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Comments
and accuracy of language is all-important.
My thinking is that there will indeed be an overlap with pricing between the fully loaded LS460L and the standard version LS600HL. I bet prices range between about 87K (standard version) and 100K+ for the ultimate (or is it "penultimate" ;-)) version. I imagine the standard LS600HL will have the majority of the options on the LS460L.
Lexus evidently wants the high-rollers to pay up some big bucks for that configuration...namely those folks who shell out $5,000+ for First Class airline seats, or even more for private jet expenses, etc. Indeed those who could care less about losing the 5-seat capacity for a 4-seat sybarite's haven.
IMO, the 5-seat LS 460 L is very nice indeed, and more versatile. I only wish Lexus had done as in the Japan and Europe markets, and offered the RSES as a standalone option. Hopefully the coolbox, basic recline seats are still available--just like the Ultra Luxury version on the LS 430. It would be good to have the LS back seat area continue to have these features in some degree of abundance.
ikey78 - are we sure that is MSRP or is it a JM asking price? In 2001 some LS430 ultras went $5-10K over sticker at the beginning.
See if I miss anything here but the options on the 600HL are:
A. 4 seat pckge
B. dynamicr radar cruise (amazing that it's not std)
C. Lexus Link (I thought it died)
D. Rear climate seats
E. Pre-collision
F. 4 zone climate control
We already know the 4 seat package is $10K. I'd say that PCS is at least $5K and everything else is $5K for a grand optioning total of $20K excluding anything special like wheels from the dealer. So pick your starting point. Are we $10K,$15K or $20K over the LS460L starting point. Whatever we settle on I'd say 15K of the options are then tied up in the 4 seat package (which most of us won't want) and in the PCS. Lexus Link, Dynamic radar cruise and rear climate seats will likely be standardized options built into every 600HL that ships here. I'd say the 4 seat option is special order and I don't know where they go with PCS.
What do you guys think?
I just don't think the hybrid is a long term strategy. I think it's a stop-gap to make us feel better about ourselves. The one plus from my vantage point is the power output is outstanding, but given the other drawbacks, I'd rather have a V-12.
So let's extrapolate to the 600hL which will have all of the 460L features, plus ML, LED hi/low beams, 19" wheels, Park assist, smart key, AWD, bigger 5.0L motor, batteries, higher output (444hp), E-CVT, and adaptive variable air suspension, all standard... I'd say these should add $15-20K premium to "base" 460L.
Hence, my guestimate for the 600hL is $90K start to $105K loaded with the 4-seat Executive package.
Here is the caveat: If Lexus wants this car to be truly exclusive low production model, then they could start it at $100K with everything except the 4-seat package, which if included would push its price to the NYT speculated $120K point. Its still a bargain compared to its true peer - the Maybach 57/62 which will run you north of $200K++.
BTW crude oil is now in the $57.70 range and I'm paying $2.19 - $2.24 for 89 octane and $2.29 - $2.35 for 93.
"Here is the caveat: If Lexus wants this car to be truly exclusive low production model, then they could start it at $100K with everything except the 4-seat package, which if included would push its price to the NYT speculated $120K point. Its still a bargain compared to its true peer - the Maybach 57/62 which will run you north of $200K++."
That's why the issue of a car above this in 2009 plays into this cars pricing strategy. That car is probably a foot longer and - well let's just say super luxurious (I learned my wording lesson yesterday) and 500+ horses.
The SWB I am looking at will sticker at $71K, which is 5K over my target, but still do-able...
OPEC cut production by 1m bpd today, so we should expect a slight uptick soon... And who knows what geo-political event lies ahead with Iran, which should push the price of oil to the $100 mark pretty quick... Here in my neck of the woods, 89 Octane is $2.35 and 91 is $2.59 / gallon.
ooppss.. I forgot about the higher version above the LS series (rumored L650, with a V10 or V12 motor)). That's the super exclusive model, which should be competing at the S600-S65 price.
I have to disagree.... In fact I see oil going HIGHER in the future not lower. Demand from China and India will increase, supply will decrease, and add in geopolitical events in Russia and the Middle East (lots bubbling underneath in these countries) which would exacerbate oil price to the higher range. I'd say we should enjoy the days of sub-$3 /gallon gasoline for now. Its gonna get worse.
I'll e-mail you on some of this stuff privately, look out for it soon...
I know it's impossible to keep track of all the posts, so I'll just throw a reminder at you. You can verify that I posted on the HELM forum, as far back as April 14th, that the MSRP for the LS600hL will be $91,350.
I've never adjusted my prediction at any time, and I still stand by it.
God only knows how far off I'll be, but my prediction was made well before ANY new LS pricing was announced whatsoever.
To be honest, it was a gut call, based upon what I knew of the vehicle, it's specifications, and my perception of Lexus marketing.
And, I'm having an extra dose of fun waiting to see how close I come.
