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And I take joy that my tranny can NEVER be tricked or fooled, no matter what i do, or decide in a moment's notice to not do, unlike the so-called modern day autos that in the same situation; react with a "Hmmmm, first you wanted to boot it fast so i downshifted for you (sorry i only went one gear, i realized later you actually wanted two) but then u quickly changed your mind...so I'm left trying to compute which gear do you really want? My makers tried to designed me to not take so much time as i try to decide this, but YOU were the one who was indecisive in your driving."
Yah right, as if driving on crowded public roadways is predictable all the time..
FWIW I intend to drive the much hated (by me) CVT soon. But it's in a Sube with paddle shifters that can preselect any of 6 (or was it more? i forget) locked in speeds. I am going to try to trick and fool the tranny in an example as I mockingly described above. I am going to drive along gently in drive. As i understand it, you can't, eg. paddle shift immediately to 3rd from 6th, but you don't have to move the console gear selector to a special slot, you just paddle shift. So i am going to try both, how fast does it downshift to 5th if i push it once. But also, if i bang bang bang, how long did it take and how did it react getting me to 3rd. Did i have to wait each gear before pressing it again to select the next lower cog (total pun as there are no cogs in a crappy CVT) or does it know that my bang bang bang meant i wanna get to 3rd and as fast as you can do it please.
Why did i refer the the CVT's as being crappy? Well...a number of reasons, but let's point out longevity for starters. The salesman touted 3 times in 15 minutes, as he interpreted my blasé reaction to CVT's, that the engineers have put a 180000 miles lifespan on the tranny. Like? So what? You think that is something to brag about? I didn't tell him that tho. I did ask if it was expensive to replace and he admitted it was. I then asked if it was rebuildable, and he said not yet but probably will be in years from now when you have 180001 miles on it. (of course he didn't say the one mile, but u get my point) I also didn't point out that apparently CVT's cost less to build than the other autos. So mfgrs are pushing them not only for FE numbers, but cuz it costs them less to mgf also. I asked him about servicing, i think he said every 60k. He didn't know the cost. Well Nissan's CVT have very restrictive service intervals...isn't it something like 36k and cost a LOT. I have heard 600 bucks??!!! And if you miss one or are late, that is their out on a wty claim.
Anyway, I'll post my findings after my drive in the Sube's CVT. It'll have to be more impressive than the impression the 08 Altima left with me. So what if Nissan extended the wty to 7 years and 100k miles...many people do that many miles in only 3 years. And others (like me) would run out of time before miles. If they REALLY want to warranty something that proves their confidence in it, don't put time restrictions as limiting as 7 measly years. How about 15 instead? And give me at least 200k miles. Now you got my attention..
Am I being unreasonable? No way, my manual tranny will go that far easily, and on the original clutch too.. And as an extra bonus, do it on only about 150 bucks worth of oil changes....and that's if they do it. I do it, so will be a cake walk in costs.
Other Nissans may be different but I doubt it.
Edmunds estimates that the labor cost of doing this in a Philly zip code is $1.06.
link
On a 5 speed manual, if I do not get a minimum of 400,000 miles (dual mass clutch) I will be almost EXTREMELY disappointed (@ 153,000 miles now). But even if I don't, it will cost app 600 to 700 to R/R with an upgraded single mass stronger and more durable clutch. For that same vehicle I have heard real world figures of a min of 2,500 to 3,500 to R/R the automatic slush box.
And my impression was reinforced in the thread about Nissan extending the wty period on CVT's that had been failing early.
But also, I am not sure about yours either..
I think we both agree in the longevity potential of most manuals if driven properly.
Apparently many autos will last over 180k miles. But many more don't.
The 180 figure was the engineer's claim for Subaru's CVT.
And i think we are agreeing that autos cost more to R/R, whether rebuild or new.
Apparently that Sube CVT is around 6 grand. In my books that is excessive cost to be exposed to in 'only' 180000 miles. And i read somewhere recently that the dual clutch setup in VW's are around 5 to 6k?
This could also be correlated to a depreciative loss factor. The original owner may not drive that same car 180000 miles, but somebody somewhere down the road, be it the 2nd or 3rd owner, will. That will cost each owner of that car depreciation levels that are higher than average.
Trannys should never cost more than engines to replace...IMoftennotveryHO.
And if u want an auto, fine, and if it doesn't last as long as manuals, fine with me also (I'll withhold my; I told u so comment) but at least normal old fashioned autos were a 1200 to 1500 rebuild and 2500 new.
