Initially, new Diesel cars demand will be great to satisfy fans but as more new diesel cars in the market price will eventually drop. However general public will see it differently, as Diesel fuel prices will continue to stay strong and hard to justify to purchase a brand new Diesel vehicle. IMO, natural gas vehicle will likely to sell better than Diesel, folks at Oklahoma and Utah only pay less $1.00 per gallon for CNG. :surprise:
Well in a " free market" it has taken 30 years for the minority position SUV's to reach 12% of the population!?
Diesel SUV's getting 30-35 mpg will literally revolutionize these segments.
Diesel fuel is literally available ANYWHERE, albeit @ fewer fuel stations. Diesel passenger cars have been MICRO regulated, so the markets have been not as "free".
Nat gas has NO infrastructure to speak of. Home fuel adapters I think can be rented/bought for 1000 plus installation. I think the regulatory agencies are conflicted about letting taxpayers use them. In the case of regulatory agencies using them, they usually have a staging refueling yard and they do NOT pay TAXES.
ruking1 says, "Diesel SUV's getting 30-35 mpg will literally revolutionize these segments."
Does anyone you know about have diesel SUVs on the way for the USA market? Other than MB?
As I have said before, and this still stands:
For diesel vehicles to gain wide popularity in the USA, one thing that FOR SURE must happen is that there must be a wide variety of automakers who are offering multiple vehicle types with multiple configurations - in all 50 states. Not merely Mercedes (too pricey for wide adoption) and VW (regardless of the reality, they have a reliability problem in public perception.)
Honda announcing the diesel Acura for the USA and the HOPE that they will offer a diesel version of the Accord is a good start.
Hopefully 'Yota and Nissan and others will follow suit with USA diesels.
It has taken some time, but indeed you now seem to agree with the position I have expressed all along. So EVEN if it takes the trajectory of SUV growth, currently @ 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet; (considered by some to have had the growth rate of rodents in NYC) it will take 30 years.
I must have caught the local VW dealer at a lull time, and they had a VWA owned DSG Jetta TDI sedan just waiting for a test drive. It was a good test ride. We didn't get to the prices, but my impression was they are asking over MSRP. There is no stock on the lots, and the first units are scheduled for delivery app Aug/Sep. They have deposits on them. If I had wanted to get on the list, delivery would have been after Aug/Sep, or play the check all the dealers inventory in the Aug/Sep time frame.
The last nine years of my working life I spent as the owner of a truck maintenance shop with about a 50/50 split between heavy trucks and vans and small buses ran by hotels, car rental and transport companies around the MSP airport. As the only point of heavy trucks is to note that engine life sometimes gets confused between fuel and weight? A 600 # Blue-tech at 200 + hp and 2 L probably will not have the life of a 14 L Cummins at 4500# and 600 hp. That said back to gassers { i"m waiting for a Subaru Outback Diesel for my next car }. The business of moving people to and from airports and the expedited fright business are probably the worst duty cycle for any vehicle and add in our extremes of weather only to add to the ware and tare. I still have my work order computer list and could show all of this to anyone who wants to see. First brand brake out by number of vans maintained, Ford 140, Chev 40 and dodge 2. Fri st Chev's, we had a company that ran the midsized van with 4.3 L and auto trans they did not even think of selling, thats right SELLING these plane white windowless vans until they had 4000000 miles on them and usually got between 2500 and 3000 dollars for them. Oh by the way we never replaced a engine or transmission. Another brought in three full size G vans with 5.7 L and auto transmission with 3000000 miles on them for their first tune up? Plug gaps you could walk through and they still ran fine for modern computers. The numbers kind of tell you who the real stars wher though, Fords a few E150"s and E250"s but the bulk E350 & 450"s with everything from a 300 six { sold at 627000 miles, running but in need of valve job } 351/5.7 L , 460"s , 7.4 L , 5.4 and 6.8L"s Of the millions of miles total on these trucks enduring a horrible duty cycle { most were started at 4:00 AM and shut off at 2:00 AM } but perhaps the worst group of drivers that could be found and the reliability was incredible. In nine years we replaced 1 Chev and 1 Ford transmission and one Chevy and 3 Ford engines, the Engines where one 4.3 Lone Chevy 5.7 L one Ford/ IH 7.4 Diesel { twice as the tech dropped a bolt in the intake and forgot to tell anyone } and 3 6.8 L Fords one that had a defect in block casting and the other two because the professional driver forgot to check or add oil. One 94 Ford at the Marriott is still on it's feet with only 400000 miles but 15000 hours on it. The point of all this is that with even the worst drivers and jobs today's larger gas engines can do wonders with nothing but good maintenance.
In keeping with your apples to apples comparisons, it would be interesting how those very same vehicles would all perform with diesels.
As you are probably aware there are HUGE differences between the passenger cars we are referring and the heavy duty truck segment you seem to have built 9 years of your career with. If I got 4,000,000 miles with my Honda Civic, trust me, I would be tickled pink.
4 million miles must be a typo. It would take over 15 years to put that kind of mileage on if you averaged 30 mph 24 hours a day. That is 720 miles every day for 15 years.
Does anyone you know about have diesel SUVs on the way for the USA market? Other than MB?
The BMW X5 35D is due in all 50 states this fall. The Tiguan TDI is due first of the year. The Subaru Outback is supposed to be a 2010 model. The X5 and ML320 CDI are the two diesels that will get my attention this fall. If I like either one I will put the Sequoia on the market. Should be easy to sell as it is the best of the best that Toyota ever built. In a 200 mile radius there is only one like mine for sale. They are asking more than I paid new with more miles than mine has on it. Gas could be $6 and there will be a market for the good SUVs. I was a bit surprised that only one was for sale.
I talked to a driver for the local shuttle service. They get about 400k miles on the Chevy vans and maybe 250k on the Fords. He preferred driving the Chevy vans. 4 million miles would be some kind of world record. Here is the diesel Sprinter with 900,000 km and still going strong. Not sure many gassers can claim that.
"..new diesel cars are having a difficult time to convince US customers."
"What state would that be in? People are lining up and putting deposits on the new VW TDI Jetta and Sportwagon due into CA very soon. "
You are incorrectly extrapolating the initial reaction to a new car introduction, a few thousand people wanting to buy a TDI Jetta, with the overall buying habits of consumers. The original statement from tomjava was correct. Overall U.S. consumes are not on the diesel band wagon. There are many cars where people put deposits down. Just about anything that gets good fuel economy is hot. Many of these cars have long waiting lists.
I do find it ironic that you bought a gasser when there are a lot of good diesel pickups out there. Apparently having a diesel engine wasn't high enough on the list to get you to purchase one. Now if you, one of the more vigorous supporters of diesel found reasons not to buy one, why do you thing the average consumer would buy one? You knew all the advantages of the diesel power plant and yet you still bought a gasser. :confuse:
Anyway, Here is a link to an initial drive on the MB Bluetec people might find interesting.
I found it interesting that distillate demand dropped almost 4% in the first 4 months of 2008, yet diesel prices soared. Apparently more diesel/distillate is being exported!!! An interesting comment was: "The world market is perhaps beginning to value distillate more highly, relative to gasoline, because of its greater energy content. "
That really is not a good sign for diesel or distillate users. Prices look to stay rather robust.
