The whole segment is so converged that of course everything looks derivative of each other, intentional or not.
--------------
Well said. In this segment, form follows function. These small-ish cars have a lot of interior room for their size, and are left with very little sheet metal to play creative designer with. Almost all of the design parameters are already dictated by things that can not be changed with current interior, engine, tire, trunk, fuel tank, safety, headlight, and tail light requirements.
What happens is, the designers make beautiful concept cars, then adapt them for general consumption. We need a big trunk, right? We've got to have a roomy back seat and head room, a place for a spare tire, legal lighting...Oh no! Suddenly, it's morphed into an Accord! Totally ruined! :P
sonata comparable to camry(class wise) azera better than sonata(thats why priced more) avalon better than camry(thats why priced more) BUT azera comparable to avalon(class wise)
thus equation is azera better than camry
If you think because the camry comes close to azera in price so they are somewhat comparable, than you just don't know hyundai is being generous. How much space does the azera have over camry? how much squieter is it?? the azera interior is made of higher quality materials,look at the details to the wheels. Tell me one thing the camry is better than the azera. There is no doubt the engine is better, but frankly the engine of the new camry is even better than the avalons, so would you call it better than the avalon? Frankly if that was the case cuz of the engine alone, what is the point of the avalon to be made?
the camry is not in the same league as the azera. If you have the proof how in your belief they are the same, please let us know
Santa Monica, CA - Inside Line today announced the 2007 Toyota Camry has won the latest six-cylinder family sedan comparison test, which is described in full at V6 Family Sedan Comparison Test.
Inside Line recently compared three 2006 six-cylinder sedans to the 2007 Camry V6 newcomer. Each promises functionality and value: the Ford Fusion SEL V6, with an MSRP of $25,650 USD, a 221-hp engine and six-speed automatic transmission; the Hyundai Sonata V6, with an MSRP of $24,895 USD, a 235-hp engine and five-speed automatic transmission; the Honda Accord EX V6 sedan, with an MSRP of $29,850 USD, a 244-hp engine and five-speed automatic transmission; and the Toyota Camry, with an MSRP of $30,840 USD, a 268-hp engine and six-speed automatic.
"The Camry's point total edged out the Accord's by 0.64, but there really was no dispute as to which of these four cars should win the comparison," reports Chief Road Test Editor Chris Walton. "The 2007 Camry is a do-it-all automobile, the one that pleases mom and dad and impresses the boss without embarrassing the kids. The V6 Camry makes the dash to 60 mph in less time than a recent BMW 330i did, it was nearly as quiet as a Bentley Flying Spur at idle and wide-open throttle, and its 22 city/31 highway fuel economy rating matches that of a four-cylinder Honda Civic Si. Pretty impressive stuff to say the least."
The Honda Accord came in second and was praised for its feature content, conservative styling, solid performance, undeniable reliability and competitive pricing. The Hyundai Sonata took third place and was particularly impressive on the highway, where it delivers a quiet and luxurious ride. The Ford Fusion, landing in fourth place, offers "bold Buck-Rogers-meets-the-American-family styling... a welcome breath of fresh air in the me-too world of back-swept pointy-tipped headlamps and 'four-door coupe' rooflines," according to Walton.
Vehicle Rankings from V6 Family Sedan Comparison Test 1. 2007 Toyota Camry XLE V6 2. 2006 Honda Accord EX V6 3. 2006 Hyundai Sonata LX V6 4. 2006 Ford Fusion SEL V6
"I regularly achieve 36 MPG in my 3300 lb Accord I-4 on beach runs, and have gotten as high as 40 MPG in a special case (no A/C, moderate temps, only 1 passenger and 1 suitcase, planets aligned, etc...). I have no reason to doubt he can hit EPA numbers or higher, because, after all, the EPA lowers numbers by SEVERAL MPGs on the sticker from what they actually achieve."
strange. my accord I-4 never got more than 31 in highway.
i like camry's side and rear, but front is painfully ugly. interior looks good on paper, but when i sat on it, it wasn't all that. i'm sure it rides well, but i'm not a fan of avalon/camry styling.
if i had to chose between azera and camry, i would take azera in a heartbeat.
the original article was from Automotive News and included a graph of monthly incentives was offered on the Sonata which is included at the bottom of the article copied below.
