Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans
I currently drive a 2003.5 Infiniti G35 6MT sedan that I love. Since I am in the snowbelt, I have a winter tire/wheel package for December to March. This package works really well. However, I keep wondering whether I should go for an AWD sedan the next time around. [BTW, My wife drives a 2002 Subaru Outback wagon and we have owned three other Subarus in the past.]
I was looking at the 2005 Audi A4 Quattro and the 2005 Subaru GT Limited. I have driven the GT and the 2004 A4 Quattro (V6). I enjoyed the GT and could live with that even though it lacks a few amenities I got used to. The A4 was tamer by comparison (which was not a fatal flaw) but was a little too small in the rear passenger area. I am not 100% sure but I thought the 2005 Audi A4 was a little bigger in this regard. So, it may be in the running. In addition, at a slightly higher price point, there are the BMW 330xi and the Volvo S60R sedans.
I would appreciate your views on the merits of the four vehicles I mentioned. Also, would you please indicate if leasing or purchasing may be the wiser choice for the sedan you suggest. Thanks!:)
Raj
I was looking at the 2005 Audi A4 Quattro and the 2005 Subaru GT Limited. I have driven the GT and the 2004 A4 Quattro (V6). I enjoyed the GT and could live with that even though it lacks a few amenities I got used to. The A4 was tamer by comparison (which was not a fatal flaw) but was a little too small in the rear passenger area. I am not 100% sure but I thought the 2005 Audi A4 was a little bigger in this regard. So, it may be in the running. In addition, at a slightly higher price point, there are the BMW 330xi and the Volvo S60R sedans.
I would appreciate your views on the merits of the four vehicles I mentioned. Also, would you please indicate if leasing or purchasing may be the wiser choice for the sedan you suggest. Thanks!:)
Raj
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My mom has a '01 AWD Outback and I've driven it many of time and it drives nice. Once to test it in the snow I slammed on the brakes and it didn't stop nearly as fast of my Quattro. The Quattro takes over with the brakes and the slip differental (ESC). I would put up a link but your not allowed here.
-Nate
I have always admired Audis for their level of fit and finish and, genrally, for their looks. I also don't deny that its AWD system has been around a long time and has proven itself. My problem is that the resale value of Audis is abysmal, making them unsuitable for leasing. At the same time, the reliability of Audis is also very much in question, making an outright purchase not a bright idea!
I am certainly not trying to bash Audis, I genuinely wish it made sense to go with the Audi. [I must admit that my brother owns a 2002 Audi S4 Avant and it has been trouble free so far.]
I am a big Audi fan as well as a Subie fan. I think someone has to clear up the 4wd history for me. Audi claims they introduced 4wd tech to cars in 1980 in the Quattro Coupe. Subaru says it introduced 4wd tech in the Subaru Leonne 4wd Station wagon in 1971. So who was first? I mean had Audi designed it and not released it on a car until 1980?
http://www.subdriven.com/news/publish/Features/article_237.shtml
http://www.audi.com/com/en/new_cars/driveline_suspension/quattro/- quattro_history/quattro_history.jsp
http://www.spdusa.com/wrx.htm
Consumer Reports recently put the Audi A4 on its list of most reliable cars, so their surveys apparently don't agree with this impression.
natethomas- perhaps your superior snow handling in the Subi was due to tires or your driving skill. I find our A4 (with Blizzaks) to be an incredible car driving and stopping in poor traction conditions; almost feels like dry pavement. The dual zone automatic temperature control and heated seats are also appreciated in bad weather. You are correct that the low clearance can be a hindrance in deep snow (then I take the SUV), and the Subi GT, I am sure, has more acceleration.