I do find it ironic that you bought a gasser when there are a lot of good diesel pickups out there.
I have a cheapo 99 Ford Ranger that handles my PU needs. I had just sold a 2005 GMC Hybrid PU that I did not want to even get dirty using it. So for $4000 I have a cheap truck that I can throw stuff in without the worry of denting it or scratching the paint. Besides, I wanted a diesel SUV for trips. I did test drive a used GL320 CDI that our local MB dealer was selling. Two things caused me to not buy it. First they were asking $12,000 over what it sold for new. And I did not like the way the 7 speed transmission would down shift each time I let off the accelerator. The salesman had no explanation as to why and I kept looking. Quite by accident I test drove a Sequoia and liked it. When a loaded 4X4 was offered at $10k UNDER MSRP I decided it was a safe interim vehicle until I find the diesel SUV that I really like. Now waiting on the X5 35D to arrive. The X5 handles better than most cars. It should be capable of 30 MPG on the highway. That would be better than 16-17 MPG that the Sequoia gets. At least until diesel is twice the price of gas. I don't think that will happen.
Until there are more diesel offerings in the most popular (- my editorial .02cents) models, as per Larsb's (conversion) view, it is really a stretch to say there are a lot of good diesel pick ups out there. As milestones, good diesel pick ups WOULD BE: Chevy 150 series, Silverado, (probably variants too numerous to include) Ford F150, Dodge 1500, Toyota Tacoma, Tundra, etc, etc,. (so I am not being vague)
The key for me also has been "LIKE" models. There was/is/continues to be significant bru ha ha JUST for the diesel premium; let alone an upgrade path. In the case of the 03 VW Jetta over 1.8T, $246.
On resale values, hindsight shows an almost 6,000 (DIESEL) advantage over the 1.8T ENGINE/drive train. (almost everything else about the cars are the same.)
So by any stretch, spending $ 246. to get $6,000. over 5/6 years (24.39 to 1) ain't bad?! (406% per YEAR!!??)
I wish I could do that consistently in the stock market. :shades: It obviously remains to be seen if the now $ 2,000 diesel premium can fetch $6,000 in increased resale value. So for you math types, that is still 200%.
So for another example, most folks will "junk UP" their cars with "non germane" stuff almost automatically. Most of the packaged options will easily exceed 2,000. For example when I bought the Civic, automatic door locks and cruise control would have added 1,200. So to me, the 2k (diesel) premium has a better chance to return HIGHER resale values than most anything you would want to compare it against.
Response to your response
I am a tad mystified as to why the MB 7 speed on GL320 did not pass your muster as I have heard on good authority (@ least the ones I trust anyway) the 7 speed automatic mated to the E320 CDI diesel is one of the best combo's !! He gets 38 mpg @ 80 mph! I would still opt for a manual, but in my family 3/4 prefer automatic.
I did test drive the 2009 VW TDI Jetta (loyal version) with the DSG. I only got it up to 80/85 mph :lemon: as the most of the test drive was during FULL rush hour traffic. I was also under the mistaken impression it was a automatic and did not shift the DSG during the test drive. So to me, the DSG was VERY VERY SEAMLESS!! I will probably go back to do another test drive with the DSG shift fest, when all the fuss dies down.
a tad mystified as to why the MB 7 speed on GL320 did not pass your muster
In all fairness to the Mercedes 7 speed automatic. I did like the smooth acceleration and quiet ride of the GL320 CDI. Also very comfortable seats. Something that is lacking in many of the new SUVs. I only drove onto the freeway then off at the next off ramp. That is where I noticed the down shift and not the usual coasting I am used to with an automatic transmission. I think if they were not asking $83k for a vehicle that would be easy to get new in another state for about $70k I may have taken more time to drive and get used to it. After sitting in both the GL and ML front and back seats I think the ML is a little more comfortable in the second row. I really do not need a 7 passenger. 4-5 people in a car is about my tolerance level. I have never had the last row in the Sequoia set up. It is basically a plush 4 passenger SUV with captain chairs in the second row.
This fall when the X5 35D comes out I will go test drive them and the ML3230 CDI. I would not mind a tiny SUV like the Tiguan TDI. They just seem SOOOO Small.
..."One 94 Ford at the Marriott is still on it's feet with only 400000 miles but 15000 hours on it."..
I would also agree, but HIS words above (quote) led me to believe 4 M was put purposefully. So hopefully he will chime in with clarification. 15,000 hours can range in mileage from a high (@50 mph avg) of 750,000 miles to the 400,000 miles he mentions (so 27 mph is the avg 400,000/15,000 hours= 26.667 mph which is in keeping with a so called "people mover"
Lost of buzz TODAY on CNBC about record 144.73 per barrel OIL (LSC) Talking heads babble on almost uncontrollably.
All the big chiefs are in serious pow wow/s about the Fanny, Freddie, potential debacle/ babble.
Have a 50-70 mpg car built already in Europe? DO NOT let it in the the USA. Have a product that can get 20-40% better fuel mileage? BAN IT and do everything you can to cut the mpg advantage. When faced with burning more or less? Burn MORE and advocate burning less. Have a 27 mpg standard? Let the DEFACTO 22 mpg standard run its course. Have alternative fuels such as bio diesel, vilify the HELL out of it, make it economically impossible to come to market with it. Ban to limit the machines that can burn it.
Makes me want to go out and take another test drive on the new 2009 VW Jetta TDI (loyal) DSG model, but I need to get there in my old beater that gets 50 mpg. :lemon: :shades:
I just read my posting and could find no reference to 4 million any ware. I mention the 94 only to point out that like the rest of the fleet we worked on has lasted much longer then Joe Gasser would expect. Just think how much more service they could get if the OEM's would install something like a Perkins 6-354 in these types of vehicle? Of course the few diesels that where in the hotels fleets showed up on the hook about every 90 days to have the unleaded gas drained and replaced with number 2 diesel. The second question that comes up in the longevity debate is the chassis and body's won't last much more then a half million miles anyway. Witch reminds me of the people who insist on using additives and synthetic oil to prolong their engine life. These folks are living in the granddads Oldsmobile. The only two things synthetics are good for is an easier start in cold weather and for long life and easy shifting in H D trucks transmission and rear ends. Well I currently have wonderd off the question but I have too much time on my hands, guess I will look for a part time job. Have a long drive, Planters
..."I really do not need a 7 passenger. 4-5 people in a car is about my tolerance level."...
Two years ago my wife and I took our daughter and 3 of her friends (6 total) in the 96 TLC (belts for 8 folks) for app a week of the "college rounds." Because of flex seating we configured it so each had their own seat. We shot first to UCSD (University of California @ San Diego) and all parts San Diego and some to all of them stayed in the dorms/apts etc. each night. The wife and I stayed at hotels. We picked each up at pre arranged times and places (gotta love cell phones!) Then we worked our way north. So not only did we have a weeks worth of packing, but all 4 had their mattress pads and sleeping bags.
All are REALLY great kids!! (or should I really say YOUNG adults) but yes it was like being back with the Navy, it did at times, test the tolerance levels.
