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Comments
Forget the category rating thing.....I should have seen the feedback on that coming!
New game:
Of the posters here, what were (are) your most important factors for your purchase decision. I'll start first:
-comfortable family transport (two adults,
two children, dog)
-safety (a matter of perception, though
bigger/longer wheelbase usually better)
-ability to haul ATV and pop-up camper at
the same time
-reliability
-on-road performance
-off-road/all terrain capability (very
limited need)
-exterior beauty
I got a TRD tacoma for around 22k. I bought the supercharger and had it installed for around 25,ooo.
Thats ONE HECK of an equipped vehicle.
Anyone who pays MSRP for a vehicle other than a porshce or Ferrari hasn't done their homework.
With the Ranger: At the time price was more of a concern and the Ford was the best quality, in my opinion, for the money.
mahimahi - The Tacoma was only about $2000 more than an equivalent Ranger and I feel that it was well worth it. I've never met anyone that paid 30K for a Tacoma.
I'd like to see the Ford and Chevy people going at it like they do at the races. How about the heated Hombre vs B4000 debate?
If you are going to tie Mitsubishi in with Toyota, then that must also reflect on Dodge. If you are digging on Japanese manufacturers, then does Mazda tarnish Fords reputation. Uh Oh, Chevy better cut it's ties with Toyota because of all these bad Japanese business practices?
Nobody's whining it was just astupid and unsupported statement made by Hulk66(which suprised me). You guys keep saying that nobody pays retail which may be true buy if the MSRP is higher then the price you will be working from is going to be higher. It's simple math,if a dealer is going to be taking say $4,000 off I'd rather it be off $24k than $28k. There was at least a $4000 difference between my Crew Cab and a comprable loaded Toyota...but the Toyota really never entered the picture(no 4-door model).Not because of it's price, but any educated buyer will look and say "what am I getting for the higher price?"
Decontenting results in significant cost reductions to the manufacturer: less design, less production and less labor to assemble. These cost reductions COULD be passed on to the consumer, or kept as additional profit. Toyota seems to have embraced decontenting with something close to a religous fervor, and they keep the savings.
The '95 Tacoma was Toyota'a first major decontenting project, followed by the Camry in '97. I no longer have the data I compiled on the '95 Tacoma, but you asked for some examples, so here's my best shot at remembering some:
1) The '95 Tacoma was advertised to weigh about 300-500 lbs LESS than the '94 truck. Some of this reduction was due to redesigned components, the rest to removal of parts. Weight reduction has very positive side effects of better gas mileage and better performance. Negative side effects could be a harsher ride and poorer ability to survive crashes.
2) The '89-'94 trucks offered more options and more levels of interior trim than the Tacoma. The SR5 package was a REAL upgrade in '89-'94, not just badging and a tachometer. TRD didn't exist then, so there was no TRD-type package.
3) Many small items like the number of door seals, insulation pads and cable clips were reduced. Could be one reason I feel the Tacoma is noisier than the earlier trucks.
4) Decontenting has continued on the Tacoma since '95. For example, the power antenna disappeared and the front bumper in now just a plastic shell.
5) As another (related) example, the 24-piece front bumper/grille assembly on the '96 Camry was reduced to about 7 pieces on the '97 Camry.
Decontenting does NOT equate to poor quality. Just cost savings to the manufacturer. It does beg the question of whether or not too much may have been removed in the interest of cost savings. IMHO, the answer is YES! I feel the Tacoma is not the equivalent of the earlier trucks and I feel I got a lot less truck for my money, but hey, that's just my opinion.
If I had it to do all over again, I would have kept my '89 truck rather than buy than damned '95 Tacoma. I had the '89 for six years without a single problem and it served my specific needs much better than either of my Tacomas. But that's not what you asked.
"what am I getting for the higher price?"
Well in my case, the truck I wanted, plain and simple.
"Rickc5, the limited is with the leather interior so your price comparison is false. Sure,
with the leather you pay higher price but the dakota doesn't have leather."
FYI- The base limited comes with a cloth interior. Leather is an (expensive) option.
You stated:
"Also the limited only comes in extended cab compared to the reg. cab you priced on the dakota. So if you compared the 2 vehicles with the reg. cab , the tacoma would be cheaper. Compare both with reg. cabs, the tacoma is cheaper."
If you READ my post again, you'll note that I stated I was comparing apples and oranges and I was only trying to jerk spoog's chain by showing him that indeed, a Tacoma COULD easily cost more than $5000 more than a Dakota. I was NOT attempting to compare similar trucks. You should be aware by now that if similar trucks were compared, the Tacoma would still have an MSRP of $2000-3000 more than Ranger, Frontier, etc. If not, just check the numbers here on Edmunds.
You stated:
"If toyota was an american truck, i'm sure it would outsell the so-called big 3 hands down."