Last year, Hyundai Motor America touted the redesigned 2006 Sonata as capable of taking on the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. Part of that was bringing its sales volume into the big leagues of 150,000 units a year.
Yes, the Sonata is reaching its sales targets this year. But how Hyundai is getting those Sonata sales suggests potential long-term trouble for the automaker's volume leader.
Hyundai is pouring vehicles into daily rental fleets. Retail incentives exceed the entry-mid-sized segment average, according to Power Information Network data. Worse yet, the Sonata takes more days to turn than the segment average. Its transaction prices are declining as well.
Hyundai's goal of increasing the redesigned Sonata's sales by nearly 50 percent over the previous design's total - in a shrinking segment, no less - is a daunting challenge, acknowledges John Krafcik, Hyundai's vice president of product development and strategic planning. In 2004, Hyundai sold 107,189 Sonatas.
Krafcik says the warning signs are being addressed, or can be readily explained.
Since Sonata's launch last summer, about 30 percent its sales have been to daily rental fleets, according to CNW Marketing Research of Bandon, Ore. That is on the cusp of being dangerously high because it risks diminishing the brand's reputation, says CNW President Art Spinella.
On the plus side, Hyundai is getting a "fairly decent" price for its fleet sales, Spinella says. "It's not a fire sale like Ford Taurus was at the end of its life."
For a brand that has low awareness among shoppers, fleet sales can be a necessary evil, says Krafcik. He says Sonata fleet sales are right at the mid-sized sedan segment average.
"We need to get butts in seats. Fleet is a way to do that."
Just as important is getting more retail consumers to buy the Sonata.
The Hyundai Challenge
Kevin Mize, dealer principal of Chicago's O'Hare Automotive Group (Hyundai-Honda-Pontiac), said retail sales are on the rise.
"Every launch comes out slow in sales, but Sonata is definitely getting some momentum," Mize says.
After a $100 million advertising launch for Sonata last year, Hyundai will crank up spending again this year. A campaign called The Hyundai Challenge will run against the 2007 Toyota Camry launch. The ads will tell shoppers that they shouldn't buy a Camry without first checking out the Sonata.
Hyundai dealers have been encouraged to have a Camry on-site for comparison purposes, especially in terms of sticker price. Hyundai claims comparably equipped Sonatas can cost $4,000 less than the 2007 Camry.
As for incentives, Hyundai has a $500 cash-back deal on the four-cylinder Sonata, and $1,000 on the V-6. It also has $1,000 cash for Hyundai owners, which accounts for about 30 percent of Sonata deals. There also is $1,000 for those who finance through Hyundai Motor Finance, about 60 percent of the deals.
More four-bangers
Data from the Power Information Network show Sonata transaction prices have declined since launch. In August, Hyundai's average transaction price was $19,805, but that has slid steadily to $18,868 in February. Krafcik says that is due to Hyundai's model mix leaning more toward four-cylinder engines.
The increased days to turn comes from Hyundai cranking up its Alabama manufacturing plant in anticipation of Job 1 of the Santa Fe sport wagon.
When the plant has to concentrate on starting Santa Fe production, Sonata output will decline. Krafcik said Hyundai was trying to get dealers enough inventory to carry them through the fallow months.
Hyundai also is restructuring its pricing and options packaging by pulling forward its 2007 model year release. The 2007 model, which will arrive in May or June, will give the four-cylinder model more standard features and a realigned pricing structure.