Not bad mileage for an almost full house- 15/16 mpg.
"In the first place the fuel is already liquid so it can't condense; however it might be possible for something to condense out of it. "
I think they were suggesting the liquid droplets in the air would condense on the cylinder walls and not become part of the combustion process.
The whole issue of biodiesel chemistry is interesting. Since biodiesel can be made from many feedstocks, it is likely a challenge to get everyone on the same page from a QA/QC standpoint.
There are 146 operating oil refineries according to EIA. I suspect there are a lot more biodiesel operations when you count both large and small.
http://grist.org/news/maindish/2006/12/07/gertz/index1.html "Hopkins worries that community-scale facilities run by the little guys will fall outside the American Society for Testing and Materials regulatory standards for fuel quality that larger manufacturers are required to meet, and for which they pay expensive testing fees."
This is certainly a challenge for the small producers. All you need is to have a few small producers mess up and you could wound the golden goose. It only takes one good screw-up for a whole new wave of regulations.
"He's also concerned that grassroots ventures lack staff with the proper training in engineering and chemistry to operate safely. And there's the pollution risk: U.S. Biofuels uses expensive protective and filtering systems to avoid methanol leaks into the atmosphere. "Their heart is in the right place," says Hopkins of the grassroots projects. "I love what they're doing, but it scares me."
The big dogs are going to be able to handle the regulations. It really would not make sense to have thousands of small producers make this environmental friendly fuel only to be leaking methanol.
AAA is reporting a spread of 71.3 cents. That is nice that the corner store where you are is only 52 cents, but the nationwide spread is more relevant.
40/4.098 = 9.76 50/4.811 = 10.39 cents per mile driven
I win again. :shades:
Maybe your calculator is broke. Are you using the MS Windows calculator? That would explain a lot. Try using Linux gcalctool 5.22.2.
Truth is you lose again. You are compiling an impressive -100% record.
What do you think the place where YOU buy gas would say if you said, " I will only pay the AAA advertised spread, and more specifically, prices??" (After you filled the tank and have yet to pay) LOL !!
Your post would probably work in a dream world. If you did that crap in the real world, you'd be in the pokey for theft aka petty.
Neither you nor I buy nation wide. Even when I drive thru 12 states
( /48 lower, I am not even including Hawaii for you know that the prices are almost ALWAYS higher than CONUS states of that same nation)
I could not buy at the AAA advertised spreads nor prices.
Nor did you address the nation wide rise in gas prices, even as nation wide demand is lessening. It might be win/loss to you, but it is discussion to me.
I just came from the local VW dealer in Tacoma, WA and at this point the jury is still out as to whether I will continue to pursue my quest for a TDI.
They have one Jetta TDI Sedan for test drives; it is labeled a Loyalty trim level and comes in at (round figures) $24,XXX and the dealer added another $4,XXX. The bottom line was $29,XXX
The sales person said the price was negotiable, but as popular as they are, they plan to make some money from them. Six of the ten car delivery are sold and the cars do not arrive until the end if the month. All sedans.
I think I,m going to stop talking up diesels until I get mine.
Yes, when I went to test drive the 2009 Jetta TDI DSG (loyal version) a fair amount of the time spent at the dealership was the internet manager trying to get me to sell the TDI I already have. I was trying to turn the attention to the prices on the TDI dealer sheets, he did everything but run the vin through the system. :surprise:
EIA says http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp US RUG=411.4 D2=472.7 difference 61.3 cents CA RUG=455.0 D2=500.1 difference 45.1 cents Sequoia @ 15 MPG in CA = 30.33 cents per mile ML320 CDI @ 25.6 MPG CA = 19.53 cents per mile
I will take the ML320 CDI over the Sequoia even with the added cost of diesel. Diesel would have to be $7.76 per gallon for the Sequoia to break even at the current CA RUG price of $4.55. Reference Mercedes ML320 CDI mileage when Green Car Congress did the cross country matchup with the Hybrid Lexus RX and proved who was king of the mileage SUVs.
I think you know that diesel is the obvious choice for someone REALLY interested in saving fossil fuel with an eye to the future of alternative fuels.
When you get ready to buy I would check with Portland dealers. I got a great deal from Armstrong Buick Volkswagen in Gladstone Oregon. I tried several Washington state dealers and my impression was not good. They would not even talk lower than MSRP. I have a real aversion to paying anything above invoice so we just did not see eye to eye. All the dealers in Portland were more open to dealing than those in WA. That was 2005. The Internet guy I dealt with retired to Hawaii. I guess I talked him into it. I think it will take a couple months for the dust to settle. By winter when the heating oil kicks up the price of diesel the dealers may be easier to deal with.
I think your right, a few months will shed more light on how well they move and if the car market is good or bad. There seems to be a lot of new cars on the road and I imagine it’s the bargain hunters picking up the end of the year good deals. In September we will find out if there is any money to pay new car prices.
I detected a bit of arrogance from the salesman and that kind of turned me off, plus he did not seem to have his ducks in a row when I started talking about prices, etc.
I didn’t take a close look at the sticker to see what all was added on to increase the price by $4.XXX and maybe they “might” be valid.
If time permits I’ll get back to take a closer look, but that was part of what I didn’t like, the salesman pointed at the $24,XXX and then the $29,XXX and said something about making a profit, but the price was negotiable.
I’m with Gary; wait and see and go out of state if need be.
That is how I felt when I went to look at the Honda Accord Hybrid. They wanted $3000 over the $32,000 MSRP. There are a lot nicer cars for $35,000 than the Accord Hybrid. It sat on the lot for a long time. The arrogance was such a turn off that when I wanted to look at the Pilot I just could not bring myself to going into a Honda dealer. I guess they don't care. Hopefully VWOA will collar their greedy dealers before they run off too many prospective buyers. You can get decent buys in CA sometimes, just stuck paying their tax even on out of state sales. Arizona is similar. Nevada is another good place to car shop and lots of cheap airfare going there.
..."The clean emissions light duty oil burner will find a place in the engine compartments of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra half-ton pickups by the 2010 model year. It's expected to be rated in excess of 310-horsepower and 520 pound-feet of torque. In comparison, the 6.6-liter Duramax, currently used in GM's heavy duty pickup, is rated at 365-hp / 660 lb-ft"...
BMW is preparing to put the 'd' back into the United States market. Starting in the fall of 2008, two models will be available with a 3.0-liter biturbo in-line six diesel engine. They'll make their first appearance at the 2008 North American International Auto Show.
The 335d and X5 xDrive 35d will be the first BMW diesels sold in the U.S. in well over two decades. The Advanced Diesel with BluePerformance is a version of BMW's diesel in-line six that's already sold in Europe, where diesels account for two-thirds of the company's new vehicle sales. The addition of BluePerformance urea injection allows these models to be sold in all fifty states, even those following California's strict emissions standards.
BluePerformance uses a solution called AdBlue, which is basically urea (yes, that urea) that is injected into the exhaust gas to turn nitrous oxides into nitrogen gas and water vapor. This works with a diesel particulate filter to reduce emissions. The AdBlue solution should only need to be replenished during regular service intervals, and BMW will include free refills in its 4-year/50,000-mile maintenance program. This is the same system that Mercedes-Benz uses in its Bluetec diesels.
