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Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans



  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They are the ultimate in terms of performance for the dollar. It's all about what you're measuring.

    Also, the STi and EVO are very extreme machines, in face I'd argue that they are more extreme, as in requiring more compromises from the driver, than even that Bentley.

  • beanboybeanboy Posts: 442
    I agree the G35 has a less refined interior compared to the LGT. Those silver cruise control buttons on the steering wheels looked and felt like they came off an 80s boom box!

    "Steering wheel felt slim and plasticky" Umm, gotta disagree with you there. Momo might not offer the best for their OEM lines, but certainly is right up there in feel and thickness versus the competition.

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I agree the G35 has a less refined interior compared to the LGT. Those silver cruise control buttons on the steering wheels looked and felt like they came off an 80s boom box!

    Was this an 05 or 04 model G35? 05's have a new interior. Nissan heard the complaints and addressed them. The G35 MT has real aluminum covering the center console, doors, etc. It's quite nice actually. Far more substantial than anything in the TL, TSX, 3, MB or GT.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I should check out the new interior. I'd heard they were upgrading the Z, but I didn't know they also did the G35.

    Acura uses real aluminum too, FWIW. Besides, the stuff dents easily, if you bump a briefcase up against it.

    This is a case where fake aluminum (pluminum?) is actually better.

  • beanboybeanboy Posts: 442
    05s weren't out while I was shopping.

  • samiam_68samiam_68 Posts: 775
    Did anyone check out the 2006 GS-300 AWD? 245hp, 21/27MPG, gorgeous in and out, Dolby surround with DVD audio and SAT radio. NAV. Memory everything. BOW friggin' WOW! I WANT ONE! I'm getting a second
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They look better now, also.

    Gen I was Guigiaro, but CALTY messed up Gen II and the proportions just didn't look right.

  • dashbbdashbb Posts: 119
    I currently drive an Audi A6 4.2 Quattro. Its hard to enjoy a FWD car once you've owned a true AWD system such as the Quattro. Other than Audi, Subaru and Lancer EVO, all other cars are either front-drive, rear assist or rear-drive, front-assist. (Please correct me if I'm mistaken).

    Subaru Legacy GT Wagon offers more cargo space, and although it has about 50hp less than Audi, it makes up for it in curb-weight.

    With the shotty reliability of Audi's & the high sticker price, Subaru Legacy GT becomes the obvious choice. The only thing you lose is the status that comes with the 4 circles! :-)

    What I did not like about the LGT compared to Audi:
    --Small rear seats & passenger volume.
    --Narrow wheels & tires. Audi has 255/40/17 size.
    --Inferior fit & finish quality, especially leather.
    --Slow Auto-Manual (Tiptronic) shifting in Subaru. The LGT reads a book before shifting.
    --No memory seats, navigation, quality sound system (such as Bose).
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 849
    that 1 Audi A6 4.2 buys almost 2 GTs.


    PS BMW, if I am not mistaken, has AWD that works all the time. New 5 series with AWD might be more to your liking.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    2006 should get a Nav option. Dealers have already seen the order codes.

    Audi, Subaru, EVO are indeed full-time.

    You can add BMW, Mercedes, and Infiniti, that I know of. All systems are full-time and send most of the power to the rear axle for kicks.

