Why is our government blocking alternative energy like solar, biofuel, etc? One important answer is that EPA is run by a political appointee who totes the administration's line and has been probably been bought by the special interests who do not want to see the newer technologies take hold.
As far as I know all on-road diesel is now ULSD and municipalities must use it. I have yet to find a diesel station here in Montgomery County Maryland that sells LSD (500 PPM). Everyone I have been to, even just to look has ULSD.
Modern diesels still produce some PM, even when they use ULSD or biodiesel, thus the filters on the exhaust systems. If the refiners were required to remove more of the aromatic compounds found in diesel fuel, then particulate levels would drop significantly.
I went to had tomatoes of every kind at the same prices they were at on May 20th.
Maybe where you shop. Ours went from $1.29 per lb to $2.99 over that time frame. I guess you do not consider destroying $250 million worth of tomatoes a big deal. The FDA screwed up. It must be nice to only have good thoughts about the waste of tax dollars. I am just not of that ilk.
Actually, I'm waiting for the ( your) gloom and doom predictions to come true. It would be good to get a (slightly) used one from someone who doesn't think it accelerates 0-60 in close to 7 seconds, or is an unhappy camper for whatever the reason Needless to say, I am not holding my breath.
But the history will indicate I got the last year of the A-4 model/platform year- 03. I also got the second to the last year- 04 of the Gen-7 Honda Civic (gasser). :shades:
The thing for me that puts the woo in the woo hoo is the 50 mpg with 34% more # ft of torque!!! (155# ft vs 236# ft). Hp is up @ 140 from 90 hp (36%)
... There's no way they will be able to build enough TDI's, but like the '57 Ford Retractable, the Diesel will bring people into the showroom. So they ought to have a few demos on hand.
... The Labs (Google News) just licensed their new patent DeNOx catalyst to Integrated Fuel Technologies. This downstream grated brick (after a particulate trap) reduces NOx by a stunning 95 percent. The catalyst is relatively inexpensive and hopefully (imho) should SCRAP urea injection and EGR. Diesel engines will also be returned to a natural order in that they are HEAT conversion devices not some bureaucratic series of blunders regulated into existence, by regs that don't even make sense for gasoline engines. Yes, there is another way of looking at this, the regs are the Mother of invention, even if they almost killed us with GHG, and billions of gallons of wasted fuel. .. ... I think if this technology and Green Diesel Corp's injector can be brought to market, and a properly built and tuned engine, we are looking at 75 MPG in a small sedal. Hybrids will not even be a factor; however a huge amount of money is going to be wasted on the soon to be hyped hybrids by the PR gangs.
Sounds like some great inventions. The only down side I see to diesel is availability. The EU in their wisdom decided to save fuel and work out the bugs as they became apparent. In the USA we were controlled by the oil companies and saving fuel was the last thing that Congress was interested in doing. Now we are behind by a mile and diesel will be a precious commodity while there is a glut of gasoline coming from the EU and elsewhere. Same situation that faced the oil producers 100 years ago. Until a good supply of biodiesel from algae or coal arrives we will probably see higher diesel prices.
... Ironically by the USA being behind in the Diesel tech we may have superseded the entire urea infrastructure before it even got started. @ 75 MPG I think there will be fuel availiable.
Upstate NY's, ( NY represented by Senator's Schumer/Clinton among others) Corning has for a few years (over 3 decades) been involved in D2 particulate filtering (ceramic). Indeed if I am not incorrect (anyone can googgle further) they are a vendor/sub vendor for VW (among others). The following is NOT a vendor confirmation.
This has nothing to do with diesels in the news. Don't know how it even got here.
But while it's here:
Gary, were you head of the FDA when the salmonella outbreak started, what would you have done differently?
(regardless of your answer, there is no GOOD answer. They went on the evidence they had at the time and made a decision in the best interest of SAFETY. My kids' life is worth more than $250 million of tomatoes. Your grandkids' lives are too I'd bet. The good of the many matters more than the good of the few.)
The issue was appropriate/inappropriate bending to political pressures.......to price dislocations due to government meddling..... The other germane issue is because of the lack of specificity and removal of the ACTUAL bacteria vectors, salmonella can easily resurface. In fact, count on it.
