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You make the hybrid GS sound like a limited edition Ferarri.
The reality is that the low volume sales of a hybrid GS has more in common with the low volume sales of a Honda Insight. Both cars are produced in low volumes not because of prestige but because of limited demand.
And supposedly the user customizability of options on the Mercedes is what adds cost. Overall, the packaging does cost extra money on an individual basis, but supposedly it is less expensive overall for the cost of manufacturing the car. Packaging may mean lower prices overall.
And as for the GS450h, there is more exclusivity to it than the Honda Insight, by far. For instance, the Neiman Marcus versions of the GS 450h which sold out in a matter of hours upon release, similar to the Saks Fifth Avenue versions of the new S-class. The added expense of the GS 450h, a hefty premium indeed, plus its packaging of many features optional on other GS vehicles, makes it a niche vehicle.
I'm somewhat surprised by their forecast for 30% LS 460 L sales, I think in the US it'd be much higher, but perhaps the price figures into that equation.
Agreed, I think a majority of 7 sales in the US are LWB.
The Honda Insight is called a "hybrid" but it is not a true hybrid ("true" as defined by the UN; the Toyota /Lexus hybrids are the only ones with power by either engine or electric motor or by both ) and the Honda Insight is certainly not a performance hybrid. You could compare the Honda Insight to the Toyota Prius (a true hybrid but not a performance hybrid) Priuses generally have an 8 day average dealer supply the lowest of all mass produced cars and demand is high.The demand for Honda Insights is small because it's an inferior car and its supply matches the low demand. Demand for the GS hybrid is unknown; we just know it is in short supply.
Well, the LS460L gets more of the "goodies", so it would seem that it should sell more than 30%.
Unless . . . the REAL majority of Lexus LS buyers are less interested in the higher level of luxury, and are instead truly more value conscious than many of us would like to acknowledge.
I would find it interesting if the majority of BMW 7 buyers go for the long wheelbase, the Mercedes S-Class is long wheelbase by default, but the majority of Lexus LS460 buyers conversely don't step to the plate but instead opt for the cheapest way to get the car.
TagMan
It's possible that the 460 L forecast is small because they aren't certain how many buyers will opt for the larger version. It's an open question what the market composition of the New LS will be--but I think Lexus is aiming to catch more of the upscale, affluent buyer, while keeping a large portion of its value, efficiency-conscious base.
I myself went from a long-wheelbase S-class to the LS 430, and although I wished I still had the oodles of rear seat room, I didn't miss it that much. But if there had been an LWB model of the LS, I might have gone for it, depending on how easy to park that vehicle was. My old S-class was really difficult to park here in SoCal, always searching for a large enough spot! But then again, that lovely car did not have Park Assist or cameras, etc.
This is the kind of erroenous information and mindset that we have debated in the past. I posted the demographics for LS owners in a post on this forum. The average age is 62, and the income is $200K+, ~60% are male. Are these not very comparable with those for the S- and 7-series owners ? Lexus may have "value", but I suggest that MB is overpriced for what it delivers, besides the fact that they are produced in high cost while Lexus is produced cheaper and hence is priced cheaper. Buyers at this age and income level are not stupid, hence the popularity of LS which made it the #1 luxury sedan in the US for 5 years running (except 2006). Len (ljflx) has posted repeatedly in the past that the lease prices between a $73K S430 v a $65K LS430 was barely different, while MB finance eats up the residuals.
For those looking for luxury, refinement, first-class customer treatment, at an affordable price, Lexus is their choice. For those who desire a badge, and the look of affluence, MB fits the bill. Higher priced S-class does not suggest it is better than a lower priced LS, its just a matter of choice by the buyer.
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235615
Or at least it looks like a 600hL, judging by those LED triple headlights. But no badging and no hybrid indicators.
I want to drive that vehicle! But I imagine it will be invitation or appointment-only. I wonder how many each dealership will get. And going by Lexus' 'all Lexus customers deserve the best' philosophy, I suppose an IS owner will wait in the same line as a 600hL customer? Or perhaps it will be like my accountant friend, who is an LS 430 owner and never has to drive to the dealership for service--they always pick her car up for her.
Who said anything about demographics or affordability? And certainly no need to get insulting. Yikes!