  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    I really have to disagree with you. We have a '98 A4 1.8t, with an '04 Lexus RX 330, '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet, and an '03 Honda Civic. All of those are pretty reliable cars, save the S4 which hasn't been proven yet (we just got it a week ago- fell in love when we got on the highway), so your A4 must be a lemon. I'm guessing it's the last year of the older model, with the clearer headlights and slightly more aggressive body kit and redesigned interior. That's weird- we've maybe had two problems, we bought our A4 used for the son, and have owned it for three years. The worst we've had is an oil leak, and the other slight things were dents from other people, or scratches on the 17" wheels that my son bought. Before the S4 came, I was driving the A4 because we had turned my leased A6 2.7t in a few weeks earlier. I was perfectly happy driving the A4, there was a bit of shake, but what do you expect in a seven year-old German car with a coffee can exhaust (also compliments of the son)? Exactly. It was exhilarating and low-pitched on the highway, and although puny compared to my S4, it could beat any 330 from a stoplight thanks to its almost 200 horsepower. I really think that the A4 you had was just a lemon, I mean, Audi is easily the top German carmaker in quality and reliability, only behind Lexus, Toyota, and Honda/Acura (tied), in that order. Audi is now in pole position. It won the Best German Luxury Automaker award this year, the A8L has won almost every award for best large luxury sedan in magazines, the S4 was on a ten-best list, the A6 is the best-selling car in Germany, and has just been voted the Best Car in the World, by journalists from all over the world, surpassing at least 100 other cars from Audi and other companies (BMW, Subaru, Infiniti, and Mercedes included), and beating the Volvo S40 and Porsche 911 in the top three. How can someone top that? Oh yeah, you can't...
    By the way, if I were you, I'd go out and test the new 4.2 A6, because we did after our '00 A6 2.7T. We thought the 3.2 wasn't ample enough, so looked at the S4 and A6 V8. The A6's luxury-heavy heritage is apparent here, but in performance, also, it really gives the BMW 545i and Mercedes-Benz E 500 4Matic a run for their money.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    The S4 is obviously the best- I mean, it literally has no competition. I mean, think of another V8 sports sedan in the $40K-50K range, with AWD, that is the S4's size! There's nothing! But, if you have the green, wait a little and see if you want to sprint for the RS4 before the waiting list exceeds the building capacity. But, the S4 delivers an incredible experience. We drove two sedans and one convertible, and got the convertible because I just wanted that open-air feeling. The S4 delivers a truly amazing ride, though. It sounds like one of the American muscle cars with that V8, without trying too hard like a Benz C 55 AMG. It sounds so creamy, I just wanted to rev it in the parking lot before I drove off, but I refrained from that temptation. It has more luxury, coolness, exclusivity, and understated style than any M3 you'd dust from a stoplight, all for at least $3K less. What do you say? Hint: S4.
  • las4las4 Posts: 1
    Having just sold my 2000 S4 and leased a new 2005 S4 Avant, I have to agree (maybe I'm a little prejudiced) that the S4 is one of the finest road cars I've ever driven. Now what to do to replace my wife's 330ci...I want the RS4 now!
  • mikenkmikenk Posts: 281
    Quote from ESF "I really think that the A4 you had was just a lemon, I mean, Audi is easily the top German carmaker in quality and reliability, only behind Lexus, Toyota, and Honda/Acura (tied), in that order."

    Yikes!! Where did that come from? Audi undoubtedly makes some nice cars - both to look at and drive, but long term reliability is not their strength - not even close to Toyota, Honda, Subaru, or even Ford for that matter. My data is from the latest issue of Consumer Reports, which as far as I know is the only statistically accurate source concerning long term reliability.
  • most of this thread talks about the A4, but only once(msg #62) has anyone even mentioned the S40. i recently drove both and opted for the S40. the audi seemed overpriced simply because it was an audi. it's true the S40's AWD is front biased, but that only saves kicks in when required and so fast that it is totally unnoticable. the S40 T5 is faster than the A4 1.8T and has higher safety standards. the dolby surround sound system kicks in the S40. to top all this off the volvo is thousands of $ less expensive. in my opinion the S40 looks better than the A4 as well. please admin add the S40 to the "What is this discussion about?" list of this thread. after all, it did recieve second place for World Car of the Year behind the A6 this year.....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Nice car, but is it ultimate in any way?

    Not really. We're not talking about the A4 1.8T, we're talking about the V8 S4 and even the RS4. Those are ultimate.

    S40 T5 is merely "great". ;)

  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    I might've overdid it a little... sorry. But, they are the most reliable German car company, and that's for sure. I also just remembered that Hyundai and Kia are better than the Germans. Whatever, because I really don't see any serious technical problems with Audi. I got my data from J.D.Power. Ford is worse than Audi in reliability in most places, and you may be thinking of durability, which is far better in America than any German carmaker. I don't disagree with you about the others, though. Probably the only Japanese car that's worse than Audi is Daihatsu!
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    No one mentions the S40 because they're not the A4's competition (Not quite as high class or as big), and this is an Audi forum, not Volvo. Their only similarities are all-wheel-drive, having four doors, an engine, and a trunk.
  • u must be smoking something....the S40 directly competes with the A4 and beats it in everything except rear seat leg room....
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 849
    Please tell me as I do not know.

