Automaking is fundamentally a game of economy of scale. Return on capital can be improved even if marginal unit profit goes down simply because more unit sales can help better amortize R&D cost as well as the capital equipment cost of setting up a production line. That is a path most automakers are following these days:
MB has been steadily moving down market over the past decade to increase unit volume;
BMW has been doing the same thing;
Prosche is building more than half its vehicle sales on a VW platform; need I say more?
Audi and VW platform sharing has become the rule rather than exception;
Saab, Volvo and Jag have all sold themselves to GM and Ford, in order to improve economy of scale.
Considering that the last generation Civic cost $4 billion in R&D and capital equipment, and the entire budget for the Maybach project is only half a billion . . . it doesn't take a genius to figure out that economy of scale is the key . . . it's either achieving that or extinction/being bought out.
but I just read last month about Toyota will becoming the #1 car manufacture in NA later this year! Taking over GM. GM has held that spot for 70 yrs. SAM please explain how Toyota will just fold up in 5yrs :confuse:
GDP = Revenue population: vehicles sold per capita income: average transaction price per vehicle. Stated in these terms, toyota should not just measure itself in terms of vehicles sold, revenue etc.
Tell me, which book (finance or other) says that? Analogies can be made only with facts to support. IMO, capital gain per stock share (per unit time) is the way to go, simple and easy.
It should measure itself in terms of price per vehicle sold. Only when it can garner more price per vehicle sold every year compared to competition, can it claim that its making progress.
Rolls Royce is about the top sedan maker in terms of price per vehicle sold. Yet it got bankrupted and sold to the not so "progressive" BMW. Same goes for Jaguar, which was sold to Ford. How ironic!
In last 5 decades after coming to US, they have just 13% of market share. This simple fact can tell us a lot about the mammoth challenge against mighty Ford.
Do you realize the mighty Ford became mighty by selling the ultra cheap T model? Not much "progress" in that department, right? And how much share does Ford have in Japan?
As we speak, Toyota is already world's largest automaker by units sold. Not to mention it is the largest automaker in terms of market capitalization, about 20 times larger than GM! (Check NYSE if you are in doubt). In addition, the largest net profit per year, more than the sum of all non-Japanese automakers combined! :shades:
We do divert our attention once in a while from the main topic, but its a healthy discussion, so thanks for a stimulating and sometimes heated discussion.
Most of you might disagree with me, but thats great because only through a thorough debate and sometimes diametrically opposing views can we arrive at sound conclusions.
But I do not want anyone to cast aspersions on my degrees. In all humility I deserve credit for all the work I did.
Try to be more tolerant and civilized, and less violent and you will see we are not that much different in our views.
Now how many of you think lexus LS will have night vision like mercedes S550.
Also, does anyone have an idea what J Press meant by "new standards in passive safety".
If anyone know inside information about these new innovations pass them around.
I think that the LS might have night view but i'm not sure. Most likely the lS will have it because it has all the other new innovations like the distronic plus and the brakeassist.
I never thought I would defend merc. But here it goes.
Merc might be biased, but he certainly seems to have a college education, maybe not MIT, but no Chico state either. So please don't compare him to well, MIT graduates :P
Several insulting and personally-directed posts have been removed, as will all that follow. Please remember that if you see a post you don't like you have two options: 1) Respond to the comments made in the post and NOT to the member or his/her intellect, personality, etc. 2) Ignore it.
Additionally, this is not the topic in which to talk about Toyota in general. The News & Views board is a great place for that conversation, but in here we're sticking close to info on the upcoming Lexus LS.
Thanks for your cooperation!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Thanks to the Host for the comments. I was about to make the same observation. In the last 50 or so posts, I did not see much related to the subject of the forum.
I agree - Toyota USED to be painfully bland - and Nissan woke up first among the Asians. But now, Toyota has hired some artists evidently, because I find their designs quite attractive, in a still dignified way. And getting better all the time.
The danger for Toyota comes from two potenialities. 1) If they become inefficient as they become so large, just like GM, where nobody can make a decision, and those all made by Committe seem to be wrong, and 2) Korea and China will be formidable competition in the future, that Toyota will have to deal with much better than the big 3 did in America - which is to say, just arrogantly ignor it until it's too late, such as now.
