"The bus broke down and she was put on a direct to San Diego bus." =========================================================== Sounds like my friends experience with her TDI fuel system failures
"That is if I can even buy a biodiesel burning SUV here in the land of the Free... " =========================================================== Maybe my brother-in-law will lease you his Shelby Mustang while you wait.
..."The only way to get decent mileage with gas is to add a lot of expensive complexity in the form of a hybrid. "...
The current state of the art Prius if you compare it against their Corolla (Toyota's flagship economy) car offers app 30% (hybrid advantage) I have read posts in passing that the oem tires wear very fast and unless you are careful to select another low rolling resistant tire, there is anywhere from a 2-4 mpg hit (4.2%- 8.5%) As a comparison my Civic's (almost the bottom rated 23/24) tires are @ 67,000 miles. While this is a judgement call, I will change the tires @ 70,000 miles. Prius owners can chime in as to their real world experiences. The Jetta TDI's tires are @ 108,000 miles. While this is a judgement call, I will change the tires @ between 125,000- 130,000 miles. Again this is a very low rated tire
So a more practical range would be closer to 25.8%-21.5% @ app a 10k premium. Funny how such a HUGE DEAL was made of the previous 246 dollar premium for a TDI !!??
"No religions for me, I'm a freethinker, but I figured you would be one of the first down at the local VW dealer to test drive a TDI. My closest VW dealer is 200 miles away. Next year when Honda and Subaru introduce their diesel engines I will give them a whirl.
Diesel will be just one of many options down the road. When the time comes to get a new vehicle I'll be looking at just about everything available."...
Glad to see you follow my lead! Being a free thinker led me to a diesel (now) 6 years ago. However at the time and even now, I don't conceive of it that way. So by the time you even consider a diesel or another alternative fuel product, it will be a decade down the road.
Really the whole debate (on this diesel topic thread) has been a case study in the almost complete and utter resistance to outright banning by up to 5 states to diesel which is a portal to alternative fuel: to moving any % of the vehicle population in that direction. Indeed the passenger diesel population has shrunk 33% from less than 3% to 2% of the population.
So if diesel has that virulent resistance, that will probably be duplicated across any of the future alternatives you think you will want to consider. Indeed, here are two examples: EV (plug in) cars (literally disappeared), Natural gas Civic's (2,000 last MY) literally with NO public infrastructure to speak of. Public agencies that use them literally will NOT fuel a private nat gas vehicle in emergency need. Want a third? How about E85? Want a fourth? 100% ethanol gets into using the gestopo powers of crushing the (southern) moonshiners; as you know gasser engines can be modified to burn pure ethanol, destilled in the hills. Diesel rounds it out for 5 examples.
So to point out the VERY VERY VERY obvious, it hard to use alternative fuels when there are no real alternative fuels (% vehicles) on the market.
I suspect years from now folks will still be debating whether D2's 20-40% better mpg is actually better mpg (?????) , and the regulatory agencies will dream up news ways to choke off the real differences rather than accentuate and make better the differences. So it seems as if the policy is to keep on the straight and narrow increased use of RUG to PUG. They just let the fringe stuff on the market to keep the masses hopeful.
Maybe my brother-in-law will lease you his Shelby Mustang while you wait
I would probably just park it in the garage also. Drive it once a month to keep the battery charged up. Not very practical in my book...
One of these days I will get away from my fruit orchards, tropical plants and garden. I want to travel around the USA I have not laid eyes on my farm in Minnesota for over 20 years. I planted 3000 assorted trees in 1979. I wonder if they are huge by now. My dream vehicle is a Sequoia or GL sized SUV with a small enough diesel engine to get 30 MPG. So my trip is on hold till that happens. Its that or drive the gas guzzler with stops every 300 miles to fill er up.
For that kind of use, I'd suggest looking at a Dodge Sprinter 2500. Plenty of space to make a small bedroom, and even the 3.0L V6 diesel should turn 30 on the highway if your right foot behaves.
I had a 2006 MB Cruiser RV. Mine had the 5 cylinder diesel. It was a great engine and transmission. 25 MPG was about tops for that vehicle. I thought we would go camping in it. We ended up staying in motels on the one 2 week trip we took. I sold it a year later. I don't know if the V6 would get as good mileage. Maybe in the short low roof model. I think they are great rigs though. UPS has 1000s of them. Nothing is close mileage wise. I wish MB would put that engine in the GL size SUV. I am sure I could get 30+ MPG with that combo.
... In Great Britain there is a dispensation from the fuel tax for private biodiesel use. This is to encourage the use, transportation, finding, making, of alternate fuels. Sounds like we could use an incentive program for the same and the use of small cars. Maybe they figure that they would have to arrest thirty percent of the population, with their D-2 @ 10.00 a gallon, with all the red and bio being used.
The same 50+ cents per gallon incentive offered the corporations for ethanol is in place for biodiesel. It is corporate welfare and does not include the little guy. All the Feds need to do is drop any road tax requirements on used cooking oil. Also the states need to do the same. It would not be a big percentage. It would keep the used oil out of the landfills. That should be enough reason to encourage the use. There is NO way that SVO is as harmful to the environment being used in a vehicle as fossil diesel or gas. Just the sweet aroma or french fries or Chinese take-out
Your numbers are a bit off. EPA rates the Corolla at 29 combined and the Prius at 46 combined. That is a 45% increase in mpg from a Corolla to a Prius.
The list price for a Corolla runs from $15,250 to $18,760. The Prius MSRP is $21,500 to $23,770. The premium is about $5k not $10k.
