relationship with the PAX system, may I ask what pressures you are running front and rear? I thank you in advance!
I have an 04 Odyssey touring with the Michelin Pax system. It has come time for me to buy new tires and since shopping around I have found out about this whole pax situation. This is crazy that they only make one tire for this system. I would have never bought the touring it I'd known ahead of time that I would be spending $1,500 on new tires. For those of you that bought replacements, can you tell me how much you paid and where you bought them. Thank in advance.
In my first post my o5 touring went in for my 30k service. I was told i needed 4 new tires due to low tread levels.Honda said my van was unsafe to drive.The dealership i bought my van from said each tire was $675.When i called the dealership i bought my 2000 Odyssey from they said $575.,but they only had two.By the way, DON'T SCRATCH YOUR RIMS. If you then HONDA can't trade out your tires if under the protection plan. Just the rims are $575. Back to my first post "#543 PARKING MINE". HONDA paid for my two fromt tires and MICHELIN gave my 25% off each tire. So instead of paying $1200. I paid about $500 total.Hope this helps.Love the van,hate the tires.
Thanks for sharing this tire information. One of the vehicles that I am considering for 2007,(if I purchase a van), is the Odyssey. I will be sure, NOT to purchase the Touring Model! I called a Honda dealer, and I ask if regular tires could be placed on the Honda Touring Model? The dealer said NO! This issue is going to cost Honda a lot of van sales. ------ Best regards. -------Dwayne
I would like some help with finding a $200 dollar PAX tire. Was this tire only and an additional mounting charge?I tried the Honda dealer and he quoted me $650 (tire and Rim) plus installation charges. A tire only dealer tried to help and he could not get a quote for a tire only replacement. Where can this information be found?
I follow tire preasure recommended in the vechile manual and on the van driver's door frame. 33 on the front and 35 on the rear tires.Cold reading as reported by the van info panel taken in the morning before I drve the van.
I fail to understand your complaint. From what you've said, the system worked as it should - they got you a new one overnight, nothing more or less than promised. You were inconvenienced - big deal. If you haven't already sought it, they should also reimburse your overnight expenses.
The idea behind run-flats is that they won't leave you stranded on the highway where the failure occurs, not that they'll get you hundreds of miles home.
Honda sells other Odyssey trim levels, none of which are PAX equipped. If that's what you wanted, you should have bought one. If that's what you want now, trade your Touring for something else.
PAX is hardly alone in its lack of universal availability. The same can happen with most other run-flats as they are low demand and/or odd sizes. Heck, one of my employees was stranded on a freeway in a rural area awhile back because she couldn't locate a tire for her....'02 Taurus. It happens.
The unhappy Pax buyer has a valid complaint. The Pax buyer was inconvenienced. This IS a big deal. But if someone is just trying to cover up and deny problems, a good tactic is to tell the other person that they were not inconvenienced. Of course, the buyer will not be satisfied by mere attempts to deny problems.
The Pax system should provide a replacement within 12 hrs according to the Michelin web site. It is not certain if the replacement arrived within 12hrs. The buyer's flat occurred Sunday afternoon. Since afternoon might be defined as ending at sunset, the latest time in the afternoon would be 8PM unless living near the arctic circle. The replacement was on Monday morning. Unless the replacement arrived before 8AM Monday, this is more than 12 hrs. If the time exceeded 12hrs, the unhappy Pax buyer is entitled to reimbursement for hotel expenses according to the Pax web site.
Lost work and school days are insignificant if you are not the one experiencing them. A big deal if you are the one inconvenienced.
Of course, if the inconvenience is suffered by someone else, it is easy to say it is trivial. I assure you that in that the customer was not happy and customer satisfaction is important. Defending a tire system that has serious problems in implementation and cost of replacements is not as important as satisfying the customer. If the customer is unhappy, they will walk. Trading a new touring for someting else is a waste of money. It might be realistic to buy a new set of tires and wheels and a spare that are not Pax and buy TPMS hardware to go along with it. This is shades of the Michelin TRX failure in the marketplace years ago. Theory was good. Implementation was weak. Replacements were expensive and hard to find, like Pax.
Again, I say - a valid complaint about what exactly? The system worked as advertised. It is hard to find a great many tire sizes on a Sunday anywhere in the U.S. Try finding a tire for a Corvette or an AWD Sienna (to name just two).
We've taken 4 long trips in our '05 Touring (to Florida, California, New Jersey, and South Carolina - all from Columbus, Ohio). In each case I understood that there was a possibility that we'd get stuck for awhile if there was a flat. And that getting stuck would be more than a little inconvenient. So far so good - no problem to date. For me, that is more than offset by the fact that I won't be stuck (or struck) changing a tire by the side of the road or unloading vacation gear to get to the spare.
Time will tell if the analogy to TRX is valid. Given that the technology has been licensed to other manufacturers, my guess is that PAX is the future.
Hi, sorry for my english. I have got the same problem with Pax system in my car Odyssey Touring. Maybe You know which size of a normal tire and whell is good instead of a wheel Pax for Touring ? If You have that information please help me. I bought this car in USA and use it since two weeks. In Poland there is a big problem with Pax system. No way to find tire und wheel Pax system. Even in Europe !!! If You are so kind, i will wait for You answer. With regards Wojtek
Hi all--I'm reposting this since it originally contained Honda contact name which is not allowed:
Honda just doesn't seem to get the message. I too was left stranded on a Sunday afternoon close to Philadelphia and hours away from my home in Georgia. Usual story: no dealer was open, Michelin couldn't get a wheel to me, and 3 tire dealers I went to had never heard of the PAX tires and refused to touch them due to liability issues (I practically begged one to put a donut tire on it). Bottom line: I had to check into a hotel with my wife and 3 children and wait until Monday morning until Michelin got a wheel to me (which they did to their credit). My wife and I lost one day of work and my 3 children lost a day at school and we were all very tired and left pitiful after spending hours on the phone by the highway. This is absolutely unforgivable in this day and age. I complained to Michelin and Honda to take this rubbish PAX system off my van and replace it with normal wheels/tires. They both refused. So I filed a Better Business complaint against Honda requesting they replace the PAX system with a normal set of wheels. The result? No reply. If you too feel taken advantage of by Honda, then I urge you to file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau requesting Honda replace your PAX system with a normal set of wheels. My guess is they will not reply but at least people will be aware of this growing issue as we see more Touring owners in need of new tires. Will Honda wait until the media get hold of this issue before they do something and give customers the option of switching away from this ridiculous system? I filed my complaint against the Torrance branch of Honda since they are the warranty providers. Here's the details (it only takes a couple of minutes to file a complaint online).