Back late in the last century Toyota's transaxle supplier came up with a new techinque to improve FE. "Abolish" the old ATF line pressure control system, fixed pressure relief and pressure holding/sustaining accummulator, in favor of a new "real-time" ATF line pressure supply system.
The fly in this ointment became the fact that these new tranny's could not provide, quickly provide, enough line pressure to support a quick, sequential, gear change with the engine at or near idle. The 99-00 RX300, the initial adopters of this new technique, began having transaxle failures in as little as 30-40,000 miles.
What to do, oh, what to do.
First, lighten the load on the tranny, eliminate the 4WD capability via revising the VC formulation so it always remains "flaccid", eliminate the rear LSD option...and finally, revise the firmware such that the "real time" line pressure is always held at a higher level, the gear type ATF oil pump is now ALWAYS working against a more firm pressure relief "spring".
The result...
'01 through the end of the RX300 model run that need ATF drain and flush procedures every 40,000 miles rather the "infinity" duration stated in the owners manual.
So,...the RX330..
Uses DBW to delay the onset of rising engine torque for whatever duration it takes the tranny to complete ANY shift. Mostly only noticeable by the driver upon a re-acceleration sequence. Entering a freeway via an acceleration ramp, lift the gas pedal momentarily to match that opening in traffic flow, now accelerate back up to the traffic flow speed..
What, WHAT, where'd my engine go...?
When you initially lifted your foot slightly from the gas pedal the transaxle upshifted because your action implied you wanted to enter cruise mode. Now, just as that upshift completes, you decided otherwise. The ATF line pressure has been exhausted doing the upshift, the engine is at idle, and now you must wait for the buildup of line pressure before the downshift sequence can begin.
In about '08 they provided a firmware revision that "watched" the rate of gas pedal release. A "slow" release implied a wish to enter cruise mode but a fast release implied a need for coastdown, engine compression braking, and thus the tranny would remain in the current low gear just previously used with/under acceleration.
Alleviated only some of the 1-2 second re-acceleration downshift delay/hesitation situations.
By 2010, industry wide adoption of the "real-time" ATF line pressure control system.
Now everyone gets to "enjoy" a few of those heart-stopping "where'd my engine go" episodes.
Doesn't that overall cost pretty much add up to replacing the automatic at 200,000 miles....???
Labor and parts costs plus the nuisance of 4 visits to the shop.
So I am not sure where you come up with the math that 600-700 (includes labor)= 2,500 to 3,500? (includes labor)
I know now that you are purposely misrepresenting the posts.
If he's going to the dealer for service, well... who knows. :shades:
The bad Nissan CVTs that I remember are the ones on the Murano.
I miss having a manual but longevity or ease of maintenance isn't a factor in choosing or not choosing one.
CVTs have fewer moving parts so they should last forever in normal service. My guess is that almost all manufacturers are getting them in some of their models.
The cost of replacing an automatic transaxle, assuming putting in a rebuilt, since new is not usually an option, I estimated to be $5-6000.
My 95 Accord didn't have any clutch issues until over 200k. And that was probably because my then 16 yr old son was driving it.
My 06 Accord has over 86k and everything is just fine. Original brakes and tires too.
If I only got 80K out of mine, I would be really ticked about it!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
But, automatics have gotten significantly more complicated and vastly more expensive to repair. The days of pulling out a powerglide in your driveway and doing a $200 bench rebuild are long gone! And since quite a few cars (Honda V6s for one) have had significant reliability issues, along with 4-5K replacement costs, the technology war hasn't always favored the AT!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
But they are just more fun to drive! I told my son who is 14, and who is someone I hope to teach how to shift in a couple of years, that it's like unlocking an advanced level on a video game. Maybe not a good analogy, but....
Also, they are cheaper to manufacture, tend to last longer, and tend to be cheaper to repair.
Do new 6 speed autos really cost as much as $4000 to replace?!! Yikes.
Hope much would a manual cost, do you think? Let's say on a Hyundai Sonata. Is there any way to look that up?
and more..
Appreciated your post, and will feel safer (by default) in sharing the roads with your young man when he masters the stick. Just wanting to master it gets lots of credit from me.
As for manual trannys and their drivers, I believe across the board they are safer than drivers in otherwise identical cars with autotragic transmissions. My sixteen year old son has already mastered the stick and absolutely refuses to even consider buying a car with a slushbox or even one with those stupid flippy-dippy paddles, he wants one with three pedals under the dash. Period, full stop, the end.
Funny thing, my (then) thirteen year old daughter cornered me shortly after declaring her brother "competent" with a stick and said, "Daddy, when I turn fifteen, you're going to teach me how to drive a stick too; right." It was not a question.