The EPA site says that if you drive 15K a year the Prius will cost you $1335 while the Corolla is $2122. That is a savings of $787 per year. So, over 10 years and 150,000 miles you will save money. This is all assuming gas prices stay where they are at for 10 years.
The premium for the Jetta diesel will be $2,000 over the RUG version. Annual fuel costs are $2113 for the diesel and $2565 for the RUG version, a savings of $452 a year. Over 10 years you will save $2,520, unless you finance the $2,000 premium. If you finance the $2,000 premium you will save a little less. The same would be true of the Prius, you would see a bit more in finance charges.
We can thus conclude that over a ten year period you will save a few thousand dollars in fuel costs by buying a Prius over a Corolla or a Jetta diesel over the RUG version. :shades:
And, since I suspect you may bring up the issue of how the EPA test does not reflect real world mpg numbers, you should also consider that a number of Prius owners are reporting mpg numbers well over 50 over at Toyota Prius MPG-Real World Numbers forum. The EPA test at least gives you the same conditions. Real world conditions will always be different for different people.
"The EIA said more U.S. diesel is going to Latin American to fuel power plants because of a shortage of natural gas in the region, and China has switched to diesel from coal to run some of its generating facilities in order to reduce smog ahead of the summer Olympics next month in Beijing."
This is one of those little tidbits of information that may help explain the high cost of diesel. I suspect Latin America is in trouble unless they can get more natural gas. Is this a long term use for diesel?
The EIA makes it sound as if after the Olympics, diesel demand in China will drop. We shall see.
The numbers are not mine. they are from the same site that you quoted that I quoted, i.e. that I cited. The 2004 model years were used. So if what you are saying is true, you are in effect still agreeing with my original post.
It also means I dodged a bullet by getting a Honda Civic, (over the Corolla you say gets more like 29 mpg) for it gets 38-42 mpg, or a min of 24% better than the Corolla. Also for that model year the premium for a Prius was 12,436 over the Civic. So indeed the math gives the nod to the Civic. The price difference was 99% of the price of a SECOND Civic. Even at todays fuel price of 4.53, that is 2745 gal of fuel or 104,320 miles of commuting.
The list price for a Corolla runs from $15,250 to $18,760. The Prius MSRP is $21,500 to $23,770. The premium is about $5k not $10k.
Maybe in ND, not in California. If you can get a Prius it will be North of $30k. Making the price difference well over $10k. And those with the new Corolla posting their mileage are getting 38 MPG combined. Making the mileage difference less than 20% in reality. You want a used Prius in San Diego. Mossy Toyota has 6 for sale today. How about $34,995 for a 2005 with 38k miles. A real bargain, Eh?
Neither. Just giving reference to available Prius for those that don't care about the advantages diesel offers. The smart money will be on the VW Sportwagon TDI soon to be for sale here.
As you can see the Toyota dealers are interested in getting green cars on the road. :P
Hopefully the VW dealers will not follow Toyota dealers down the Green Gouging path. One VW dealer in SF is advertising NO premium on the Jetta TDI. I have read that VWUSA is going to hold the line on their dealers. We shall see.
My self I have just about decided that I will buy either the ML320 CDI or the BMW X5 35D. Probably the Mercedes.The others are too small. I can live with 30 MPG on the highway. That would double my current mileage without sacrificing any comfort. In fact I would get individual climate control that that Sequoia lacks for some reason. Better electronics, NAV sat radio etc.
Oh but the dealer said: "The second is our commitment to our customers. At Mossy Toyota, we don't believe in gimmicks; just good cars and great people. " :lemon:
I agree that now is not the best time to buy a Prius, but I have a feeling the VW TDIs will also be going for a premium.
The numbers are jumping around a bit as people are panicking over the $4.10 a gallon gas. Trying to compare cost for different vehicles will be difficult.
And yes, the dealer here will let you have a Prius for MSRP when they have one in stock.
Indeed ALL segments will benefit from the 20-40% structural better fuel mpg. As fuel prices continue to climb, you can almost bet one of the major drivers will be epa/real world mpg results. How things will play out will be what folks decide to do with the vehicles already in the passenger vehicle fleet (6-12 year decision cycles) and against the 14-16 M new car sales per year. As folks probably know, 2008 model year is on pace for the LOWEST overall sales in recent history/record @ 14 M. (normal 16-17 M)
So for example, unless the oems want to see segments like SUV's die off, to me it has been at least a (generation) 30 year no brainer to offer some to the majority as turbo diesels. I for one would have bought far fewer vehicles if a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser turbo diesel available in Germany (of all places) getting 30 plus mpg were available here. It would seem to me they have (LONG since) come to the functional conclusion of the gasser options. So I for one would expect further changes.
Indeed given our 4.53 per gal (RUG), 27 mpg standards and defacto 22 mpg standards (real world fleet) per mile driven we are at parity with the European continent with prices up to 9.50 US per gal (128 oz)
($9.50 /50 mpg = $.19 cents per mile driven,
vs $4.53/27 to 22 mpg = $.17 cents/.206 cents per mile driven )
Ya heard it here first and a few years early: :shades: that when the 35 mpg standards are so called implemented (will in all likely hood be delayed) in 2012 with probable defacto 19% less 28 mpg, the price of fuel will be adjusted to be at par with the European continent. AKA rise from the current 4.53!!!!! :lemon:
So while it would seem and indeed European fuel costs more than US fuel, the numbers (per mile driven) tell a VASTLY different practical story. To put this in the vernacular, the BURN RATE is the controlling variable. AND you will never guess who controls the burn rate!? :lemon: No real secret why a 50 mpg diesel VW is such a PITA. 70 mpg is probably the equivalent of sedition. :lemon: :sick:
The Prius hybrid has proved that when significantly panic ed, they can boost the acquistion costs app 12,000 dollars, (over their flagship economy car Corolla) and marketed correctly, folks will actually want to pay more. It would be disengenuous to not note the signifcant buyer resistance. However over time, the overall increase in costs will be overlooked as they emphasize every increasing fuel prices. So 12k will be now be seen as a solution, and not so much as a price objection.