  • i never said anything about the S4....
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    >>this is an Audi forum

    This is a not uncommon misperception.

    It's not an Audi forum, it's a discussion on the Sedans Comparisons board. It is linked to all the vehicles you see at the top of the page. So it shows up when you look for Volvos, also, as well as the rest.

  • It's not an Audi forum, it's a discussion on the Sedans Comparisons board. It is linked to all the vehicles you see at the top of the page.

    exactly...thank you...Audi is not the only company that makes AWD Sport Sedans....
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    I think the s40 competes well against the a4 1.8T/2.0T BUT this is an "ultimate" topic. When there's an s40R ( which ought to be 300hp/300lb-ft ) then there'll be interesting conversation.

  • i agree that the S40 is not "ultimate", however, it is just as good if not better then the A4 and the A4 has been mentioned countless times in this car that hasn't been mentioned at all however and most certainly is ultimate(if not the ultimate) is the illegal to drive in the US Nissan Skyline.....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Not really, I think most times the Audi mentioned was the S4 specifically, not the entire A4 lineup.

    The S4 and RS4 are ultimate.

  • Volvo S60R MT will out run the Audi S4 from 0-62 (or 0-60 mph) according to CAR magazine. Plus the Volvo can easily be upgraded to produce more power. It's 4C suspension is quite effective. Haldex supplies the AWD system to both Volvo and Audi.

    The R's interiors is more lively then Audi's S4.

    The S40 T5 is a competitor to the Audi A4 - no question. I have driven both and the T5 will spank the 4 cylinder Audi and stays GLUED to the road.

    If you are considering long term ownership I definitely would stick with Volvo. I've owned elderly Audis and Volvos. Audi has had lots of automatic tranmission problems and a poor history with electricals. Volvo's in general last longer and are cheaper to maintain. The older Volvo's electrics are robust and reliable so I expect the same with newer ones.
  • I may be wrong, but I think the S4 quattro AWD is a torsen system, not Haldex. The TT uses the Haldex setup.

    I currently own an Audi and my wife owns a Volvo. I can say that from our experience they are about equal in terms of reliability, neither being great.

    I have not seen the interior of the R, but I have a hard time believing that it is a better interior than the S4. If it is, I would love to see it.
  • rjorge3rjorge3 Posts: 144
    "I have not seen the interior of the R, but I have a hard time believing that it is a better interior than the S4. If it is, I would love to see it. "

    .........and to piggy back on the quote above from bellamusica, I know that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but the Audis interior ARE the benchmark of what a car interior should look like. At least almost 100% of car magazines ALWAYS praise the Audis for their outstanding finish in the inside.

    I own the 2005 A4 1.8 and I've sat on my co-worker 2004 S40,, and my friends, sorry (again beauty is in the eyes of the beholder)...but you can not even compare the display, finish touches, elegance (yet connected to the driver), plush yet sporty, feel of the bottoms and knobs, and lets not even talk about how gorgeous that interior looks at night.

    I might give the S40 the reliability contest (by a hair nonetheless), but never, never ever, will the S40 come close to our beloved interior.

    Just my 2cents :shades:
  • I might give the S40 the reliability contest (by a hair nonetheless), but never, never ever, will the S40 come close to our beloved interior.

    are you kidding me?....your friend must have the old body style S40....the new one was released halfway through the 2004 model year....there was a 2004 and a 2004.5....i've sat in both 2005 cars multiple times in the last 4 months and the S40's interior is WAY COOLER!!!......i's just sexy...i'm not saying the A4's interior isn't nice, because it is nice.....but(and it's a big but), it looks, well, like a nice version every other sedan on the road's interior...the only stand out thing in the A4's interior is the screen....but who needs navigation in america anyway?....and even if u did opt for navi, the S40's navi screen rises up out of the dash above the center console and air looks amazing if navi is your thing....