The Sonata takes more days to turn than average Sonata / Entry-mid-sized segment Sept. ’05 41 / 34 Jan. ’06 71 / 52 Feb. ’06 74 / 63 and its average cash rebates are high. Sonata / Entry-mid-sized segment Sept. ’05 $1,496 / $1,448 Jan. ’06 1,978 / 1,596 Feb. ’06 2,062 / 1,744
I have no reason to doubt he can hit EPA numbers or higher, because, after all, the EPA lowers numbers by SEVERAL MPGs on the sticker from what they actually achieve.
That's a rather bizarre statement considering all the flak the EPA and manufacturer's get because the majority of cars never achieve the "idealized" numbers in the real world. The EPA is at work now redesigning their testing procedures to better reflect the "real" world that we drive in everyday.
Looks like this is Recycling Night, first with the posting of the old review by Edmunds, then of the article from March that we discussed at length a few weeks ago.
Note that in that 2nd article, the Sonata's incentives are probably below the industry average for its segment now, with incentives down $1000 on the V6s and down $1500 on the I4s from when that article was published.
What will be interesting to see is what happens to Sonata's sales volume with the big "Hyundai Challenge" marketing campaign but reduced incentives.
Wal-mart will fails soon because it sells China stuff too cheap? Hyun-mart will also fails soon because it sells USA made stuff too cheap?
Some people hates Wal-mart because it kills American Jobs. On the other hand, people can get stuff cheaper by buying at wal-mart and save money. They say Wal-mart keeps cost of living low.
If a company follows Wal-mart and sells made in USA instead of made in China, you have to give a credit for that company.
"the camry is not in the same league as the azera. If you have the proof how in your belief they are the same, please let us know"
You might be surprised how many people are cross shopping the Camry and the Azera. In fact sales of the top line Camry will far outnumber the top line Azera even is the pricing is similar (IMO).
I had an Accord, and I like it as much as Sonata, but V6 Accord's price was out of my reach.
We are here to talk. You can post whatever you want to, but just remember that not everyone have same idea like yours. As long as someone talks with logic behind it, I will buy it. If you just express your opinions, I will pass it on.
"That's a rather bizarre statement considering all the flak the EPA and manufacturer's get because the majority of cars never achieve the "idealized" numbers in the real world. The EPA is at work now redesigning their testing procedures to better reflect the "real" world that we drive in everyday."
You mean to say that no one gets EPA mileage? Yes, the EPA is working to redesign their testing procedures, but htere are many drivers that do get closr to or over EPA mileage figures in cars that are driven in a more optimized manner than the EPA test. Also, I believe that the EPS lowers test mileage by 10-20% (not sure of exact percentage) to try and compensate.
Check other forums on Inside Line on gas mileage, you will see quite a few people who better EPA fgures
One of the basic rules of marketing is that you "plump" up your product and NEVER disparage BY NAME your competition. The ***BRAND X*** print and TV ads now directly disparge the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord...all in the name of getting customers into the ***BRAND X*** showrooms. Somebody needs to take Marketing 101.
Sorry, I have owned 11 cars in my life. None of those ever got EPA MPG. Maybe, my heavy foot? My wife drives car normally, and she does not get that either. Maybe more Gravity Force affects on North West area then.
i like camry's side and rear, but front is painfully ugly. interior looks good on paper, but when i sat on it, it wasn't all that. i'm sure it rides well, but i'm not a fan of avalon/camry styling.
if i had to chose between azera and camry, i would take azera in a heartbeat.
I agree the Camry's front is 'butt' ugly. The side view ain't much better. Kinda stretched up. Lots of undefined sheet metal. Not real attractive.
I don't think the Azera's much better. Talk about plain and non-descript. I think the Elantra has better lines.
With so many vehicles being about equal in performance etc. these days, styling is everything in my book. Give me a looker on wheels. I'll assume the guts of the car will be top shelf. And as much as I like Hondas, the Accord is aching for a new doo bad.
