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Buick Lucerne



  • - 15/BUSINESS

    Very syrprising because they have not alwayse liked US cars, even if they are supposed to ;)

    It would be nice if the lucerne got the 3.9L, either the current once (240 hp) or the new one at the ny auto show (270hp) as a base engine. The would help sales even more.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Isn't the 3.6 in the CTS suppose to be best V6 they have? Is that a German Opel engine? Why do they need to have so many V6 engines? Anyway, the reviews on the CTS with the 3.6 seem to be favorable. Just a thought.

    As for a bias against GM by those doing the reviews, I suppose it is possible, though the one paying the bills, as in advertising dollars is at least in part GM, so it would seem like biting the hand that feeds you.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The CTS's DOHC V6 is GM's global engine and is used by Saab for sure. I think that Opel is also using it in some sizes, but their website is evasive or at least I was unable to find anything. The CTS V6's are expensive engines. The pushrod V6's are cheaper engines.

    I will say this, I think that they should have developed a small (3 to 4 liter) V8 to use in smaller cars like the CTS. This engine could either replace the DOHC V6 line or the pushrod line.

    I think that the w-platform (Impala, Grand Prix and LaCrosse) will end production at the end of the 2008 model year. I would not be surprised to see the Lucerne and DTS cease production soon after that. I do not think that the Lucerne is going to get the 6 speed FWD transmission anytime soon if ever.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    For the Lucerne to get the 6 speed automatic, the powertrain would have to get recertified for emmissions, a costly process. If the Lucerne remains in production after the 2008 model year, when the 3800 production ends, then a new V6 engine and transmission combination would have to be certified and the 6 speed could be added. However, if the Lucerne will only have one additional year of production (2009 model year), then it would make sense to only offer the V8-4 speed automatic.

    The six speed automatic is going into production for the Saturn Aura first. Production of the six speed will be limited and supplying more than the Saturn is unlikely. The Aura is an early 2007 model, so some all new 2007 models might get the six speed too, but they may be delayed like the Lucerne was. I would expect some early all new 2008 models to get the six speed. As time goes on, production of the six speed will increase, and the six speed will replace more of the four speeds, but this will take a couple of years at best (2007 to 2009).
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Gm is down to 2 V6 families. the high value 3.5/3.9 and the High feature 2.8/3.6. At least here in the US. - tml

    Yes the 3.4 still hangs on in the Equinox/Torrent and the venerable 3800 in a few cars but they will be gone soon.
  • Stop making this car after only 2 or 3 years. I believe that when the 6speed is ready for this car they are going to (based on their cost structure at the time) put in the high feature or high value v6 (240 - 270hp) as the base engine and probably offer a FWD version of the newer Northstar V8 (320 hp) as the top of the line version.

    The DTS would use the same engine, but meybe by then it would be more powerful in the DTS. GM needs these cars, especially the DTS to cater to "older" buyers who are very loyal to the brand and prefer this type of car.

    If they really phase out the DTS then its a bad business case for the Lucerne? After 2008-2009 they should have these cars on newer platforms, probably with available AWD in adittion to stability control.

    What do you guys think?
  • poncho167poncho167 Posts: 1,178
    You sound like you are giving these cars an unwarranted death sentence. The platforms may change like you have mentioned, but the Lucerne has been a hit and it wouldn't make sense to discontinue it especially since it is a new name and model. I see the name being around a decade or more.

    As far as the GM/Ford developed six speed goes it also wouldn't make sense not to use it in most of the cars. There is a five speed they can use as well, but the six speed transmission will spread across the line.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I don't know what direction GM will take, but their current product line for cars is not working. They need to bring out something new and exciting. The latest Motor Trend suggests that the W-platform will be replaced by a RWD platform that will make the Camaro affordable. That suggests that the Impala, LaCrosse and perhaps the Grand Prix will become RWD sedans. This does not mean the Lucerne and DTS (large FWD sedans) will move to a RWD platform.

    However, the Lucerne/DTS platform is basically the same platform that the 1995 Aurora/Riviera were on. These two models started production in early 1994. That make the basic Lucerne/DTS platform 12 years old at this time, and in 5 years it will be 17 years old.

    Since they have announced a 6T75 version of the six speed automatic, good for engines up to 300 lb-ft of torque, it does make some sense that they may use it on the Lucerne/DTS, but this may depend on just how much longer they remain in production, which depends on how sales are. I think that if they are to remain in production for 5 years, they need to sell a total of 1 million copies to be profitable.