The Audi and Subaru are both good cars; just depends what features appeal to you most.
waygrabow: I get the Consumer Reports (along with Automobile and AutoWeek). The 2005 Buying Guide does give the A4 an average reliability rating (therby it is not precluded from being recommended). The Subaru Outback gets an above average rating on reliability. Generally AWD vehicles are higher-maintenance items, even Subaru, but the costs (including inconvenience) are significantly higher with the VW group!:)
Notwithstanding my rationale above, I would have leased an S4 last week if I could have done so. Unfortunately, I am 15-18 months away from a purchase. The dealership had two 2004 S4's (V8) with stick shifts. It had all of the do-dads I like (e.g., premium sound) and none I dislike (I don't care for navigation systems, for example). The MSRP was over 53k but was marked down to 44k! It was VERY attractive for a lease! Maintenance is free for 4 years, 50 k miles!
All this proves that when the product is great, the heart rules the head!:)
Later...
Subarus came earlier but they had traditional center locking differential-style 4WD, low range even. They jacked up the suspension and even added skid plates. The world's truly first sport utility wagon was the 1973 Subaru Leone 4WD.
Audi pioneered AWD (as opposed to 4WD), though, with a center differential that allowed full-time use of the system even on non-slippery surfaces.
The reality is that both have extensive AWD experience and offer some of the best systems in the world at any price.
Nav is rumored as an option for the GT this year, and I'd expect at least 3-4 additional features in the 2006 Subaru. But if you must have the goodies, Audi offers those for a bit more money. Only you can decide if they're worth it to you.
-juice
- Good to hear the Audi is making strides. The previous year's CR report on the A4 was below average reliability. Also, many of Audi's other cars are below average in reliability. I am hoping Audi is making strides in improving their whole line. Considering that I have seen a couple of new S4s (did not have a license plat yet) with rear break lights and other lights out (as well as exhaust tail pipes bouncing around). I am still curious about this.
You won't go wrong with either car.
Again, just my 2c!
But not the repair bills. :-)
-juice
As far as the new Subie's go, the new GT is very nice indeed and I bet that the '06 sees a jump in hp, which will put the squeeze (however slightly) on BMW & Audi.
My Audi has been excellent ('02 Avant) but I bet that, say, six or seven years down the road that Subie will be costing less to maintain.
By the way, I live in SE Michigan where we do get snow in the winter, but generally not the blowouts that you'd get out in the Great Plains states or the mountains, where AWD is much more of a real necessity. So far I'm doing fine with the RWD on the standard all-season tires. The DSC/DTC helps a lot in this regard, and if I start having any problems a set of full snow tires would probably take care of it.
-juice
Either way you decide to go, AWD is the greatest thing ever... especially with the massive quantities of wet snow I have to drive through in the mountains here outside Seattle.
A4 starts at just $26,520, but add Quattro and a few options and you're well into the $30s.
Watch the options sheet and I think you can get a pretty good value.
-juice
If this same car was purchased earlier in the model year, the MSRP would have been approaching 34k.
Current ride is an '01 A4 1.8T Quattro. I shopped the Legacy GT - thought it was a fine car, but couldn't get past the fuel economy.
-juice
I'm well aware of the difference in displacement, power, etc between the GT & the A4. Just explaining one of the factors that lead to my decision and the fact that the SE's represent a good value (My '05 and '01 purchase prices are within $500). I also own an '03 Baja and am aware of the performance of the N/A 2.5l engine, which is not enough for me personally. When I finally sat down and weighed all costs, along with the intangiables - the A4 was the answer for me (For the 3rd time '98/'01/'05).
Now if I was in a mode where I was purchasing simply based on performance/price ratio, I would likely purchase a GT.
nw2k5
You and a lot of folks think Subaru should have an engine inbetween the 165hp and 250hp choices available now.
That gap is huge!
-juice
But my feeling is that its more than a sheer numbers game, since the 1.8T has but 4HP more, but has a nice flat torque curve from around 1800RPM on up. While it's far from being the quickest around, it's fun to drive and has a sporty "feel" to it.