This board has been silent for several days now so let's get going with more discussions. Let's talk about car shows.
This is mainly for all you car show experts. How many car shows are there annually? I thought that there were only a handful, but it seems like there are quite a few. I see in the local paper today that at the Chicago Car Show this week the new ES350 was unveiled by Lexus. At the opening of the show, Jim Press, president and COO of Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A. gave an optimistic speech about the state of the industry despite layoffs and billion dollar losses by Ford & GM. Among other things he said, "we don't have an ailing industry". He also stated that it was a wise move by GM to halve its dividend and curb executive salaries and retiree pensions. I thought this was good PR by Press. It's easy for him to say, right ;-)?
But getting back to my main point, does every major U.S. city have a car show of some kind? I know that St. Louis also has a car show. Is the Detroit Show (which I attended) the largest in the world? Finally, has anyone heard any more details about the New York Auto Show coming up in April? This is when the world class LS600h is suppose to be unveiled.
2007 Lexus LS is the title and theme of this forum. Car Shows in general are not germain to the subject of this forum. I'm sure there is a better place for posting "car shows". I believe the reason this forum has been quiet lately is the host cautioned that the postings on this forum had strayed from the subject "2007 Lexus LS".
I would also love to know more details about the LS 600h, but as well the LS 460. So far we haven't heard anything definitive about the car's specs; isn't it out soon?
This was posted on the 8th on the Lexus.com website:
High Output V8, World's First Eight-Speed Transmission
The LS will be powered by an all-new highly advanced 4.6-liter V8 engine that will produce approximately 380 horsepower and 370 pound-feet of torque. Combined with an eight-speed automatic transmission, a world-first, the LS 460 will travel from zero-to-sixty miles per hour in less than 5.5 seconds. With that level of performance, the new LS will achieve an estimated combined city/highway mileage in the mid-20s. Lexus is targeting an Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle II (ULEV II) rating for the LS 460.
Hardly sounds definitive to me. What I was looking for something measurable. Thanks, though.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Does anyone have any idea how firm you can make the suspension? Any handling numbers? How will the LS460 compare to the GS430. I currently have a GS400 and would get the LS460 instead of another GS if they have improved the cornering.
Or whatever they choose to call it, if handling is your game, stick with the GS. It's designed to run with 5-series, not more land-yacht full-size S-Class and such.
The LS is supposed to be supremely competent, not a spirited or entertaining handler.
Performance Engine 4.6-liter Direct- Injection V8 4.6-liter Direct- Injection V8 Horsepower [1] 380 380 Eight-speed automatic transmission Standard Standard 0-60 MPH [1] Less than 5.5 seconds Less than 5.5 seconds
Combined Fuel Economy [1] Mid-20 MPG Mid-20 MPG Vehicle Dynamic Integrated Management (VDIM) [5] Standard Standard
Luxury Leather-trimmed interior Standard Standard Interior wood trim Standard Standard SmartAccess with push-button Start/Stop Standard Standard Mark Levinson® 19-speaker Reference Surround Sound System [4] with 7.1 channel architecture Optional Optional 8-GB audio server Optional Optional Front and rear climate-comfort seats Optional Optional Premium Four-Passenger Seat Package with rear-seat entertainment system N/A Optional Rear-seat massager N/A Optional (right rear seat only) 4-zone climate control with Air Purifier Optional Optional
Safety/Security Lexus voice-activated HDD Navigation System [2] with Bluetooth® technology [3] Optional Standard One-touch, open/close trunk Optional Standard
Does the above help? I suppose you are looking for something more specific that that given by Lexus on their web site as "Specifications".
As an owner of 2 430s, I think the HP boost to 380 is a great move. I'd like to see them put better tires (ie. seriously spec'd for the vehicle) as original issue. The tires go hand in hand with tweaking the suspension; keep it comfortable with as much edge as you can muster.
Make the ipod easy to integrate with the audio with info available on the NAV screen or on the gauges like MB does.
The consensus from many here "in the the know" was that it will not be AWD. But I don't think this is the 100% truth. The AWD is supposed to be limited to the LS600h.