FYI- The Tacoma was designed in America by Americans and is built in America by Americans for Americans.
You're also correct that this de-contenting has not been limited to the Tacoma. The Camry was de-contented in '97 and again, I feel Toyota removed some of the character of the Camry that made the '92-'96 Camrys such great cars. The '92-96 Camrys were VERY close to the Lexus ES300. Not any more. That hasn't kept them from being the best selling car though.
Since the Tacoma was the first product line to be de-contented, perhaps Toyota applied some "lessons learned" to the Camry and other efforts since, and God willing, will allow them to do a better job with the next compact truck in a year or two.
In case you haven't noticed, I don't hate Toyotas. In fact, I bought ONLY Toyotas for many years and still drive a Lexus. I just feel that Toyota made some serious mistakes with the Tacoma and haven't really fixed them.
As the years go by, my vehicle will get loving care and little abuse. If it works as well as I expect, it will stay with me for a long time and I will mourn it when I trade it in. If it turns out to be more trouble than it is worth to keep, I will mourn the lost potential and move on.
The point to this, is that we all love our vehicles and will rightfully defend them. Let's not lose sight of the fact that the harder you insult a person's vehicle choice, the harder you denounce the person who bought it.
-I wonder if this is an example of that toyota arrogance I was talking about earlier??
I may not be a totally unbiased "observer", as I truly don't like the Tacoma, BUT it sure seems to me that the mud-slinging and belittling has surely been a two-way street on this and other Edmunds pickup forums. There are plenty examples of that and I even found myself alluding to one of the posters being a moron in a moment of weakness. I won't do that again.
IMHO, there sure seem to be some vocal Tacoma owners who really push the envelope of civility in stuffing their opinions down others' throats. it just might be possible that these "attitudes" cause some very negative reactions from the owners of non-Toyotas.
We all have specific opinions about the vehicles we choose and this forum should be about sharing these personal opinions rather than regurgitating the opinions of others (such as the media).
A little more civility, combined with PERSONAL experiences, rather than media quotes, could go a long way to make this forum a less adversarial arena.
Just my $.02 worth.
Guess what where do you think the money ultimately ends up in Japan, where Toyota is Headquarted Duh!!!!!!!!
It is still a Foreign Company!
Yes, that works rather well.
Now, for my CHOICE:
I own a 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 4x4 4.7L V8. Why?
1) Previous excellent experience with Dodge.
2) Price
3) It fits my purpose and budget.
4) No good competition as yet. The Ford SuperCrew is too big, too pricey, and underpowered for it's size. The Nissan Crew Cab is just to small and underpowered for my needs (If I don't fit in the back, I don't want it). The Ford Sport Trac is just plain ugly and doesn't offer a decent engine, plus the bed is even smaller.
Under what circumstance would I choose a foreign vehicle? When there is absolutely no decent American choice. I don't think this condition currently exists, however, since we have so many choices available in many categories.
What you CHOOSE is up to you. I just hope you'll consider my comments. BTW, I am not a UAW worker or a member of any other union. I am a white collar worker, conservative, and proudly 99% Republican. If you care about this country, you'd be one, too, and make the right CHOICES.
Your statement about "buy" here,might be a little erroneous.The trend seems to be in the opposite direction.Nissan,Toyota among others are the ones that have invested in our people and country by building their vehicles here.The "Big 3" are having more and more of their parts manufactured out of this country as well as some vehicles.They are the ones who have not continued to invest here.
it turns into all against Toyota. What does that
mean? I am curious why all are focused on Toyota"
When you at the top of the mountain, everyone will try to take shots at you. Thats the answer.
When it comes to a reliable, durable, and offroad designed vehicle, Toyota can;t be beat.
OF course Jeep makes a very, very mean stock offroader, but their quality and reliability isn't up to Toyota standards.
When you plunk down 20k for a Toyota Tacoma, you know your getting a fine tuned MACHINE that will last you a decade without any major headaches.
This isn't some product just slapped together. Ever read Edmunds reviews of Toyota vehicles? They are always blown away by the superior fit and finish of these vehicles. No crooked door panels, no loose seals, ect.
And in the 4x4 world, Toyota dominates.
Best full size SUV for offroading? Land Cruiser
Best offroading compact pickup? Tacoma
Best offroading mid size SUV? 4runner and Jeep grand cherokee, Jeep cherokee classic.
If you look at the JD powers long term survey, you will see that toyota ALSO leads in quality and reliability in every truck category. This is a FIVE year test gang.
Every single trade magazine for the past 20 years has rated Toyota trucks as the most reliable and best built pickups, BAR NONE.
You translate this with offroading, and you have one fine, EXPERTLY designed, EXPERTLY built tool with which to utilize on the trails or on the roads in our suburbs.