I don't know, maybe it's a New Hampshire thing, but in my son's circle of friends (girls included), nearly half of them can already stir their own, those that cannot have expressed a sincere interest in learning, and of those that can, the vast majority prefer driving with a clutch than without.
If you know how to use a clutch, and you're not racing your car at the track, you can count on getting 175-200K miles (and even more in the Hondas I have owned) out of a clutch in my experience.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A good real world test of that would be to ask your insurance agent to compare premiums on a make/model that comes with both options. I don't think you'll find any difference.
The subject has come up on the net before.
Automatic or Manual Cars: Which is Safer? (Safer Motoring)
In the trucking world, automatics may have the safety edge:
Side by Side: Manual vs. automatic truck transmissions (etrucker.com)
Or maybe they just aren't any safer than automatics.
For sure, an easy question to any insurance company would be what is the premium difference between a (any example but...) for example Honda Civic manual vs automatic.
So for example, I do know that with a manual transmission population of 20% (hard to even find that) (defacto 80% automatic) the fatality and accident rates have dropped precipitiously and are @ the LOWEST levels and rates in all the recorded history. :shades: Now either way, that has to be a GUUD thang.
A properly driven stick shift will last as long as the engine. I have had two automatics a taurus - tranny went out at about 135k and an Odyssey - tranny was starting to go when I sold it at 145k.
Stick will outlast an automatic any day - plus it costs $1,000 less to begin with.
As far as mpg look at Consumer reports. Every car they test with both stick and automatic is slower and uses more gas with the automatic. Even the fancy DSG's. EPA favors automatics.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2008/10/save-gas-and-money- -with-a-stick-shift-10-08/overview/manual-vs-auto-ov.htm
I posted the above once before, but here it is again for those that did not see it. No comparison between sticks and autos.
I still have a '92 Honda Accord EX 4-door that I bought in 1993 with 8k miles on it. I got almost 170k miles on the original clutch and it has almost 210k miles on that replacement clutch (car has just over 380k miles on it). It only gets driven on weekends now, but the shifter/clutch still work great even after 19 years and 400k miles! A valve job around 290k is the only engine work it's ever needed, too.
I will admit, those miles are 85-90% highway, which is a lot less wear on the clutch. But it's still pretty amazing...
My daily driver, a 2006 Mazda3 s 5-door, needed a new clutch at 73k miles...but it only cost me $200 for the clutch kit and my mechanic put it for free while he was doing about $1000 in repairs to the A/C...with labor it would've been about $450, tops.
But if I had the optional 5-speed automatic instead of a manual, it would cost well over $2500 to replace it with a new unit. And they don't seem to last too far beyond 125k or so in the Mazda3 s.
I've always thought insurance companies should offer a discount for manual transmissions as a theft-deterrent, if nothing else! I've read countless news stories over the years of foiled carjackings because the moronic felon couldn't drive a manual!
We should at least get the same discount they offer for a "passive disabling device". Not to mention that a manual-transmission vehicle will cost them less in the event of a total loss than the same car with an automatic! I just thought of that! I'll have to mention that to the folks at Amica and see what they have to say about it...
Although not nearly as easy to quantify, drivers of manual transmissions tend to be safer, more alert, defensive drivers in general. By it's very nature, driving a manual requires a lot more driver involvement and attention. When approaching a red light or STOP sign, we don't have the luxury of mindlessly plowing into the car stopped ahead of us...we're preparing to stop hundreds of yards ahead of time.
But an argument could be made to the opposite, I suppose. I've been driving for almost 21 years and always had a manual. But the main reason I chose a manual in my first few cars was for performance! The difference between a manual and automatic in a late 80s Honda and early 90s Honda Civic was huge! An '88 Civic (92hp 1.5L) with 4-speed automatic took over 12 seconds to hit 60mph, with 5-speed manual it was in the low 9-second range.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
(but can't vouch for accuracy)
1- country of build(1 is US, 2 is Canada, 3 mexico)
2- Manufacturer
3- sub company (like pontiac and buick to GM)
4 thru 7- can be different for each company but they show factory options such a tranny type and original paint
8- engine
9- check digit
10- year
11- plant code(which plant vehicle was built at)
12 thru 17- specific vehicle production (serial) number 0% 0 Votes
I don't buy those numbers...The old '93 Accord did 200k on the stock clutch (minus the hydraulics, but that is a Honda issue - didn't sound like the auto trans were doing better), the '96 Contour had 180k w/an uncountable number of HPDE/Autocross days on it and the stock clutch, the '91 Isuzu Impulse had 120k on the stock clutch when it got squished by a bus, and the '93 Civic had like 220k on the stock clutch and was fine when it was given away (to someone who drove it for another year and wrecked it).