I was referring to the possibility of LS buyers (which you indicate to be as qualified as buyers of the other marques) making a distinctly different kind of decision as to the long wheelbase and/or option levels and the resulting price tier from that choice.
I don't know why you interpreted that in a defensive manner. Sorry if you thought I was attacking Lexus buyers. I certainly was not, and I am still very interested to know if Lexus LS460/LS460L buyers will make a different evaluation and choice regarding the added wheelbase/luxury items as compared to the buyers of the other luxury marques.
Hope that clarifies that for you.
TagMan
I am already on record as early as April 14th in the HELM forum as predicting the LS600hL price to be $91,350. Certainly it could be higher and would still sell out, IMO.
I think if the car is less than $90K it would be a freaking steal.
The LS600hL is not to be confused with the LS460 or LS460L.
It is an entirely different animal, worthy of worldwide respect and recognition. It will be an ultimate HELM and a very exclusive vehicle.
TagMan
Can anyone tell by the front brakes? Also, those are the same wheels that have been on shots of the 600hl.
The LS460/L will be priced in the mid-60 to mid-80K range. These are already over 30% hike in the price of the base 460 vs the preceeding 430 base. I am assuming that you get a lot of features standard to justify that amount of hike. BTAIM, the 600hL is the car that should lift the 460 series to a new level. I hope that car is produced in very short supply to retain an exclusivity to it. That's something Lexus needs to do, and to resist the urge to meet the higher demand that car will attract.
IMO, the 460 shouldn't need to rely on the 600 to be elevated. I expect it to be judged for what it is and isn't. The 460 and 600 are going to be very different animals.
But I do recognize that the highest flagships in a marque tend to trickle down some of their attention and reputation to the rest of the line. Heck, it is in many cases the very reason for a top end vehicle in the line-up. To say "look what we can do".
Anyway, I agree that Lexus should keep the "exclusivity" of this vehicle and try not lose it.
TagMan
My intention was to point out the similarity between niche cars .
If you understood my post as saying that a hybrid GS and Insight are the same type of cars then I do apologize for my miscommunication.
And yes despite its low volume sales the hybrid GS is a very novel and unique luxury car.
I feel that it is indeed legitimate, as TagMan has suggested, for Lexus to keep the numbers of Lexus hybrids low--so as to increase the exclusivity. Additionally, another factor may be of consideration--the high cost of construction; according to some sources each hybrid sold is still loss-making. Perhaps the Lexus hybrids are not, but the technological sophistication and engineering resources required to build each hybrid vehicle surely are greater than their conventional counterparts.
Correct. The Insight vehicle is cancelled. Interestingly, however, Insight sales (while pitifully low) have nearly doubled recently. The car will be replaced in two years with a more versatile and more advanced hybrid compact.
To add perspective, Civic hybrid sales are considerably higher, but Prius sales have actually decreased, and the new Camry hybrid sales are brisk. Lexus RX hybrid sales have tanked WAY off, while Highlander hybrid sales are flat.
Still . . . the LS600hL will sell out and be a smashing success, IMO. (but not forever, as surprises are in the wind from the competition).
TagMan
TagMan
Also, it costs a helluva lot more to manufacture hybrids, so until the profit margins can equal or better approach those of cars with lone internal combustion engines Toyota would be stupid to go all out right now with hybrid production. All of this has absolutely nothing to do with exclusivity. If anything, Toyota/Lexus is exclusive as a company in its position on the hybrid leading edge, but this is very different from the cars themselves being exclusive because the goal is to price them reasonably and for the company to profit by way of volume sales.
As I alluded to previously, I think the early 600hL adopters are going to be delighted with the price, even if they will be hard to acquire at first. I expect the same price parallel and impact as all of the hybrids that preceded it. The only difference is that this is the LS level. This does not change the hybrid mission, it merely emphasizes it and makes it all the more real.
What Lexus has been so far (to now), is different from what Lexus looks forward to being (now to future). How do you raise the profile of your badge ? You need some halo cars, you need some exclusive product that people aspire to acquiring but which are limited. Toyota had the Century in Japan - a very limited production, exclusive and halo car, right up to today. And this car is the most exclusive Toyota sedan today.
So Lexus' plans would include a way to enhance its image, and enhancing image is not mass-producing a high-end, ultra modern, high cost sedan such as the 600h.