Is there anyone else but me that have noticed this. The greenies advocate NOT burning energy, yet are not behind ANY non burn able alternatives? So for example the greenies should be beating down the cities/counties/states/fed doors to offer tax advantages to convert housing/industry/ etc to providing a % of energy (alternative) to homes/industries/etc., being (NNN) net net net PRODUCERS of energy. It has literally been impossible for a min of couple of generations for that to happen. Indeed greenies are into blocking "green projects" from happening. What is particularly telling: energy for the HOME is actually MUCH more consumptive than energy for transportation- and exponentially!!!
Well, the price of solar is coming down with silicon prices. Look for the boom everyone is expecting in the next 5 years.
I was VERY close last week (just saying "yes") to buying a solar water heater system for $6200 with tax credits and utility rebates making the net cost to me $2250 but instead I opted for a "lifetime warranty" Marathon water tank and a heat pump add-on which will reduce my hot water cost by even more than the solar would have and costs about $200 less than solar. Payback 4 years versus about 8 for the solar system. Solar water heaters are great but are not perfect for EVERY situation.
Right. In the case of being a producer, i.e., 2,3,4, times consumption, you would be actually MAKING money selling back to the grid !!!! However I think that is AGAINST the LAW !!! :lemon: And it will remain so for all but the most specialize applications. Since this is a diesel thread, imagine if you will being able to plug in your plug in electric diesel with 250 miles electrical range: cost- FREE!!!!!!!! with a D2 tank that has a range of 700 plus miles. So unless you routinely go over 250 miles in a trip (per recharge) d2 conceivably would be a reserve tank. So a theoretical range is 950 miles.
So like I have said, there is REALLY no energy crisis.
The federal government will do a sweeping study of the environmental effects of solar power plant development on public land in the Southwest, in part to speed up approval of solar projects.
But for developers, the study may be a fast track to the slow lane. While the Bureau of Land Management, which controls 67 percent of Nevada land, including many rural areas where solar arrays would be located, completes a lengthy study, the agency will impose a moratorium on new applications to put solar panels on federal land. Developers will have to wait at least 22 months — until at least spring 2010 — for the results of the study.
Brooks and other solar energy insiders said the moratorium, especially coupled with uncertainty in Congress over long-term tax credits for solar development, would discourage solar manufacturers from locating in the Southwest.
“If you delay the process much ... industry might go to another nation,” Brooks said. “If you’re going to make the process more cumbersome in all six states where solar is most viable, there is absolutely no sense in locating manufacturing” in Nevada.
The BLM has received 125 applications — including 23 in Nevada — to use federal land for solar plants.
The oldest of the 125 was filed more than three years ago, according to Katherine Gensler, manager of regulatory and legislative affairs with the Solar Energy Industries Association.
Of course we know that the Federal Government does all things good for US.. So 5 years to decide if a solar farm should go in the desert is a good thing. I can almost guarantee their is a 3 toed lizard lover blocking the progress. Many environmental groups WANT ZERO progress. We see it in every government agency.
"Yes! We Have No Bananas" is the title of a novelty song by Frank Silver and Irving Cohn that was a major hit in 1923, and one of the top songs of the 20th century. The song was recorded by Billy Jones, Arthur Hall, Irving Kaufman and others that year, and covered later by Benny Goodman and his Orchestra, Spike Jones & His City Slickers and many more. It also inspired a follow-up, "I've Got the Yes! We Have No Bananas Blues", recorded by Jones and others in 1923.
Were there diesel passenger cars in 1923? Just to stay on topic.
Well yes in case we need to get back to the subject, it is like when I bought the 03 TDI designed for ULSD and LSD was commonly available. Of course the greenie mantra at that time was "dirty" diesel. Really not my fault LSD was the commonly available brew. Just as % wise there are very few home electrical producers.
"The good of the many matters more than the good of the few." =========================================================== Good point with qualifications - the rights of the minority need always to be protected. Same point goes for diesel particulates and those with compromised, or even healthy respiratory systems.
"IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY." ============================================================ On the flat planet nothing more complex than that statement can be grasped.
Here on the round planet world events have a staggering range of complexity. The real and complex problem of auto dependence, not oil dependence which is just a symptom, is not yet broadly discussed.