The Subaru base 2.5l reminds a bit of the old "Iron Duke" 2.5l I had in my Jeep Comanche pickup. The engine's personality is definately not what I would consider sporty.
nw2k5
I think either a bump in base HP to 175-180 or so, or at least a 210hp intermediate engine option (2.5T from the Forester XT and Baja), would be a good idea.
Problem is it might sacrifice sales of the more profitable GT.
Subaru hit a record for sales in 2004, Legacy in particular had a great year.
-juice
Audis are very nice inside, tho.
-juice
I'm taking delivery of A4 #3 today. I previously owned a '98 and an '01, both were 1.8T quattros with premium & sport packages. The roads in MI suck, so this one is without sport suspension. IMO the handling of the '05 w/o SS is pretty good compared to the '01 and earlier models w/o SS. Just need to do something about the wheel gap though.
As far as snow performance, I think whoever raised the issue of ground clearance has a very valid point. I felt the Subaru was better in the snow as I found out having to drive down the street in 6" of snow to help dad dig out the Audi. If memory serves, the Audi was lower with performance tires, which improved handling, but sacrificed bad weather performance.
IMHO, I do not think you can go wrong with either one and realize they are VERY different cars now. I feel that Subaru has improved considerbly and closed the gap with the new generation Legacy. If I had to do it tomorrow, I would take the '05 Legacy GT in a heartbeat and put the 5K-10K saved toward early retirement. Happy driving!
Those even have the clearance but I think they're just not willing to risk doing any damage when the weather is nasty.
-juice
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First thoughts - interior is clean, functional and pretty typical of mid-level Japanese cars. The interior in not on par with a G35/3 series/a4 by any stretch. It's very econobox cheap. Soft materials but the overall design makes blah seem edgy.
Seats were decent but the cheap leather wasn't warming me over. Steering wheel felt slim and plasticky. Not a very sturdy unit. Auto down on one window and no auto up at all? What the heck (sanitized per Pat's request), this is a 2005?! Shifter felt notchy without the engine running and just the clutch depressed.
Started the car - whoa the 2.5 is a rough running engine. Neat little swing of the needles when the engine comes to life. Ran through the gears again at a standstill, still vague, notchy, rubbery VW-like manual feel. Pulling out of the spot the steering felt dead. That's okay, it's just parking lot stuff.
hit the road and accelerate. nice. I had forgotten how wonderful it feels to have instant power (unlike the torque-less world of BMW's inline 6 engines). car pulls pretty strongly through the first few gears. also the bulky outside of the car doesn't appear that bad when moving. interior's feeling cramped though and egad do you sit up high in the car. I could use a lowering of a few inches.
First corner comes and the car leans. Salesguy says many mods available. Yeah it'd need some serious tuning on the suspension to make the car livable. Once we hit the freeway the car roughly roars up to 80. Only 5 gears? Darn, no wonder gas mileage is bad! It's turning high rpms and I'm only doing 90. engine's pretty noticable too but not in a purring sexy way like my ZHP. This is more nissan clatter - as if a rod or some part of the engine will explode through the hood at any moment.
Nice pick up though - again, the bad gearing means the car will sprint at highway speeds but it's at the sacrifice of mileage and the constant drone of a malfunctiong lawnmower sounding engine. Salesguy claims 3-4k in mods will get you over 300 whp. Intriguing...
Off the freeway and banking. Not exactly glued to the road. The typical intrusive, fun-numbing of Subaru's awful AWD system robs corners of their enchanting promise. Car stays planted but doesn't feel like it's being guided by invisible rails (ala bmw, miata, etc). Too much mechanical interference with cornering, imho.
On surface streets the engine's always on boil and little too unrefined for my tastes. The car wants to run hard but it's more of a nissan-like level of half-way threre luxury. This car isn't a near luxury competitor...too many cost cutting corners from the wind noise to the bad manual to the light doors.
Good size trunk. Back seat is not comfy - neither is the bimmer's though.
