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Bring facts to the table for discussion, or don't bother showing up.
Heresay and myth is not acceptable.
Accidents mount as Ford idles plants
By Sara Nathan, USA TODAY
At least three people have died and four have been injured while riding in vehicles with recalled Firestone tires since the recall was announced two weeks ago.
On Aug. 9, Firestone recalled size P235/75R-15 Wilderness tires made in Decatur, Ill., and all ATX and ATX II tires of that size because the treads can come off. Most of those tires are on Ford Explorer sport-utility vehicles.
But replacement of the 6.5 million tires is going slowly. Firestone says more than 500,000 have been changed so far.
Ford Motor said Monday that it will halt production at three truck plants for more than a week to free up 70,000 tires for use as replacements. Goodyear and Michelin say they have increased tire production by 250%.
But since the recall began:
Garry Lynn Meek, 56, a former police chief from Farmersville, Calif., and his granddaughter, Amy Lynn Meek, 13, died Aug. 16 when the tread peeled off the left rear tire on their Explorer while they were traveling home after a vacation in Wyoming, a spokesman for the Wyoming Department of Transportation said.
Meek's wife, Jeanette, also was injured. Amy's parents and sibling were in a vehicle following the Explorer and saw the accident happen, the spokesman said.
Gary Steven Haas, 47, a Florida pediatric surgeon, died Aug. 15 in an accident 70 miles east of Lubbock, Texas, after the tread came off the right rear tire of his Explorer, Texas trooper Heath Parker said. The SUV rolled three times. Haas, who wasn't wearing a seatbelt, was thrown from the vehicle.
His son, Granville Haas, 19, who was wearing his seatbelt, was treated for minor injuries.
Christy McKinney was critically injured Aug. 11 when the tread on her left rear tire peeled off while she was driving on Interstate 40 near Alma, Ark. Her Explorer went off the highway and down an embankment and rolled over twice, said Robin Kuykendall of the Arkansas State Police. McKinney, 21, was thrown from the SUV. Her 7-month-old son was found wedged between the front passenger seat and the door with cuts and bruises.
Joshua Miller, 22, was in critical condition Aug. 15 after the tread came off his right rear tire. His Ford Bronco flipped four times and landed in traffic on Interstate 40 near Conway, Ark., a spokesman for the state troopers said. Miller has been upgraded to satisfactory condition in Baptist Hospital in Little Rock.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which is investigating Firestone tires, has reports of at least 62 deaths and 100 injuries from accidents involving all sizes of Wilderness, ATX and ATX II tires through Aug. 9.
In a lawsuit filed Monday, the Center for Auto Safety asked that all sizes of those tires be recalled, regardless of where they were made.
But Ford and Firestone say their data point only to problems with the tires that have been recalled.
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www.fourwheeler.com/newtrucks/ptoty/98/pastwinners.html
Why is the Firestone tire issue being discussed here?
Question #2:
Who in their right mind wouldn't just go to the local Sam's/BJ's/Costco, etc..... and get a new set of tires for ~$400.00, if they new their tires might explode at any time? I'm assuming if you can afford an SUV, you can afford new tires.
Damn the "cut and paste boy"! Just the links, nothing but the links so help you God.
Hmmmmm......check out the "Major Recalls" section.
"Oh, what a feeling!"
Toyota doesn't agree to settlement
Toyota fights huge recall over emission equipment
Federal air-quality officials to seek court order
07/10/99
By John O'Dell / Los Angeles Times
Federal officials are preparing to seek a court order Monday to force Toyota Motor Sales USA, the nation's best-selling Asian car maker, to replace or repair emission-control computers on 2.2 million vehicles.
The U.S. subsidiary of Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. says it will fight the recall, which would be one of the largest automobile recalls ever. If the company is forced to replace the $250 computers, the cost could hit $550 million.
No one is arguing that the vehicles themselves are causing emissions problems. But federal and California air-quality officials allege that the diagnostic computers don't work properly on most U.S.-marketed Toyota and Lexus cars and trucks made between January 1995 and June 1997.
The U.S. Justice Department action follows Toyota's rejection late Thursday of a proposed settlement. It is believed to be the first time an automaker has rejected a federal offer to settle charges involving allegedly faulty emissions systems.
Neither side will disclose terms of the settlement proposal, but it is believed that Justice Department negotiators sought payments totaling more than $100 million.