LA Better Business Bureau: www.labbb.org
File Complaint against: American Honda Motor Company Incorporated 1919 Torrance Blvd. 500-2N-7A Torrance, CA 90501
P.S. cccompson sounds suspiciously like a Honda customer service rep. His key words and Corporate Line bent are exactly what I heard when talking to Honda and Michelin's customer service. Don't be fooled.
Sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience. I understand how you feel, but disagree with your position. I have owned my Odyssey Touring for 4 months now, and we're going to stick with PAX. I don't believe it's a ridiculous system at all. Certainly there are risks with being the first ones to adopt this technology. I believe that more cars will adopt this system, and it is a fact that more brands have agreed to utilize the patented system. The Accord, Quest, RL, and other models will include PAX tires in 2007 and beyond.
It will take a few years before a sufficient dealer network is created. And tire prices will be higher, but hopefully will come down with time.
I personally like the technology and couldn't be happier to own my Touring. I also fully researched this before I bought my van, and felt I made an educated and best decision for my family and me. I hope you find resolution, but please understand that many people also disagree with you. Good luck.
I would love to buy an Odyssey Touring, but the pax system has me worried - if it's not widely adopted in the next couple of years, then I'd want to be able to swap out the pax wheels & tires for a standard set. It sounds like cless in post #541 has replaced them but had the dash warning light issue, & mwalters1 indicated in post #542 that you had to use the tire stems from the pax wheels to avoid the tire pressure warning message. I haven't seen a post or heard of anyone who has done all of this and it all worked. Anyone want to share their sucess story?
On a related note, I spoke to a bay area tire dealer who is pax certified. He says they've sucessfully replaced about a dozen worn pax tires onto pax wheels so far. They charge ~$190 for each tire, and the cost to replace all four tires with all mounting, etc expenses is ~$1100. It bothers me that Michelin is stating that the cost to replace the tires is 10-15% higher than replacing non-pax tires. Looking at tire rack, the OEM Michelin Energy LX4s go for $78. My math tells me that replacing the pax tires will be closer to 250% higher.
It seems to me that most people who like runflats have never had a flat with one in the middle of nowhere. If this ever happens to you, you may feel differently. There are way too many complaints for this to be a good system. I think there are more people who agree with red sox999 then disagree.
Nope, I have absolutely no association with Honda other than owning an '05 Touring R&N purchased on 2/23/05. When I bought it I considered the PAX system to be a wash (from and a pro and con standpoint) and still do.
For a mommymobile who doesn't get more than 100 miles from home the PAX can give one a sense of security. In the wide open western USA where cities are hours apart it is a different story. I would be tempted to buy an extra wheel and tire for those long, desolate trips. I used to pack a regular tire and wheel because I don't trust those donut spares for any great distances. When back in town take the extra wheel out. Yeah, I know they take up room and add weight so one must do what is best for your peace of mind.
CCC-no offense intended with my "could be a Honda rep" comment.
In any case, I could go on about why I bought the PAX version of the Odyssey--its a long story and basically I was ignorant on the facts. However, I must say I am very dissapointed with Honda on the way it was glossed over in the sales room to me. I feel I wasnt fully informed. Yes, perhaps I should have researched it more. But, truthfully, I never expected Honda to act this way and roll out a product in an idiotic manner in which they have. I expected more from Honda--that's why I have always bought their products.
I could go on but I'd just be repeating what others have stated about the PAX issue. But, there is one point I dont think anyone has touched on: Ive heard from several people that its only an issue really if you have a flat between Saturday afternoon and Sunday night (since the dealers are closed). But tell me this: what type of customer is driving a TOURING version of this van: yes, people who will take long trips in them with their family. And what day of the week would most likely be the day they are driving on these long trips? Yes, Sunday.
Lets get this noticed, log a complaint. LA Better Business Bureau: www.labbb.org
File Complaint against: American Honda Motor Company Incorporated 1919 Torrance Blvd. 500-2N-7A Torrance, CA 90501
I was quoted $1,020 for a mounted, balanced set (excl tax) at Tire Barn in Indy. One thing I found at the dealer when I was getting the new brake pads was that one tire was way out of balance, and wasn't mounted on the rim in the optimal spot to compensate for the shape of the tire (not perfectly round). Occasionally the van would shake. They road balanced the tire, but could not remount the tire since they did not have the equipment. Pretty bad that after nearly two years since the release of the van, the dealers don't have the equipment and only one tire dealer in town can change the tires.
Yes. My understanding is that it's supposed to be just like with a regular wheel & tire. In my previous post, I was referring to the shop having replaced a dozen pax tires onto the old pax wheels. The problem is that the tire shop needs to have the $13,000 machine to remove the old pax tire from the pax wheel & put the new pax tire back onto the old pax wheel. The tire shop I spoke to said they already had the machine before the pax craze hit. They bought it previously to handle super low-profile tires & they just needed to buy a few add-ons to get it to work with pax wheels & tires.
No offense taken. And I fully understand the Sunday thing - on our last trip we returned home on a Saturday in part to avoid Sunday exposure (but mostly because I wanted to watch the U.S. Open finale). However, the point I've been trying to make is that the lack of ready availability of PAX is hardly unique to this tire.
Here's another example: a guy who works for me just replaced the worn out conventional run-flat tires on his '04 Sienna AWD. Discount Tire here in Columbus had to order the tires from 2 stores in California as they didn't have them in stock and couldn't find them any closer! Now I don't know how long that took but am sure it was longer than 12 hours.
red_sox999: You make an excellent point on this issue. Since I am looking at vans, I made it a point to spend some time with the Service Manager at the Honda dealership that services my Accord, (talking about this issue). At the present time, this dealer has EIGHT, (8) tires on BACKORDER for two Honda vans! Please, someone please, explain how this new technology is helping the owners of these vehicles! Honda couldn't give me one of these vehicles with these tires. :confuse:
I noticed my neighbor driving an AWD sienna with a swing out spare tire carrier mounted on the back of his van. After questioning him about where he got it, he told me he had it made. It is mounted on a drop hitch receiver and is removable. It swings out of the way so the rear hatch can be opened. He had the same horrible experience on an open highway as I did with run-flats. The big question I have is why couldn't toyota design and offer this spare tire mount to its customers? My neighbor has conventional tires on his van now and it rides and handles much better. SO much for the "it was designed for run-flats" theory I was given by toyota. I love my van but I hate these tires. Toyota sent me a warranty extention on the run-flats as a good will gesture which I appreciate. But I would rather them give me a spare and a mount like my neighbor's wich would cost less than a new set of run-flats. And it would take care of the problem permanently.
mwalters1: Great Post (#52 Re: Run flat tires are a mistake [jeffreyh2])
Just wondering: have you or anyone else succesfully bought a spare EX-L donut tire and PAX valve stem and done a test run on your van to check for system error messages? If so, did it function correct and how much did it cost? Thanks very much.