NO offense, but a Ford Ranger with 50k miles starts feeling very week. It rattles, it pulls, it shakes, bl blah(read the edmunds long term ranger test and look at all the issues in just 3ok miles!).
A Tacoma at 100k feels like most rigs with 4o k, simple as that.
Why do people pay more money for a Porsche when they can just get a Mustang for50 grand less?
designed vehicle, Toyota can;t be beat.
If you are going to make a broad all encompassing statement like that,then you are WRONG.Land Rover,and Hummer will out perform Toyota off road without even trying.I do not think Toyota can go up a 31" verticle wall.
I'd mightend up with a Dakota 4x4 with the 4.7L V8 ext-cab with every option known to man.
But... The '01 Ranger looks awfully tempting, especially that great new premium off-road package.
Oh wait! The Ranger is up for a complete redesign in '02. Maybe that truck will take the cake.
I can't forget about the Nissan either. It's getting a supercharger for its 3.3L V6 this fall. It's the only truck I'd consider getting in a crew-cab. So, that truck might be the one.
A fully loaded TRD S/C 4x4 Tacoma would be fun too. But, aren't the Taco's getting a complete redesign in '02 too? Maybe I'd wait for one of those.
Damn! I just can't decide. It would take days of test driving them to let my subjective opinions take over to tell me which one to take. So, I guess I can't really answer the survey.
#2 - S-10 But the Z-R2 4.3
#3 - N. Frontier with that supercharger
#4 - Ranger and Tacoma (toss up)
Allen-
http://www.svtexperience.com/ranger.html
Will Ford build it? Probably not. Why is it that Dodge and Audi are the only companies that make a concept car, see that everyone loves it, and actually goes on to build it? I've never quite understood that.
Reg. Cab ...... Ranger or S-10 (prob. Ranger don't trust the Chevy Traany)
Extended Cab.... Taco
Crew Cab....... Nissan(As far as Dodge's size goes I'd just spend the extra for a full size)
I will say this though, even though I'm still a little scared of Dodge's reliablity, I'd be a damn IDIOT not to buy the Dodge for the same price as the rest of these trucks...as long as you give me the V-8
Published: June 24, 2000
Date of revision: None
By: James Brennan tech staff writer
(Part four of a four part series)
" It seems that Ford Motor Company has trouble
hitting their mark when it
comes to their slogan "Quality is Job 1". The
number of recalls per vehicle
and overall reliability ratings appear to be
moving in the wrong direction.
Ford owners everywhere are reluctant to convey
confidence and satisfaction when discussing their
car with friends, family and coworkers as of late.
In fact, out of 32 car manufacturers worldwide,
Ford has dropped to 28th place for overall customer
satisfaction. One customer for every 400 vehicles
sold is involved in an unresolved claim, meaning
either there is no known repair for a problem they
are experiencing, or they have become so frustrated
that they wish to have their car bought back.
Saturn, by comparison, has one unresolved claim
for every 14,000 vehicles sold. Despite these
facts, Ford continues to be one of the largest car
companies in the world. This can only mean that
their engineers and product
designers are second to none. To put it plainly,
Ford makes several very
appealing cars. Those responsible for the new and
redesigned Fords that hit the showroom floors
really have their finger on the pulse of the car
buying
public.
Since consumers often head straight for the Ford
dealership when
shopping for a car, then how is it possible that
the customer satisfaction
index continues to suffer? People buy cars to
suit, or sometimes create their personality. The
first symptom of the male mid-life crisis is the
desire to get behind the wheel of a sports car.
People nearly have love affairs with their cars,
giving them names, garages at night, hand waxes on
the weekends, and aftermarket accessories.
I have never known anyone to name a television, a
pair of shoes, or even a home for that matter.
Taking into account the emotion between a car
and its owner, the auto industry has carved its
own niche in the business
world.
Those who hold high office at Ford Motor Company
are excellent
businessmen. Men like Jac Nassar, and Carl Bergman
were brought in for their expertise in running big
businesses. This is exactly the problem, because
the auto industry is unique in the business world.
Businessmen look at facts and figures much
differently than what a "car person" would.
Someone who understands what a car means to a
person is interested in
selling a quality car for a reasonable price. A
car person knows that a happy
customer will return later to purchase another
vehicle. They will use parts
and assembly processes that will ensure a balance
of reliability,
performance, ergonomics, safety, and overall
value.
A businessman, on the other hand, is inclined to
ignore the big picture
and look at today's facts. Once the design becomes
a finished product and the Manufacturer's
Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) is determined, every
cost cutting measure conceivable will be taken to
increase the profit.
Replacing steel parts with aluminum and aluminum
parts with plastic does indeed reduce vehicle
weight and manufacturing cost. In moderation, the
consequences are negligible, but when these steps
are taken into practice on every part of the car,
the whole vehicle suffers.