The U.S. distribution and marketing arm of Honda Motor Co. settled a similar case in May 1998, agreeing to pay $17 million in penalties. Federal and California regulators said 1.6 million Honda cars were equipped with improperly functioning emissions control computers. Honda also agreed to run special emissions checks on the vehicles and to extend the emission system warranties.
The threatened Toyota recall is part of an escalating war between the automaker and air pollution regulators that began in 1997, when the California Air Resources Board told Toyota that its previously approved emission-sensing system no longer met state standards.
Toyota claims that the computers met all the rules that were in place when they were certified.
The issue centers on the way the state has tested the computers' ability to sense fuel vapor leaks and to alert the driver via a "check engine" warning light on the dashboard.
All Toyota and Lexus vehicles built during the 30-month period are covered except the Land Cruiser and its luxury Lexus RX 450 and RX 470 twins. Like other big sport-utility vehicles, they are exempt from the pollution-control rules governing other cars and trucks because they weigh more than 3 tons.
When the Toyota system was initially accepted by the California agency for use on Toyota and Lexus vehicles in 1995, the approval was based on laboratory tests that used computer simulations.
But when the state got around to running actual driving tests in 1997, inspectors found that the computers did not detect all of the intentionally caused emissions leaks and that the warning light didn't always light up. The on-board diagnostic computers, state investigators reportedly have told Toyota, don't check for fuel vapor leaks frequently enough.
Toyota has insisted that the state changed the rules in the middle of the game and is attempting to force the automaker to fix a problem that really doesn't exist.
"We don't think that any regulatory agency should try to change regulations after the fact," Toyota spokesman Joe Tetherow said. "Our vehicles comply with the regulations as they were originally written."
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TOYOTA RECALLS 800,000 CARS
Toyota is recalling 797,707 vehicles made between July 1995 and August 1998. The recall affects 10 models, most available only in Japan. But one model is also sold in the United States and Britain as the Lexus GS300.
The models may have faulty front suspension arms, which may weaken or fail because of excess friction, the automaker said.
There have been no injuries as a result of the defect, Toyota said in a statement.
http://www.mrtraffic.com/recall.htm
Do you REALLY want me to post the recalls, TSB's and defects from EACH compact pickup for the last ten years? Do you REALLY want me to?
lol....it wont be pretty. Go ahead, add them up man.
The Tacoma's interior accommodations also leave something to be desired. Put simply, the seats in the Tacoma are the worst we've ever sampled. When Edmund's staff members are dissatisfied with a vehicle's seats, we typically refer to them as lawn chairs. Well, our Tacoma drivers were wishing they had lawn chairs in this particular Toyota. The Tacoma's seats are so mushy and unsupportive that someone on our staff dubbed them "beanbags." If I were a beanbag manufacturer, I would be offended.
The rear seats are worse still. Two pieces of foam no wider than a pair of shoeboxes constitute the bottom cushions of the forward-facing rear seats. Two other pieces of foam, slightly smaller and less thick than the aforementioned articles, are mounted directly to the back of the cab to serve as the rear passengers' backrest. Scott Jacobs, Edmund's daredevil photo editor, absolutely refused to climb into the backseat of the Tacoma. When yours truly attempted the feat, I found myself so cramped and claustrophobic that I was ready to climb out of the Tacoma's rear window.
Did we mention that there isn't much room in the rear of the Toyota Tacoma Xtracab? There isn't; nor is there a third door to make climbing in and out of the rear of the truck any easier. In today's three- and four-door pickup market, a two-door extended-cab model seems woefully outdated.
If you overlook the uncomfortable seats, cramped rear accommodations and dearth of rear doors, the Tacoma has friendly, usable interior. The controls are straightforward and easy to see, large outside mirrors provide drivers with excellent visibility, and the Tacoma's fabrics and plastics are uniformly good. We are also fans of the high-quality stereo with CD player that has very good sound quality and reception for a factory unit. Regrettably, this isn't enough to make us want to spend much time sloshing around the Tacoma's interior."
"The Toyota Tacoma might have the right image, and it certainly has the right work truck/weekend SUV credentials. Unfortunately, the Tacoma cannot haul its passengers in comfort, due to its unsatisfactory seats, nor can it make the most of its extended cab layout, since it has no rear passenger access doors. We think that these elements take the Tacoma out of the running for an everyday people-moving machine.