If it was gonna be there at launch, they would've said so at NAIAS, but I would be surprised if they didn't add this feature after a couple of years, to keep stirring the pot, if you will.
Regarding the LS460L, many of the reviews, including this one, indicate a plural description of the rear reclining seat(s) with foot rest(s) . . . but, somehow I was under the impression that Lexus made the decision that only the rear passenger on the right side can have that foot rest feature.
Since it does initially seem more logical that the feature would be on both sides, I would guess that most reviewers just make that assumption.
So . . . which is it definatively? Are the reviewers correct that the foot rest is on both sides? . . . or did Lexus actually limit the rear foot rest to only the right side? . . . And if so, what's the deeper thinking here?
My only guess is that if the key was off and two foot rests were left in the up position, that the rear access would then be blocked, so, therefore they decided to force the access to the left side. But, it makes sense that the foot rest should automatically lower as the passenger left the vehicle, anyway, to prevent it from being left in the up position. But, perhaps the foot rest in the up position doesn't block the access anyway, and it's position is not relevant to the limitation of only one foot rest . . . IF there is only one. ?????????
When I read that the footrest was only on the right rear side, my assumption was that the position required the seat in front of it to be pushed so far forward that it would make driving impractical. Whether that's true or not is another matter....
When I read that the footrest was only on the right rear side, my assumption was that the position required the seat in front of it to be pushed so far forward that it would make driving impractical. Whether that's true or not is another matter....
garyh1 - That's pretty good reasoning. So . . . we can now add another theory to the mix. :confuse:
If one is driving in the United States, and has an occasion to use the foot rest, then they should have taken a plane...I had the UL and unfortunately anytime anyone got in the rear seat they had had a few drinks and forgot to use the massaging seat....Most people will very rarely use all the assets back there so save your money Tony
I agree. All that back seat stuff is intended for people who have a chauffeur to drive them around. Those of us who buy the car because we love to drive it have no use for L version.
I can understand the "no need comment" about the footrest and fancy seat gadgetry but I totally disagree with any comments on the L version of the LS460. The LWB car will be the more luxurious and smoother riding car and in general this segment will be dominated by 202"+ cars in the future - once the LWB LS460L takes hold. LT resale values will likely do better in the LWB model IMO.
It has been a quite board since the guy gave up on convincing us that Toyota was going down because it did not offer a V12! Let's get this thing rolling again. Do we need auto park, laser cruise control, 4 zone AC, foot rest for the back seat, night vision, etc? At first, it seems like we do not need them but perhaps after having them we cannot imagine a car without them. Remember power locks, power windows, Power seats, auto transmit ions, auto lights, rain sensing wipers, auto folding mirrors, smart keys, voice activated NAVIs, back up cameras, air conditioned seats, etc. When you are used to these goodies, try driving a car that does not have them! Oh, I need keys in my hands to get in, turn on the lights, turn on the wipers, remember where I am supposed to go, etc. You get the message. But you say that all that stuff is for old men, we need a mean driving machine for those of us who love to drive. I enjoy driving but is more like a chore than recreation. Am I the only one out there with this attitude? I want a nice, comfortable, safe luxurious car that makes my life easier.
I whole-heartedly agree with everything you say. I want a car that is luxurious, technologically advanced, very safe, environmentally friendly, and very energy efficient. That is why I am willing to wait a few months longer for the LS600h as opposed to the LS460L. From everything I have heard, this automobile will be "out of this world".
Unless they have kids and teenagers who will try anything to impress their friends , I wish my dad would have got the UL package, would've made the ride a lot better.
Comments
MB has been steadily moving down market over the past decade to increase unit volume;
BMW has been doing the same thing;
Prosche is building more than half its vehicle sales on a VW platform; need I say more?
Audi and VW platform sharing has become the rule rather than exception;
Saab, Volvo and Jag have all sold themselves to GM and Ford, in order to improve economy of scale.
Considering that the last generation Civic cost $4 billion in R&D and capital equipment, and the entire budget for the Maybach project is only half a billion . . . it doesn't take a genius to figure out that economy of scale is the key . . . it's either achieving that or extinction/being bought out.
population: vehicles sold
per capita income: average transaction price per vehicle.