Car people are embarrassed when their product
needs warranty repairs.
They are willing to pay a fair price to the dealer
for satisfying their
customer. Businessmen look at what warranty
repairs cost them and find
another way around it.
Ford, rather than justify the extra revenue
required to improve the quality of their parts, has
chosen another route. After studying which repairs
are the most common, they looked to Carl Bergman,
Head of Parts and Service for the answer. His
decision was to slash the warranty labor standards
across the board, forcing the dealerships to help
bear the burden.
Service staff and technicians have watched
helplessly as their monthly incomes have slowly
decreased. The result was a $70 million savings in
warranty costs last year alone. Carl Bergman
insisted that technicians are grossly overpaid. For
his efforts, Mr. Bergman collected a $16 million
bonus.
Unfortunately, these business practices do not
translate well to the
automotive world. Cutting corners in manufacturing
procedures and warranty
repairs only serves to aggravate the customer
satisfaction problem. Rather
than focus on one problem at a time, those who are
running Ford Motor Company need to take a long
hard look at the big picture. The public has
definitely shown an unmatched level of enthusiasm
for Ford's product line.
Sacrificing a few hundred dollars per vehicle at
the factory will not only save thousands in
warranty repairs, but will restore the pride of
ownership that has been lacking lately in those who
drive Fords. I am persuaded that Mr. Nassar, Mr.
Bergman and the rest would be amazed at how
thinking like "car people" could revolutionize the
entire company."
blueovalnews.com
BTW Rick I had the 89 and 99 Camry. The 1999 Camry was way better than the 89 in quality, ride, and build.
:^D
Which VeeDub are you talking about?
spoog, you asked for it, you got it. Arm yourself with a barfbag before going to this site.
http://www.pontiac.com/aztek/index.html
I think the Aztek is the best looking vehicle to come along since the Pacer.
Sorry about the long thread but since your're an avid Toyota fan I thought I would share my truck with you. In fact part of the reason I now own a Nissan is because of my Toyota. I first should tell you I owned the following truck from '92-'94.I have always liked the truck from '80-'83 the best of any of Toyota's years because of body style(which I think that the Tacoma closely resembles)and the solid axle. I traded a co worker my '86 Samuri 4x4 for it(I made out on this deal).Now the Toyota was in much worse condition than my Samuri by far alot of work went into it.
Yeah, I loved mine and it worked awesome. While I was attending FSU I needed the timing chain replaced. Since I didn't have alot of $$$ I went to the cheapest guy in Tallahassee to replace it but,he didn't replace the oil pump gears and he
couldn't seal the cover(timing) correctly so the motor was not only leaking alot of oil but it wasn't getting the oil around the engine properly. I must have driven around on that motor for about six months, revving it up at stop lights and stop signs to get the oil to the top of the motor. I finally saved up $600 to buy an '83 Celica engine to replace mine.I went this route because it was about $400 cheaper than a rebuild and I just wanted it to get me through college so after I graduated I could really do it right. I planned on keeping this '81 4x4 longbed forever. I had completely redone the interior new carpet, new dash, Mazda seats that flipped forward so I could get behind the seats.Anyway, I did the transplant of both engines: air cleaners, flipping the oil pan and so on. I really good friend of mine who happened to be one of the best mechanics in town let me use the back of his shop. He actually did the installation of the engine and I paid him about $200. But anyways I loved that truck. I even had new decals on order and they were coming from Japan. I had 33" tire with 15x10 rims and a 3" suspension lift(no blocks). The only complaint I had with the truck, and it was my fault because I didn't do the gear swap yet, was as 'bulletproof' as that engine was it was really weak(remember I had the 'R' not 'RE' no injection unfortunately)
after I put the big tires on it. Engine mods were
soon to come. But, now she's gone and I never got
to finish her. Maybe one day I'll take on another but it'll have to be an '83 though I like the grills better and the transmission doesn't have welded gears on the input shaft(the '81 was the only year they did that, figures right? a you can tell I had the tranny rebuild after bearing failure)but these little guys are hard to find in stock condition. I used to love shopping for it. Every now and then I break out the pictures
Oh I was going to ask you remember the Turbo 22RE? i think they were in the '84 &'85's
You know that Hitler used seveal of those 'things' in WWII. I actually drove one of those around after my Toyota was totaled. It was a friend of mine that had it and it was his second car for the weekends he had it totally resored....weird car or thing. LOL
jennifer,
Welcome to the 'war'. If you don't have any truck 'experience' drive them all, you may go back to your first 'love' but at least you can compare them all. Are you looking for a 4x4 or 2wd or a 2wd that 'rides' like the 4x4(in hieght)? As for reilability IMHO their all close, the thing I remeber is the brands with the 'worse' reliablility ratings have the most dealerships meaning that there should always be one near