But you don't care about any of that, as long as it means you can get a 3-series with 265 hp and - get ready for this - 425 lb-ft of torque.
Wait, 425 lb-ft? As in 130 more than the new M3? Yes, indeed. What's more, two differently sized turbochargers help make that torque available at only 1750 rpm. The smaller of the two spins up first to minimize lag at lower rpm, and the larger turbo comes on at higher engine speeds to keep things going.
The diesel-equipped 3-series has a claimed 0-to-62-mph time of 6.2 seconds - a claim we'd believe, since several Automobile Magazine editors have driven the car in Europe. The 335d is estimated to return fuel economy of 23 mpg in the city and 33 mpg on the highway. The X5 xDrive 35d will take an extra second to reach 62 mph and will consume diesel at a rate of 19 mpg around town and 25 mpg in highway driving.
That is true, however, your local numbers work for your situation. There will be others where the spread is higher and the diesel cost per mile is not as good.
As an example, Vermont - $4.070 RUG and $4.952 diesel Texas - $3.966 RUG and $4.746 diesel
That gives a spread of 88.2 cents and 78 cents respectively.
Enjoy you local situation, the numbers work for you. The rest of us need to crunch the numbers for our state or driving area.
AAA is also reporting $4.817, another record price for diesel. Hawaii leads the nation at $5.382. Things are expensive in Paradise!
And, to add some international diesel news;
"Abu Dhabi has rationed the supply of diesel to heavy duty vehicles at its petrol pumps to ease worsening traffic congestion...." http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4288#more
You know things are getting interesting when one of the Middle Eastern countries has a diesel shortage.
"I will take the ML320 CDI over the Sequoia even with the added cost of diesel."
Are you referring to future purchases? A few posts back you explained why you bought you Sequoia and not the CDI. Will you be trading in soon?
"I think you know that diesel is the obvious choice for someone REALLY interested in saving fossil fuel with an eye to the future of alternative fuels. "
Actually, I am looking more at getting a small 50cc scooter or an electric bike for my 2.5 mile commute.
And just for the heck of it I tried to find a 50cc diesel scooter on Google. Lots of false leads. I did find out that the high revving nature of the 50cc probably rules out a diesel.
Of course, I could buy an electric scooter and charge it up with a small generator running on biodiesel. :shades:
You know things are getting interesting when one of the Middle Eastern countries has a diesel shortage.
It sounds like they are trying limit traffic in their congested cities. That is one thing that higher prices will help control, congestion. They may also have limited refining capacity. It is not lack of crude oil. We in the US have kept a good balance of gas to diesel. If diesel cars were to catch on as in the EU it would be a problem. Kind of like 100 years ago. The only valuable product was diesel. The gas was dumped because no one wanted the junk. Kind of the way I feel about gas. gasoline is inferior fuel for the masses. Laced with ethanol it is even less valuable. That is something the EPA mileage charts do not reflect. I will bet they do not do their tests with E10 as we are sold here in CA.
You mention Hawaii which has historically had much higher energy costs than the rest of US. They now have a good supplier of biodiesel. Have not heard what they are charging. Most of their electric is generated with diesel. You can get diesel for $5.11 on Oahu while gas is as low as $4.18. That is cheaper than any station in CA right now. Again showing the surplus of gas vs diesel.
I am hoping the illusion of diesel being a bad deal will keep the price of the new diesel cars down.
I have read in passing that there have been 165 bio diesel plants built in the USA and this is vs ZERO refineries "larger scale refineries in at least the past generation (30-40 years) . This has of course practical as well as interesting ramifications.
... The "no new refineries" word-op usually does not mention the hundreds of millions invested, to increase production, in the existing facilities, because it's much less expensive than trying to have a new location permitted.
Indeed, just to implement the MTBF fiasco in CA was widely reported to be in the BILLIONS of dollars. As discussed in other and past posts AFTER the billions were invested in this, the legislature made it mandatory to remove MTBE !!!!!! Losses are of course HUGE and it was TOTALLY unnecessary!!!!
Now I do not know how many CITGO operations are in the USA, but it is commonly known the parent company is the Venezuelan government, aka PRESIDENT HUGO Chavez. So the anti American rhetoric is funded by US dollars. Are folks knaive enough to believe the government of Venezuela does NOT have heavy lobby presence by way of Citgo in the Senate and House/CONGRESS? :lemon:
... "The company is owned by PDV America, Inc., an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A., the national oil company of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela."...
So in passing, a local dollar spend locally has an 8 to 1 multiplier effect. So what do you think happens when the money goes off shore; like to Citgo, owned by the Venezuelan government, aka President Hugo Chavez? Funny how there is no anti Satan schtick and American devil EVIL minions on the Citgo.com web site link title
It also doesn't make sense with the increased capacity, the gasser prices are still rising as the demand is supposed to be subsiding. Of course having said that it makes ALL the sense in the world!!!!
Indeed your post shows even more graphically how much sense alternative fuel and localized bio diesel makes..
The real secret which is hidden in plain sight, is the logistical food chain really doesn't like alternative fuels.
Indeed I do not like using E10 (as per Gagrice's post), (aka "oyxgenated fuel" which is mandated at certain times of the year in CA.
As most are aware, the E10 fuel mileage is TERRIBLE!! E85 is even WORSE than that! E100? well I think folks get the slant of the slope here. Lets put it this way; if there were two pumps 1. e10 2. rug how many would chose the E10/aka #1?
However I really think bio diesel makes almost no brainer sense. That however is one of its most vexing problems.
Not to go on and on, but if the system REALLY wanted bio diesel to flourish, they would give deep tax credit/tax cut/ etc to using bio diesel in passenger cars. This is another no brainer as the red dye diesel program has been in place-forever.
As the government has already documented, the passenger diesel population is already 2% down from less than 3%. An EXTREME MINORITY of that 2% (251.4M vehicles* 2%=FAR LESS than 5.028 M more like 1% or 50,280 CARS ) population uses bio diesel. Bio diesel of course can range from B5, B20,... to B100. You can mix your own. Indeed.... you can MAKE your own!!!???? :shades:
Are you referring to future purchases? A few posts back you explained why you bought you Sequoia and not the CDI. Will you be trading in soon?
I will buy a diesel SUV when and if I find one that I like. I will then sell the Sequoia. As you know there is NO way in the world you will ever get a good deal trading in a car to a dealer. I have sold 4 vehicles over the last 2 years all on Craigslist or the Trader. That is the only way to come out with your shorts.
I am leaning in the direction of the X5 35D. BMW has stuck with the inline 6 cylinder diesel engine. I feel that is a better configuration than the V6 in the Mercedes, Audi and VW SUVs. Plus the X5 may be the best handling SUV on the planet. I am sure the Cayenne owners will debate that. Far, far better handling than any car out of Japan.
Consumer Guide reports "outstanding balance, grip, steering feel make X5 feel more like a sport sedan than an SUV." Along with plenty of power (particularly in the V8), the X5 has exacting steering, a sport-tuned suspension, powerful brakes and an efficient all-wheel drive system, causing reviewers to rave over its complete driving experience. The Kansas City Star calls the X5 "a pavement burner."