The Tacoma's biggest demerit, however, is its price. Our test truck had a sticker that approached the $30,000 mark. We think that a $28,500 price tag is much too high for a compact pickup, even for one with a Toyota badge. Edmund's long-term Ford Ranger stickers for $5,000 less than the Tacoma, and has more equipment, more attractive styling, and a usable rear seat. It has also proven to be very reliable for our first 10,000 miles of ownership. Is the promise of Toyota reliability worth five grand? We don't think so. Give us the Ranger and the extra $5,000. We'll put the money toward the purchase of a Wave Runner, thank you. "
Quoted from: http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/whitmore/99Toyota.Tacoma.Limited.4WD.TRD.rt.html
I'm done for now, I'll see how many other "facts" I can dig up for you later, though.
I'm simply presenting facts. That seems to be the only thing that matters here, right? Don't get all defensive when I present the information that you seem to relish. It seems to me that YOU guys are now "going crazy". I can almost picture you pointing and clicking furiously. LOL!
By the way, 1997 was three years ago, not ten. If I recall, most of those trade-rag articles cited were from 1998, why can't I cite facts from 1997. Did the truck change that much since then? If so, what was wrong with it that needed changing? Aren't they perfect in every way? What's there to improve?
http://edmunds.com/edweb/kim/00.dodge.dakota.rt.html
Sounds like a pretty good UNBIASED review.
Here is a COMPLETE list of the TSB's, Defect Investigations, and Safety Recalls for the Toyota pickup, Chevy s-10, Ford Ranger, and Dodge Dakota from the years 1989-2000. Enjoy.
Defect Investigations 1989-2000
Ford Ranger - 20
Dodge Dakota- 14
Chevy S10 - 51
Toyota Tacoma - 2
Safety Recalls 1989-2000
Ford Ranger- 32
Dodge Dakota - 28
Chevyy S10 - 47
Toyota Tacoma - 6
Technical Service Bulletins 1989-2000
Ford Ranger -2,279(yes, 2,279)
Dodge Dakota- 940
Chevy S10 -448
Toyota Tacoma - 150
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So there you have it. All data is factual, and very telling. This is NOT "subjective".
A trucks reliability and build quality is NOT "subjective".
Not all trucks are built the same, as you can plainly see.
Here is the hard link:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
It's doesn't surprise me one bit that it got 4wheeler of the year in 97.
http://www.thecomplaintstation.com/t/toyota_toc.htm
http://www.theautochannel.com:8080/news/date/19961017/news02244.html
Although the compact Tacoma XtraCab itself is not completely new, the Toyota Racing Development (TRD) suspension and locking rear differential package is. The TRD Off-Road Package offers oversized fender flares, alloy wheels, 31-inch tires, Bilstein shocks, slightly softer spring rates, and an electromechanical, button-actuated rear locking differential, all for $1,690.
Our Surfside Green test unit came with the 3.4-liter, dual-overhead cam, 24-valve engine and five-speed manual transmission. The Tacoma came factory-equipped with the lowest axle gears of the test: 4.10:1. It was this combination of excellent gearing (First gear for the factory five-speed is 3.83:1) that made testers comment about how readily the Tacoma jumped off the line. In fact, during track testing, the Tacoma was substantially faster than the others, both loaded and unloaded (see page 30). Tract ion came courtesy of a more aggressive tread in the 31x10.50 Goodyear Wrangler three-stage GSA. We found it supplied surprisingly good cornering power on pavement, with plenty of potential for aired-down trail running.
As well as the Tacoma performed on the track, it was on the trail where the premium import seemed most comfortable. Best-in-class ground clearance, the most aggressive tread of the bunch, and a crawl ratio of better than 40:1 made the Tacoma everyone' s choice for hill climbs and steep backside descents. Even our resident auto-tranny diehards had to admit that the lively throttle response, sure-grip clutch, and built-to-work gearing meshed together as well as any championship-caliber team. In each perf ormance-related category of our test, the Toyota won.
It's not often that our collection of testers agree on anything (in fact, never), but this year's Pickup Truck of the Year was a unanimous decision. Praises relating to the TRD suspension mentioned its ability to control rutted, seriously choppy terra in better than any other vehicle we'd driven. One tester went so far as to note that during a few moments of an effortless dry-wash run, it seemed the spirit of Ivan Stewart had taken over his body. This is a truck that can go slow or go fast, on pavement or off.
Ultimately, in addition to a strong engine, good tires, and supremely tuned suspension, the clutch defeat switch (the only one in a truck sold in the US.), lever-operated transfer case, and pushbutton locking rear differential were the icing on a toug h-truck cake. Although you have to pay a premium for a premium package, the TRD Tacoma, dollar for dollar, is the best on- and off-highway compact package (maybe of any truck) we've seen. This truck has features the others just don't offer, and they all w ork. And that's why it's our 1998 Pickup Truck of the Year.
