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I still want a twin turbo diesel, 6 speed manual, Toyota Landcruiser @30-35 mpg!!!
The VW sales man said the TDI’s should be arriving in September.
Can US service men stationed in Europe purchase a vehicle such as a Mini Diesel and bring it back to the US?
Best Regards,
Shipo
http://www.leftlanenews.com/vw-prices-jetta-tdi-sedan-and-sportwagen.html
Folks are getting 70 mpg when driving their Prius.
EPA folks are not getting 70 mpg.
advantages; essentially zero residue, and low
sulphur and nitrogen. However, severe thermally
based primary upgrading (coking) produces a
highly aromatic crude, with poor quality
distillates - jet and diesel fuel components - and
gas oils which must be converted in the refinery
to lighter gasoline and distillates."
In the graph on page 42 they say that "poor quality distillates limit many refineries to 10% or less of crude diet".
Source - OIL SANDS TECHNOLOGY ROADMAP: UNLOCKING THE POTENTIAL
As time goes on we will be relying more and more on the Canadian oil sands and less on Mexican conventional oil. The information in the report suggests that oil sands are not a great feedstock for distillates (diesel or jet fuel).
On the algae, it is almost: where won't algae grow? Eats C02 and produces oxygen (among other compounds) For sure, certain strains do better in different places, circumstances, yields, climates, etc.,etc. The hydroponic algae growth for D2 shows huge yield potential. If anything needs R & D, this comes pretty close to a high priority.
I have seen August in some articles and a VW sale man I talked with said September or October.
So, when are they going to get here? Not soon enough.
It will be interesting to see what % of the 2009 production years #'s will be diesels. Historically, ( I have read in a few places) the 2003 MY VW diesels were @4% of 225,000 produced ( app 9,000).
Some segments to all of MY 2009 would appear to have significant challenges, given the state of the current economic situation. My take are the sub compact. compact, med sized segments (Toyota Camry comes to mind) should do the best. PU/Trucks, SUV's, LARGE cars would be examples of segments that will probably have tough rows to hoe.
If they go the “premium” route, they may not get my money as I don’t play when it is MSRP +.
I also believe that diesel buyers are a small number and those on the fence only looking at pump prices are going to baulk at buying if diesel $0.50 more a gallon than RUG.
I hear you about the MSRP + pricing . It was indeed a factor in not getting the 2004 Prius. I probably would NOT have gotten the 2003 TDI if they demanded MSRP + pricing.
As for your last remark, it is indeed true.
While I have NOT seen the new 2009 MY, all indicators point to the VW diesels (Jetta specifically) to have a host of improvements over say the 2003 MY Jetta TDI. To make a long story short, I am excited about its debut.
1. They have kept the price the same (2003 MY) (sans the march of real inflation 3% per year. ( SO a 4k rise 667 per year)
2. redesigned the engine (aka" clean diesel" ) even as if the older design was clean
3. redesigned the rest of the vehicle
3. power increase is MONSTER ( @38%- 250 # ft vs 155# ft torque)
4. It is more BMW like,
5. quality is better,
6. indications by way of MY's 2003,2004, 2005,2006,2007,2008, the reliability has gotten better. JD Powers, etc.
I will probably do what you will do and WAIT, I backed into one of the best MY's, the 2003. But I didn't so much wait as decided to get the 2003 in 2003, which HAPPENED/S to be one of VW's better efforts. I only tell folks who really seem curious what my VW experiences are, otherwise mumm's the word.
I do get the occasional STOP you are putting DIESEL in your tank routine and even had it jerked out of my hands once.
http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?ID=29901
It is too bad a certain group of people don't believe in science based R&D. We would be a lot further along had the scientists been given the funding.
Folks can goggle this but 30,000 gal per "acre" of hydroponic would be the goal. Benchmark is currently at 15,000 gals per "acre" of hydroponic.
Who would you include in the group that don't believe in science based R&D? Do you think Algaewheel is result of science based R&D or someone looking to create a solution to a problem?
The ones that drive a Prius can get 70 mpg.
Will we have enough natural gas to make diesel? Don't hold your breath.
In the Middle East they are using the NG for integrated refinery-petrochemical facilities and oil-fired power plants. They are heading for a shortage.