I have not investigated further yet. My plan is still to check junk yards for a doughnut, and if I can't find one that way get one from a dealer. Regards, JEff
The trouble with the donut approach is that I wouldn't want to drive on it as far as may be necessary to get the run-flat taken care of. I trust donuts about like I would a flat run-flat and not any more miles either.
PAX valve stems. Where are you buying them and how much? I had emailed Michilen about my disatifaction with not being able to buy buy just a PAX tire and have it mounted on my current rims. A Rep called me Friday and stold me about Discount tires in Bloomingdale,IL had them. I called that dealer and they wanted $400.00 to $450.00 per tire mounted on my rims. The time estimate was four (4) hours per tire! The rep said that all Honda dealers get full rebate on rims of tires and rims replaced bcause the tire tread was worn out. If so why don't they pass that on to car owners who wear out the tires especially those who need tires in less than two years of ownership?
I sort of agree with you dsrtrat2, BUT having the donut would give you about double the extra travel distance with a flat (i.e. drive 150+ miles on the PAX and then switch it to the donut). This would never be an issue with normal tires since you could drive to any tire provider and have a new tire fitted in no time and be on your way. Obviously, with a flat PAX and 150+ miles still to go home, you could be faced with a night in a hotel (like I and many others have found to our disbelief.)
One of my staff has an '04 Sienna AWD. The OEM tires lasted - this may well be a record - almost 45,000 miles (and were quite gone at that point). His replacement cost OTD (including road hazard) was a tad over $800 at Discount Tire.
Okay, I realize that some people are highly dissatisfied with the concept of Michelin's PAX system. There's probably no way to convince those people, but here are some facts from my own Honda dealer...
1. The tires themselves are not yet fully available for order by the dealer on an individual basis. However, this is a temporary situation. Eventually, they will be able to stock and order PAX tires. My Honda dealer has purchased the equipment to mount PAX tires, even though they can't use them yet. This is happening across the country.
2. In the meantime, my dealer will swap out each tire and wheel unit for $190 each, plus tax. If I needed to replace all four tires on my Touring, the cost would be $760 for four tires/wheels, $40 labor, plus tax. So about $865 to replace all four tires (with new wheel units).
3. They anticipate that costs will continue to come down as acceptance of these tires becomes more prominent.
Let's not forget the inherent safety features that PAX provides, and HOW MANY LIVES THIS SYSTEM WILL SAVE ANNUALLY. There is no way for Edmunds posters to quantify that payback, but it is obviously very real. As a consumer, we cannot ignore the life-saving features of a run flat system that will not blow out and cause loss of control, injury, and deaths. This is easily quantifiable on a larger scale, even if a single consumer may care not to think about it. Open your eyes on this.
Secondly, PAX offers the major benefit (IMO) of not having to change the tire on the shoulder of a busy highway. That alone saves lives, injuries, and obviously, hassles. In most cases, you can drive the vehicle to safety.
Without the need for a spare in the vehicle, you have greater cargo capacity. Long term, with increased technology, vehicle weight and cost will also be reduced. Michelin is currently testing tires that require no inflation whatsoever. The tires are constructed with rubber internal ribs that are lighter, safer, will use less rubber long term due to greater durability, and again, require no spare.
It is inevitable that tires in the future will not require inflation. Just as radials changed tire technology 50 years ago, technologies like PAX are here to stay, and will continue to be improved upon.
The federal govt will also mandate tire pressure monitoring systems in future car models. Obviously, monitoring systems make sense, and are an integral part of systems like PAX. I appreciate the fact that when they designed the system, they built in the ability to ensure proper inflation. That alone will prevent a large number of flats, since Americans are notorious for driving around with under-inflated tires. IMO, poor treadwear is mostly due to (busy? ignorant? lazy?) drivers who don't bother to maintain proper tire inflation.
You may choose not to believe that the future of tires is changing, but it is inevitable. I realize the system is not perfect today, and represents a paradigm shift. And a few horror stories abound on these boards. But let's also not ignore the obvious benefits the PAX system delivers. And paying $865 to replace all four tires with wheels (with future costs to come down) does not give me a lot of heartburn, personally. I think the system makes sense.
"The tires themselves are not yet fully available for order by the dealer on an individual basis."
For which I fully blame Michelin. IMO, there is absolutely NO excuse for introducing a brand-new, proprietary tire/wheel system without ENSURING that replacement tires are available. Particularly two-years (and going into the 3rd year now) after introduction.
Michelin has been through this before. One would think they would have learned from the TRX debacle that if you introduce a proprietary system, you'd BETTER have replacement tires available or you risk pissing off a large number of customers.
"They anticipate that costs will continue to come down as acceptance of these tires becomes more prominent."
They ain't gonna get there by irritating current PAX users.
"There is no way for Edmunds posters to quantify that payback, but it is obviously very real."
Obviously??? I beg to differ.
"As a consumer, we cannot ignore the life-saving features of a run flat system that will not blow out and cause loss of control, injury, and deaths."
I wonder; with the VSC system standard on every Odyssey, would a blow-out on a non-PAX equipped minivan result in 'loss of control'? Personally, I think that 'loss of control' can be avoided without having to go to run-flat tires.
BTW - blow-outs don't CAUSE 'loss of control'; it's the driver freaking out and doing something stupid which causes loss of control. Car and Driver did a test back in either 2000 or 2001 using a '94 model Ford Explorer and a tire designed to 'blow out' be remote control. They started their tests at 30 mph and progressively went faster and faster. The last test was a blow-out at 70mph with the driver's hands OFF OF THE WHEEL. No loss of control. The driver gradually applied the brake and slowed the car down. At lower speeds, the car started to pull a bit toward the blown out side requiring MINOR correction from the driver.
Bottom line: we don't need RFT technology to 'save us' from blowouts. What we need is drivers who don't panic and nail the brakes when a blowout occurs.
"Secondly, PAX offers the major benefit (IMO) of not having to change the tire on the shoulder of a busy highway."
Absolutely. Of course, ANY RFT technology allows this as well. Did Michelin HAVE to develop a proprietary wheel/tire system in order to offer RFTs?
"Without the need for a spare in the vehicle, you have greater cargo capacity."