Motor scooters are good cheap fun and practical for short city hops. I doubt you will find a diesel version.
Indeed the IN line 6 is bullet proof and the configuration really plays into the sweet spot of a diesel (max torque comes on at relatively low rpms). When I had the inline 6 Toyota Landcruiser, it was common knowledge amongst aficionado's the block could easily be "cored out" 3 times. So if you get 300,000 miles per core job (I was @ 250,000 miles when I sold it), that is 1.2 M miles MINIMUM !!! One spin off is mpg is NOT as good as a V6, or even as good as a larger stroked/bored and displacement I4.
Sell a tug boat and buy one. I see that Hybrid Cars has a glowing article on the X5 diesel. With a base price the same as the ML320 CDI it should be an interesting fall in the SUV market. The article claims $45k base with high hopes for the diesel. It should be a winner.
The X5 is popular, but it’s appeal is expected to go through the roof once diesel is introduced. At the same time, the diesel movement as a whole should gain considerable visibility and momentum with the launch of this SUV.
Volkswagen dealers say the high price of diesel fuel isn't stopping a rush of buyers eager to snatch up the first batch of Jetta TDI cars. The TDI models -- with new diesels that meet emissions standards in all 50 states -- don't go on sale until late August. But many dealers say they already have enough orders to eat up their 2008 allocation of the new Jetta sedan and Sportwagen TDI. [SUB] 12:01 am U.S. ET | July 14
Volkswagen dealers say the high price of diesel fuel isn't stopping a rush of buyers eager to snatch up the first batch of Jetta TDI cars. The TDI models -- with new diesels that meet emissions standards in all 50 states -- don't go on sale until late August. But many dealers say they already have enough orders to eat up their 2008 allocation of the new Jetta sedan and Sportwagen TDI. [SUB] 12:01 am U.S. ET | July 14
Comments
04 Civic (gasser) sell for app 500 less than what was paid new. There is no like model diesel so it is hard to make the comparison.
However general public will see it differently, as Diesel fuel prices will continue to stay strong and hard to justify to purchase a brand new Diesel vehicle. IMO, natural gas vehicle will likely to sell better than Diesel, folks at Oklahoma and Utah only pay less $1.00 per gallon for CNG. :surprise:
Diesel SUV's getting 30-35 mpg will literally revolutionize these segments.
Diesel fuel is literally available ANYWHERE, albeit @ fewer fuel stations. Diesel passenger cars have been MICRO regulated, so the markets have been not as "free".
Nat gas has NO infrastructure to speak of. Home fuel adapters I think can be rented/bought for 1000 plus installation. I think the regulatory agencies are conflicted about letting taxpayers use them. In the case of regulatory agencies using them, they usually have a staging refueling yard and they do NOT pay TAXES.
Does anyone you know about have diesel SUVs on the way for the USA market? Other than MB?
As I have said before, and this still stands:
For diesel vehicles to gain wide popularity in the USA, one thing that FOR SURE must happen is that there must be a wide variety of automakers who are offering multiple vehicle types with multiple configurations - in all 50 states. Not merely Mercedes (too pricey for wide adoption) and VW (regardless of the reality, they have a reliability problem in public perception.)
Honda announcing the diesel Acura for the USA and the HOPE that they will offer a diesel version of the Accord is a good start.
Hopefully 'Yota and Nissan and others will follow suit with USA diesels.
It has taken some time, but indeed you now seem to agree with the position I have expressed all along. So EVEN if it takes the trajectory of SUV growth, currently @ 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet; (considered by some to have had the growth rate of rodents in NYC) it will take 30 years.
As the only point of heavy trucks is to note that engine life sometimes gets confused between fuel and weight? A 600 # Blue-tech at 200 + hp and 2 L probably will not have the life of a 14 L Cummins at 4500# and 600 hp.
That said back to gassers { i"m waiting for a Subaru Outback Diesel for my next car }. The business of moving people to and from airports and the expedited fright business are probably the worst duty cycle for any vehicle and add in our extremes of weather only to add to the ware and tare.
I still have my work order computer list and could show all of this to anyone who wants to see. First brand brake out by number of vans maintained, Ford 140, Chev 40 and dodge 2.
Fri st Chev's, we had a company that ran the midsized van with 4.3 L and auto trans they did not even think of selling, thats right SELLING these plane white windowless vans until they had 4000000 miles on them and usually got between 2500 and 3000 dollars for them. Oh by the way we never replaced a engine or transmission. Another brought in three full size G vans with 5.7 L and auto transmission with 3000000 miles on them for their first tune up? Plug gaps you could walk through and they still ran fine for modern computers.
The numbers kind of tell you who the real stars wher though, Fords a few E150"s and E250"s but the bulk E350 & 450"s with everything from a 300 six { sold at 627000 miles, running but in need of valve job } 351/5.7 L , 460"s , 7.4 L , 5.4 and 6.8L"s Of the millions of miles total on these trucks enduring a horrible duty cycle { most were started at 4:00 AM and shut off at 2:00 AM } but perhaps the worst group of drivers that could be found and the reliability was incredible.
In nine years we replaced 1 Chev and 1 Ford transmission and one Chevy and 3 Ford engines, the Engines where one 4.3 Lone Chevy 5.7 L one Ford/ IH 7.4 Diesel { twice as the tech dropped a bolt in the intake and forgot to tell anyone } and 3 6.8 L Fords one that had a defect in block casting and the other two because the professional driver forgot to check or add oil.
One 94 Ford at the Marriott is still on it's feet with only 400000 miles but 15000 hours on it.
The point of all this is that with even the worst drivers and jobs today's larger gas engines can do wonders with nothing but good maintenance.
As you are probably aware there are HUGE differences between the passenger cars we are referring and the heavy duty truck segment you seem to have built 9 years of your career with. If I got 4,000,000 miles with my Honda Civic, trust me, I would be tickled pink.
The BMW X5 35D is due in all 50 states this fall. The Tiguan TDI is due first of the year. The Subaru Outback is supposed to be a 2010 model. The X5 and ML320 CDI are the two diesels that will get my attention this fall. If I like either one I will put the Sequoia on the market. Should be easy to sell as it is the best of the best that Toyota ever built. In a 200 mile radius there is only one like mine for sale. They are asking more than I paid new with more miles than mine has on it. Gas could be $6 and there will be a market for the good SUVs. I was a bit surprised that only one was for sale.
"What state would that be in? People are lining up and putting deposits on the new VW TDI Jetta and Sportwagon due into CA very soon. "
You are incorrectly extrapolating the initial reaction to a new car introduction, a few thousand people wanting to buy a TDI Jetta, with the overall buying habits of consumers. The original statement from tomjava was correct. Overall U.S. consumes are not on the diesel band wagon. There are many cars where people put deposits down. Just about anything that gets good fuel economy is hot. Many of these cars have long waiting lists.