"Gas shortages in the Middle East could also have big implications globally, impacting future regional projects aiming to meet demand elsewhere. "
http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Business_Feature/10216795.html
Canadian oil sands are continuing to use more and more NG. Our populations continue to grow. More people need more NG for heating and electrical generation. And if they start converting NG to hydrogen there will be even less available. I would not expect a lot of NG to diesel given the current state of the market.
"Natural gas consumption will rise more rapidly than the 1.6% annual gain in energy demand for the next 25 years, according to the Energy Information Administration. Expect prices to do the same."
http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/06/19/natural-gas-hydrogen-biz-energy-cx_wp_0620- natgas.html
Indeed folks are NARCOTIZED into Zombie like mantras against what you, and others have been saying all along. The % and numbers of gassers cars is literally 99x greater than diesel passenger cars. Logic would have the majority of passenger cars pollution being caused by the 98% of the passenger vehicle fleet burning more consumptive RUG to PUG!!!!! Yet those that don't want others to consider diesel cars to outright anti diesel are almost cult like in their mantra that diesel cars which are app 1% of the passenger vehicle fleet cause the majority of the air pollution. Absolutely and TOTALLY preposterous!
Indeed no study has shown that cars like Prius have even made a MEASURABLE effect on the LA air pollution index, let alone a statistically correlated link. Indeed during this time the diesel passenger vehicle fleet has actually gone DOWN 33% !!!!(from less than 3% of the passenger vehicle fleet to 2%) Needless to say the hybrid population has gone UP !!!!!
In addition use of bio diesel actually emits less pollution that electric CARS according to the Harvard study cited in a previous post.
NON MITIGATED mass transit, trains, ships, airplanes, farming, construction equipment, even unmitigated fire place use, etc which has been "regulated" (aka unregulated) continues unabated.
The biggest plus is when diesel drops below gas again, and it will, you are really knocking them dead.
1. Environmentalists have consistently seeked to increase regulations
2. the cost of regulations
3. cost of doing business
4. higher cost of cars
5. advocate higher price per gal (with the REAL and more important price per mile driven) going UP.
6. since Hurricane Katrina the prices have almost gone up exponentially.
7. Indeed the passenger diesel car fleet has gone down 33% and voile, the air pollution has actually gone UP!!! This is of course with the best sales/population of hybrids ever!!!
More than ever before D2 is the fuel for at least the next generation if not two generations!! (30-60 years- biblically 40-80 years)
1. less consumption, diesel is 20-40% better than like model RUG to PUG (which is better/worse 50 mpg/29 mpg? 98% of folks will chose the fuel source that gets 29 mpg. MORE IS better!?)
2. biodiesel has less emissions than electric cars, the acknowledge "holy grail" of environmental correctness
3. another is a diesel engine CAN/SHOULD be a portal to use of alternative fuel: biodiesel to name one,
a. Bio diesel is "renewable"
b. can be adapted from long standing waste streams (lists too long, capable making ones eyes glass over)
c.. can be adapted to future waste streams
d.. actually consumes C02 and yields oxygen on the production side
Might be hosts of good reasons why they are trying to make it economically not viable, limit to outright banning its use.
Actually the idea of a station wagon is growing on me. I guess for me one impediment is still the "exposed" boot. But I think it WAS as basic as station wagons are for "OLD" folks. Now that I am WAY passed 30 (I was 12 when I formed the opinion) , this at least really ceases to be an impediment.
Mass transit bus emissions have been regulated for a LONG time. California has required different engine/emissions calibrations for 30 years, and the venerable 2-stroke Detroit Diesel, which had been the workhorse of the American transit bus industry for 50 years, was rendered obsolete by the 1994 emissions rules.
kcram - Pickups Host
The BIGGEST milestone change has been going from LSD 500 ppm-140 ppm) to ULSD (15 ppm or less) since Oct 2006. The point has been made that change should have been done a minimum of 30 years ago. So we have at least 30 years of "mitigated" unmitigated regulation. However LSD and above is still being used AND by law. Bunker oil is still being used on ships/military ships for example. (INXS of 5000 ppm)
The real questions, were all of them swapped out to the latest diesel engines or are they grand fathered till they die? For example (all) mass transs/school buses have not undergone (new) diesel retro fits. Essentially the "upgrades" have been to run the ULSD, for optimization to be sure!! This is to limit equipment damage costs ! TILL that time, there are still a lot of older type (unmitigated) diesels in the mix. You and I would probably agree burning ULSD IS FAR better than LSD and above.