    bottom line: the A4's interior is nice, but ordinary....the S40's interior is trend's a work of art the link...
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    I'm smoking?!? That's like comparing a G35 to an A6 4.2- slightly lower-class, some bit smaller, and a lot less power. You can only compare an S40 T5 AWD to an A4 3.2 quattro, and the A4 obviously is a nicer car. It is faster, more luxurious, more established, and (in some opinions) better-looking. The S40 is nice looking, but is a bit bland. The A4 is not bland at all. Tell me a true fact- in what one thing, only one, does an S40 T5 beat an A4 3.2? (Besides price- the A4 is justifiably more expensive)
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    The S60R already competes with the S4- I'm telling you, the S60 is the A4/3-Series/C-Class class, not the S40. The S40 is a premium compact sedan. Very premium.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    The only thing that's out of the ordinary in the S40 is the centre console. It looks boring in the rest of the interior

    The NAV in the A4 flips backward at the push of a button, and there are two MP3 Stick slots, and one DVD Player. Anyway, I think you're exaggerating the S40 a little bit. The materials aren't as good as the Audi's, a "rise-up" navigation screen isn't that amazing (the one in the Infiniti is better), and the interiors, overall, on all Volvos, would never come close to an Audi. It's just, even if something in the Volvo looks better, it's not really better. The Audi has muhc more attention to detail, and its interior isn't comparable. Besides, this is the older model A4's interior, all they did was slightly freshen it. Wait until they redesign it- it will surpass the Volvo's by, mmmm, maybe 10x. I mean, look at all the other Volvos compared to other Audis. Volvo is not a trend-setting company, besides in safety features. Mercedes has more of those, anyway. Audi is the trend-setter in interiors, and after the new model comes out in 2008, the A4 will be too.
  • rjorge3rjorge3 Posts: 144
    My dear allwheeldrive, I hope that whatever you're smoking has only affected you in one side of the brain (apparently the one that see the Volvo with the nicer interior than the Audi, but I guess that you are indeed entitled to your opinion). I actually printed out your post and showed to four of my friends at the golf course today (just to get a kick out of you)....mind you that none of them directly drive either a Volvo or an Audi (the wife of one of them drive the ugly thing). My buddies drive a MB 55AMG, BMW 530 the second, Acura MDX the third a Nissan Maxima the fourth and of course ME an Audi A4. They are, however, just like me, car buff and we go together to Auto shows, and anything related to cars. Well, the owner of the MB 55AMG had the biggest laugh and told me......"just write the following..........the only thing that is uglier than a Volvo interior in its class is the interior of a Saab........and trust me, I know since my wife drive the damn thing because is supposed to be safe for the kids"
    Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, I just hope that you will never judge a beauty contest in your lifetime my friend, what a disaster that will be!!! :shades:
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    "The S60R already competes with the S4- I'm telling you, the S60 is the A4/3-Series/C-Class class, not the S40. The S40 is a premium compact sedan. Very premium."

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I was looking at this from the perspective of handling. I've had a chance to drive the s60t5AWD on a track back to back with the s40t5AWD and the s40 is much better handling--this was at the volvo weather driving event. However, i don't think the s40t5awd as good as even an a4 with sport package. I also think the audi interior is better than the s40 interior. The 60 interior is closer if not quite there.

    As for the "futuristic" s40 interior, ok there's the thin center panel but, eh, so what? The narrow row of buttons just wastes console space in my opinion. On the other hand, i find the s40 interior to be extraordinarily comfortable. I love the seats.
  • For what you will pay to get into an Audi A4 3.2 Quattro with decent options you probably can buy a Volvo S60R.

    I will have to admit the Audi A4/A6 interior may have better fit than the S40 or S60 R but I like the S60R interior more than either Audi's - Like i said it is more Lively. Have any of you looked at the interior choices (Inscription service I believe) Volvo is offering on the S60 models ?

    I owned an Older Audi 5000 - every power window failed (never had that problem all the older Volvos I owned), the automatic tranny failed (never had that problem with my older Volvos), Power sunroof failed (never had that problem with older Volvos) and Audi was still using DRUM brakes (Volvo stopped that in 1967 i believe).