Ford just released their new powershift dual clutch transmission, heading on against the established Golf (Rabbit in the US) TDI DSG They are offered with mainstream 2 liter engines which are selling in large numbers.
Both 2 Liter engines offer comparable 136 and 140 HP . The two transmission, while similar in principle, differ from the inclusion of a sport mode for the DSG which holds gear longer and is designed for more engine brake.
tests reveal that the DSG is more performance oriented and allows the Golf to take the lead. The 250 lb weigh difference in favor of the golf also plays a role.
those transmissions are convincely much more efficient than their automatic counterparts, but still don't match the efficiency of manuals.
This tests contradict somehow the comparison test of the Focus C-max against the VW Touran with the same powertrain
... I see the new VW-TDi will not be using the urea after-treatment also. So what do they call their catalyst system, and more importantly did they get rid of EGR ???
Vw and supposedly Honda have both come up with a way to clean the NoX without urea. Only in the 4 cylinder engines. I do not know of any 6 cylinder diesel that operates without urea, that can pass the CARB emissions. So far MB is approved in all 50 states. Not sure if BMW has the green light. I have not idea about the EGR. It would be great to get rid of that worthless source of trouble.
Your numbers are a bit off. EPA rates the Corolla at 29 combined and the Prius at 46 combined. That is a 45% increase in mpg from a Corolla to a Prius.
The list price for a Corolla runs from $15,250 to $18,760. The Prius MSRP is $21,500 to $23,770. The premium is about $5k not $10k.
The EPA site says that if you drive 15K a year the Prius will cost you $1335 while the Corolla is $2122. That is a savings of $787 per year. So, over 10 years and 150,000 miles you will save money. This is all assuming gas prices stay where they are at for 10 years.
The premium for the Jetta diesel will be $2,000 over the RUG version. Annual fuel costs are $2113 for the diesel and $2565 for the RUG version, a savings of $452 a year. Over 10 years you will save $2,520, unless you finance the $2,000 premium. If you finance the $2,000 premium you will save a little less. The same would be true of the Prius, you would see a bit more in finance charges.
We can thus conclude that over a ten year period you will save a few thousand dollars in fuel costs by buying a Prius over a Corolla or a Jetta diesel over the RUG version
You are conveniently forgetting that at 8 years you have to replace the batteries in the Prius at a cost of $8,000. That adds up to $1,000 cost per year. So you actually lose money with the Prius. :shades:
houdini1 says, "You are conveniently forgetting that at 8 years you have to replace the batteries in the Prius at a cost of $8,000. That adds up to $1,000 cost per year."
Ar you saying that "tongue in cheek" or is that a serious argument?
Please go to this Forum for my reply, since this is not the correct location:
I did not start the debate here, I am merely replying to it. The numbers I mentioned above are the costs that I have seen. If you have other info please share it.
Plus I believe that comparing diesel to hybrid fuel economy is a valid topic for this forum.
Toyota warrants these batteries for 8 years so I assume that they would not be comfortable in guaranteeing them for longer than this. (green states 10 years because of gov decree).
The battery cost is certainly a cost and has to be considered just like the cost of any other fuel. In the example posed that I was replying to, no cost at all was included. Just trying to be fair and balanced.
Plus I believe that comparing diesel to hybrid fuel economy is a valid topic for this forum.
Not really. This is "Diesels in the News". The intent of the discussion is to discuss diesel vehicles and technology as they are presented to the press and public. Every diesel-vs-hybrid discussion that has ever been started in these forums has been closed due to uncontrollable fights. I will allow a little bit of rope, but when posts become too hybrid-centric (like they are getting now), I ask for them to stop. There is an entire Hybrid Vehicles Board for those vehicles. This discussion resides in the Diesels group and is intended for discussion of diesels.
Fair enough. But again I did not start this discussion. I was merely pointing out that a previous poster had left out the cost of hybrid batteries in their calculation of fuel costs and giving everyone a false impression. End of story.
"...the batteries in the Prius at a cost of $8,000." ========================================================== It's important to not conveniently overlook the cost of of regular maintenance not incurred by the Prius (a car I do not like) which is a savings. Also, it is unlikely that the average Prius will run out of batteries at eight years, or that the cost of replacement will be $8000.00 in constant dollars in 2014. It is also important to consider that gas prices in constant dollars will continue to rise during that time creating an even greater savings.
"France is nice this time of year." ======================================================== But full of diesel exhaust . And besides, Real Americans don't cut and run, they stay and fix things, even when it costs them :shades:. American History is full of crises created by the self absorbed (Ex: those who imagine that driving what they want is a right), and solved by those who work together - even when it costs them .
"France is nice this time of year." ======================================================== But full of diesel exhaust
You mean to tell me they don't use old "FRENCH FRY" grease to power their cars?
For those of US that are truly concerned about the waste of fossil fuel, we find our government on the side of the oil companies. Whether it is using more than is needed to operate an SUV or a bus with 3 people wandering the streets of So Ca spewing gas fumes. Even CNG fumes STINK my friend. When pouring from the exhaust pipe of a big Bus it is even worse.
I would love to use just half the fuel in my SUV. EPA & CARB says no way we want to keep our jobs that are coming from FUEL TAX dollars.