Let me use the 2003 TDI for example, I ran the majority of miles on LSD while it had/has been designed for a LONG time to be run on ULSD. It would be a no brainer to say that my pollution has dropped 97% just on the switch. (500 ppm to 15 ppm or less) So rather than be applauded for MASSIVE decreases, they are vilified for being less than clean.
Indeed these points have been made in past posts. Still the majority of what causes the REAL pollution is regulated/mitigated, to be unmitigated; sort of a " yes we HAVE no banana's today" !!
Indeed a total no brainer now is RUG to PUG (30 ppm) is 2x DIRTIER than ULSD (30 ppm vs 15 ppm). Compared to bio diesel (5-ZERO ppm), RUG to PUG is essentially exponentially (6x) to off the charts dirtier !!
So how much more a gal would it cost to get RUG to PUG at parity to ULSD!!!?? This is potentially explosive especially in today's high per gal RUG to PUG prices.
About 10 days ago the wife and I looked at the new (gas version) VW Spotswagon and even the (anti station wagon) wife was impressed. She kind of feels like you do, old people’s car. I don’t have the heart or the guts to tell her the car is now “age appropriate”.
We did not get to take a really good look by sitting in it, etc. as they were getting it ready for a customer to take a test drive, but if it comes in about $25k to $27K it might be well worth waiting for.
I am just the opposite. I was about 14 when the 1957 Chevy Nomad came out. I was hooked on wagons and have liked them better than sedans ever since. I don't think I have ever bought a sedan. Unless you count the 78 Honda Accord hatchback a sedan. I am more of a utility vehicle type and the SUV or wagon fits my desire to be able to haul stuff. Looks like I will have several diesel options over the next 12 months.
And that is a good thing. Some of us care about what other people breath.
“Over 9.4 million seniors and 20.6 million children live in counties with unhealthful short-term levels of particle pollution. Nearly 2.6 million people with chronic bronchitis and 1.1 million with emphysema live in counties with unhealthful levels of short-term particle pollution. "
American Lung Association STATE OF THE AIR 2008
“Indeed the passenger diesel car fleet has gone down 33% and voile, the air pollution has actually gone UP!!! “
First, what source are you using and over what time frame? There are many reasons for air pollution levels to change – economic activity and populations changes just to name two.
“Air pollution continued to challenge the nation in 2004, 2005, and 2006. Some cities—notably Los Angeles and Houston—managed to steadily cut ozone and particle pollution. Progress stalled in many other cities, however, slowing or eroding gains recorded earlier in the decade.”
American Lung Association STATE OF THE AIR 2008
I guess CARB is doing a good job.
“This is of course with the best sales/population of hybrids ever!!!”
If it were not for the hybrids the pollution levels would be worse. I will remind you that the Prius emits 4.0 tons of CO2 per year to the 6.4 tons for the 09 Jetta Diesel Auto.
“More than ever before D2 is the fuel for at least the next generation if not two generations!! (30-60 years- biblically 40-80 years)”
That remains to be seen. You need to look at this from a global perspective. The massive buildup in Asia and the Middle East will require a lot of diesel. We do not know how much oil is out there and at what cost to produce, so predicting even 10 years out is a WAG.
“less consumption, diesel is 20-40% better than like model RUG to PUG..”
Most people will not limit themselves to just the VW models. Annual fuel costs for the Jetta diesel is $2132 the Pirus is $1328.
“biodiesel has less emissions than electric cars, the acknowledge "holy grail" of environmental correctness”
Not if the electric cars are powered by wind or solar generated electricity.
http://www.cleantechblog.com/2008/06/turbo-diesels-take-on-hybrids.html
“Forget putting B100 biodiesel in these new engines with common rail and very high pressure injection. Don’t think about home brewed vegetable oil or recycled restaurant grease. Even B20 voids the warranty in the U.S., although not in Europe where biodiesel quality is better. B5 is the limit in the U.S.”
This is the first I heard that you cannot run better than B5. I'm sure the memo is around here someplace. Any thoughts on that?
I am a bit curious to see how far the next Honda hybrid or Toyota hybrid leaps past the current generation. They could be diesel killers.