I'd like a show of hands from all the Touring owners who've packed stuff into the spare tire compartment on their van. To be honest, I've never been packed so tightly into our EX-L that I said to myself "gee, if only I could pack some more stuff into the spare tire compartment...."
"Just as radials changed tire technology 50 years ago, technologies like PAX are here to stay, and will continue to be improved upon."
Yes, technologies LIKE Pax; just not necessarily Pax. How far do you think the first radials would have gone toward acceptance if they REQUIRED a completely different wheel? How many folks would have jumped into a brand new technology WITH NO WAY TO GO BACK if they had problems?
From my point of view, I like the PAX concept. I like the idea of not being forced to the side of the road by a flat tire. I like the better ride characteristics which PAX offers over other RFTs.
The major problem I have is with the idea of a system which WON'T accept a 'regular' tire should I either not like the PAX tires (for whatever reason) or a PAX tire is unavailable. And if a company simply MUST introduce a wheel that can't accept 'regular' tires, they'd better make damn sure that finding a replacement is simply not a problem.
Rorr---you raise many good points. I don't think we're that far apart in our opinions, so I am not going to nitpick on your responses just to stretch out a pointless debate. From your post, it sounds like you are okay with PAX, provided Michelin had delivered on a satisfactory supply system of affordable replacements. I agree this remains a big "if."
You also lament the lack of choice. The rest of that story has yet to be written, depending on where PAX technology ends up. I suspect other tire makers (even if they agree that the PAX concept is sound) will do as little as possible to help a competitor with a patent. Free market works both ways.
My point with the enhanced storage and packaging benefits was not to literally suggest that the Touring has more storage with PAX. My point is that long term, PAX delivers better interior and storage options. And lighter weight. And superiority over other runflats that rely on super rigid sidewalls. And happier and safer consumers.
We can argue the safety benefits ad infinitum, but to me it's so obvious over the long run that I believe we will see run flat/airless technology to be commonplace by the time my children are driving. You said blowouts don't cause loss of control. I am merely saying that the frequency of people freaking out is diminished if the integrity of the tire is maintained, a la PAX. But let's not argue that since I have no data.
It's good to see society responding to this in our typical American way---a class action lawsuit.
"As a consumer, we cannot ignore the life-saving features of a run flat system that will not blow out and cause loss of control, injury, and deaths."
I wonder; with the VSC system standard on every Odyssey, would a blow-out on a non-PAX equipped minivan result in 'loss of control'? Personally, I think that 'loss of control' can be avoided without having to go to run-flat tires.
BTW - blow-outs don't CAUSE 'loss of control'; it's the driver freaking out and doing something stupid which causes loss of control. Car and Driver did a test back in either 2000 or 2001 using a '94 model Ford Explorer and a tire designed to 'blow out' be remote control. They started their tests at 30 mph and progressively went faster and faster. The last test was a blow-out at 70mph with the driver's hands OFF OF THE WHEEL. No loss of control. The driver gradually applied the brake and slowed the car down. At lower speeds, the car started to pull a bit toward the blown out side requiring MINOR correction from the driver.
I'd tend to agree. I think a RF tire in certain circumstances could also result in loss of control. Driver training / experience / reaction very important.
I agree that doughnuts have their shortcomings and I wouldn't want to drive on one any further than necessary. But when a run-flat has gone it's distance a doughnut will keep you going until you can get to a replacement, albeit at a slower speed.
I personally would prefer to have a full-size spare, but those days are in the past.
1. "Eventually" does me no good today, and may never come.
2. Your dealer does me no good, unless I happen to be in your area when I need a replacement. The dealer in my area wants $600 plus labor and tax. And with only 1000 dealers and tire stores around the country who have these things it's easy to get stuck in an area where there's nothing at all.
3. I anticipate that my costs will come down even sooner and more dramatically as soon as I replace these PAX rims and tires with standard wheels and tires.
So tell me, how many lives will the PAX tires save annually? How many lives are lost annually changing a flat by the side of the road? In any event, I note that my annual AAA dues are far less than the cost of a single PAX tire and wheel assembly - I don't need runflats to avoid dangerous tire changing, there are less expensive alternatives.
I agree that the future of tires is changing. Someday we'll be driving on DVDs, and when they arrive I'll buy them, but I don't like being forced to drive on Beta video tapes today to get the other vehicle features that I want.
"The major problem I have is with the idea of a system which WON'T accept a 'regular' tire should I either not like the PAX tires (for whatever reason) or a PAX tire is unavailable."
This is exactly correct. There are many features that are on the surface attractive to the consumer regarding PAX. However, attempting to force the comsumer to stay with this highly expenisive system when he wants to switch is unethical by Honda. The reason is we all know know it is probably fine to switch these wheels to EX-L standard rims/tires with a PAX tire stem. However Honda is invalidating owners warranties if they do so.
Yes, the court system is overused these days. But when companies like Honda pull stunts like this on unsuspecting consumers we have no choice but to take it to court. Many companies no longer have a moral compass and us consumers have to put them in front of a judge in order to rectify the matter as I no doubt will happen to Honda as 1,000s of consumers are put in a corner like the rest of us in this PAX fiasco.
I appreciate the level-headed response; so I'll try not to nitpick too much myself (no guarantees though... ).
I think it's a stretch to say I'm okay with PAX. I'm fine with the concept of run-flats and I like the IDEA of the inner support ring type technology which PAX uses.
However, my biggest gripe has ALWAYS been the fact that Michelin forces the consumer to stay with PAX for the life of the car.
With Toyota on their AWD Siennas with RFTs, if the owner doesn't like the ride, or the wear, or the noise, the tires can be swapped out for either another brand or regular non-RF tires. Yes, there's no convenient place in the car to stow a spare but this is a problem with the van and not with the RFTs.
With the Odyssey Touring, it's the exact opposite. In this case, Michelin is attempting to lock the consumer in to THEIR tire and taking choice out of the equation. So my complaint isn't with the technology; it's with the way it's being implemented.
My earlier comment regarding availability was simply saying that IF the PAX-type of technology (RFTs using an inner support ring) simply made it impossible to design a wheel which could use both PAX and non-PAX tires, then Michelin should have made damn sure that replacement availability was simply not an issue. Sadly, that has not been the case.
And I'll back off the whole 'blowout' issue since I understand the point you were making (the loss in control wouldn't have occurred without the blowout occuring in the first place).
Odds of a class action are remote, but one benefit would be that a judge or jury will rule on its merits. A court decision would weigh the overall impact on society, relative to how Michelin and Honda (and other makers) have acted in delivering and supporting the PAX system.