    It does not make much sense to me to put a 270 hp V6 in the Lucerne and still keep the 275 hp V8. I do think that a pushrod V6 makes sense for the base Lucerne, then perhaps a DOHC V6 for the CXL, and the V8 for the CXS. But if the 240 hp 3.6 is used in the CXL, then the CX should have less hp, perhaps the 3.5 V6. Otherwise, the 240 hp 3.9 V6 to replace the 3800 makes sense. This all assumes that the Lucerne will be in production through the 2010 model year (5 full years of production - 500,000 to 700,000 total copies).

    I really think that GM needs to bring out RWD large sedans to get serious attention from consumers. Right now the Lucerne and DTS are only attractive to current owners of large FWD cars - that is current Buick or Deville owners. Neither of these cars will bring new buyers into Buick or Cadillac dealerships, and that is what GM needs, new buyers.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,953
    "As far as the GM/Ford developed six speed goes it also wouldn't make sense not to use it in most of the cars. There is a five speed they can use as well, but the six speed transmission will spread across the line. "


    I am not aware of a 5 speed automatic trans. for FWD at GM.

    For RWD, yes, 1 is currently used by Caddy in the STSs (except STS-v) for example, but not for FWD. And I don't see 1 at gmpowertrain . .

    - Ray
    6 speeds, no waiting?
    2016 BMW 340i
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    I doubt the Lucerne or DTS or LaCrosse will ever see 2009 much less 2010 in their current architectures. Both cars were majors but heavily kept the old architectures. While they may not be profitable over their lifetimes due to lower than expected volumes (to be seen) they were meant to be short term models.

    Epsilon 2 will be the W car replacement as far as a high volume midsize vehicle to compete with the likes of Camry/Accord/Lexus ES. Buick needs a product in that size segment and it will probably be the LaCrosse/2009. The Large car is a dieing market and I see GM using a platform that is out there. If Zeta can be big enough then it will be the one, if not then Sigma. Or possibly the Lambda could be modified but I doubt it.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Correct GM decided to leapfrog the competition and go right to the 6 speed and skip all the development costs of the 5 speed. Unfortunately they are still behind!
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Motor Trend indicates that the Impala and LaCrosse will be replaced by a mid-sized RWD models that will also make a Camaro platform affordable.

    The Saturn Aura will be a FWD mid-size sedan. It makes some sense that some version of this could be sold at either Chevy_Cadillac or Buick_Pontiac_GMC dealers. Motor Trend's forcasting is not always accurate, but they do seem to get inside information from time to time.

    Buick is getting the Enclave (perhaps called an Estate xxx) in the very near future. Perhaps the 4T75 is for this vehicle. The Enclave may replace the Lucerne.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Enclave is a HUGE crossover to replace the Rainier/Miniva/Rendezvous. It is bigger than a Tahoe. Could never replace the Lucerne's market. BUT they could kill off the Lucerne due to very low market need (large inexpensive cars are dieing off).

    It is very possible that the LaCrosse moves to the Zeta but doubtful. Chevy has announced that the Impala will get larger and very probable it will be RWD. Sure seems like the Lucerne could be on the same architecture since the LeSabre and Impala used to be on the same architecture many years ago.

    Aura is the Epsilon 2. Malibu will also become Epsilon 2 as will the G6. Just not positive on the LaCrosse.
  • kfrielkfriel Posts: 31
    The Saturn Aura will be a FWD mid-size sedan. It makes some sense that some version of this could be sold at either Chevy_Cadillac or Buick_Pontiac_GMC dealers.

    They do already don't they? I thought that the Saturn was to be late to the party on the Saab 9-3 platform? Don't know the correct GM name of it but isn't the Aura the Chevy Malibu Maxx SS and the Pontiac G6 the same platform?

    And one other comment to the Gentleman that said the LuCerne is not attracting NEW customers only current Buick or Caddie owners. Here's one! that's why I'm on this list!
    First time ever I have a keen interest in a Buick.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Since GM cannot make money on their small cars they are going to be engineered in a market that can. Platforms going elsewhere: Aveo (Daewoo Gamma), Cobalt(Europe Delta), Malibu(Europe, Epsilon 2). I think everything else will remain herewith the possible exception of a Holden platform.
  • celica8celica8 Posts: 42
    The large car market is sizzling these days.

    Nearly 9 thousand Buick Lucernes were sold last month, and it is outselling both the Park AVenue and LeSabre from a year ago.

    The Chrysler 300 is selling very well.