And I would not exclude YOU. If for some reason you felt left out. :confuse:
Even as you advocate( the vastly higher % of vehicles) using dirtier and more expensive RUG to PUG (30 ppm vs ULSD 15 ppm, B100 approaches ZERO ppm, but you know that and its been said on this thread MORE than once)
..." guess CARB is doing a good job. "...
You might want to re read msg #6149 and Gagrice's before about LA LA's air pollution.
Not according to your own quote
...“Over 9.4 million seniors and 20.6 million children live in counties with unhealthful short-term levels of particle pollution. Nearly 2.6 million people with chronic bronchitis and 1.1 million with emphysema live in counties with unhealthful levels of short-term particle pollution. "
American Lung Association STATE OF THE AIR 2008 "...
...Most people will not limit themselves to just the VW models. Annual fuel costs for the Jetta diesel is $2132 the Pirus is $1328."...
Your figures are greatly exagerated for like mileage and @ say 50 mpg. So at 4.91 D2, 4.53 RUG= 434 gals, =293 gals, that is 21,700 miles vs 14,650 miles. 7050 miles more with diesel. If you like to pay more to get less?... They are truly your nickels.
"I am a bit curious to see how far the next Honda hybrid or Toyota hybrid leaps past the current generation. They could be diesel killers. "...
I seriously considered a 04 Prius. Toyota Corolla trumps the Prius (I actually chose a 04 Civic) . A Toyota Corolla diesel trumps even that. It might be why Toyota doesn't sell its Corolla diesels here. (it trumps BOTH and you get more commute value for even less money)
Or most likely NOT!
I am sure you know that is NOT true. The warranty can only be voided if the fuel is proven to cause a problem. Many people in Hawaii are driving VW and MB diesels on B100. The popular vehicles for many being the E320 CDI and the VW Beetle TDI.. There is a rental agency in Hawaii that rents VW Beetle Diesels running on B100. Good quality B100 is far superior to ULSD. The one downside is gelling at low temperatures. That is not a problem for me as I don't plan to go anywhere cold ever again.
http://www.bio-beetle.com/biodieselrentalcarsfaqs.htm
Here is a list of companies running their fleets on B100:
http://www.sqbiofuels.com/community.htm
If B100 is good enough for Willie Nelson, it is good enough for me...
http://www.autobloggreen.com/tag/Willie+Nelson/
Compare Willie Nelson's Carbon Footprint to some of the so called green stars like Madonna....
...
Seems like Al Gore has a long way to go to catch up (aka get down) to even YOUR carbon foot print! :shades:
Pretty telling when the proponent doesn't do the very things he advocates. Or we can perhaps take the Avalon02wh view, AL Gore's carbon foot print could be WAY MORE if he didn't advocate less than $25,000 per month electrical use. :lemon:
It would be way easier for me to do less than $75 per mo if they:
1. stop raising the price
2. let me get off the grid
3. let me sell power to the grid
4. fed, state, loca, l tax CREDITS
5. fed, state, local, tax write offs
6. profit from selling power to the grid.
Most people know this, but the power food chain fights this tooth and nail.
Three if's,
1. Average yearly mileage of 12,000 to 15,000 miles
2. majority of trips are 50 miles or less
3. plug in electrical range of up to 250 miles
3a. in effect, the electrical range (250 miles as a practical target for a bunch of practical reasons) is the linchpin to turning the now primary fuel (D2 in this example and in keeping on topic) into SECONDARY fuel. ( or customer's choice, of course)
3b. D2 nexus is unchanged in relation to RUG to PUG @ 20-40% better. Bio diesel either as a primary or secondary fuel source/s has/have better emission patterns than electric cars, let alone RUG to PUG emissions.
Then
Combined with a 700 mile range (@ 50 mpg with 14.5 gal D2 tank)
You can have a 950 mile range @ effective fuel mpg of 68 mpg! But it can be WAY better than that if the majority of trips are less than 50 miles. Indeed most of the mileage can now be FREE (see above). 14.5 gals would now be within the realm of lasting all year or 12,000 to 15,000 miles. (aka 1,071 fuel miles per gal) As I have said this potential and proposal are HUGE HUGE HUGE problems for regulators and the RUG to PUG food chain.
There has never been nor will ever be a REAL FUEL shortage !!!