Beats the heck out of the alternative. BUS DEPENDENCE. :P
We here on the flat planet want to go as far as we can on a gallon of diesel in our OWN private vehicle. With whomever we choose to share our PRIVATE vehicle with. Those that like to travel on a bus, go for it. Just do not try to push your brand of Communism off on the rest of US. If you read the news you will see that most of the world would love to have the same lifestyle we have built in this country. They are sneaking in by the millions to share in our success as a country. In fact tomorrow we celebrate getting out from under the tyranny that would have taxed US unmercifully then shoved us all in a bus to go make a few shillings more for the King's treasury. Long live the United States of America and the individual, along with our right to the pursuit of the American dream car. And it ain't a Prius.
You know the old expression, you snooze you lose. You should be camped out at the dealer right now. All you need is a sleeping bag and a few crazy friends - for a TDI sit in. If people lined up for PS3 and Wii game machines the least you can do is line up for a state of the art common-rail diesel with an impressive 236 lbs.-ft. of torque. http://www.vw.com/jettasportwagen/tdi/en/us/
I don’t believe anyone would think it is “truly” about the money and nothing else. Many things evolve to create rules, regs., etc, etc. to protect, however, regarding the issue to which I made the statement “its all about the money” I believe that statement to be the case.
While it is important to monitor what is burned in auto engines, (this was an issue) the biggest issue the State had was the fact that they were being cheated out of “road tax revenue”, i.e. the money.
While I would love to continue on with this debate, I don’t have the energy and I’m rapidly losing interest. I will also do my best in the future to provide more detailed information so the literalist among us can better understand what I’m saying.
Kind of a sick commentary on our society. One Media source gets people to tell all about their use of SVO and then the Feds and State arrest them and take them to court for using a non regulated fuel in their cars without BIG BROTHER'S getting his money. If a person is using the stuff it would be best to keep your mouth shut and go on driving.
I might camp out if they were giving one away to the first 100 in line. I HATE waiting in any line for anything.
"Long live the United States of America and the individual, along with our right to the pursuit of the American dream car." =========================================================== That disturbed and distorted idea is essentially what killed the nation, and now denigrates the memories of those people who died for it, people who would no longer recognize what it has become.
"I HATE waiting in any line for anything." ============================================================ You are already there, with more "in line" time coming at you fast. Stamping one's feet has never altered the outcome of anything. Maybe if you click your heels and say "Auntie Em"?
"Just listen Lou Dobbs... " ============================================================ Now that is truly funny! When you are through there you can listen to my three year old Granddaughter for a counter point
You nay have missed out on a better deal. My former brother-in-law down South has been selling power back to the grid for several years now - he has the first nickel his Dad ever earned and is now many thousand of dollars ahead of the game. He celebrated by buying a Shelby Mustang, gas model, no diesel available. He leaves it in the garage most of the time and bikes to work!
"I am not sure where you got all this diesel religion? "
No religions for me, I'm a freethinker, but I figured you would be one of the first down at the local VW dealer to test drive a TDI. My closest VW dealer is 200 miles away. Next year when Honda and Subaru introduce their diesel engines I will give them a whirl.
Diesel will be just one of many options down the road. When the time comes to get a new vehicle I'll be looking at just about everything available.
I am curious to see how the diesel prices will go in the future. The EIA is still reporting that the refining cost for diesel is twice that of gasoline. That would suggest that diesel is going to continue to be more expensive than RUG by a good 30 to 40 cents.
And then, I keeping reading stories about how diesel demand is going to be high - see below. High demand means high prices.
"Distillates (jet fuel, kerosene, diesel and other gasoil) will remain the main growth drivers of world oil demand,...." "With 48% of global product demand growth over the next five years concentrated in middle distillate fuels, generating sufficient product to meet demand will continue to be a challenge, according to the report."
Been there done that. Bought solar power for my home in Lake Havasu, AZ about 1983. System quit after 3 or 4 years, dealer gone out of business, I was out $10,000. Now the systems are $50k with a lousy tax incentive. NO THANKS
Latest BUS nightmare.