BTW, I agree with you on the oil scenario. It will get worse over time. This easing of prices was only natural. Oil prices are kind of like using a yo-yo while walking up a mountain . . . ups and downs while the overall trend goes higher.
TagMan
I agree Dynamic Radar should be standard, but we are seeing the LS 460 'bargain' base models be somewhat decontented (some even with no NAVI screen). It seems that the 2007 LS has a very large range of options and features, from basic to maxed out, fully loaded.
As for the hybrid, I think it's pretty clear that the only hybrids that will actually save you money are the Prius and its competitors, which according to Consumer Reports will give you a few hundred dollars of savings after 5 years or so. The LS 600h L is about more power, lower emissions, and better but not superlative fuel economy. We'll have to wait and see about the trunk space--recently Lexus has not been shy about restricting it, and with the new LS, the different A/C filter options already intrude on trunk space.
Lastly, I hope the L600 or L650 is targeted at Rolls/Bentley/Maybach, and maybe with super S600 pricing. But I believe the LS 600h L is the rightful vehicle to target the S600, content wise.
I don't know why you and some others are so concerned about the cost of a replacement battery. Give me a break. It will last for at least 10 years and maybe "forever". The original Prius battery is still doing great with as much as 200,000 miles of driving in some cases. This is a new generation battery that will be vastly improved over that of the original Prius. How many folks keep their cars for more than ten years these days?
I'm not very familiar with supercar pricing/features, but I wonder how the valuation of the car itself vs. the interior accoutrements would compare between the LS 600h L and GT 500? With the LS 600h L vs. L650 the comparison seems more clear...the L650 will offer more of what the LS has, plus extra stuff--and probably in a more exclusive, indivdualized format that is more chauffeur-oriented and less flexible than the LS...
But the LS 600h L vs. GT 500...?
I'm very excited because I’ve been in love with the LS 600 and the 600L since I first viewed pictures of them on the Internet last January at the New York auto show. Surely the salesmen have the official prices by now. I sure hope so. I'll let you know if the prices are announced.
Does anyone know if the Nav in the new LS460 will permit on-the-fly route changes and input, as in the Acura RL ? Or are we still saddled with the lawyerly-based Nav with "I Agree", and grayed out features while the car is in motion...
Furthermore, with the XM NavTraffic, the LS 460 will be one of the first cars, if not the first, to offer dynamic rerouting (change your route on-the-fly due to traffic conditions). I'm pretty sure that option will be available while in motion.
If I'm dealing with the LS600HL I'd pass on the PCS, 4 seat package and the 4 zone climate control.
If my price estimates are right I should be around $81K for the LS460L and low 90's for the HL. Given AWD, added power and the added features/luxury of the HL it's the way I'd go without much thought. But I'm still concerned on price of the LS600HL.
LS460L
AS Air Suspension
LL Luxury pkg. with Semi-Aniline leather
MH Mark Levinson with HDD
MZ Lexus Link
PA Intuitive park assist
PI Advanced Parking Guidance system
Trunk mat, Wheel locks...
Approx $81420
Subtract PI & MZ, and you can get this car at $77K. Now add Touring Package or just plain jane air suspension, and you are at $81K.. which kinda fits perfectly your estimate above.
For me, its pretty simple:
LS460 SWB
CP = Comfort Package
NV = Nav w/Bluetooth/backup Camera
PP = Auto Power Door Close & Auto Power Trunk
PA = Parking Assist
Z1 = Preferred Accessory Package
MSRP = $67,242
Looks like a good deal, except I'd take out PP and PA, and add in the 19-speaker ML (that's a "must-have"), and it'd still net out at under $70K. Anything over that may just push me into the LWB "base" + ML for like $74K. I gotta decide how elastic my price point will be....($68K SWB or $74K LWB) And if the Touring Pkg will make it into the mid-year refresh next year, that will greatly impact my choice and price elasticity
:shades:
Doc, Steve - you guys happy??
If by "sporty", you mean you sit low in the bathtub and the cowl is high in front of you, I won't like this car. Is that what you're saying?
LS460 SWB
CP = Comfort Package
NL = Nav w/Bluetooth/backup Camera
PA = Parking Assist
Z1 = Preferred Accessory Package
MSRP = $69,377
I'm in Texas
Thanks.
Doc, Steve - you guys happy??
In a word, yeah.
Granted, I didn't expect loaded cars to be $90k+, I was thinking low-mid $80's.
Does anyone think The Lexus LS can't support these prices?
Demand will not be a problem.
And the brand image of the LS, and Lexus, will definitely improve noticably.
That's all I really wanted.
DrFill
So, Doc . . . exactly what is it that you think has been so noticeably wrong with the brand image of the LS and Lexus?
TagMan
From what I know - $100K+ up to $150K is a non-issue. In the US Lexus is aiming for the top and intends to be there before too much longer. That's why you have a $125K-150K sports car coming and a $150K V12 or V10 hybrid right behind that. Their market research supports it but they also have no intention of abandoning the customer base that got them here. It was at least 3-4 years ago that I said some real big things were due with the world wide intro. Now we are starting to see them. One other thing I was told is the GS is next for a big breakout change - 2-3 years from now.