"The Tacoma handled the rough stuff better than any vehicle we have driven"
---4Wheeler Magazine
End result: Toyota makes the most reliable compact pickup. You've presented the FACTS. What else is there to discuss on this point? Does that mean it can never fail? Not by a long shot! It's still overpriced and uncomfortable, though, so is it really the BEST compact pickup? I don't know, I guess that's up to the individual to decide. The BEST vehicle is still a subjective issue; a mere matter of perception.
Is your assertion that no other truck is capable of providing excellent service and reliability? I would strongly disagree with that.
For the 5k I saved on a bigger, better (for me) Dakota, I'd rather buy a nice trailer and a new 4WD ATV to use for off roading. I guarantee it will go places a Toyota or Dodge will ever see.
BTW, Dakota is NOT a compact. What size V8's are they putting in the Tacoma?
If you prefer the larger size of the Dodge and the v8, more power to you.
What gets me is the heresay and myths that get told in forums such as this.
And I garauntee you that your Dodge was not 5 grand less than a Tacoma. Tacoma prices have been reduced since 98.
Is the Toyota the most reliable pickup made? Yes.
This can't be disputed. Are they perfect trucks? No. No truck is.
From right here on Edmunds:
Dakota reg cab 2dr 4x4 = $15, 769
Tacoma Limited 4x4 = 22, 610
Price difference = $6841
These are base prices, using Edmunds' "True Market Value" figures.
Granted, this is sort of comparing apples to oranges, BUT even you can see that its quite easy to "build" a Tacoma that has a list price that's MUCH more than $5000 higher than a Dakota (although not exactly similar). Check it out yourself!
BTW- reducing Tacoma prices has not helped Tacoma sales has it????
On the other side of the coin, Tacomas are pretty reliable and MAY be good off-roaders if equipped with the TRD package.
My '95 Tacoma was such a piece of crap that I was able to convince Toyota to swap a new T100 for it after only 4 months. It was in the shop at least once every two weeks.
This is such a classic example of Toyota owner arrogance. They assume that their toyotas are the best, and the only reason anyone else would challenge them is because of an inferiority complex. Believe me, the last time I saw the interior of a Tacoma the word "quality" was about the furthest thing from my mind.
As per post #397"pertinent information"
Spoog: Did you ever consider the FACT that Ford, Chevy and Dodge sell 2-5 times as many trucks as Toyota? That is why there are more problems,relatively speaking....Volume!!!!!
Also ,they lowered the price $5000 bones because they couldn't sell those so called "best trucks" few people want them.Think about what you post before you waste space on this forum...
Spoog: Cut and paste boy..
Allen-
While there are loyal Tacoma owners like you and Allknowing out there, I would submit there are many more folks like me out there who remember when Toyota trucks were VASTLY superior to the competition and not just "more reliable". It looks like Tacoma sales figures might just support my position.
Toyota has succeeded in making the compact truck market a real competition, when they could have stuck with a proven formula and been able to corner the market.
When the Tacoma is replaced in a year or two, lets see if Toyota is able to recover some lost buyers by producing a compact pickup that is worthy of a Toyota label. They did it with the Tundra, killing the T100. Now they need to dump the Tacoma.
It's just amusing how many hours you guys spend trying to find any bad press on the Tacoma that you can find. All I can tell you is the fact that, if quality is your main requirement in a small truck, the Toyota is the leader. If price, size, etc. are your main requirements, another truck may be better for you.
IMHO, the quality of American trucks is much better than it used to be. The quality gap would be much greater today had Toyota continued to improve their trucks rather than decontent in favor of profit. Toyota will continue to lose market share unless they kill the damn Tacoma and once again demonstrate their ability to build the best truck! They did it before, and they COULD do it again.
I personally have nothing against any truck. I still maintain that satisfaction can come from any of them. When I buy, I look at all the factors that concern me, make an assessment, and make a purchase.
I've got an idea. Why don't we do something useful with this topic. How about a rating scale for a potential buyer. We can come up with several categories and rate each truck within the SPECIFIC categories. One could then buy on their most important category or decide where to give and take.
Possible categories:
-Build quality
-Reliability
-Interior asthetics
-Interior seating capacity
-Exterior (beauty)
-Best off-road performance
-Best on-road performance
-Payload/towing capacities
Let's put all the facts to work and maybe come up with something that holds up to a typical example of each manufacturer (assume there is no lemon in the bunch).