Red Sox suggested that Honda and Michelin have lost their moral compass. Not sure if I agree with that. Less than stellar execution do not equate to an intentional attempt to screw the customer.
Whether customers are truly locked into PAX for the life of the car (as you suggested) depends on whether this technology is accepted in the marketplace, and whether other makers offer competing products. Other makers have agreed to license it, so time will tell and we shall see. Tire Rack tells me they expect to carry PAX tires in the future, but no timeline provided.
Comparisons to TRX are a convenient way to fan the flames, but I am not sure if we are talking about apples and oranges here. Ultimately it's up to Michelin to get their $@*# together. Time will tell.
I have posted the following elsewhere but then found this forum--hope you will excuse the double post:
I have a 2004 AWD Sienna with Dunlop run-flat tires. My first pair were replaced at 9700 miles. I apparently blew out one of the tires, but did not get a tire pressure warning. I took the car into the dealer for poor handling, was told there was nothing wrong and drove the car 50 more miles until it became impossible to handle. I took it back to the dealer who then identified the blown tire, on the verge of disintegrating, but also noticed that all four tires were measured at 2/32 and all needed to be replaced. Dealer put in writing that the car, with those tires, was too dangerous to drive off the lot, so my car sat on the dealers lot for nearly 2 weeks until I found replacement tires via the internet. After 2 days of trying, the dealer told me he could not locate new tires for me.
Goodyear paid for a set of replacement tires at that time. Faced with the lousey choices of run-flat replacements, I opted to put on Blizzak winter run-flats and alternate them with the new Dunlops. So far, I have put 17K miles on the Dunlop run-flats. Last week, when I went in for service, reporting a noisey and choppy ride, I was told the tires were cupped and worn and needed to be replaced soon. When asked why these tires could not be replaced under the new warranty, the dealer told me that the tires were not so worn as to need immediate replacement so they were not eligible for replacement under the Toyota warranty. When I asked what the tire tread measured when they suggested I replace them soon, the service rep said that information had not been recorded but that the tires would definitely need to be replaced before winter. Of course, I have 600 miles left before the car hits 36K miles and the warranty period expires!
Any suggestions for me out there? I am going to discuss this further with the dealer's service manager to see what they are willing to do. I spoke with someone from the Toyota Experience Center (don't you just love that?) and was told that if the tires were not completely shot at 17K miles, then they would not replace under warranty. She did say I could seek reimbursement for the first set of tires and could in turn, purchase new tires with my reimbursement money. We'll see what happens.
This time, I am going to file a complaint with the Pennsylvania Attorney General. Has anyone out there taken this step?
I don't want to put run-flats back on. Can anyone suggest an alternative that you've been happy/or at least OK with?
I like car, but it's way more expensive than I ever figured. The gas mileage has been poorer than average and I am furious at what this tire fiasco has cost me!
I'll stop complaining and await your sage advice. Thanks RCK
I think any conventional tire from goodyear or most other major brands will blow the runflats away in tread life, ride quality, and handling. Contrary to the lie toyota gave me about the Sienna deing "designed" to have runflats, I have met quite a few people here in my town who have switched to conventional tires and had very good luck with them. I use conventional studded tires on seperate wheels in the winter time here and have no problems with them either. My van has 14,400 miles on it now. The runflats have around 9,000 miles on them and they are already starting to show quite a bit of ware on them. I dont expect them to last another 9,000 miles. I will be replacing them with conventional tires. This "technology" is garbage. If I can't trust them on an open highway what good are they?
In my post #575 I pointed out that Michelin pax press releases state that the pax tire replacement will run about 10-15% more than a regular tire, whereas the facts are that replacing pax tires costs 250% more. Let's add that to the class action suit.
Comments
The idea behind run-flats is that they won't leave you stranded on the highway where the failure occurs, not that they'll get you hundreds of miles home.
Honda sells other Odyssey trim levels, none of which are PAX equipped. If that's what you wanted, you should have bought one. If that's what you want now, trade your Touring for something else.
PAX is hardly alone in its lack of universal availability. The same can happen with most other run-flats as they are low demand and/or odd sizes. Heck, one of my employees was stranded on a freeway in a rural area awhile back because she couldn't locate a tire for her....'02 Taurus. It happens.
The Pax system should provide a replacement within 12 hrs according to the Michelin web site. It is not certain if the replacement arrived within 12hrs. The buyer's flat occurred Sunday afternoon. Since afternoon might be defined as ending at sunset, the latest time in the afternoon would be 8PM unless living near the arctic circle. The replacement was on Monday morning. Unless the replacement arrived before 8AM Monday, this is more than 12 hrs. If the time exceeded 12hrs, the unhappy Pax buyer is entitled to reimbursement for hotel expenses according to the Pax web site.
Lost work and school days are insignificant if you are not the one experiencing them. A big deal if you are the one inconvenienced.
Of course, if the inconvenience is suffered by someone else, it is easy to say it is trivial. I assure you that in that the customer was not happy and customer satisfaction is important. Defending a tire system that has serious problems in implementation and cost of replacements is not as important as satisfying the customer.
If the customer is unhappy, they will walk.
Trading a new touring for someting else is a waste of money. It might be realistic to buy a new set of tires and wheels and a spare that are not Pax and buy TPMS hardware to go along with it. This is shades of the Michelin TRX failure in the marketplace years ago. Theory was good. Implementation was weak. Replacements were expensive and hard to find, like Pax.
We've taken 4 long trips in our '05 Touring (to Florida, California, New Jersey, and South Carolina - all from Columbus, Ohio). In each case I understood that there was a possibility that we'd get stuck for awhile if there was a flat. And that getting stuck would be more than a little inconvenient. So far so good - no problem to date. For me, that is more than offset by the fact that I won't be stuck (or struck) changing a tire by the side of the road or unloading vacation gear to get to the spare.
Time will tell if the analogy to TRX is valid. Given that the technology has been licensed to other manufacturers, my guess is that PAX is the future.
With regards
Wojtek
Honda just doesn't seem to get the message. I too was left stranded on a Sunday afternoon close to Philadelphia and hours away from my home in Georgia. Usual story: no dealer was open, Michelin couldn't get a wheel to me, and 3 tire
dealers I went to had never heard of the PAX tires and refused to touch them due to liability issues (I practically begged one to put a donut tire on it). Bottom
line: I had to check into a hotel with my wife and 3 children and wait until Monday morning until Michelin got a wheel to me (which they did to their credit). My wife and I lost one day of work and my 3 children lost a day at
school and we were all very tired and left pitiful after spending hours on the phone by the highway. This is absolutely unforgivable in this day and age.