I do find it ironic that you bought a gasser when there are a lot of good diesel pickups out there. Apparently having a diesel engine wasn't high enough on the list to get you to purchase one. Now if you, one of the more vigorous supporters of diesel found reasons not to buy one, why do you thing the average consumer would buy one? You knew all the advantages of the diesel power plant and yet you still bought a gasser. :confuse:
Anyway,
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/bm/2009-mercedes-bluetec.php
Another diesel related story was at the oil drum.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4255#more
I found it interesting that distillate demand dropped almost 4% in the first 4 months of 2008, yet diesel prices soared. Apparently more diesel/distillate is being exported!!! An interesting comment was: "The world market is perhaps beginning to value distillate more highly, relative to gasoline, because of its greater energy content. "
That really is not a good sign for diesel or distillate users. Prices look to stay rather robust.
I have a cheapo 99 Ford Ranger that handles my PU needs. I had just sold a 2005 GMC Hybrid PU that I did not want to even get dirty using it. So for $4000 I have a cheap truck that I can throw stuff in without the worry of denting it or scratching the paint. Besides, I wanted a diesel SUV for trips. I did test drive a used GL320 CDI that our local MB dealer was selling. Two things caused me to not buy it. First they were asking $12,000 over what it sold for new. And I did not like the way the 7 speed transmission would down shift each time I let off the accelerator. The salesman had no explanation as to why and I kept looking. Quite by accident I test drove a Sequoia and liked it. When a loaded 4X4 was offered at $10k UNDER MSRP I decided it was a safe interim vehicle until I find the diesel SUV that I really like. Now waiting on the X5 35D to arrive. The X5 handles better than most cars. It should be capable of 30 MPG on the highway. That would be better than 16-17 MPG that the Sequoia gets. At least until diesel is twice the price of gas. I don't think that will happen.
In addition to the already mentioned X5, Tiquan, Tourag, and Outback,
GM is planning a 4.6L V8 for their Tahoe/Suburban/Yukon plus full size pickups in 2010; Ford is doing the same for the F-150/Expedition.
I wouldn't expect 30 mpg out of the full size ones, but mid 20's would be a huge improvement for someone that still wants to drive full size.
QUOTE
Until there are more diesel offerings in the most popular (- my editorial .02cents) models, as per Larsb's (conversion) view, it is really a stretch to say there are a lot of good diesel pick ups out there. As milestones, good diesel pick ups WOULD BE: Chevy 150 series, Silverado, (probably variants too numerous to include) Ford F150, Dodge 1500, Toyota Tacoma, Tundra, etc, etc,. (so I am not being vague)
The key for me also has been "LIKE" models. There was/is/continues to be significant bru ha ha JUST for the diesel premium; let alone an upgrade path. In the case of the 03 VW Jetta over 1.8T, $246.
On resale values, hindsight shows an almost 6,000 (DIESEL) advantage over the 1.8T ENGINE/drive train. (almost everything else about the cars are the same.)
So by any stretch, spending $ 246. to get $6,000. over 5/6 years (24.39 to 1) ain't bad?! (406% per YEAR!!??)
I wish I could do that consistently in the stock market. :shades:
So for another example, most folks will "junk UP" their cars with "non germane" stuff almost automatically. Most of the packaged options will easily exceed 2,000. For example when I bought the Civic, automatic door locks and cruise control would have added 1,200. So to me, the 2k (diesel) premium has a better chance to return HIGHER resale values than most anything you would want to compare it against.
Response to your response
I am a tad mystified as to why the MB 7 speed on GL320 did not pass your muster as I have heard on good authority (@ least the ones I trust anyway) the 7 speed automatic mated to the E320 CDI diesel is one of the best combo's !! He gets 38 mpg @ 80 mph! I would still opt for a manual, but in my family 3/4 prefer automatic.
I did test drive the 2009 VW TDI Jetta (loyal version) with the DSG. I only got it up to 80/85 mph :lemon: as the most of the test drive was during FULL rush hour traffic. I was also under the mistaken impression it was a automatic and did not shift the DSG during the test drive. So to me, the DSG was VERY VERY SEAMLESS!! I will probably go back to do another test drive with the DSG shift fest, when all the fuss dies down.
In all fairness to the Mercedes 7 speed automatic. I did like the smooth acceleration and quiet ride of the GL320 CDI. Also very comfortable seats. Something that is lacking in many of the new SUVs. I only drove onto the freeway then off at the next off ramp. That is where I noticed the down shift and not the usual coasting I am used to with an automatic transmission. I think if they were not asking $83k for a vehicle that would be easy to get new in another state for about $70k I may have taken more time to drive and get used to it. After sitting in both the GL and ML front and back seats I think the ML is a little more comfortable in the second row. I really do not need a 7 passenger. 4-5 people in a car is about my tolerance level. I have never had the last row in the Sequoia set up. It is basically a plush 4 passenger SUV with captain chairs in the second row.
This fall when the X5 35D comes out I will go test drive them and the ML3230 CDI. I would not mind a tiny SUV like the Tiguan TDI. They just seem SOOOO Small.
I would also agree, but HIS words above (quote) led me to believe 4 M was put purposefully. So hopefully he will chime in with clarification. 15,000 hours can range in mileage from a high (@50 mph avg) of 750,000 miles to the 400,000 miles he mentions (so 27 mph is the avg 400,000/15,000 hours= 26.667 mph which is in keeping with a so called "people mover"
Lost of buzz TODAY on CNBC about record 144.73 per barrel OIL (LSC) Talking heads babble on almost uncontrollably.
All the big chiefs are in serious pow wow/s about the Fanny, Freddie, potential debacle/ babble.
Have a 50-70 mpg car built already in Europe? DO NOT let it in the the USA. Have a product that can get 20-40% better fuel mileage? BAN IT and do everything you can to cut the mpg advantage. When faced with burning more or less? Burn MORE and advocate burning less. Have a 27 mpg standard? Let the DEFACTO 22 mpg standard run its course. Have alternative fuels such as bio diesel, vilify the HELL out of it, make it economically impossible to come to market with it. Ban to limit the machines that can burn it.
Makes me want to go out and take another test drive on the new 2009 VW Jetta TDI (loyal) DSG model, but I need to get there in my old beater that gets 50 mpg. :lemon: :shades:
I mention the 94 only to point out that like the rest of the fleet we worked on has lasted much longer then Joe Gasser would expect. Just think how much more service they could get if the OEM's would install something like a Perkins 6-354 in these types of vehicle?
Of course the few diesels that where in the hotels fleets showed up on the hook about every 90 days to have the unleaded gas drained and replaced with number 2 diesel.
The second question that comes up in the longevity debate is the chassis and body's won't last much more then a half million miles anyway. Witch reminds me of the people who insist on using additives and synthetic oil to prolong their engine life. These folks are living in the granddads Oldsmobile. The only two things synthetics are good for is an easier start in cold weather and for long life and easy shifting in H D trucks transmission and rear ends.
Well I currently have wonderd off the question but I have too much time on my hands, guess I will look for a part time job.
Have a long drive, Planters
..."they had 4000000 miles on them "...
All I did was count the zeros and put comma's, because it looked WAY weird. You also did that for 3,000,000 also!!!
..."auto transmission with 3000000 miles on them for their first tune up?"...