    The Caddy DTS outsells the Deville.

    a Lucerne review:
  • All this speculation about the future of the lucerne seems a bit odd. The car just came out. I just stopped by Buick/Pont/gmc dealer and the sales manager said they are selling tons of the lucerne -- as in dozens a week. He said they're hardly on the lot before they're gone. Granted, this is in the midwest, so, as we know, people around here aren't as uber cool as they are in, say, L.A. :blush:
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I had not looked closely at the Enclave's spec's. It is much bigger than a crossover. The length and width are the same as the Tahoe, with the height about 6 inches less. The crossover was defined by the Audi Allroad I think; GM concept of what a crossover should be is warped. The Enclave will probably weigh over 4000 lbs, even with a V6.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    A crossover is a vehicle that is SUV like but based on a car platform. Enclave is what that is. It is the biggest so far that I know of. It will eat into the Trailblazer XL and short Tahoe market. That is why the Trailbalzer XL vehicles were dropped last month (I go the last one!)
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I think that a crossover should be a few inches taller than a wagon based on a sedan. Most large sedans are less than 60 inches tall, so any crossover more than say 65 inches tall is really a full SUV. Now if they manage to make the Enclave V6 less than 4000 lbs, I might reconsider.

    The Audi Allroad also have a driver selectable suspension height that varied the ground clearance. This allowed a low clearance for highway use and a higher clearance for off road use.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Crossover is not a definition of car or truck. It is an architecture that "crosses over" both types. ver_vehicles/

    Of course you can have your own definition. ;)
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    sls 002 stated:

    "It does not make much sense to me to put a 270 hp V6 in the Lucerne and still keep the 275 hp V8. I do think that a pushrod V6 makes sense for the base Lucerne, then perhaps a DOHC V6 for the CXL, and the V8 for the CXS. But if the 240 hp 3.6 is used in the CXL, then the CX should have less hp, perhaps the 3.5 V6. Otherwise, the 240 hp 3.9 V6 to replace the 3800 makes sense."

    When will GM ever learn. Just put the best engine in all Lucerne models, the Northstar V8. Price competitively with Avalon and Maxima. Don't see Toyota or Nissan offering multiple types of engines on their Avalon or Maxima. GM wastes a lot of resources on offering multiple engines.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Well, what I have been thinking is that I would like a nice station wagon. Something like the BMW 3 or 5 series wagon, but with a dealership closer to where I live than any BMW dealership is (over 300 miles). The Dodge Magnum is a possibility, but the Hemi is too big, although probably gets better gas mileage than the V6 Enclave.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Not much market for a wagon. I remeber seeing an internal report that said it was a market that no one was asking for. A bunch of us "experts" laughed when the Magnum came out so hot and heavy. No, a little while later, the Magnum is no longer selling. those that wanted something different and sporty with a Hemi bought them in the first year. Not functional enough for anybody I guess.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I think that they have sold about as many Magnums as Buick has sold Lucernes. But since there is now a Dodge sedan to go with the wagon, I would expect wagon sales to slow.

    Checking on sales, about 5000 Magnums in March, less than the Lucerne sales, but still quite strong.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    I somewhat agree except that the Lucerne has quite a price range. There is a good sized market that wants a large car and do not care if it has a large, premium engine. On the other side there is a market for a large car with a premium engine and all the bells and whistles.

    I guess the real answer to this is are they selling all base 3800's or all V8's. I would bet it is around 50/50.

    Now if the new base engine was similar in price and performance (say the 3.6 DOHC) to the V8 then no need for both. However if the 3.9 saves the consumer $2500 - $3000 over the V8 then it will sell.
  • jh1977jh1977 Posts: 40
    I agree with you, I believe GM should put the new 3.9 Liter engine in the base Lucerne. What I dislike about the current base Lucerne is its a full size car which has less HP and Torque than the base Lacrosse, Buick's midsize car. I would figure that a car brand's base full size car would have more power than its base midsize car. Maybe I'm missing something, can anyone explain it to me? I realize the 3800 Engine has been a great engine for Buick and other GM brands for a number of years, but time has past it by and its time for a new modern engine in the base Lucerne such as GM's new 3.9 Liter Engine. Any comments from you car experts? Sincerely.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,496
    >competition and go right to the 6 speed

    They ought to just go to the 12-speed. That will shut up those who count on numbers as to which is better, 4- or 5-or 6-speed. I don't understand the philosophy that more is better, always...

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    I assume they are going with a 6 speed next. Isn't there a joint effort between Ford and GM on the new 6 speed transmission. Or is it for smaller / lighter cars? Don't really know why they are using the 4 speed. And yes, I know it works. I had a 3 speed on the Achieve I had, and it worked too. Time marches on however.
  • "Geriatric Gangsta: DUB Pimps Out a Buick for the Aging Hip-Hopper"

    Once again, those 'crazy' writers at Edmunds are sooooo funny. Nevermind that they don't get it. I lived in Chicago. Lots of mean mutha gangstas driving Buicks there. I can totally see some gangstaed out Lucerne prowling down South State Street. Makes about as much sense as putting dubs on a farm, I mean an SUV. ;)
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