I complained to Michelin and Honda to take this rubbish PAX system off my van and replace it with normal wheels/tires. They both refused. So I filed a Better
Business complaint against Honda requesting they replace the PAX system with a normal set of wheels. The result? No reply.
If you too feel taken advantage of by Honda, then I urge you to file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau requesting Honda replace your PAX system with a normal set of wheels. My guess is they will not reply but at least people will be aware of this growing issue as we see more Touring owners in need of new tires.
Will Honda wait until the media get hold of this issue before they do something and give customers the option of switching away from this ridiculous system?
I filed my complaint against the Torrance branch of Honda since they are the warranty providers. Here's the details (it only takes a couple of minutes to file a complaint online).
LA Better Business Bureau:
www.labbb.org
File Complaint against:
American Honda Motor Company Incorporated
1919 Torrance Blvd. 500-2N-7A
Torrance, CA 90501
P.S. cccompson sounds suspiciously like a Honda customer service rep. His key words and Corporate Line bent are exactly what I heard when talking to Honda and Michelin's customer service. Don't be fooled.
For someone who's only been a member in here for about 3 days, you're awfully quick to pass judgement on members who've been in here for YEARS.
It will take a few years before a sufficient dealer network is created. And tire prices will be higher, but hopefully will come down with time.
I personally like the technology and couldn't be happier to own my Touring. I also fully researched this before I bought my van, and felt I made an educated and best decision for my family and me. I hope you find resolution, but please understand that many people also disagree with you. Good luck.
On a related note, I spoke to a bay area tire dealer who is pax certified. He says they've sucessfully replaced about a dozen worn pax tires onto pax wheels so far. They charge ~$190 for each tire, and the cost to replace all four tires with all mounting, etc expenses is ~$1100. It bothers me that Michelin is stating that the cost to replace the tires is 10-15% higher than replacing non-pax tires. Looking at tire rack, the OEM Michelin Energy LX4s go for $78. My math tells me that replacing the pax tires will be closer to 250% higher.
In the wide open western USA where cities are hours apart it is a different story. I would be tempted to buy an extra wheel and tire for those long, desolate trips. I used to pack a regular tire and wheel because I don't trust those donut spares for any great distances.
When back in town take the extra wheel out. Yeah, I know they take up room and add weight so one must do what is best for your peace of mind.
In any case, I could go on about why I bought the PAX version of the Odyssey--its a long story and basically I was ignorant on the facts. However, I must say I am very dissapointed with Honda on the way it was glossed over in the sales room to me. I feel I wasnt fully informed. Yes, perhaps I should have researched it more. But, truthfully, I never expected Honda to act this way and roll out a product in an idiotic manner in which they have. I expected more from Honda--that's why I have always bought their products.
I could go on but I'd just be repeating what others have stated about the PAX issue. But, there is one point I dont think anyone has touched on: Ive heard from several people that its only an issue really if you have a flat between Saturday afternoon and Sunday night (since the dealers are closed). But tell me this: what type of customer is driving a TOURING version of this van: yes, people who will take long trips in them with their family. And what day of the week would most likely be the day they are driving on these long trips? Yes, Sunday.
Lets get this noticed, log a complaint.
LA Better Business Bureau:
www.labbb.org
File Complaint against:
American Honda Motor Company Incorporated
1919 Torrance Blvd. 500-2N-7A
Torrance, CA 90501
Here's another example: a guy who works for me just replaced the worn out conventional run-flat tires on his '04 Sienna AWD. Discount Tire here in Columbus had to order the tires from 2 stores in California as they didn't have them in stock and couldn't find them any closer! Now I don't know how long that took but am sure it was longer than 12 hours.
You make an excellent point on this issue. Since I am looking at vans, I made it a point to spend some time with the Service Manager at the Honda dealership that services my Accord, (talking about this issue). At the present time, this dealer has EIGHT, (8) tires on BACKORDER for two Honda vans! Please, someone please, explain how this new technology is helping the owners of these vehicles! Honda couldn't give me one of these vehicles with these tires. :confuse:
Just wondering: have you or anyone else succesfully bought a spare EX-L donut tire and PAX valve stem and done a test run on your van to check for system error messages? If so, did it function correct and how much did it cost?
Thanks very much.
Regards, JEff
I had emailed Michilen about my disatifaction with not being able to buy buy just a PAX tire and have it mounted on my current rims. A Rep called me Friday and stold me about Discount tires in Bloomingdale,IL had them. I called that dealer and they wanted $400.00 to $450.00 per tire mounted on my rims. The time estimate was four (4) hours per tire!
The rep said that all Honda dealers get full rebate on rims of tires and rims replaced bcause the tire tread was worn out. If so why don't they pass that on to car owners who wear out the tires especially those who need tires in less than two years of ownership?
This would never be an issue with normal tires since you could drive to any tire provider and have a new tire fitted in no time and be on your way. Obviously, with a flat PAX and 150+ miles still to go home, you could be faced with a night in a hotel (like I and many others have found to our disbelief.)
Owners File Class-Action Suit Against Toyota, Tire Maker
UPDATED: 5:53 pm EST December 15, 2005
CLEVELAND -- A popular new tire that is becoming standard on a growing number of cars is generating hundreds of complaints.
Many drivers say it has a flaw, and when they try to replace it they run into another problem, reported 5 On Your Side's John Matarese.
The new type of tire is supposed to never go flat. If you run over a nail, you can drive all the way home.
However, many owners of these tires are unhappy.
Tom Lehn says the tires are the worst feature on his new Toyota Sienna minivan.
"You can see it's worn all over, but especially at the edges. It's wearing faster than expected," said Lehn.
Lehn bought the run flat tires to keep his wife and kids safe, so they wouldn't be stranded by a flat.
Then he learned that the tires can cost twice as much as a regular tire.
"It was $275 for one tire," said Lehn.
Tire shop owner Dan Brogan is not surprised by the high cost.
He said run flats are costly to produce because of the special hardened rubber sidewalls they require, which allow them to keep going with no air.
And that tougher rubber won't last as long.
"You can't have everything. A tire that runs flat and lot of mileage out of it, you can't have both," said Brogan.
But some car owners don't buy it, and have filed a class action lawsuit against Toyota and Dunlop tires.
The suit claims Sienna minivan tires last only 10,000 to 20,000 miles, and have to be replaced annually at cost of $1,300 or more.
Toyota and Dunlop won't comment on pending litigation, but Toyota dealers say the tires should last 30,000 miles in normal use.
Despite their price, run flats can still be a good feature if you do a lot of interstate driving or commute through a rough part of town.