Your call or correction, I would not want to put/take words (aka ZEROS) in your mouth.
Two years ago my wife and I took our daughter and 3 of her friends (6 total) in the 96 TLC (belts for 8 folks) for app a week of the "college rounds." Because of flex seating we configured it so each had their own seat. We shot first to UCSD (University of California @ San Diego) and all parts San Diego and some to all of them stayed in the dorms/apts etc. each night. The wife and I stayed at hotels.
All are REALLY great kids!! (or should I really say YOUNG adults) but yes it was like being back with the Navy, it did at times, test the tolerance levels.
Not bad mileage for an almost full house- 15/16 mpg.
(you did the job on diesel already)
GOING HIGHER !!!???
Corner store prices
RUG 4.47
PUG 4.67
D2 4.99
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=8775531&ch=4226713&s- - - - - rc=news
So based on corner store prices 38-42 mpg 40/4.47= ..11175 cents
48-52 mpg, 50 mpg/4.99=.0998 cents per mile driven
AKA per mile driven, one is 11% cheaper. even as (that) one consumes 20%
I think they were suggesting the liquid droplets in the air would condense on the cylinder walls and not become part of the combustion process.
The whole issue of biodiesel chemistry is interesting. Since biodiesel can be made from many feedstocks, it is likely a challenge to get everyone on the same page from a QA/QC standpoint.
There are 146 operating oil refineries according to EIA. I suspect there are a lot more biodiesel operations when you count both large and small.
http://grist.org/news/maindish/2006/12/07/gertz/index1.html
"Hopkins worries that community-scale facilities run by the little guys will fall outside the American Society for Testing and Materials regulatory standards for fuel quality that larger manufacturers are required to meet, and for which they pay expensive testing fees."
This is certainly a challenge for the small producers. All you need is to have a few small producers mess up and you could wound the golden goose. It only takes one good screw-up for a whole new wave of regulations.
"He's also concerned that grassroots ventures lack staff with the proper training in engineering and chemistry to operate safely. And there's the pollution risk: U.S. Biofuels uses expensive protective and filtering systems to avoid methanol leaks into the atmosphere. "Their heart is in the right place," says Hopkins of the grassroots projects. "I love what they're doing, but it scares me."
The big dogs are going to be able to handle the regulations. It really would not make sense to have thousands of small producers make this environmental friendly fuel only to be leaking methanol.
RUG 4.47
PUG 4.67
D2 4.99"
AAA is reporting a spread of 71.3 cents. That is nice that the corner store where you are is only 52 cents, but the nationwide spread is more relevant.
40/4.098 = 9.76
50/4.811 = 10.39 cents per mile driven
I win again. :shades:
Maybe your calculator is broke. Are you using the MS Windows calculator? That would explain a lot.
What do you think the place where YOU buy gas would say if you said, " I will only pay the AAA advertised spread, and more specifically, prices??" (After you filled the tank and have yet to pay) LOL !!
Your post would probably work in a dream world. If you did that crap in the real world, you'd be in the pokey for theft aka petty.
Neither you nor I buy nation wide. Even when I drive thru 12 states
( /48 lower, I am not even including Hawaii for you know that the prices are almost ALWAYS higher than CONUS states of that same nation)
I could not buy at the AAA advertised spreads nor prices.
Nor did you address the nation wide rise in gas prices, even as nation wide demand is lessening. It might be win/loss to you, but it is discussion to me.
Missed the marks again!! :lemon:
They have one Jetta TDI Sedan for test drives; it is labeled a Loyalty trim level and comes in at (round figures) $24,XXX and the dealer added another $4,XXX. The bottom line was $29,XXX
The sales person said the price was negotiable, but as popular as they are, they plan to make some money from them. Six of the ten car delivery are sold and the cars do not arrive until the end if the month. All sedans.
I think I,m going to stop talking up diesels until I get mine.
US RUG=411.4 D2=472.7 difference 61.3 cents
CA RUG=455.0 D2=500.1 difference 45.1 cents
Sequoia @ 15 MPG in CA = 30.33 cents per mile
ML320 CDI @ 25.6 MPG CA = 19.53 cents per mile
I will take the ML320 CDI over the Sequoia even with the added cost of diesel. Diesel would have to be $7.76 per gallon for the Sequoia to break even at the current CA RUG price of $4.55. Reference Mercedes ML320 CDI mileage when Green Car Congress did the cross country matchup with the Hybrid Lexus RX and proved who was king of the mileage SUVs.
I think you know that diesel is the obvious choice for someone REALLY interested in saving fossil fuel with an eye to the future of alternative fuels.
There seems to be a lot of new cars on the road and I imagine it’s the bargain hunters picking up the end of the year good deals. In September we will find out if there is any money to pay new car prices.
I detected a bit of arrogance from the salesman and that kind of turned me off, plus he did not seem to have his ducks in a row when I started talking about prices, etc.
Maybe there is a trip to Portland in my future.
If time permits I’ll get back to take a closer look, but that was part of what I didn’t like, the salesman pointed at the $24,XXX and then the $29,XXX and said something about making a profit, but the price was negotiable.
I’m with Gary; wait and see and go out of state if need be.
By: Mike LevinePosted: 06-15-07 11:50 PT
© 2007 PickupTruck.com
..."The clean emissions light duty oil burner will find a place in the engine compartments of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra half-ton pickups by the 2010 model year. It's expected to be rated in excess of 310-horsepower and 520 pound-feet of torque. In comparison, the 6.6-liter Duramax, currently used in GM's heavy duty pickup, is rated at 365-hp / 660 lb-ft"...
link title
310 hp/ 520 # ft of torque/30 mpg...
The equivalent gasser =22 mpg or D2= 27% BETTER mpg.
The 335d and X5 xDrive 35d will be the first BMW diesels sold in the U.S. in well over two decades. The Advanced Diesel with BluePerformance is a version of BMW's diesel in-line six that's already sold in Europe, where diesels account for two-thirds of the company's new vehicle sales. The addition of BluePerformance urea injection allows these models to be sold in all fifty states, even those following California's strict emissions standards.
BluePerformance uses a solution called AdBlue, which is basically urea (yes, that urea) that is injected into the exhaust gas to turn nitrous oxides into nitrogen gas and water vapor. This works with a diesel particulate filter to reduce emissions. The AdBlue solution should only need to be replenished during regular service intervals, and BMW will include free refills in its 4-year/50,000-mile maintenance program. This is the same system that Mercedes-Benz uses in its Bluetec diesels.
But you don't care about any of that, as long as it means you can get a 3-series with 265 hp and - get ready for this - 425 lb-ft of torque.
Wait, 425 lb-ft? As in 130 more than the new M3? Yes, indeed. What's more, two differently sized turbochargers help make that torque available at only 1750 rpm. The smaller of the two spins up first to minimize lag at lower rpm, and the larger turbo comes on at higher engine speeds to keep things going.
The diesel-equipped 3-series has a claimed 0-to-62-mph time of 6.2 seconds - a claim we'd believe, since several Automobile Magazine editors have driven the car in Europe. The 335d is estimated to return fuel economy of 23 mpg in the city and 33 mpg on the highway. The X5 xDrive 35d will take an extra second to reach 62 mph and will consume diesel at a rate of 19 mpg around town and 25 mpg in highway driving.