And the conspiracy theories rise from that like maggots from a garbage pail.
Of course, all of the responses to my original post avoid the problem of automobile dependency - which was pretty much all that could be expected here .
At least the entertainment value maintains :shades: .
"Since September 2004, the price of diesel fuel has been generally higher than the price of regular gasoline all year round for several reasons. "
"U.S. diesel fuel prices are more and more affected by competing international demand for refined distillates."
The report really did not add much new as compared to last year. I wish they would give a bit more detail on refineries switching to diesel or those that are staying put. If they could at least give a regional estimate it would help. If for example, California refineries are maxed out on diesel production folks there would know that diesel prices are not going to come down. If on the other hand, several NE refineries are expecting to increase diesel output by 5% we would know that prices could moderate or even drop in that region.
Several things to think about. As a percentage diesel is the best choice for motor fuel in CA. If you are interested in the VW Sportwagon TDI according to the EPA estimates the diesel version will use 28% less fuel. The price differential of gas and diesel in CA has not exceeded 10% giving a clear gain. At current pricing for gas, diesel would have to be $5.82 to just be a wash. When you factor in the superior driving qualities of the TDI vs the gas engine even that would not be a deterrent.
For the future. The VW TDI as it sits will run on any percentage of biodiesel. As fossil diesel becomes more expensive other forms of diesel become viable. That is NOT the case with gasoline. There is NO good substitute. A failed Energy policy has proven that Ethanol is not now nor has it ever been a good substitute. Even with biomass ethanol IF that ever comes to reality, the same issues remain. You cannot transport ethanol in pipelines that are not dedicated and specially built. And it gets on average about 25% worse mileage. So a VW Sportwagon gasser that would normally go 400 between fueling now only travels 300 miles. While the Sportwagon TDI will go at least 600 miles out on the road. That in itself worth the differential in purchase price.
So when a person needs a new car and he looks at alternative fuels in the future, the diesel is the only logical choice. I think VW will have a winner with the TDI.
Of course, all of the responses to my original post avoid the problem of automobile dependency - which was pretty much all that could be expected here
My friend I don't want you to think I am ignoring your posts. I think you have it backward. It is the INDEPENDENCE offered by the automobile that seems to annoy you. A person can jump in his car and go where he likes when he likes. Not being tied to a government schedule is a big part of that INDEPENDENCE that we Americans love. What many of US do not like is the fact that mass transit systems are free loading off of the individual automobile driver. The freeloading bus riders are stealing gas tax money to subsidized the failed attempt at jamming US all into their mold.
You should be celebrating this year in our History. 100 years ago was the first time a family set out to travel across this wonderful land in an automobile. It is a wonderful story that is repeated millions of times by families across our Nation. I really do not have a lot of patience with those that would like to take that pleasure from the American family.
NOW 100 years later we are getting a NEW opportunity to drive the most efficient fueled vehicles that meet all the emissions requirements in the USA. That is cause to celebrate another Independence day for the American driver. Thank you Volkswagen & Mercedes Benz for persevering the obstacles put in the way of diesel transportation for the individual. Now it is time for the celebration.
So when a person needs a new car and he looks at alternative fuels in the future, the diesel is the only logical choice.
I think that is the key.
Assuming that folks are not going to be able get past having personal transport in the next 10 years, diesel engines can handle more fuel types than gasoline. That's a fact that no amount of nay saying or number-crunching can alter.
While the cost of diesel is being pushed by demand, the reduced cost of creating alternative fuels that can be used in a diesel (compared to gas) will become more critical.
FWIW, Subaru's next gen Outback with a longer wheel-base than current and a diesel engine looks like a winner to me. 2010 should be the launch year and it will feature more space than the Jetta Sportwagon and Subaru reliability.
To me the Outback would have a slight edge because of the additional ground clearance. Makes it easier to get in and out of. Also when I make trips to the desert I like hitting the back roads off the beaten path. Diesel is good due to range and it is safer to haul in extra containers. Subaru has a good AWD reputation as well.
I have had the VW Jetta TDI in the Mohave Desert and on those dirt paths aka roads.It has also been off road in the Monument Valley areas. While I have done it and probably will continue to do it, I would not recommend it as the ground clearance is indeed low. The Jetta is indeed a ROAD car.
Having lived with a diesel for app 5 years/108,000 miles, I think what would get lost is the diesel (for how I drive it) drives FAR better than a like model gasser.
Your numbers are a bit off. EPA rates the Corolla at 29 combined and the Prius at 46 combined. That is a 45% increase in mpg from a Corolla to a Prius.
Top Gear(U.K. TV show) tested a Prius versus a BMW 3 series on their test track two weeks ago. The idea was simple - the Prius would be driven as fast as they could reasonably and safely get it around the track(top speeds of about 80mph - not insane, mind you) and the 3 would merely go along and keep up.
Prius: 11mpg 3 series: 18mpg.
How you drive it is hugely important, and to get the EPA numbers you have to drive it like a 90 year old man.(unfortunately, all too many drivers DO drive like this - I pass them all the time on the freeway) Hint: 55.01 mph isn't acceptable when the traffic is going 70.
I would ask what the speed limit is on that freeway. If I drive at the highest allowable speed depends on several factors like weather, congestion, visibility, etc.
Even in Germany, on the Autobahn, on a stretch that is NOT speed limited, drivers do not exceed 80 KPH or 50 MPH when it is raining.
To me not acceptable is when at night and in the rain everybody is doing the speed limit. Not very wise or advisable.
If there are three lanes, 55 MPH is perfectly acceptable in the right lane only, IMO.