Beyond that, it's mostly faith. Hence, the extended warranty.
-bild quality - Tacoma
-Reliability - Tacoma
-Interior asthetics- subjective(unless you factor in defects and parts falling off)
- inside room- Dodge Dakota
Exterior (beauty)- purely subjective, no right answer
-Best off-road performance - Toyota Tacoma TRD
-Best on-road performance - Toyota Tacoma TRD with factory superchargher/ For 2wd, Dodge DAkota R/T
-Payload/towing capacities - Toyota offers the highest standard payload of compact pickups.
For towing, I would go with the Dodge Dakota due to the wider wheelbase and the v8.
Tacoma is also rated as a 3/4 ton truck, not a half ton.
http://www.fourwheeler.com/newtrucks/ptoty/98/tech.html
Ford's 4.0-liter overhead-valve V-6 gave our Regular Cab Ranger plenty of off-the-line motivation with 168 lb.-ft. of rear-wheel torque at 2500 rpm. Mazda's 3.0-liter/five-speed manual transmission gave the Regular Cab B-truck the slowest 0-60 time, but the best fuel economy of the group. Although the middle-sized V-6 of the group, the Toyota 3.4-liter DOHC 24-valve V-6 pulled all the way through the torque curve like most small-blocks.
The Ford five-lug 8.8-inch rearend comes standard with the 4.0-lite/five-speed auto combo. Leaf springs and 3.73:1 axle gears are rated to carry 1,180 pounds. Mazda's 7.5-inch rearend is standard with the 3.0-liter V-6. Not surprisingly, our ride-quality vastly improved with 12 bags of landscape rock in the compact's bed.
Toyota's TRD Tacoma comes with the only factory offered rear locking differential on any (full-size or compact) pickup. We found it a huge asset for trail adventures.
FORD & MAZDA TOYOTA
Ford's new compact frontend uses F-150-style short- and long-arm IFS, with torsion bars. The setup offers big gains on pavement--but not without trail sacrifices.
The new Pulse-Vacuum Hub (PVH) used exclusively on compact Fords and Mazdas allows for true in-cab-controlled shift-on-the-fly capability.
Toyota's double A-arm/coilover frontend handles pavement cornering and trail flex with equal skill. We like the six-lug axles and big-caliper front discs.
Copyright © 1999 Petersen Publishing L.L.C. All rights reserved.
It's our assumption that pickups are made and bought, at some point, to do work. That's why we run our PTOTY test on the track and trail, with beds loaded and unloaded--and separate from sport-utilities, which we regard as primarily made to carry people and their gear.
After weighing each truck at a commercial scale, we subtract that amount from the factory-rated Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) to arrive at an actual maximum payload number. We run track testing with truck beds both empty and with half their calculated payload, this year using 35-pound bags of landscaping rock. In this case, the Ford and Mazda each ran with 16 bags, the Toyota with 18. We think it's valuable to see how each truck performs when carrying a load; that's why they have a bed. For a significant portion of the rest of the test, we run the trucks at half maximum payload. This also allows us to see how mileage is affected, as well as how the engine and chassis react.
At each stage of our test, drivers rotated from truck to truck during a variety of terrain changes--recording comments and scoring each truck as they go.
In the end, each tester scores each truck in 38 different categories with "Mechanical" accounting for 25 percent of the book total;
"Trail Performance" accounting for 30 percent; "Highway Performance" 20 percent; "Interior" 15 percent; and "Exterior" 10 percent. Each logbook accounts for 80 percent of overall scoring, with the remaining 20 percent centered around our nine "Empirical" tests you'll find in chart form: Ground Clearance, Noise at 55 mph, Payload, and so forth.
Finally, we've printed point totals so readers may weight their own "paper test," awarding points for those aspects of a truck they find most valuable. Some may appreciate interior or highway feel more than we have. Change the percentages around and choose your own winner. Of course, that certainly won't be as much fun (or difficult) as running around the countryside with a group of brand new four-bys.
--M. Williams
Everyone's badmouthing Ford for the Firestone issue but yet in the Boston Globe today there is a full page ad from the CEO of bridgestone/firestone guess what his name is Masatoshi Ono they are airfreighting replacement tires from Japan first shipment will arrive on Aug 23rd.
Mitsubishi has admitted to almost 20 years of hiding defect and customer complaints. The article I read said a person from Mistu said its not uncommon for a Japanese company to hide complaints and defects from public and government. It hurts the companies reputation and shows lack of workmanship.. I wonder.... Hmm...