That peace of mind might be worth $250.
http://www.newsnet5.com/dontwasteyourmoney/5485329/detail.html
1. The tires themselves are not yet fully available for order by the dealer on an individual basis. However, this is a temporary situation. Eventually, they will be able to stock and order PAX tires. My Honda dealer has purchased the equipment to mount PAX tires, even though they can't use them yet. This is happening across the country.
2. In the meantime, my dealer will swap out each tire and wheel unit for $190 each, plus tax. If I needed to replace all four tires on my Touring, the cost would be $760 for four tires/wheels, $40 labor, plus tax. So about $865 to replace all four tires (with new wheel units).
3. They anticipate that costs will continue to come down as acceptance of these tires becomes more prominent.
Let's not forget the inherent safety features that PAX provides, and HOW MANY LIVES THIS SYSTEM WILL SAVE ANNUALLY. There is no way for Edmunds posters to quantify that payback, but it is obviously very real. As a consumer, we cannot ignore the life-saving features of a run flat system that will not blow out and cause loss of control, injury, and deaths. This is easily quantifiable on a larger scale, even if a single consumer may care not to think about it. Open your eyes on this.
Secondly, PAX offers the major benefit (IMO) of not having to change the tire on the shoulder of a busy highway. That alone saves lives, injuries, and obviously, hassles. In most cases, you can drive the vehicle to safety.
Without the need for a spare in the vehicle, you have greater cargo capacity. Long term, with increased technology, vehicle weight and cost will also be reduced. Michelin is currently testing tires that require no inflation whatsoever. The tires are constructed with rubber internal ribs that are lighter, safer, will use less rubber long term due to greater durability, and again, require no spare.
It is inevitable that tires in the future will not require inflation. Just as radials changed tire technology 50 years ago, technologies like PAX are here to stay, and will continue to be improved upon.
The federal govt will also mandate tire pressure monitoring systems in future car models. Obviously, monitoring systems make sense, and are an integral part of systems like PAX. I appreciate the fact that when they designed the system, they built in the ability to ensure proper inflation. That alone will prevent a large number of flats, since Americans are notorious for driving around with under-inflated tires. IMO, poor treadwear is mostly due to (busy? ignorant? lazy?) drivers who don't bother to maintain proper tire inflation.
You may choose not to believe that the future of tires is changing, but it is inevitable. I realize the system is not perfect today, and represents a paradigm shift. And a few horror stories abound on these boards. But let's also not ignore the obvious benefits the PAX system delivers. And paying $865 to replace all four tires with wheels (with future costs to come down) does not give me a lot of heartburn, personally. I think the system makes sense.
For which I fully blame Michelin. IMO, there is absolutely NO excuse for introducing a brand-new, proprietary tire/wheel system without ENSURING that replacement tires are available. Particularly two-years (and going into the 3rd year now) after introduction.
Michelin has been through this before. One would think they would have learned from the TRX debacle that if you introduce a proprietary system, you'd BETTER have replacement tires available or you risk pissing off a large number of customers.
"They anticipate that costs will continue to come down as acceptance of these tires becomes more prominent."
They ain't gonna get there by irritating current PAX users.
"There is no way for Edmunds posters to quantify that payback, but it is obviously very real."
Obviously??? I beg to differ.
"As a consumer, we cannot ignore the life-saving features of a run flat system that will not blow out and cause loss of control, injury, and deaths."
I wonder; with the VSC system standard on every Odyssey, would a blow-out on a non-PAX equipped minivan result in 'loss of control'? Personally, I think that 'loss of control' can be avoided without having to go to run-flat tires.
BTW - blow-outs don't CAUSE 'loss of control'; it's the driver freaking out and doing something stupid which causes loss of control. Car and Driver did a test back in either 2000 or 2001 using a '94 model Ford Explorer and a tire designed to 'blow out' be remote control. They started their tests at 30 mph and progressively went faster and faster. The last test was a blow-out at 70mph with the driver's hands OFF OF THE WHEEL. No loss of control. The driver gradually applied the brake and slowed the car down. At lower speeds, the car started to pull a bit toward the blown out side requiring MINOR correction from the driver.
Bottom line: we don't need RFT technology to 'save us' from blowouts. What we need is drivers who don't panic and nail the brakes when a blowout occurs.
"Secondly, PAX offers the major benefit (IMO) of not having to change the tire on the shoulder of a busy highway."
Absolutely. Of course, ANY RFT technology allows this as well. Did Michelin HAVE to develop a proprietary wheel/tire system in order to offer RFTs?
"Without the need for a spare in the vehicle, you have greater cargo capacity."
I'd like a show of hands from all the Touring owners who've packed stuff into the spare tire compartment on their van. To be honest, I've never been packed so tightly into our EX-L that I said to myself "gee, if only I could pack some more stuff into the spare tire compartment...."
"Just as radials changed tire technology 50 years ago, technologies like PAX are here to stay, and will continue to be improved upon."
Yes, technologies LIKE Pax; just not necessarily Pax. How far do you think the first radials would have gone toward acceptance if they REQUIRED a completely different wheel? How many folks would have jumped into a brand new technology WITH NO WAY TO GO BACK if they had problems?
From my point of view, I like the PAX concept. I like the idea of not being forced to the side of the road by a flat tire. I like the better ride characteristics which PAX offers over other RFTs.
The major problem I have is with the idea of a system which WON'T accept a 'regular' tire should I either not like the PAX tires (for whatever reason) or a PAX tire is unavailable. And if a company simply MUST introduce a wheel that can't accept 'regular' tires, they'd better make damn sure that finding a replacement is simply not a problem.
You also lament the lack of choice. The rest of that story has yet to be written, depending on where PAX technology ends up. I suspect other tire makers (even if they agree that the PAX concept is sound) will do as little as possible to help a competitor with a patent. Free market works both ways.
My point with the enhanced storage and packaging benefits was not to literally suggest that the Touring has more storage with PAX. My point is that long term, PAX delivers better interior and storage options. And lighter weight. And superiority over other runflats that rely on super rigid sidewalls. And happier and safer consumers.
We can argue the safety benefits ad infinitum, but to me it's so obvious over the long run that I believe we will see run flat/airless technology to be commonplace by the time my children are driving. You said blowouts don't cause loss of control. I am merely saying that the frequency of people freaking out is diminished if the integrity of the tire is maintained, a la PAX. But let's not argue that since I have no data.
It's good to see society responding to this in our typical American way---a class action lawsuit.
I wonder; with the VSC system standard on every Odyssey, would a blow-out on a non-PAX equipped minivan result in 'loss of control'? Personally, I think that 'loss of control' can be avoided without having to go to run-flat tires.