This might not be the correct response to what you REALLY mean, but if the 03 TDI Jetta did 50 mph on the highway my SWAG would be 62-67 mpg. Much much much more dangerous would be fighting road hynosis @ that speed. I got 59 mpg on a highway trip @ 75 mph with bursts to 80 mph, during a three state (interstate) highway patrol 5 car wolf pack crack down during Sept of 07. When the vehicle was new, (aka needed 50,000 more miles to get better fuel mileage) I did 90 mph in a driving rain and headwind for 6/8 hours up and over the grapvine and it yield 50 mpg fueling in Santa Monica, CA.
I have always had a sneaking suspicion that such poor mpg numbers would be the case when driving a hybrid in this manner. This is the first time anyone, to my knowledge, has actually posted the mileage numbers for these circumstances. Very eye opening.
I have posted that at times, one has to be VERY focused on what are the REAL requirements and the oem/model's adaptability to what YOU need/want it for. It is probably more than evident the Prius' strength's do not lie in in the tests conducted. After all according to Edmunds.com the Prius is ... "The gas engine produces 76 horsepower and 82 pound-feet of torque"..., vs say the 03 TDI @ 90 hp and 155# ft of torque. If you want to compare it to the 2009 TDI 146 hp/236# ft or 65% MORE torque. So if you do not operate a signicant portion of the time in the hybrids' electric motor sweet spot, my gosh this is a 1.5 L motor!! No real magic here!!!!??? It kind of makes you wonder what a proper turbo would add to a Prius!?
I would ask what the speed limit is on that freeway. If I drive at the highest allowable speed depends on several factors like weather, congestion, visibility, etc.
Limit: 65mph, 80 degrees, perfectly sunny and dry weather. Creeping along in the middle lane of a 5 lane wide freeway. I see it all the time here in Los Angeles. Drive like the rest of us instead of playing the video-game maximize your MPG with the dash computers and the Prius gets about exactly the same as a TDI driven like a normal yahoo.
There's a reason TDIs have taken over in Europe. You need a much larger displacement engine to match their city performance(but nowhere close to the same mpg) and much taller gearing to equal their highway MPG(but no power without down shifting). Catch-22 unless you have a 6-7 speed manual attached to a V6 or supercharged/turbocharged I-4 engine.(doesn't exist any more - the old Mercedes 1.8L Kompressor models were as close as it got)
By comparison, a TDI - go test drive the new Passat TDI. Every VW dealer has a demo model to test drive. ~40-45mpg combined and it goes really fast. Not tire smoking fast, but it leaves a Prius standing in the dust and in traffic it moves like it has a V6 under the hood(same torque as one)
Comments
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Sounds like my friends experience with her TDI fuel system failures
"That is if I can even buy a biodiesel burning SUV here in the land of the Free... "
===========================================================
Maybe my brother-in-law will lease you his Shelby Mustang while you wait.
The current state of the art Prius if you compare it against their Corolla (Toyota's flagship economy) car offers app 30% (hybrid advantage) I have read posts in passing that the oem tires wear very fast and unless you are careful to select another low rolling resistant tire, there is anywhere from a 2-4 mpg hit (4.2%- 8.5%)
As a comparison my Civic's (almost the bottom rated 23/24) tires are @ 67,000 miles. While this is a judgement call, I will change the tires @ 70,000 miles. Prius owners can chime in as to their real world experiences. The Jetta TDI's tires are @ 108,000 miles. While this is a judgement call, I will change the tires @ between 125,000- 130,000 miles. Again this is a very low rated tire
So a more practical range would be closer to 25.8%-21.5% @ app a 10k premium. Funny how such a HUGE DEAL was made of the previous 246 dollar premium for a TDI !!??
link title
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought
Diesel will be just one of many options down the road. When the time comes to get a new vehicle I'll be looking at just about everything available."...
Glad to see you follow my lead! Being a free thinker led me to a diesel (now) 6 years ago. However at the time and even now, I don't conceive of it that way. So by the time you even consider a diesel or another alternative fuel product, it will be a decade down the road.
Really the whole debate (on this diesel topic thread) has been a case study in the almost complete and utter resistance to outright banning by up to 5 states to diesel which is a portal to alternative fuel: to moving any % of the vehicle population in that direction. Indeed the passenger diesel population has shrunk 33% from less than 3% to 2% of the population.
So if diesel has that virulent resistance, that will probably be duplicated across any of the future alternatives you think you will want to consider. Indeed, here are two examples: EV (plug in) cars (literally disappeared), Natural gas Civic's (2,000 last MY) literally with NO public infrastructure to speak of. Public agencies that use them literally will NOT fuel a private nat gas vehicle in emergency need. Want a third? How about E85? Want a fourth? 100% ethanol gets into using the gestopo powers of crushing the (southern) moonshiners; as you know gasser engines can be modified to burn pure ethanol, destilled in the hills. Diesel rounds it out for 5 examples.
So to point out the VERY VERY VERY obvious, it hard to use alternative fuels when there are no real alternative fuels (% vehicles) on the market.
I suspect years from now folks will still be debating whether D2's 20-40% better mpg is actually better mpg (?????) , and the regulatory agencies will dream up news ways to choke off the real differences rather than accentuate and make better the differences.
So it seems as if the policy is to keep on the straight and narrow increased use of RUG to PUG. They just let the fringe stuff on the market to keep the masses hopeful.
I would probably just park it in the garage also. Drive it once a month to keep the battery charged up. Not very practical in my book...