Colors
They had several cars: Sliver on black, grey on grey, grey on black, black on beige. One grey car was SWB. The black interior was the most luxurious. One of the reasons I like it is because of the grey color of the switches which kind of stand out in light colored interiors. The wood for the black interior is also richer in color. Grey was the best exterior color and looked blue under the showroom lights.
Exterior Design
Front profile is the weakness of the car. It is just not aggressive enough but it is clean. The 600 lights would definitely help. Side profile was nice. I liked the LWB over the SWB but both are nice unlike the 750i which looks out of proportion. Rear end is the best shot. You are going to enjoy sitting behind this car in traffic. The chrome stands out on the darker colors and just adds a touch of luxury. The colors and fit and finish are first class. The doors close with a nice thump. The standard 18” tires and wheels look ok with no noticeable gap between the tire and the fender. Two cars had 20” after market wheels. I did not like the design of the either style but the size looked nice. I would hesitate to put 20s because of the penalty on the ride. I may change my mind after I drive one.
Interior
On second inspection, visibility and GS “bathtub” feel are not an issue. But I still say it has a sporty feel. The gear shifter is in a prefect place unlike the A8 which is definitely out of reach. I thought Audi makes the best interiors! With this interior no other car comes close. It is as close as you can get to a Bentley at these price levels. The leather is so soft- ten times softer than the LS430. The instrument panel lights were not on but all the other switches are backlit with light blue which looks really nice. The front seats seemed to be head and shoulders above the LS430 but that is not saying much because the LS430 seats were the worst in the industry. I reserve my judjment after a long test drive. The back seat is where you want to be. They are so comfy and so roomy in the LWB. The SWB rear leg room is definitely adequate when the back seat is reclined and pushed forward all the way but the front seat is not all the way back. If front is all the way back, then it gets tight. The power rear seats make the 4-seater option obsolete. Weak point of the interior is where the center council sides continue forward under the instrument panel on the driver and passenger sides. I think the design could have been finished off much better. It is kind of hard to explain and is best to check for yourself. This is another reason I like the black interior because it hides this design.
Trunk Space
A little tight with rear AC but even without rear AC it looks smaller then the LS430. With rear AC is almost rectangular but the something is sticking out from the back of the seats. Overall the trunk design is poor. The Europeans have always had much cleaner and more usable shape trunks.
Features
Coolest feature is the electronic hand brake. If you put it in auto, you do not have to engage when parked and disengage when starting to drive. Furthermore, if you stop at a traffic light you push the button on the left side of the steering wheel and you can lift your foot off the brake pedal. When the light turns green, you simply push the gas pedal and go.
Prices
Fully loaded: LWB $86,000 and SWB $73,000. The only options not included in these cars were the pre-collision that has a camera on the steering wheel and the back pre collision. On the LWB the 4-seat package is not included.
I hope you find this information useful. This is very elegant luxury car. It has gotten a little pricy for me because I like them fully loaded. I am looking forward to my test drive. If the body lean is reduced substantially, it is more likely that I will buy one next spring.
To be perceived as a butler, or some derivative stepchild that cannot compare with the vaunted S500 in image, or dynamics, is not what Lexus wants for the LS.
It's the same as comparing an Acura RL to a Lexus LS. Although the LS is certainly much closer to the S-Class, there was/is a gap in their perceived value/appeal.
This should be erased as soon as possible, and the new car will accomplish that. Apparently, Lexus sees what I see, and will make quite a frontal assault on the S-class, in particular, and the HELM class in general.
Lexus is nobody's stepchild. :mad:
Len
I can't assess Lexus move uptown beyond the LS. The LS is their most valuable commodity, and it is being treated accordingly.
I'd have to assume that if they can build something better than an LS, it would be quite an automobile.
Personally, I'd fix the GS, which should have been fixed THIS generation, and get a stick into the IS350. And redo the SC and make it more spirited in it comportment. Make it something people would want to drive.
Then build me a better Ferrari F430. If you have time.
DrFill
I hope you can still use the nav while in motion in the 460 by using the secret override technique available on the 430.
You'd think that if the car senses a person in the passenger seat, it would allow for nav input while driving. Oh well!
I don't think the LS430 was a very good design, being bloated and far less elegant than the 2000 LS it replaced, plus the seats have been universally panned. And the beltline was too low, attracting more attention to the bulbous greenhouse.
But it did run a good test on interest in the Ultra Lux Pkg. and Performance Pkg. Apparently Lexus will make these options more substantial and available in the 460.
I agree that the front end is more clean than good-looking. Nothing really wrong with it, but the more aggressive S-Class is better up front.
But unlike the S-Class, the car gets better the more you look at it, especially front to rear.
The rear of the S is a total mess.
I guess saying the LS has "Buns of Steel" might be inappropriate......
Let's just say the S isn't ready for a thong in the near future.
DrFill