    Overall Volvo builds a better quality car even if Audi's interiors feel better put together - who cares if the rest of the car is falling apart ? How many Audi owners proudly take their cares to 300,000 or 400,000 miles plus on original engines and automatic transmissions ?

    Don't forget how much VW is still in your A4 ...and I do realize Volvo is using the European Ford Focus platform (but not engines and transmissions) for the current S40. But that platform is garnered nothing but praise for its handling prowess in the automotive circles.

    I'd rather have money spent where it really counts (powerful engines, reliable transmissions) then to be able to brag that my interior is put together better than yours.
  • you guys are too much....the only thing i liked more about the audi's interior was the feel of the leather, and thats it.

    rjorge3, it's obvious i'm dealing with people that "know it all" because they read Car & Driver on the tiolet....then drive their $55,000+ cars that Consumer Reports told them was nice to the golf course and shoot 110+ and make themselves feel better by mocking an intenet posting(minus the pictures linked to, of course)....of course the owner of a 55AMG(more than twice the price of an S40) is gonna laugh at my post, especially since his wife drives an ugly as sin 2000-2002 S60....the reality of this all is, your buddies have never seen the interior of the 05 S40 and are equating it to the historical aesthetics of volvos of the past...which are, well, hiddious inside and out....however, a lot has changed in the last few years....

    esf is obviously the only person in this thread that has either a) clicked on the links i provided, or b) actually saw or sat in an 05 S40....he disagree's with me, and thats fine, but atleast he compared the two and gave reasons for his opinions and not..."i showed your post to my ignorant fat-cat golf buddies and they laughed..". rjorge3, i'm glad you and your friends get a kick out of ignorance....tell your buddies with the AMG and 530 i'll play 18 on a course they choose and spot them 5 strokes if they put their cars on the on the other hand can keep your tired A4... :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Audi a Haldex? A4s have a center Torsen diffy with traction control managing both axles.

    The Haldex in the Volvo is primarily FWD and then shifts power quickly, but the Audi is different in that both axles get power all of the time.

    The systems work very differently.

    I like the S40's interior design but the materials below waist level leave much to be desired. The Audi is the opposite, wonderful materials with a design that leaves you cold.

    This discussion almost deserves its own thread.

  • Excuse me Haldex is being used on TT at least. Regardless the performance numbers I have seen from the S60R are on par with Audi S4 but at a lower price point. Isn't this thread about ultimate AWD machines anyway ??? - so the Audi guys are standing up their hero on its "better interior".

    I think there is less than 10 lb torque difference between the R and the S4 and the Volvo hits it peak torque at lower RPM. Yes the S4 has signficantly more horsepower with it's V8 but don't forget the Volvo S60 R (turbo 5 cylinder) can be purchased and chipped/modded to reach the S4 horsepower and significantly exceed its torque ratings for less than it would cost to buy an S4.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 167,419
    Haldex on the TT and the new A3....

    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • rjorge3rjorge3 Posts: 144
    Allwheeldrive....just wanted to thank you for providing with new material when I meet my buddies this Thursday morning. See??? assumptions is the mother of all _ _ _ _ ups! (mess ups that is!)

    . And no, we did not make fun of you...we just got a kick out of your point of view. that's all. And yes we ALL sat in the interior of your beloved Volvo 2005 in the NYC auto show. And yes we all have seen (in person not in magazines), the interior of your beloved Volvo....and I am so sorry that this makes you angry, but still is not as beautiful as my "tired A4).

    Oh, you will make my buddies very angry though, see, you called them "fat-cat golf buddies"...ummmm lets see J (he owns the 55AM) he is 6-2 195lbs; P (owns the BMW 530) he was an all start in Basketball Division 1 in City College (NY) 5-9 190lbs of solid muscles; and yours truly 5-10 180 lbs and play basketball, baseball and snowboarding. See again/??? not all golfers are out of shape dear.... .