One of these days I will get away from my fruit orchards, tropical plants and garden. I want to travel around the USA I have not laid eyes on my farm in Minnesota for over 20 years. I planted 3000 assorted trees in 1979. I wonder if they are huge by now. My dream vehicle is a Sequoia or GL sized SUV with a small enough diesel engine to get 30 MPG. So my trip is on hold till that happens. Its that or drive the gas guzzler with stops every 300 miles to fill er up.
kcram - Pickups Host
The list price for a Corolla runs from $15,250 to $18,760. The Prius MSRP is $21,500 to $23,770. The premium is about $5k not $10k.
The EPA site says that if you drive 15K a year the Prius will cost you $1335 while the Corolla is $2122. That is a savings of $787 per year. So, over 10 years and 150,000 miles you will save money. This is all assuming gas prices stay where they are at for 10 years.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/18/volkswagen-prices-jetta-tdi-from-21-990/
The premium for the Jetta diesel will be $2,000 over the RUG version. Annual fuel costs are $2113 for the diesel and $2565 for the RUG version, a savings of $452 a year. Over 10 years you will save $2,520, unless you finance the $2,000 premium. If you finance the $2,000 premium you will save a little less. The same would be true of the Prius, you would see a bit more in finance charges.
We can thus conclude that over a ten year period you will save a few thousand dollars in fuel costs by buying a Prius over a Corolla or a Jetta diesel over the RUG version. :shades:
And, since I suspect you may bring up the issue of how the EPA test does not reflect real world mpg numbers, you should also consider that a number of Prius owners are reporting mpg numbers well over 50 over at Toyota Prius MPG-Real World Numbers forum. The EPA test at least gives you the same conditions. Real world conditions will always be different for different people.
http://www.forbes.com/reuters/feeds/reuters/2008/07/03/2008-07-03T184028Z_01_N02- 435397_RTRIDST_0_USA-OIL-EXPORTS-ANALYSIS.html
This is one of those little tidbits of information that may help explain the high cost of diesel. I suspect Latin America is in trouble unless they can get more natural gas. Is this a long term use for diesel?
The EIA makes it sound as if after the Olympics, diesel demand in China will drop. We shall see.
It also means I dodged a bullet by getting a Honda Civic, (over the Corolla you say gets more like 29 mpg) for it gets 38-42 mpg, or a min of 24% better than the Corolla. Also for that model year the premium for a Prius was 12,436 over the Civic. So indeed the math gives the nod to the Civic. The price difference was 99% of the price of a SECOND Civic. Even at todays fuel price of 4.53, that is 2745 gal of fuel or 104,320 miles of commuting.
Maybe in ND, not in California. If you can get a Prius it will be North of $30k. Making the price difference well over $10k. And those with the new Corolla posting their mileage are getting 38 MPG combined. Making the mileage difference less than 20% in reality. You want a used Prius in San Diego. Mossy Toyota has 6 for sale today. How about $34,995 for a 2005 with 38k miles. A real bargain, Eh?
http://www.mossytoyota.com/used-inventory/index.htm?reset=InventoryListing&invTy- - pe=used&SBmake=Toyota&SBmodel=Prius
As you can see the Toyota dealers are interested in getting green cars on the road. :P
Hopefully the VW dealers will not follow Toyota dealers down the Green Gouging path. One VW dealer in SF is advertising NO premium on the Jetta TDI. I have read that VWUSA is going to hold the line on their dealers. We shall see.
My self I have just about decided that I will buy either the ML320 CDI or the BMW X5 35D. Probably the Mercedes.The others are too small. I can live with 30 MPG on the highway. That would double my current mileage without sacrificing any comfort. In fact I would get individual climate control that that Sequoia lacks for some reason. Better electronics, NAV sat radio etc.
I agree that now is not the best time to buy a Prius, but I have a feeling the VW TDIs will also be going for a premium.
The numbers are jumping around a bit as people are panicking over the $4.10 a gallon gas. Trying to compare cost for different vehicles will be difficult.
And yes, the dealer here will let you have a Prius for MSRP when they have one in stock.
So for example, unless the oems want to see segments like SUV's die off, to me it has been at least a (generation) 30 year no brainer to offer some to the majority as turbo diesels. I for one would have bought far fewer vehicles if a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser turbo diesel available in Germany (of all places) getting 30 plus mpg were available here. It would seem to me they have (LONG since) come to the functional conclusion of the gasser options. So I for one would expect further changes.
Indeed given our 4.53 per gal (RUG), 27 mpg standards and defacto 22 mpg standards (real world fleet) per mile driven we are at parity with the European continent with prices up to 9.50 US per gal (128 oz)
($9.50 /50 mpg = $.19 cents per mile driven,
vs $4.53/27 to 22 mpg = $.17 cents/.206 cents per mile driven )
Ya heard it here first and a few years early: :shades: that when the 35 mpg standards are so called implemented (will in all likely hood be delayed) in 2012 with probable defacto 19% less 28 mpg, the price of fuel will be adjusted to be at par with the European continent. AKA rise from the current 4.53!!!!! :lemon:
So while it would seem and indeed European fuel costs more than US fuel, the numbers (per mile driven) tell a VASTLY different practical story. To put this in the vernacular, the BURN RATE is the controlling variable. AND you will never guess who controls the burn rate!? :lemon: No real secret why a 50 mpg diesel VW is such a PITA. 70 mpg is probably the equivalent of sedition. :lemon: :sick:
The Prius hybrid has proved that when significantly panic ed, they can boost the acquistion costs app 12,000 dollars, (over their flagship economy car Corolla) and marketed correctly, folks will actually want to pay more. It would be disengenuous to not note the signifcant buyer resistance. However over time, the overall increase in costs will be overlooked as they emphasize every increasing fuel prices. So 12k will be now be seen as a solution, and not so much as a price objection.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
This is of course an apples to oranges comparison. (Civic does not have US TDI models, my swag would be 51-55 mpg)
Like model comparisons on the higher side are 29 mpg for the VW's 2.0 / 1.8T, So the %'s are 42% RUG @ $4.53 / 42% PUG@ $4.59 / D2 @ $4.93.