Wife's aunt gets on Greyhound BUS in Tucson, AZ for trip to Temecula, CA Last Friday. Cousin waiting at the Greyhound bus stop from 6:00 PM till after 9:30 PM for her 87 year old mother. Calls Greyhound and cannot find anyone with a clue about the bus. They go home and wait. 2AM the sheriff pulls into their driveway with lights flashing. Your mother is in the Bus station in San Diego. All she had was her daughter's address. They drive the 75 miles to San Diego and find her sleeping on the floor of the ladies room. She is fine NO THANKS TO MASS TRANSIT. The bus broke down and she was put on a direct to San Diego bus.
You ride the stinking buses, I'll drive my SUV that smells like french fries if the EPA don't try to throw us all in jail for using a waste product to power our vehicles. That is if I can even buy a biodiesel burning SUV here in the land of the Free... :sick:
Utopian waste of our tax dollars is getting old and not doing much good. Cut off all public funding of mass transit. Let the systems support themselves. Why should I pay for you to ride the bus or trolley. You want to ride you pay...The people need to rise up and stop this waste. For those that want a cheap ride get a bicycle.
The only thing I can figure is the process to remove all but 15 PPM sulfur has doubled the cost of refining diesel. It used to be cheaper. The bright side is it makes alternatives such as GTL and biodiesel from algae more affordable. I am against using food crops for biodiesel. If they can produce clean diesel from coal that is also a good source. I do think that we have seen the last of the cheap flying. I do not know how the airlines will stay in business. Well several have not. Major cities may be the only places served by air.
I read the article on gas hybrid buses in Long Beach. Some one posted here that CA was rid of all their diesel buses. I guess Long Beach did not get the word. As of 2007 they are still using mostly diesel. San Diego has converted to CNG which does not get nearly as good a mileage. So that is an added expense. The article claims that the hybrids are more economical to run. Yet LBT says different in their report. They also do not mention that the hybrid buses are at least twice as expensive. While Long Beach has horrible pollution. Most is due to ocean transport. I guess if the LB taxpayers are willing to pony up for overpriced buses that is their money.
The growth in demand for distillates is understandable. IT IS THE SUPERIOR fuel. How far would a 747 get on RUG? The increased demand for diesel will help those driving gas cars. It is as always the trash product from the refinery. The only way to get decent mileage with gas is to add a lot of expensive complexity in the form of a hybrid.
The car would probably work for a person doing a long one hour plus commute even with a price north of $30k. I'll let someone else do the math.
I wonder how well the carbon monocoque will do in our winters. It will also be interesting to see how the windshield wipers do when we get snow and ice.
Comments
The EPA protects Americans from dangerous air and water. There is no Conservative or Liberal way to accomplish that.
Modern diesels still produce some PM, even when they use ULSD or biodiesel, thus the filters on the exhaust systems. If the refiners were required to remove more of the aromatic compounds found in diesel fuel, then particulate levels would drop significantly.
Maybe where you shop. Ours went from $1.29 per lb to $2.99 over that time frame. I guess you do not consider destroying $250 million worth of tomatoes a big deal. The FDA screwed up. It must be nice to only have good thoughts about the waste of tax dollars. I am just not of that ilk.
Just listen Lou Dobbs...
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/presidentbush/2008/07/should-bush-be.html
Clinton was owned by the same special interest groups.
I'm disappointed, I thought for sure you would be camped out at the dealer waiting for the first TDI to get delivered.
Here's a smathering of indicators why.
link title
link title
But the history will indicate I got the last year of the A-4 model/platform year- 03. I also got the second to the last year- 04 of the Gen-7 Honda Civic (gasser). :shades:
The thing for me that puts the woo in the woo hoo is the 50 mpg with 34% more # ft of torque!!! (155# ft vs 236# ft). Hp is up @ 140 from 90 hp (36%)
And that's bad... why?
..
... I think if this technology and Green Diesel Corp's injector can be brought to market, and a properly built and tuned engine, we are looking at 75 MPG in a small sedal. Hybrids will not even be a factor; however a huge amount of money is going to be wasted on the soon to be hyped hybrids by the PR gangs.
link title
While this might be, I do not know how current this is.
link title
But while it's here:
Gary, were you head of the FDA when the salmonella outbreak started, what would you have done differently?
(regardless of your answer, there is no GOOD answer. They went on the evidence they had at the time and made a decision in the best interest of SAFETY. My kids' life is worth more than $250 million of tomatoes. Your grandkids' lives are too I'd bet. The good of the many matters more than the good of the few.)