BTW, let us distinguish a mass-produced, econobox Prius from a GS-h or LS-h. These couldn't be any different in philosophy. The hybrid mission differs between a Toy or a Lex. The Lexus HSD products will encompass "performance" as the key hybrid driver, whereas Toyota-h cars emphasize MPG.
The hybrid version will be exclusive. For starters, Lexus aims this car at the S600, A8 W12, 760iL, or even higher. And at this rarefied field, sales are miniscule not large. So, in terms of sales, YES, it will be "exclusive".
It's my understanding that Lexus has indeed annouced it ahead of the upcoming Paris Auto Show.
See if this link also confirms it.
link title
TagMan
So, you suspect that the headline "official Lexus LS600h horsepower and fuel economy revealed" is not
quite so "official" afterall?
Gosh . . . and to think I was excited that I might have found incredibly relevant info, and of course, my immediate reaction was to share it with all of you. I guess we'll have to wait and see if it is accurate or not.
That headline, then, is terribly misleading, if it turns out to not be true.
TagMan
This info and link had already been provided in this forum 4 days ago
oac, "2007 Lexus LS" #2505, 27 Aug 2006 10:15 pm
TagMan
Or is it? It could be seen as exclusive, and perhaps to amplify that, Lexus has given the LS 460L many more standard luxury features, etc. The image of the vehicle may be affected.
The thing is, the sales forecast recently leaked at Autospies did not include Hybrids, IIRC. So it's an open question of how many sales this "ultimate Lexus" is forecast to do.
Throw in the rumored "L650h" and there's another puzzle for the future direction of the Lexus brand. It remains to be seen how far upmarket Lexus wants to go with the LS series.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
However if you define 'exclusive' as 'mark of a select few,' 'obtainable by only highly successful people' etc., then the LS falls into that category. I subscribe to both interpretations.
Some of us here, myself included, also see the LS 600hL as being marketed under the ('rare and hard to obtain') 'exclusive' category. Limited production, high value, long waiting list, lucky if you can get one at a price you like. When you see one, it's a special event--a rare one indeed. But possibly not individually numbered. Perhaps a LS 460L Black Diamond edition or something will have that.
I think we are already seeing that Lexus is willing to go upmarket.
Heck, what actually remains to be seen is just how far the American public will go at plunking down the green for these upmarket Lexus models.
That's the real question that will ultimately get answered.
TagMan
Just curious, based on your previous post about looking for luxury and gadgets, but didn't mention performance. I wasn't sure if you intentionally left out performance-oriented (suspension/engine) upgrades or just didn't mention it.
That's the real question that will ultimately get answered.
Well said. I wonder if the new LS might, over its model cycle, see fluctuations in pricing that we haven't seen with previous LS models (IIRC, the previous LS was around $56,000 MSRP base, and stayed that way largely 2000-2006 with modest increases every year or so).
I read that the first LS started at rock-bottom $35,000 in 1989, but within five years was pushing $50,000 (Japanese yen valuation had something to do with that as well).
Perhaps the LS 460 might come in 'attractively low' or some other surprising number, and change within a year or two? Or perhaps they would prefer to have a stable pricing structure from the outset, and let sales fall where they may. I wonder how keen Lexus is on retaining the #1 spot in the flagship luxury market.
And all this talk of a $100,000 Lexus hybrid, tempered by lots of expert and owner opinions that it will be around the $90,000 mark...
I think that there are indications that the hybrid will be priced between $80-90,000, and there is speculation that Lexus will come out with a higher model, how high is not known, that will cost upwards of $100,000. The feeling is that the LS600hl is not the flagship Lexus. Whether the higher model will carry over the LS name remains to be seen.
The 600hL should easily reach the mid-$90K in price. This car will be a $10-$15K premium on a base LS460L, or a $10K premium on a fully-loaded LS460L (adding a higher V8, AWD, HSD, 60+HP more, LED beams, etc). With Lexus already saying the L version will begin at $70K and up, you can expect the 600hL to be at $85K and up, IMO.
The LF-A (Lexus GT500) is scheduled for MY2009 (Sept '08 release) and should top $100K list price. The super sedan is still quite much a secret. I will doubt that it will carry the LS name. It may be the Maybach, Arnage, fghter to put Lexus in the same stratosphere as these marques...