They are offered with mainstream 2 liter engines which are selling in large numbers.
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/ford-focus-powershift_vw-golf-dsg_714109.html
Both 2 Liter engines offer comparable 136 and 140 HP . The two transmission, while similar in principle, differ from the inclusion of a sport mode for the DSG which holds gear longer and is designed for more engine brake.
tests reveal that the DSG is more performance oriented and allows the Golf to take the lead. The 250 lb weigh difference in favor of the golf also plays a role.
those transmissions are convincely much more efficient than their automatic counterparts, but still don't match the efficiency of manuals.
This tests contradict somehow the comparison test of the Focus C-max against the VW Touran with the same powertrain
http://www.argusauto.com/actualite-automobile/comparatifs-auto/Ford-C-Max-2.0-TD- Ci-Powershift-Titanium-face-au-Volkswagen-Touran-2.0-TDI-DSG-Sportline-/index.cf- m?action=2&lie=1&IDRub=3&IDArt=142640&motCle=Tous%20les%20comparatifs
Where the ford powershift allows for the same fuel consumption than the manual, whereas the DSG requires 0.5 Liter/100 km more
We can say anyway that those transmissions are extremely promising and bring a combination of comfort and performance that is impressive.
I hope that both engines will be available in the US soon, but I am not sure about the ford engine (used by Volvo and PSA Peugeot Citroen too).
The list price for a Corolla runs from $15,250 to $18,760. The Prius MSRP is $21,500 to $23,770. The premium is about $5k not $10k.
The EPA site says that if you drive 15K a year the Prius will cost you $1335 while the Corolla is $2122. That is a savings of $787 per year. So, over 10 years and 150,000 miles you will save money. This is all assuming gas prices stay where they are at for 10 years.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/18/volkswagen-prices-jetta-tdi-from-21-990/
The premium for the Jetta diesel will be $2,000 over the RUG version. Annual fuel costs are $2113 for the diesel and $2565 for the RUG version, a savings of $452 a year. Over 10 years you will save $2,520, unless you finance the $2,000 premium. If you finance the $2,000 premium you will save a little less. The same would be true of the Prius, you would see a bit more in finance charges.
We can thus conclude that over a ten year period you will save a few thousand dollars in fuel costs by buying a Prius over a Corolla or a Jetta diesel over the RUG version
You are conveniently forgetting that at 8 years you have to replace the batteries in the Prius at a cost of $8,000. That adds up to $1,000 cost per year. So you actually lose money with the Prius. :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Ar you saying that "tongue in cheek" or is that a serious argument?
Please go to this Forum for my reply, since this is not the correct location:
Hybrid battery debate
Plus I believe that comparing diesel to hybrid fuel economy is a valid topic for this forum.
Toyota warrants these batteries for 8 years so I assume that they would not be comfortable in guaranteeing them for longer than this. (green states 10 years because of gov decree).
The battery cost is certainly a cost and has to be considered just like the cost of any other fuel. In the example posed that I was replying to, no cost at all was included. Just trying to be fair and balanced.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The Hosts have never agreed................;)
Not really. This is "Diesels in the News". The intent of the discussion is to discuss diesel vehicles and technology as they are presented to the press and public. Every diesel-vs-hybrid discussion that has ever been started in these forums has been closed due to uncontrollable fights. I will allow a little bit of rope, but when posts become too hybrid-centric (like they are getting now), I ask for them to stop. There is an entire Hybrid Vehicles Board for those vehicles. This discussion resides in the Diesels group and is intended for discussion of diesels.
kcram - Pickups Host
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
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It's important to not conveniently overlook the cost of of regular maintenance not incurred by the Prius (a car I do not like) which is a savings. Also, it is unlikely that the average Prius will run out of batteries at eight years, or that the cost of replacement will be $8000.00 in constant dollars in 2014. It is also important to consider that gas prices in constant dollars will continue to rise during that time creating an even greater savings.
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But full of diesel exhaust
TICK TOCK
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But full of diesel exhaust
You mean to tell me they don't use old "FRENCH FRY" grease to power their cars?
For those of US that are truly concerned about the waste of fossil fuel, we find our government on the side of the oil companies. Whether it is using more than is needed to operate an SUV or a bus with 3 people wandering the streets of So Ca spewing gas fumes. Even CNG fumes STINK my friend. When pouring from the exhaust pipe of a big Bus it is even worse.
I would love to use just half the fuel in my SUV. EPA & CARB says no way we want to keep our jobs that are coming from FUEL TAX dollars.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
And the conspiracy theories rise from that like maggots from a garbage pail.
Of course, all of the responses to my original post avoid the problem of automobile dependency - which was pretty much all that could be expected here
At least the entertainment value maintains :shades: .
The EIA is also reporting that diesel is up.
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
IT'S HERE, IT'S HERE!!!! :shades:
Diesel Fuel Prices - What Consumers Should Know
http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/diesel/index.html
"Since September 2004, the price of diesel fuel has been generally higher than the price of regular gasoline all year round for several reasons. "
"U.S. diesel fuel prices are more and more affected by competing international demand for refined distillates."