BTW - blow-outs don't CAUSE 'loss of control'; it's the driver freaking out and doing something stupid which causes loss of control. Car and Driver did a test back in either 2000 or 2001 using a '94 model Ford Explorer and a tire designed to 'blow out' be remote control. They started their tests at 30 mph and progressively went faster and faster. The last test was a blow-out at 70mph with the driver's hands OFF OF THE WHEEL. No loss of control. The driver gradually applied the brake and slowed the car down. At lower speeds, the car started to pull a bit toward the blown out side requiring MINOR correction from the driver.
I'd tend to agree. I think a RF tire in certain circumstances could also result in loss of control. Driver training / experience / reaction very important.
I agree that doughnuts have their shortcomings and I wouldn't want to drive on one any further than necessary. But when a run-flat has gone it's distance a doughnut will keep you going until you can get to a replacement, albeit at a slower speed.
I personally would prefer to have a full-size spare, but those days are in the past.
Regards, JEff
1. "Eventually" does me no good today, and may never come.
2. Your dealer does me no good, unless I happen to be in your area when I need a replacement. The dealer in my area wants $600 plus labor and tax. And with only 1000 dealers and tire stores around the country who have these things it's easy to get stuck in an area where there's nothing at all.
3. I anticipate that my costs will come down even sooner and more dramatically as soon as I replace these PAX rims and tires with standard wheels and tires.
So tell me, how many lives will the PAX tires save annually? How many lives are lost annually changing a flat by the side of the road? In any event, I note that my annual AAA dues are far less than the cost of a single PAX tire and wheel assembly - I don't need runflats to avoid dangerous tire changing, there are less expensive alternatives.
I agree that the future of tires is changing. Someday we'll be driving on DVDs, and when they arrive I'll buy them, but I don't like being forced to drive on Beta video tapes today to get the other vehicle features that I want.
Regards, JEff
This is exactly correct. There are many features that are on the surface attractive to the consumer regarding PAX. However, attempting to force the comsumer to stay with this highly expenisive system when he wants to switch is unethical by Honda. The reason is we all know know it is probably fine to switch these wheels to EX-L standard rims/tires with a PAX tire stem. However Honda is invalidating owners warranties if they do so.
Yes, the court system is overused these days. But when companies like Honda pull stunts like this on unsuspecting consumers we have no choice but to take it to court. Many companies no longer have a moral compass and us consumers have to put them in front of a judge in order to rectify the matter as I no doubt will happen to Honda as 1,000s of consumers are put in a corner like the rest of us in this PAX fiasco.
I think it's a stretch to say I'm okay with PAX. I'm fine with the concept of run-flats and I like the IDEA of the inner support ring type technology which PAX uses.
However, my biggest gripe has ALWAYS been the fact that Michelin forces the consumer to stay with PAX for the life of the car.
With Toyota on their AWD Siennas with RFTs, if the owner doesn't like the ride, or the wear, or the noise, the tires can be swapped out for either another brand or regular non-RF tires. Yes, there's no convenient place in the car to stow a spare but this is a problem with the van and not with the RFTs.
With the Odyssey Touring, it's the exact opposite. In this case, Michelin is attempting to lock the consumer in to THEIR tire and taking choice out of the equation. So my complaint isn't with the technology; it's with the way it's being implemented.
My earlier comment regarding availability was simply saying that IF the PAX-type of technology (RFTs using an inner support ring) simply made it impossible to design a wheel which could use both PAX and non-PAX tires, then Michelin should have made damn sure that replacement availability was simply not an issue. Sadly, that has not been the case.
And I'll back off the whole 'blowout' issue since I understand the point you were making (the loss in control wouldn't have occurred without the blowout occuring in the first place).
Red Sox suggested that Honda and Michelin have lost their moral compass. Not sure if I agree with that. Less than stellar execution do not equate to an intentional attempt to screw the customer.
Whether customers are truly locked into PAX for the life of the car (as you suggested) depends on whether this technology is accepted in the marketplace, and whether other makers offer competing products. Other makers have agreed to license it, so time will tell and we shall see. Tire Rack tells me they expect to carry PAX tires in the future, but no timeline provided.
Comparisons to TRX are a convenient way to fan the flames, but I am not sure if we are talking about apples and oranges here. Ultimately it's up to Michelin to get their $@*# together. Time will tell.
I have a 2004 AWD Sienna with Dunlop run-flat tires. My first pair were replaced at 9700 miles. I apparently blew out one of the tires, but did not get a tire pressure warning. I took the car into the dealer for poor handling, was told there was nothing wrong and drove the car 50 more miles until it became impossible to handle. I took it back to the dealer who then identified the blown tire, on the verge of disintegrating, but also noticed that all four tires were measured at 2/32 and all needed to be replaced. Dealer put in writing that the car, with those tires, was too dangerous to drive off the lot, so my car sat on the dealers lot for nearly 2 weeks until I found replacement tires via the internet. After 2 days of trying, the dealer told me he could not locate new tires for me.
Goodyear paid for a set of replacement tires at that time. Faced with the lousey choices of run-flat replacements, I opted to put on Blizzak winter run-flats and alternate them with the new Dunlops. So far, I have put 17K miles on the Dunlop run-flats. Last week, when I went in for service, reporting a noisey and choppy ride, I was told the tires were cupped and worn and needed to be replaced soon. When asked why these tires could not be replaced under the new warranty, the dealer told me that the tires were not so worn as to need immediate replacement so they were not eligible for replacement under the Toyota warranty. When I asked what the tire tread measured when they suggested I replace them soon, the service rep said that information had not been recorded but that the tires would definitely need to be replaced before winter. Of course, I have 600 miles left before the car hits 36K miles and the warranty period expires!
Any suggestions for me out there? I am going to discuss this further with the dealer's service manager to see what they are willing to do. I spoke with someone from the Toyota Experience Center (don't you just love that?) and was told that if the tires were not completely shot at 17K miles, then they would not replace under warranty. She did say I could seek reimbursement for the first set of tires and could in turn, purchase new tires with my reimbursement money. We'll see what happens.
This time, I am going to file a complaint with the Pennsylvania Attorney General.
Has anyone out there taken this step?
I don't want to put run-flats back on. Can anyone suggest an alternative that you've been happy/or at least OK with?
I like car, but it's way more expensive than I ever figured. The gas mileage has been poorer than average and I am furious at what this tire fiasco has cost me!
I'll stop complaining and await your sage advice. Thanks RCK
The gentleman above has a good idea too: contact your states attorney general.