Political rants do not offset real data. One way or the other.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yet real-world it doesn't come close. See Dudley's link - you gain a couple of mpg.
Don't most dealers round up to a certain amount of time, half hour maybe? I don't think they'll touch your car for less than that.
I think Edmunds figures it'll get checked when you do the normal oil and filter service and other inspections and that runs over $100.
People would slllllliiiiipppp the bejesus out of their clutches when they took off. They would shift too early and slip it between gears. I would sit there and cringe!
And where you drive has everything to do with clutch life too.
A person who lives in a flat state like Montana and does 95% freeway driving will never wear out a clutch as oppossed to a delievery person in Seattle or San Francisco.
And, plekto automatic transmissions often last well beyond 150,000 miles!
Frequent fluid changes and driving conditions will make a huge difference in the life of an automatic.
I recommend that readers avoid CVTs unless they are remaking THX-1138, in which case, go for the CVT in those little THX-1138 Priuses, by all means.
Cars with manuals are absolutely getting a separate column in the actuarial tables. A simple example is that of cars with manual-only option , that aspect along with every other aspect is included in the insurance company's calculations. and cheaper rates for manual transmission vehicle owners, for both theft & collision, I will bet you $2, ask your insurance-agent buddies!
of course, you can't deselect the BUYER/driver from the actuarial tables. What the insurance companies are measuring and BANKING is the fact that the manual transmission drivers are statistically better drivers, and it's not the transmission that makes them that way. The manual-transmission preferers are better drivers with or without a manual transmission! Yes! Can I get a witness?
For me I hope the future of the Manual transmission is a GS or base 6-speed corvette. Z06 is probably a stretch/overkill for me, and I'd rather spend the extra $ on a VW TDI.
manual-shift.
Oh - we forgot one other thing about automatics - resale value is horrendous because any dealership or savvy buyer will deduct the price of a new transmission from their negotiating price if it has the original one at over 100K. Would you buy a car for full price with 100-120K on the original automatic? I know people who have done that , including myself, for vehicles with manual. My last manual transmission vehicle had 320K on it when I bought it. Dropped a new clutch and transmission(actual brand new, not rebuilt) for $1100 in it to be safe and forgot about it. Drove it for three and a half years with zero issues. It finally died at 400K miles, but not because of the drive-train - the electrical systems simply wore out after 20+ years.
Also, manuals sell incredibly quickly, used. The pent-up demand is such that manuals for sale by a private party is rare. You can't hardly push a Volvo with an automatic off your property. But if yours has manual, you've got a dozen calls in the first three days, guaranteed. Same with, say, a Cadillac CTS. Automatics everywhere and nobody wanting to buy one. But manual? You'll get callers from out of state.
And if you have something mythical like a manual equipped Mercedes or BMW, you have people asking to buy it when you're not even selling it.
Maybe they last so long for me because I mostly drove a stick for 17 years before these two and that taught me how to drive any tranny.
Of course, now y'all have jinxed me.
There is an irony here tho on the Matrix. Apparently they had a very poorly designed std tranny that failed almost like clockwork with the vast major of owners, at 60k miles. And wow, they were expensive. Most dealers were aging between 2500 to 4500 bucks, to put in a new tranny that also was no dif and was going to fail at that 60k mark again. Also, coincidently, i have read that the 6 sp in the XRS model, didn't fail, but the clutches did! Most just 2 to 3 thousand miles after wty exp at 30k. There were so many that i'm confident we can rule out driver error with an impressively large number of those failures.
But as most informed stick owners know, that is the exception and far from being the rule. Oh...he is another irony (readers are going to think i am down on Toyota tonight, but not so) i just remembered a model of performance Toyota, can't recall the name...mental burp here, I wanna say Celica but if not it was the Supra i think. But not positive if it was the Supra...i think it was. The AWD Sups had 5 sp manual failures quite prematurely. Maybe too much torque from the turbo urge and AWD hook up?
- Always protect the parking pawl with the Parking Brake.
- re and re new fluid before they say you have to
- and never use a gear to change direction prior to coming to a full stop, even if you are fairly gentle on the throttle after.
- don't use the throttle to speed it to slip into gear.
- a 5th too really but applies to a manual also, when tranny very cold, don't ask a lot of it till it is up to temp