The report really did not add much new as compared to last year. I wish they would give a bit more detail on refineries switching to diesel or those that are staying put. If they could at least give a regional estimate it would help. If for example, California refineries are maxed out on diesel production folks there would know that diesel prices are not going to come down. If on the other hand, several NE refineries are expecting to increase diesel output by 5% we would know that prices could moderate or even drop in that region.
For the future. The VW TDI as it sits will run on any percentage of biodiesel. As fossil diesel becomes more expensive other forms of diesel become viable. That is NOT the case with gasoline. There is NO good substitute. A failed Energy policy has proven that Ethanol is not now nor has it ever been a good substitute. Even with biomass ethanol IF that ever comes to reality, the same issues remain. You cannot transport ethanol in pipelines that are not dedicated and specially built. And it gets on average about 25% worse mileage. So a VW Sportwagon gasser that would normally go 400 between fueling now only travels 300 miles. While the Sportwagon TDI will go at least 600 miles out on the road. That in itself worth the differential in purchase price.
So when a person needs a new car and he looks at alternative fuels in the future, the diesel is the only logical choice. I think VW will have a winner with the TDI.
My friend I don't want you to think I am ignoring your posts. I think you have it backward. It is the INDEPENDENCE offered by the automobile that seems to annoy you. A person can jump in his car and go where he likes when he likes. Not being tied to a government schedule is a big part of that INDEPENDENCE that we Americans love. What many of US do not like is the fact that mass transit systems are free loading off of the individual automobile driver. The freeloading bus riders are stealing gas tax money to subsidized the failed attempt at jamming US all into their mold.
You should be celebrating this year in our History. 100 years ago was the first time a family set out to travel across this wonderful land in an automobile. It is a wonderful story that is repeated millions of times by families across our Nation. I really do not have a lot of patience with those that would like to take that pleasure from the American family.
NOW 100 years later we are getting a NEW opportunity to drive the most efficient fueled vehicles that meet all the emissions requirements in the USA. That is cause to celebrate another Independence day for the American driver. Thank you Volkswagen & Mercedes Benz for persevering the obstacles put in the way of diesel transportation for the individual. Now it is time for the celebration.
I think that is the key.
Assuming that folks are not going to be able get past having personal transport in the next 10 years, diesel engines can handle more fuel types than gasoline. That's a fact that no amount of nay saying or number-crunching can alter.
While the cost of diesel is being pushed by demand, the reduced cost of creating alternative fuels that can be used in a diesel (compared to gas) will become more critical.
FWIW, Subaru's next gen Outback with a longer wheel-base than current and a diesel engine looks like a winner to me. 2010 should be the launch year and it will feature more space than the Jetta Sportwagon and Subaru reliability.
Top Gear(U.K. TV show) tested a Prius versus a BMW 3 series on their test track two weeks ago. The idea was simple - the Prius would be driven as fast as they could reasonably and safely get it around the track(top speeds of about 80mph - not insane, mind you) and the 3 would merely go along and keep up.
Prius: 11mpg
3 series: 18mpg.
How you drive it is hugely important, and to get the EPA numbers you have to drive it like a 90 year old man.(unfortunately, all too many drivers DO drive like this - I pass them all the time on the freeway) Hint: 55.01 mph isn't acceptable when the traffic is going 70.
I am sure the Top Gear comparo does not get too much air time among the Prius faithful here in the US markets
My swag for a 03 VW TDI as vehicle #3 would be 44 mpg. (worst)
Even in Germany, on the Autobahn, on a stretch that is NOT speed limited, drivers do not exceed 80 KPH or 50 MPH when it is raining.
To me not acceptable is when at night and in the rain everybody is doing the speed limit. Not very wise or advisable.
If there are three lanes, 55 MPH is perfectly acceptable in the right lane only, IMO.
You do realize that 80 KPH is only about 49 MPH. Even if you meant 80 MPH that seems extremely slow for the autobahn.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I have posted that at times, one has to be VERY focused on what are the REAL requirements and the oem/model's adaptability to what YOU need/want it for. It is probably more than evident the Prius' strength's do not lie in in the tests conducted. After all according to Edmunds.com the Prius is ... "The gas engine produces 76 horsepower and 82 pound-feet of torque"..., vs say the 03 TDI @ 90 hp and 155# ft of torque. If you want to compare it to the 2009 TDI 146 hp/236# ft or 65% MORE torque. So if you do not operate a signicant portion of the time in the hybrids' electric motor sweet spot, my gosh this is a 1.5 L motor!! No real magic here!!!!??? It kind of makes you wonder what a proper turbo would add to a Prius!?
I would ask what the speed limit is on that freeway. If I drive at the highest allowable speed depends on several factors like weather, congestion, visibility, etc.
Limit: 65mph, 80 degrees, perfectly sunny and dry weather. Creeping along in the middle lane of a 5 lane wide freeway. I see it all the time here in Los Angeles. Drive like the rest of us instead of playing the video-game maximize your MPG with the dash computers and the Prius gets about exactly the same as a TDI driven like a normal yahoo.
There's a reason TDIs have taken over in Europe. You need a much larger displacement engine to match their city performance(but nowhere close to the same mpg) and much taller gearing to equal their highway MPG(but no power without down shifting). Catch-22 unless you have a 6-7 speed manual attached to a V6 or supercharged/turbocharged I-4 engine.(doesn't exist any more - the old Mercedes 1.8L Kompressor models were as close as it got)
By comparison, a TDI - go test drive the new Passat TDI. Every VW dealer has a demo model to test drive. ~40-45mpg combined and it goes really fast. Not tire smoking fast, but it leaves a Prius standing in the dust and in traffic it moves like it has a V6 under the hood(same torque as one)
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4235586.html