Is there a real fuel shortage? Absolutely!! It can have catastrophic world wide propotions. However it is a series of choices and NOT a a series of inevitablities
..."According to MSNBC "December sales are expected to fall around 4 percent, which would bring the full-year total for U.S. auto sales to 16.1 million vehicles, the lowest volume since 1998.""...
link title
Now for the bad news:
"American auto sales are projected to fall year-over-year by about 1 million to 15 million vehicles in 2008,"
link title
Flat earth responses not withstanding, thanks for the thoughtful and intelligent post.
It is unfortunate that when I post "...Most people will not limit themselves to just the VW models. Annual fuel costs for the Jetta diesel is $2132 the Pirus is $1328."..."
The response is "Your figures are greatly exagerated for like mileage"
They are not my figures, for one. Second the spread is large enough that if you get a bit more mpg in the diesel when compared to the EPA figures the Prius is still way ahead.
I talked to a new owner of a Prius the other day. With only 2K on the car he has already seen 50 on the highway and 45 in town. Which is mileage that only the VW Jetta TDI is supposed to make.
My favorite of course is the 20 to 40% rule. Diesels always get at least that much more than RUG. Yet when you bring up the fact that diesel is currently 70 cents more than RUG for the national average, you get the response, well it will get better. OK, when diesel is within about 25 cents, we can talk. But the reality is that as of now the extra cost for a diesel plus the higher per gallon cost wipes out much if not all the advantage.
Jeep Grand Cherokee 2WD 18 city 23 hwy $3518 diesel
Jeep Grand Cherokee 2WD 15 city 20 hwy $3599 Regular
Not sure your point. You are comparing apples to oranges. Kind of like comparing a Porsche 911 to a Yugo. If you just want to compare MPG the Honda CRX HF was a great little fuel miser. Plus you could drive it on a windy or winding highway with out getting blown off the road with the smallest of wind gusts. I think most would concede the Prius is good city commuter car. It is not the all round vehicle that the Jetta is.
Have you spent much time behind the wheel of a VW TDI in the last 5 years? Having driven both there is NO comparison. My 05 Passat Wagon was roomier, more comfortable, solid built and far far better handling under all conditions.
With the Jeep you also fudged a bit. You compared the 6 cylinder diesel to the 6 cylinder gas GC. That is hardly a good comparison. The diesel engine in the GC has more torque than the 5.7 L V8 engine. The diesel engine gets 25% better mileage than the V8 using the EPA ratings.
Current West Coast diesel $4.85 RUG $4.45 (CA is only 38 cents apart)
Jeep Grand Cherokee 2WD 18 city 23 hwy $3637 diesel
Jeep Grand Cherokee 2WD 15 city 20 hwy $4450 Regular
With the premium of just $1010 for the diesel engine which includes a larger battery, alternator & fuel tank. It will only take 1.24 years to pay off the diesel premium. Find a hybrid that will do that. Just for the record. The people reporting the ACTUAL mileage on the EPA website for the GC diesel paid off the premium in less than a year. All reporting got better than the Estimate from EPA.
The gap between diesel and RUG as of 6/16/08 for the US was 61 cents. I imagine that will be closer today when they post. The 70 cent gap is for the East Coast.
The response is "Your figures are greatly exaggerated for like mileage"
They are not my figures, for one. Second the spread is large enough that if you get a bit more mpg in the diesel when compared to the EPA figures the Prius is still way ahead. "...
The actual response:
"Your figures are greatly exagerated for like mileage and say 50 mpg. So at 4.91 D2, 4.53 RUG= 434 gals, =293 gals, that is 21,700 miles vs 14,650 miles. 7050 miles more with diesel. If you like to pay more to get less?... They are truly your nickels"...
It is interesting how you spin the spin even as you ignore the mathematics done in the same post. Indeed they are not my figures EITHER, I just did the math given the $'s claimed which YOU cited, cost as per YOUR example, if like mpg was your point !! Yet you still cling to your exaggerated results !! When I called you on it, you tell me they are not your figures, yet still ignore the math and continue to spin your mistaken notion.
You are entitled to your opinion. However the facts and figures (from your own cited example) do not back up your exaggerated assertions. You are in effect saying 494 gals = 293 gals!!! If I heard that at a cocktail party, I would just move on!.....