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A local dealer went out of business, and another dealer picked up a new automatic dirt cheap. It was probably $1500 under-priced, far cheaper than any manuals around me.
I still passed. It defeats the whole purpose of the car.
No kidding!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Then throw in a stick shift and an inexperienced, unknowledgeable driver and you have a recipe for DESASTER.
But VW has now found a solution for the FWD stick shift issue. Their FWD stick shift vehicles will now automatically uprev the engine should the driver inadvertently downshift to a level that results in so much engine braking on those front wheels that wheelskid results.
ABS for engine compression braking, as it were.
Been a lot safer in my FWD minivan because I would have done a 3 point turn instead of thinking the AWD would pull me through.
Keep counting those rigs in the ditch during adverse conditions and see how the 4WD/AWD vs FWD/RWD score goes. Probably 10 to 1 in favor of the FWD rigs.
Utter unadulterated nonsense! I have driven hundreds oif thousands of miles safely in Northern New England with all varieties of drivetrain (RWD/FWD/AWD) in all kinds of weather. When it gets slippery the most important component is the "nut behind the wheel"; all three can be operated safely in slippery conditions except for glare ice in which case none will suffice unless equipped w studded tires.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Amen, brother.
I've driven well over a million miles, mostly in RWD vehicles, much of it in snow country. Even in my single-axle Kenworth it was possible to make it through very tough conditions. As you stated, only solid ice is a major issue, and even that can be dealt with, using studded tires or chains.
While AWD & 4WD certainly helps traction when accelerating, it's everyone in the same pool when it comes time to stop or turn the vehicle.
Get good tires.
Learn to drive.
Just what is the average driver's exposure time to adverse wintertime conditions.
My early driving experience was in NH and then MT so I developed, gained, experience with driving in those conditions at a fairly early age.
Perhaps I should modify my position...
For driver's with little or no experience driving front drive vehicles on adverse roadbed conditions a FWD or even most F/awd vehicles will be patently UNSAFE as/when compared to even a simple RWD vehicle.
I drive a F/awd vehicle(***) myself, and have done so safely since 2000. But I do NOT hesitate to throw rear tire chains on at the very first indication of need. In the wintertime I keep a second set on board for the front for the rare times of need.
*** '01 RX300 with "FULL-TIME" F/awd, Full-Time just as long as all four tires have roughly equal traction. Outside of that requirement TC is used to "enforce" engine torque distribution. Regretably along with that "enforcement" comes total and complete engine dethrottling.
First lets define, for this post only if you so choose, the meaning of AWD & 4WD...
Let's relegate 4WD to those base RWD vehicles that have a center diff'l that can be locked..Okay..??
AWD..comes in two "flavors".
R/awd, like the BMW X5, 2011 Porsche Cayenne, etc.
F/awd, my RX300, or the Sienna, for instance. Sienna = front drive ONLY except during low speed acceleration or turns. RX300 = 3 simple open diff'ls, front, center, rear. Full-time AWD until wheelspin/slip develops wherein it reverts to ONE-WHEEL drive, with TC acting as a center LSD.
So, the need to STOP...
In a RWD or R/awd I can readily, and safely, use engine compression braking as an assist, or as the entire resource for slowing the vehicle. Try using engine compression braking on a FWD or F/awd, even inadvertently (unknowingly), and you might be faced with loss of directional control, absent an "inverse" ABS system(***1)
FWD or F/awd "time to turn".
The latest F/awd versions will actually relegate a portion of the engine torque to the rear wheels when turning in order to reduce the engine drive torque to the front. Thereby allocating a higher level of front tire traction to the lateral forces encountered during turning.
So, apply too much throttle to a RWD or R/awd vehicle and the rear end might well break loose. But you will then still have stearing ability available in order to maintain directional control.
Too much throttle on a FWD or F/awd vehicle.....PRAY..
Or have one of the newer vehicles with hyper-aggressive TC that activates the INSTANT wheelspin/slip is detected. Some of the newer TC systems will now also INSTANTLY dethrottle the engine PRE-EMPTIVELY if you attempt to enter a tight turn with a high throttle opening.
*** VW's engine up-rev technique for FWD stick shifts should the driver inadvertently downshift to a level that results in FRONT wheelslip/skid.
And with the FWD Lancer I just watch my speed and am careful with braking pressure and acceleration speed and steering-making sure no steering action goes too quickly any particular direction while accelerating or braking, and I'm just fine.
But my original point was that I thought it was common knowledge that FWD beats RWD in snow, not necessarily does FWD beat AWD, but for sure it beats RWD.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Try "driver's with little or no experience driving on adverse roadbed conditions will be patently UNSAFE". Although I'd omit the patently.
I never got my old VW SuperBeetle RWD stuck in Alaska, and it would go up steep glaciated driveways like nothing else. :shades:
Those who live in cold climates need to do that.
Drive gently until you learn the limits of your vehicle and the traction conditions you're dealing with.
Repeat.