I was VERY close last week (just saying "yes") to buying a solar water heater system for $6200 with tax credits and utility rebates making the net cost to me $2250 but instead I opted for a "lifetime warranty" Marathon water tank and a heat pump add-on which will reduce my hot water cost by even more than the solar would have and costs about $200 less than solar. Payback 4 years versus about 8 for the solar system. Solar water heaters are great but are not perfect for EVERY situation.
On the "Diesels in the News" front:
GMC to use a urea tank in future clean diesels? Maybe.....
(as we are often on opposite sides of the discussion)
but you made a good decision! ....
back to regular programming
So like I have said, there is REALLY no energy crisis.
But for developers, the study may be a fast track to the slow lane. While the Bureau of Land Management, which controls 67 percent of Nevada land, including many rural areas where solar arrays would be located, completes a lengthy study, the agency will impose a moratorium on new applications to put solar panels on federal land. Developers will have to wait at least 22 months — until at least spring 2010 — for the results of the study.
Brooks and other solar energy insiders said the moratorium, especially coupled with uncertainty in Congress over long-term tax credits for solar development, would discourage solar manufacturers from locating in the Southwest.
“If you delay the process much ... industry might go to another nation,” Brooks said. “If you’re going to make the process more cumbersome in all six states where solar is most viable, there is absolutely no sense in locating manufacturing” in Nevada.
The BLM has received 125 applications — including 23 in Nevada — to use federal land for solar plants.
The oldest of the 125 was filed more than three years ago, according to Katherine Gensler, manager of regulatory and legislative affairs with the Solar Energy Industries Association.
Of course we know that the Federal Government does all things good for US.. So 5 years to decide if a solar farm should go in the desert is a good thing. I can almost guarantee their is a 3 toed lizard lover blocking the progress. Many environmental groups WANT ZERO progress. We see it in every government agency.
YES!! We have (NO) bananas today!!
"Yes! We Have No Bananas" is the title of a novelty song by Frank Silver and Irving Cohn that was a major hit in 1923, and one of the top songs of the 20th century. The song was recorded by Billy Jones, Arthur Hall, Irving Kaufman and others that year, and covered later by Benny Goodman and his Orchestra, Spike Jones & His City Slickers and many more. It also inspired a follow-up, "I've Got the Yes! We Have No Bananas Blues", recorded by Jones and others in 1923.
Were there diesel passenger cars in 1923? Just to stay on topic.
===========================================================
Good point with qualifications - the rights of the minority need always to be protected. Same point goes for diesel particulates and those with compromised, or even healthy respiratory systems.
============================================================
On the flat planet nothing more complex than that statement can be grasped.
Here on the round planet world events have a staggering range of complexity. The real and complex problem of auto dependence, not oil dependence which is just a symptom, is not yet broadly discussed.
Beats the heck out of the alternative. BUS DEPENDENCE. :P
We here on the flat planet want to go as far as we can on a gallon of diesel in our OWN private vehicle. With whomever we choose to share our PRIVATE vehicle with. Those that like to travel on a bus, go for it. Just do not try to push your brand of Communism off on the rest of US. If you read the news you will see that most of the world would love to have the same lifestyle we have built in this country. They are sneaking in by the millions to share in our success as a country. In fact tomorrow we celebrate getting out from under the tyranny that would have taxed US unmercifully then shoved us all in a bus to go make a few shillings more for the King's treasury. Long live the United States of America and the individual, along with our right to the pursuit of the American dream car. And it ain't a Prius.
http://www.vw.com/jettasportwagen/tdi/en/us/
I suppose you haven't even started making home brewed biodiesel yet either. :sick:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/30/AR2008063002280.- html
While it is important to monitor what is burned in auto engines, (this was an issue) the biggest issue the State had was the fact that they were being cheated out of “road tax revenue”, i.e. the money.
While I would love to continue on with this debate, I don’t have the energy and I’m rapidly losing interest. I will also do my best in the future to provide more detailed information so the literalist among us can better understand what I’m saying.
I might camp out if they were giving one away to the first 100 in line. I HATE waiting in any line for anything.
Have a great 4th of JULY. Hope the Sportwagon TDI turns out to be what you are wanting in a new vehicle.