Stated in these terms, toyota should not just measure itself in terms of vehicles sold, revenue etc.
Tell me, which book (finance or other) says that? Analogies can be made only with facts to support.
IMO, capital gain per stock share (per unit time) is the way to go, simple and easy.
It should measure itself in terms of price per vehicle sold.
Only when it can garner more price per vehicle sold every year compared to competition, can it claim that its making progress.
Rolls Royce is about the top sedan maker in terms of price per vehicle sold. Yet it got bankrupted and sold to the not so "progressive" BMW. Same goes for Jaguar, which was sold to Ford. How ironic!
In last 5 decades after coming to US, they have just 13% of market share. This simple fact can tell us a lot about the mammoth challenge against mighty Ford.
Do you realize the mighty Ford became mighty by selling the ultra cheap T model? Not much "progress" in that department, right? And how much share does Ford have in Japan?
As we speak, Toyota is already world's largest automaker by units sold. Not to mention it is the largest automaker in terms of market capitalization, about 20 times larger than GM! (Check NYSE if you are in doubt). In addition, the largest net profit per year, more than the sum of all non-Japanese automakers combined! :shades:
V12's and the "end" of Toyota???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Know what I mean?
TagMan
Most of you might disagree with me, but thats great because only through a thorough debate and sometimes diametrically opposing views can we arrive at sound conclusions.
But I do not want anyone to cast aspersions on my degrees. In all humility I deserve credit for all the work I did.
Try to be more tolerant and civilized, and less violent and you will see we are not that much different in our views.
Now how many of you think lexus LS will have night vision like mercedes S550.
Also, does anyone have an idea what J Press meant by "new standards in passive safety".
If anyone know inside information about these new innovations pass them around.
Merc might be biased, but he certainly seems to have a college education, maybe not MIT, but no Chico state either. So please don't compare him to well, MIT graduates :P
Feel free to take a shot whenever you wish!
A troll here and there is fine by me. I think it helps us appreciate a quality post when it is provided.
DrFill
1) Respond to the comments made in the post and NOT to the member or his/her intellect, personality, etc.
2) Ignore it.
Additionally, this is not the topic in which to talk about Toyota in general. The News & Views board is a great place for that conversation, but in here we're sticking close to info on the upcoming Lexus LS.
Thanks for your cooperation!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
This is mainly for all you car show experts. How many car shows are there annually? I thought that there were only a handful, but it seems like there are quite a few. I see in the local paper today that at the Chicago Car Show this week the new ES350 was unveiled by Lexus. At the opening of the show, Jim Press, president and COO of Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A. gave an optimistic speech about the state of the industry despite layoffs and billion dollar losses by Ford & GM. Among other things he said, "we don't have an ailing industry". He also stated that it was a wise move by GM to halve its dividend and curb executive salaries and retiree pensions. I thought this was good PR by Press. It's easy for him to say, right ;-)?
But getting back to my main point, does every major U.S. city have a car show of some kind? I know that St. Louis also has a car show. Is the Detroit Show (which I attended) the largest in the world? Finally, has anyone heard any more details about the New York Auto Show coming up in April? This is when the world class LS600h is suppose to be unveiled.
This was posted on the 8th on the Lexus.com website:
High Output V8, World's First Eight-Speed Transmission
The LS will be powered by an all-new highly advanced 4.6-liter V8 engine that will produce approximately 380 horsepower and 370 pound-feet of torque. Combined with an eight-speed automatic transmission, a world-first, the LS 460 will travel from zero-to-sixty miles per hour in less than 5.5 seconds. With that level of performance, the new LS will achieve an estimated combined city/highway mileage in the mid-20s. Lexus is targeting an Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle II (ULEV II) rating for the LS 460.
Hardly sounds definitive to me. What I was looking for something measurable. Thanks, though.
I think those are measureable.
It would help if you didn't tell me what I already knew. Not trying to be a smart***, but I am just returning the favor!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
The LS is supposed to be supremely competent, not a spirited or entertaining handler.
DrFill
I was more in the line of insulting myself than anything else... I didn't see the point of his post other than belittling me.