. . .and yes, I actually know the difference between AWD & 4WD.
I routinely pass AWD and RWD cars and trucks in the ditch. I have never gotten stuck in the snow in 16 years in South Dakota and 4 years in Rochester NY driving FWD. I did wind up in the ditch once in a RWD though - they are unsafe and should not be allowed on the road in slippery conditions.
wwest has had this anti FWD crusade for years - ignore it.
We also all know that being able to instantly decouple the transmission with the clutch does nothing but help in slippery conditions. Much easier to rock the car to get it moving for one thing.
BTW when I gas it around the corner in my FWD Accord (in the snow) the tail end actually starts to rotate. It is extremely easy to control and a ton of fun. Nice 4 wheel drift with the occasional opposite lock. And they say FWD doesn't do that! With RWD I would spin in circles.
I wouldn't want to drive RWD in NE Nevada at tall.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Perhaps you are indulging in a little poetic license here, (i've been known to myself at times) but seriously, what you just said is basically an impossibility unless the fr was on a gritty surface with lots of traction and the rear has stepped out onto a slippery portion of roadway. And let there be no misunderstanding, the ONLY way to get the rear to step out that much would be to already have enough road speed in the corner that centrifugal force would be acting on the rear of the car.
But if fr and rear are on equally slippery surfaces, a FWD car, accelerating, in a corner, the front end will grossly understeer. It is simply physics. The more duties you impose on a set of tires, the less able they can perform. Accelerating is one duty, cornering is an entirely separate and unrelated duty unto its own as is braking also.
For anyone reading this with FWD and don't feel very confident in a slippery corner, if you find yourself going wide (understeering) and you are accelerating a bit, let off and u will immediately feel the fr end tuck back into the original chosen steering line. But also, don't decelerate anymore than what is necessary to feel the car come back into line, cuz if you decelerate too much, now you are imposing that extra duty (braking) onto your steering axle. The more duties you ask of your tires, the less able they will be able to do any one of those duties.
I think VW's nifty little system to rev-match the engine on downshifts joins Nissan's similar system for upshifts in the category of answers to questions that nobody asked. I want LESS electronic crap doing unbidden stuff in my car, not more.
(BTW wwest, for 2012 all cars sold must have stability and traction control, which should eliminate some of these worries about inexperienced drivers in the snow for you)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Gosh I agree with u whole heartedly. That was exactly my first thought too when i read about VW's (I won't say 'nifty') electronic board of solenoids and chips that will be a 5000$ part cuz it won't have individually serviceable components.
I am getting mighty tired of them idiot-proofing (trying) cars instead of keeping car use reserved for those who can actually handle the heat in the kitchen at times.
FWD vehicles have the clear majority of the market today. If a FWD stick shift can be made more safe for the average driver then we are more likely to see a "stick" comeback.
And no, as anyone who reads these posts(***) should be able to discern TC has actually become a hindrance to/for driving a FWD or F/awd on adverse roadbed conditions.
*** Almost all modern day F/awd vehicles, and even some FWD vehicles, have a TC "off" function switch, and those that don't soon will have.
Don't know what to tell you except you should soon begin looking for an old rear engine RWD VW beetle, or the like.
"..Those who live in cold climates need to do that..."
Yes, indeed.
But until there is a regulation or law forcing such learning....?
But then a rain and oil slicked roadbed would...?
Yes, indeed, again.
How many clutches, as a percent, would you guess are out there on the public roads vs automatics...?
Let me guess, tire chains only on the front and 6 50lb bags of sand in the trunk.
You're not blaming the car, are ya? :P
The Sienna (FWD) isn't good in the snow - especially climbing steep slopes, because with the long wheelbase all the weight transfers to the rear axle. Couple that with a hyper-active traction control, and I have to turn that off and get some momentum to make it up my driveway.
Our Subaru laughs that off. Even slopes twice as steep are a breeze.
Not sure I agree with you here. The herd of American consumers only care how many stars any given model got from the NHTSA, or IIHS safety ratings if they are doing internet research. Either way, there is no measure of "snow traction" in those ratings.
So people won't take it into account when making their purchase decision.
As for traction/stability control "Off" buttons, 97% of Americans that have them in their cars won't even know where they are or what they do.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You mean you don't think FWD cars are patently unsafe either?
I just added the years up btw. It's been 12 years since I last owned a stick shift. Doesn't look like one is going to get added to the stable anytime soon either. Everything on our short list (today's short list, anyway), is a CVT or 6 speed automatic.
Everyone kept saying what a great pilot he was, but the most important decision a pilot makes is whether to fly at all. On that day, tragically, he simply made the wrong call.
With FWD - the right call is to stay at home. LOL
Or at least get snow tires. :P
So while it was true historically, today that's no longer the case.
No, not with today's automatics.
1. Lockup clutches in the 80's.
2. Real-time ATF line pressure control(***1) in the late 90's.
3. Computation capability allowed the use of a more robust lockup clutch in higher gears other than OD, ~2004ish.
4. The increased use of lockup clutches allowed efficiency reduction(***2) of the torque converter, lighter, smaller torque converter. ~2007ish.