Ahhhh .. to be rich. I live among them, I'm just not one of them.
That is true, however, your local numbers work for your situation. There will be others where the spread is higher and the diesel cost per mile is not as good.
As an example,
Vermont - $4.070 RUG and $4.952 diesel
Texas - $3.966 RUG and $4.746 diesel
That gives a spread of 88.2 cents and 78 cents respectively.
Enjoy you local situation, the numbers work for you. The rest of us need to crunch the numbers for our state or driving area.
AAA is also reporting $4.817, another record price for diesel. Hawaii leads the nation at $5.382. Things are expensive in Paradise!
And, to add some international diesel news;
"Abu Dhabi has rationed the supply of diesel to heavy duty vehicles at its petrol pumps to ease worsening traffic congestion...."
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4288#more
You know things are getting interesting when one of the Middle Eastern countries has a diesel shortage.
Are you referring to future purchases? A few posts back you explained why you bought you Sequoia and not the CDI. Will you be trading in soon?
"I think you know that diesel is the obvious choice for someone REALLY interested in saving fossil fuel with an eye to the future of alternative fuels. "
Actually, I am looking more at getting a small 50cc scooter or an electric bike for my 2.5 mile commute.
And just for the heck of it I tried to find a 50cc diesel scooter on Google. Lots of false leads. I did find out that the high revving nature of the 50cc probably rules out a diesel.
Of course, I could buy an electric scooter and charge it up with a small generator running on biodiesel. :shades:
Dealers will, unfortunately, follow supply and demand trends to the letter, and make a buck any little way they can.
It sounds like they are trying limit traffic in their congested cities. That is one thing that higher prices will help control, congestion. They may also have limited refining capacity. It is not lack of crude oil. We in the US have kept a good balance of gas to diesel. If diesel cars were to catch on as in the EU it would be a problem. Kind of like 100 years ago. The only valuable product was diesel. The gas was dumped because no one wanted the junk. Kind of the way I feel about gas. gasoline is inferior fuel for the masses. Laced with ethanol it is even less valuable. That is something the EPA mileage charts do not reflect. I will bet they do not do their tests with E10 as we are sold here in CA.
You mention Hawaii which has historically had much higher energy costs than the rest of US. They now have a good supplier of biodiesel. Have not heard what they are charging. Most of their electric is generated with diesel. You can get diesel for $5.11 on Oahu while gas is as low as $4.18. That is cheaper than any station in CA right now. Again showing the surplus of gas vs diesel.
I am hoping the illusion of diesel being a bad deal will keep the price of the new diesel cars down.
Now I do not know how many CITGO operations are in the USA, but it is commonly known the parent company is the Venezuelan government, aka PRESIDENT HUGO Chavez. So the anti American rhetoric is funded by US dollars. Are folks knaive enough to believe the government of Venezuela does NOT have heavy lobby presence by way of Citgo in the Senate and House/CONGRESS? :lemon:
... "The company is owned by PDV America, Inc., an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A., the national oil company of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela."...
So in passing, a local dollar spend locally has an 8 to 1 multiplier effect. So what do you think happens when the money goes off shore; like to Citgo, owned by the Venezuelan government, aka President Hugo Chavez? Funny how there is no anti Satan schtick and American devil EVIL minions on the Citgo.com web site link title
It also doesn't make sense with the increased capacity, the gasser prices are still rising as the demand is supposed to be subsiding. Of course having said that it makes ALL the sense in the world!!!!
Indeed your post shows even more graphically how much sense alternative fuel and localized bio diesel makes..
The real secret which is hidden in plain sight, is the logistical food chain really doesn't like alternative fuels.
Indeed I do not like using E10 (as per Gagrice's post), (aka "oyxgenated fuel" which is mandated at certain times of the year in CA.
As most are aware, the E10 fuel mileage is TERRIBLE!! E85 is even WORSE than that! E100? well I think folks get the slant of the slope here. Lets put it this way; if there were two pumps 1. e10 2. rug how many would chose the E10/aka #1?
However I really think bio diesel makes almost no brainer sense. That however is one of its most vexing problems.
Not to go on and on, but if the system REALLY wanted bio diesel to flourish, they would give deep tax credit/tax cut/ etc to using bio diesel in passenger cars. This is another no brainer as the red dye diesel program has been in place-forever.
As the government has already documented, the passenger diesel population is already 2% down from less than 3%. An EXTREME MINORITY of that 2% (251.4M vehicles* 2%=FAR LESS than 5.028 M more like 1% or 50,280 CARS ) population uses bio diesel. Bio diesel of course can range from B5, B20,... to B100. You can mix your own. Indeed.... you can MAKE your own!!!???? :shades:
I will buy a diesel SUV when and if I find one that I like. I will then sell the Sequoia. As you know there is NO way in the world you will ever get a good deal trading in a car to a dealer. I have sold 4 vehicles over the last 2 years all on Craigslist or the Trader. That is the only way to come out with your shorts.
I am leaning in the direction of the X5 35D. BMW has stuck with the inline 6 cylinder diesel engine. I feel that is a better configuration than the V6 in the Mercedes, Audi and VW SUVs. Plus the X5 may be the best handling SUV on the planet. I am sure the Cayenne owners will debate that. Far, far better handling than any car out of Japan.
Consumer Guide reports "outstanding balance, grip, steering feel make X5 feel more like a sport sedan than an SUV." Along with plenty of power (particularly in the V8), the X5 has exacting steering, a sport-tuned suspension, powerful brakes and an efficient all-wheel drive system, causing reviewers to rave over its complete driving experience. The Kansas City Star calls the X5 "a pavement burner."
Motor scooters are good cheap fun and practical for short city hops. I doubt you will find a diesel version.
The X5 is popular, but it’s appeal is expected to go through the roof once diesel is introduced. At the same time, the diesel movement as a whole should gain considerable visibility and momentum with the launch of this SUV.
http://www.hybridcars.com/vehicle/bmw-x5-diesel.html
With 25-30 MPG SUVs popping up it should give new life to at least the luxury SUV market. Both Mercedes and BMW are built in the USA.
http://www.autonews.com/
Despite pricey fuel, Jetta diesel in demand
Volkswagen dealers say the high price of diesel fuel isn't stopping a rush of buyers eager to snatch up the first batch of Jetta TDI cars. The TDI models -- with new diesels that meet emissions standards in all 50 states -- don't go on sale until late August. But many dealers say they already have enough orders to eat up their 2008 allocation of the new Jetta sedan and Sportwagen TDI. [SUB] 12:01 am U.S. ET | July 14
http://www.autonews.com/
Despite pricey fuel, Jetta diesel in demand
Volkswagen dealers say the high price of diesel fuel isn't stopping a rush of buyers eager to snatch up the first batch of Jetta TDI cars. The TDI models -- with new diesels that meet emissions standards in all 50 states -- don't go on sale until late August. But many dealers say they already have enough orders to eat up their 2008 allocation of the new Jetta sedan and Sportwagen TDI. [SUB] 12:01 am U.S. ET | July 14