Just trying to find some facts out.
Is there an event the LS is going to be shown at again? Maybe this will be when the official specs are given?
24 is an awesome show isn't it?
The car he was driving was the handsome GS 430.
Geeze, Lynne is a gutless tool hey? I say,"You're Fired."
Length (inches) 198.0 202.8
Wheelbase (inches) 116.9 121.7
Width (inches) 73.8 73.8
Height (inches) 58.1 58.1
Performance
Engine 4.6-liter Direct-
Injection V8 4.6-liter Direct-
Injection V8
Horsepower [1] 380 380
Eight-speed automatic transmission Standard Standard
0-60 MPH [1] Less than
5.5 seconds Less than 5.5 seconds
Combined Fuel Economy [1] Mid-20 MPG Mid-20 MPG
Vehicle Dynamic Integrated Management (VDIM) [5] Standard Standard
Luxury
Leather-trimmed interior Standard Standard
Interior wood trim Standard Standard
SmartAccess with push-button Start/Stop Standard Standard
Mark Levinson® 19-speaker Reference Surround Sound System [4]
with 7.1 channel architecture Optional Optional
8-GB audio server Optional Optional
Front and rear climate-comfort seats Optional Optional
Premium Four-Passenger Seat Package
with rear-seat entertainment system N/A Optional
Rear-seat massager N/A Optional
(right rear seat only)
4-zone climate control with Air Purifier Optional Optional
Safety/Security
Lexus voice-activated HDD Navigation System [2]
with Bluetooth® technology [3] Optional Standard
One-touch, open/close trunk Optional Standard
Does the above help? I suppose you are looking for something more specific that that given by Lexus on their web site as "Specifications".
What I am looking for is the official numbers for the following: HP, T, Accel., MPG.
I guess I will have to hold my horses until maybe NYIAS.
Goodnight Everybody.
0-60 - mid 5's
mpg - mid 20's
That's in the press release. Don't remember if they noted Torque.
Make the ipod easy to integrate with the audio with info available on the NAV screen or on the gauges like MB does.
DrFill
Regarding the LS460L, many of the reviews, including this one, indicate a plural description of the rear reclining seat(s) with foot rest(s) . . . but, somehow I was under the impression that Lexus made the decision that only the rear passenger on the right side can have that foot rest feature.
Since it does initially seem more logical that the feature would be on both sides, I would guess that most reviewers just make that assumption.
So . . . which is it definatively? Are the reviewers correct that the foot rest is on both sides? . . . or did Lexus actually limit the rear foot rest to only the right side? . . . And if so, what's the deeper thinking here?
My only guess is that if the key was off and two foot rests were left in the up position, that the rear access would then be blocked, so, therefore they decided to force the access to the left side. But, it makes sense that the foot rest should automatically lower as the passenger left the vehicle, anyway, to prevent it from being left in the up position. But, perhaps the foot rest in the up position doesn't block the access anyway, and it's position is not relevant to the limitation of only one foot rest . . . IF there is only one. ?????????
:confuse:
TagMan
garyh1 - That's pretty good reasoning. So . . . we can now add another theory to the mix. :confuse:
TagMan
Do we need auto park, laser cruise control, 4 zone AC, foot rest for the back seat, night vision, etc? At first, it seems like we do not need them but perhaps after having them we cannot imagine a car without them. Remember power locks, power windows, Power seats, auto transmit ions, auto lights, rain sensing wipers, auto folding mirrors, smart keys, voice activated NAVIs, back up cameras, air conditioned seats, etc. When you are used to these goodies, try driving a car that does not have them! Oh, I need keys in my hands to get in, turn on the lights, turn on the wipers, remember where I am supposed to go, etc. You get the message. But you say that all that stuff is for old men, we need a mean driving machine for those of us who love to drive. I enjoy driving but is more like a chore than recreation. Am I the only one out there with this attitude? I want a nice, comfortable, safe luxurious car that makes my life easier.
A lot of wealthy people may not want to park their car, or worry about adjusting the climate, etc.
These are cars with features many are buying, or told Lexus they would buy, so they are produced.
No one NEEDS an LS. It's supposed to be a car you WANT.
DrFill