Overall a fairly fun car but more of a 22k car given the total lack of anything approaching luxury. honda's accord coupe v6 sports a better, more refined, eager engine, infinitely better tranny, and total luxury-like entombment. If not for the FWD, it'd be a lexus-like car. can't see spending 26-28k on this car. I'd always feel like I was driving something slapped together by boy racers who wanted to pretend they were going after the luxury class.
A 6 speed is rumored, basically SoA is training techs to service them, so it's almost certain for MY06.
Accord doesn't come in a sedan with that manual trans. And the sedan's suspension is softer than even the Subie you're complaining about.
The EJ25 engine is the same in the STi, same semi-closed deck block, forged pistons, different tuning. All the STi stuff bolts on.
-juice
I made it clear I was talking about the Accord Coupe. Just popped into my head as an example of a luxurious, quick, decent car in the low 20s.
Don't get me wrong great car, not AWD, but certainly tops the RSX or TSX (Acura's).
Hox
When i was shopping for a car in 03, I got offers of 22.5k on two of them from different dealers in san diego. when helping a friend look for a car in 04, we drove a 6 speed accord v6 coupe and also got an offer of 23.5k without haggling. just standing still. shrug, i take that to mean it's no big deal.
If there pricing were here, they couldn't keep them on the lots anywhere. They go for 25k plus at dealers if you find them.
honda dealers give their cars away and every honda I've looked at always is priced at or below invoice. usually below. could be the market you're in as san diego honda dealers will bend over backward to move product.
Actually, I probably would take the TSX over it. Prefer the 4 door to the ugly look of the two door coupe world. I know i'd take a tsx over a 325i.
Honda might be afraid that a 6 speed Accord sedan would cannibalize the TSX and maybe even TL.
-juice
The Audi had started "nickel and thousanding" us to death toward the end, transmission, turbo, timing belt tensioner, leaking gaskets, gas gauge malfunction etc..., needless to say, my wife gave the stepson the keys to go to McDConalds, well, the antilock was not working and the road was a bit slick from an early morning rain, (Audi wanted $1600 to fix the main brain of the car which was the problem with the antilock), the son was too busy looking inside his McDonald's bag, and what can I say, a telephone pole jumped out in front of him....(he says it was a squirrel that jumped out and he hit the pole to avoid it last minute, but we won't argue that point....just glad the Audi preformed as it did and gave its life up for his!!)
We would have considered another Audi, but we tend to keep our cars longer than the warranty period, and the Audi just doesn't have the reliability record for mileage milestones. I have noticed Subaru owners do not have as many critical complaints as Audi owners....maybe we will be driving that Legacy Ltd. soon....as for our 4.2, no problems yet, and we have a 100K powertrain warranty on that vehicle, and with 43K on the odometer, we may keep her for a bit longer.
-juice
Why? Because it has more horsepower? Pretty narrow defintion of performance if you ask me.
Johnny
I just got a A4 2.0 Quattro, 6 speed.
I've had a 1996 Outback H4 and a 2001 LL Bean H6. I put Bridgestone RE950s on the Bean and it changed personality from a dull car to one with some spirit - albeit losing some snow performance.
Before getting the A4 I was in the local Subie dealership and tested a 5 speed Legacy GT Ltd and the automatic version.
While I liked the Subie, was very familiar with them and could appreciate the distance they had come since 1996, the car is a half class below the new A4 by any measure other total HP and price.
Fully loaded I stickered at $36,700 and invoiced at $34,400. Comparably, but not quite ( x zenons, bose/sattelite, better, I think, materials, longer warranty and free maintenance, etc) equipped, the the subie is $7,000 less.
For a lot of people the tradeoffs and savings might make a difference - I wasn't sold.
Iam thinking of the Audi S4.
What do you think?
Krzys
Forget S4, how 'bout the RS4? RS6? S8? Phaeton W12?
More down to earth, JDM Legacy STi? MazdaSpeed 6? WRX STi? EVO IX?
-juice
Great vehicles all, but the thread title is "Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans," not "Best-Bang-for-the-Buck AWD Sports Sedans."
Bob