    Jesus! I almost forgot, we have a tee time at Van Cortlandt Park Golf Course in the Bronx at 6:00 am this coming Thursday. PLease feel free to come and we will welcome your 5 stroke. J (55AMG) will be more than happy to take you on your bet....just make sure you don't bring a Volvo to the bet , because he would be very very upset


    we don't know it all...........just enough to have an opion
  • mikenkmikenk Posts: 281
    Not being a real fan of either brand, I am curious. Are all Volvo and Audi owners as touchy as those on this thread?

    I think a golf tournament, Ryder Cup style, would be great to watch. The losers would have to spend an entire day sitting in the winners' cars.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Things are getting too personal. Please stick to the cars.

  • The interior of the S60R is very beautiful especially when compared to the S4. The Audi's interior I admit maybe screwed together somewhat better but there is NO way it is more beautiful than the S60R. The S60R's interior is LIVELY and has garnered praise - where as I read over and over that though the A4/S4 interior's are well made they can be staid, lacking in warmth.

    Once again the S60R is equal in terms of acceleration to the Audi S4 and does so at a lower price and has a driver selectable suspension. R&T indicated how the V70R can out slalom a Corvette.

    "Hans Nilsson: How a car should handle is a very personal taste. This car (Volvo S60R) is set to be neutral, with a tendency to understeer. We use the oversteer for steering into a curve. In the lower speed range, we have a setting for more rear-wheel drive.

    We have tested competitors on a racetrack. With an M3 around the track, there was also a tendency to understeer unless you force it to oversteer . I would say that when you go into aggressive oversteering to force a car around a corner, you lose a lot of speed. That is my personal opinion.

    But, with a clock, you will see that more oversteer is very often not faster, though it is fun."

    So when you read all these magazines proclaiming how fun it is to oversteer through corners - how practical is it ? How useful is it on the street ? The S60R is a better thoughout car for real world situations.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Those are Golf platforms so yeah, they use the VW AWD system, which happens to be a Haldex, like Volvo's. They just don't call it 4Motion because that is VW's trademark name, and Audi just uses Quattro generically.

    But neither of those are sedans. :P

    Ultimate does not equal practical. In fact it implies the opposite.

  • "Ultimate does not equal practical. In fact it implies the opposite. "

    But isn't the whole point of an AWD sport sedan to have car that is superior in the real world ? not a Dry Track.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    I'm saying that the S60 is in the near-luxury small sedan class, in terms of price, size, and features, and not the S40. I also don't think the interior is impressive- the interior, is, just a centre console. I don't know why you think the buttons waste space, though- it's a smart layout. And, another reason why the S60 is in that class is because the S80 is in the midsize luxury sedan class. Volvo makes no truly large sedan. No truly nice sedans, either. Or not nice enough.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    the "ultimate" AWD sport sedan is the new Bentley Continental. I think when most people think first about "ultimate," they think luxury, exclusivity, and performance. The Bentley fits that definition to a "T." All the others mentioned here are lacking at least on at least one of those attributes, and it's usually exclusivity.

  • "Volvo makes no truly large sedan. No truly nice sedans, either. Or not nice enough."

    ...That is truly B.S. Last time I checked the Europeans actually consider the S80 T6/Executive versions as smart alternative to costlier versions of the Audi A8 and BMW 7 series. I have issues of European magazines that make the comparison and play the S80 T6 right against the Audi A8.

    No, Volvo does not sell sedans at the same price bracket as some of their European competitors however that doesn't mean they can't compete. The S80 T6 will still run (despite being the oldest one of these competitors) with the Audi A8 and VW Pheaton.

    The S60R despite being much cheaper than the S4 will still run with it in terms of performance.

    I've OWNED both Audi's and Volvos - and have driven some of their latest products. Audi has nothing special going on over Volvo except selling some more expensive models. Audi's are LESS reliable, cost more to maintain and aren't as durable and often sell at a higher price point.

    Many American's seem to have this perceived superiority of German products (Despite all the data indicating poor reliabiliy for many of the makes)...people still brag about how superior Audi's and BMW's are however both these makes were putting drum brakes on their cars long after the Swedes switched to 4 wheel disc. Hell BMW had drums up until the early 90's on lesser variants of the 3 series.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Not necessarily, AWD shows its benefits even on that dry track. That's why the EVO and STi come from the factory with summer tires only.

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