5. 6(10), 7(12), 8(14) speed automatic transmissions. (xx) = lockup mode.
6. PDK/DFG "automatics", current.
7. And let's not overlook the coastdown fuel cut technique now in common use with automatic transmissions, ~2001.
Fuel flow to the engine is completely cut off and then the automatic transmission is sequentially downshifted as speed declines to keep the engine from stalling. Fuel cut is used until such a low speed is reached to make the technique non-viable. At which time a final upshift is commanded ("lurch forward") at the same time flow flow is restored. The transmission is then only shifted into 1st once/if the vehicle comes to a full and complete stop.
Modern day automatics can easily exceed the FE of a manual unless the manual is driven with a close eye, VERY close eye, to FE. I often skip gears in my 911/996 when driving casually....lazy.
I think many of these improvements to automatic transmissions came about due to the growing competitive use of CVT's. CVT's yielding absolutely STELLAR FE even compared to a stick operated with an eye to FE.
Once we begin to see CVT's robust enough to handle upwards of 250 HP the "standard" automatic use will wane precipitously.
***1: Still evolving, the Ford Edge now has a variable volume ATF line pressure pump.
***2: Brought about the use of "hill-Start" technique since the torque converters were no longer efficient enough at idle to hold the vehicle in place even on a slight incline.
If you can stand the horrible "shiftiness", continuous up/down shifting in order to have selected the most optimal gear ratio for the rapidly changing, SLIGHT changing, roadbed and terrain conditions. Shiftiness of the new 6(10) speeds in order to more closely match the CVT FE.
VW TDI's might be an interesting comparison. DSG is probably steps ahead of so called slush box automatics. Indeed their efficiency is up anywhere from 5 to 10 mpg !! (even as over all mpg is DOWN)
The lastest TDI's are rated EPA 30/42 mpg DSG AND 6 speed manual. (so far I have been disproved? !) Of course the other dirty secret they do not want you to see are the differences in gearing between an automatic and a manual. So while one might pine there is no difference to little difference anymore, there absolutely IS. It would seem that all we care about anymore is PERCEPTION. The realities anymore are just ...DETAILS!!??
During the break in phase (full compression comes to the fore between 30,000 to 60,000 miles) on a DSG, it is pretty easy to get 40-47 mpg. All I do reasonably is keep it under 92 mph. Since I do not drive a 6 speed manual side by side, I can not give you comparable figures. However, most folks who do drive manuals report better mpg. So in addition, there is no doubt in my mind if I DID drive them side by side, the range would be far higher, ergo the edge to the 6 speed manual.
Indeed even on www.fueleconomy.gov of people that report, the 6 speed manual STILL shows app 5.5 mpg combined GREATER than the DSG. The range also is probably telling : one is 36 to 52 mpg, the other is a range of 36-43 mpg. You'd probably be loathed to guess which is which. Again DSG is a vast improvement over the current slushbox designs and of course its own slushbox design.
"..of people that report..."
By definition a small sampling. My '01 911/996 got better than 25 MPH on the autobahn, at what for us here in the US would be EXTREME speeds. But if someone polled me about here in US and around town I would be embarrassed to admit the truth. Shifting a stick often enough to be in the optimal gear around town is a seriously TEDIOUS task. So I suspect, like me, most stick drivers ignore optimal shifting most of the time.
On the highway, sure, put it in 6th and keep it there for mile after mile.
Only as a reference point, what are the EPA estimates for the same car with a stick and one with an automatic. And personally I would count the DSG in the "automatic" column.
My Sienna's 5 speed has the coast-down fuel shutoff and indeed that thing gets amazing fuel efficiency for its size and engine output. I doubt a manual would be better, not to mention an auto is suited to that type of vehicle anyway.
Again I put the reference point in the post. And yes, again I would also call a DSG an automatic, even as it is a dual clutch pack sequential set up controlled by computer. :shades:
"..I would suspect that you would be half wrong about most stick drivers.."
Only half wrong...??
Why do you think automatics of one flavor or another dominate the market today..? IMMHO most people don't wish to bother with having to CONSTANTLY stir the stick. Since that is clearly true of the majority of drivers overall then why wouldn't the same ratio prevail for stick shift owners??
Why do you think so many automatics now come with sequential shifting capability, stearing wheel mounted paddle shifters yet. As for me, there are most definitely times that I quite thoroughly enjoy stirring the stick, but the majority of the time I just want to "leave the driving to us".
Toyota Tacoma 4X4 4L V6 6-speed manual 14/18.
Toyota Tacoma 4X4 4L V6 5-speed auto..... 16/20.
Infiniti G37 6-speed stick 17/25.
Infiniti G37 7-speed auto 19/27.
FE prize goes to...
Modern day automatic transmissions.
Way too many variables otherwise, driving style, geographic area, traffic density, tire wear/inflation, etc, etc, etc.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)