Stay low and keep out of the flood light.
When you find gold the last thing you want to do is yell "Gold". Keep your head down and keep digging.
The Sportwagon is what I'm looking for, it's up to VW and the dealers as to weather I buy one. We will se what kind of games they play.
===========================================================
That disturbed and distorted idea is essentially what killed the nation, and now denigrates the memories of those people who died for it, people who would no longer recognize what it has become.
TICK TOCK
============================================================
You are already there, with more "in line" time coming at you fast. Stamping one's feet has never altered the outcome of anything. Maybe if you click your heels and say "Auntie Em"?
TICK TOCK
============================================================
Now that is truly funny! When you are through there you can listen to my three year old Granddaughter for a counter point
Think I'll go get some air.
No religions for me, I'm a freethinker, but I figured you would be one of the first down at the local VW dealer to test drive a TDI. My closest VW dealer is 200 miles away. Next year when Honda and Subaru introduce their diesel engines I will give them a whirl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought
Diesel will be just one of many options down the road. When the time comes to get a new vehicle I'll be looking at just about everything available.
I am curious to see how the diesel prices will go in the future. The EIA is still reporting that the refining cost for diesel is twice that of gasoline. That would suggest that diesel is going to continue to be more expensive than RUG by a good 30 to 40 cents.
And then, I keeping reading stories about how diesel demand is going to be high - see below. High demand means high prices.
"Distillates (jet fuel, kerosene, diesel and other gasoil) will remain the main growth drivers of world oil demand,...."
"With 48% of global product demand growth over the next five years concentrated in middle distillate fuels, generating sufficient product to meet demand will continue to be a challenge, according to the report."
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/07/study-finds-fue.html#more
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/07/iea-despite-som.html#more
http://bioage.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/01/mt- omr2.png
Been there done that. Bought solar power for my home in Lake Havasu, AZ about 1983. System quit after 3 or 4 years, dealer gone out of business, I was out $10,000. Now the systems are $50k with a lousy tax incentive. NO THANKS
Latest BUS nightmare.
Wife's aunt gets on Greyhound BUS in Tucson, AZ for trip to Temecula, CA Last Friday. Cousin waiting at the Greyhound bus stop from 6:00 PM till after 9:30 PM for her 87 year old mother. Calls Greyhound and cannot find anyone with a clue about the bus. They go home and wait. 2AM the sheriff pulls into their driveway with lights flashing. Your mother is in the Bus station in San Diego. All she had was her daughter's address. They drive the 75 miles to San Diego and find her sleeping on the floor of the ladies room. She is fine NO THANKS TO MASS TRANSIT. The bus broke down and she was put on a direct to San Diego bus.
You ride the stinking buses, I'll drive my SUV that smells like french fries if the EPA don't try to throw us all in jail for using a waste product to power our vehicles. That is if I can even buy a biodiesel burning SUV here in the land of the Free... :sick:
Utopian waste of our tax dollars is getting old and not doing much good. Cut off all public funding of mass transit. Let the systems support themselves. Why should I pay for you to ride the bus or trolley. You want to ride you pay...The people need to rise up and stop this waste. For those that want a cheap ride get a bicycle.
I read the article on gas hybrid buses in Long Beach. Some one posted here that CA was rid of all their diesel buses. I guess Long Beach did not get the word. As of 2007 they are still using mostly diesel. San Diego has converted to CNG which does not get nearly as good a mileage. So that is an added expense. The article claims that the hybrids are more economical to run. Yet LBT says different in their report. They also do not mention that the hybrid buses are at least twice as expensive. While Long Beach has horrible pollution. Most is due to ocean transport. I guess if the LB taxpayers are willing to pony up for overpriced buses that is their money.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy08osti/42226.pdf
The growth in demand for distillates is understandable. IT IS THE SUPERIOR fuel. How far would a 747 get on RUG? The increased demand for diesel will help those driving gas cars. It is as always the trash product from the refinery. The only way to get decent mileage with gas is to add a lot of expensive complexity in the form of a hybrid.
The car would probably work for a person doing a long one hour plus commute even with a price north of $30k. I'll let someone else do the math.
I wonder how well the carbon monocoque will do in our winters. It will also be interesting to see how the windshield wipers do when we get snow and ice.