You mean to say that no one gets EPA mileage? Yes, the EPA is working to redesign their testing procedures, but htere are many drivers that do get closr to or over EPA mileage figures in cars that are driven in a more optimized manner than the EPA test. Also, I believe that the EPS lowers test mileage by 10-20% (not sure of exact percentage) to try and compensate.
First, I will agree that there are a "few" that get or exceed EPA estimates, but only a very few as compared to the entire driving public at large.
Second, there is a very good reason the EPA is redesigning their tests. That is--They are very inaccurate and the EPA has admitted so. Their tests do not reflect real world figures--from their site-->Although no single test can ever account for the wide variety of conditions experienced by every driver, EPA's proposal will bring the MPG estimates closer to the fuel economy consumers actually are achieving on the road. Here's a link: EPA Fuel Economy Site
Third, Regarding your comment: Also, I believe that the EPS lowers test mileage by 10-20% (not sure of exact percentage) to try and compensate.
? Do you have a link to a site or a source for that info? I have never seen a comment or statement from the EPA about a "fudge" factor. If so, that would make their figures even more suspect and out of touch with the real world. :confuse:
PS: I just found 1 small comment on the EPA site about this "adjustment". They did make a change to reflect what people were getting. They dropped the city number 10% and the highway number 20%--back in the 80's! :surprise:
Disparage? Looks more like comparing to me, as in, lining up the facts and letting the consumer see the differences. That is done all the time in the marketing world.
Your assumptions are slightly wrong so your conclusion isn't correct.
sonata comparable to camry(class wise) In the middle and lower trims azera better than sonata(thats why priced more) true avalon better than camry(thats why priced more) probably but it's a matter of choice BUT azera comparable to avalon(class wise) and also the XLE V6 Camry thus equation is azera better than camry Wrong! because you didn't differentiate between basic Camry and XLE V6 Camry
If you use your same logic on price then the Avalon is better than the Azera ( higher price ) and the Camry is better than the Sonata ( higher price ).
Tell me one thing the camry is better than the azera. There is no doubt the engine is better, but frankly the engine of the new camry is even better than the avalons
Your own words confirm my opinion, In this range the three vehicles are very similar. There is a whole group of buyers now shopping the Camry vs the TL. Are they shopping the Azera vs the TL?
I showed you the proof in facts before. Your comments above are just your personal opinions - which are OK... but it's only you alone. The other facts speak for themselves.
By normal driving, I mean not even getting close to 3,000 RPM in town, only 3,000-3,500 RPM when merging, and within ten percent of the posted speed limit 98% of the time. This is how I've achieved my EPA numbers regularly.
I get 45 MPG on my Sonata too, since yesterday. Even with 70-80 MPH at 7 AM, and 20 MPH after 4 PM. I think my Sonata turns to be a time machine at that high speed, and shortens the travel distance by half. Like I said, I just can't prove it. Miracle happens :surprise: .
In my 97 and 2000 Camry's I consistently got 31-33 mpg everyday on my highway 85%/city15% commute. Now in the Prius I get 51 mpg with the same ratio. All three vehicle were getting very very close to the EPA values over 200,000 miles in the last 6 yrs.
The EPA values are valid if one understands them and what the limitations are.
There aren't too many hills in the coastal plain of Alabama, where most of trips occur, but the ones that we do encounter rarely require a downshift, and those that do don't exactly send revs soaring.
What's next, a blinding light on me, like on the police movies? If you don't believe me (not referring to just you njerald, as you've been nice) then just say you don't believe me and many others on the Mileage Boards for the Accord, and be done with it. Trust me, you won't worry me, because I have nothing to lose by you not believing me. Other Accord owners will keep smiling with me; right past the local Chevron.
I think that by taking into account AC and winter driving the best guesstimates is that the EPA values will drop by 10-15%. 10% for ICE vehicle and 15% for hybrids.
Basic fact if one drives consistently at 75 mph or faster the FE will drop by 20-30% from the EPA Hwy value.
A 4c CamCordNata with an EPA rating of 33 mpg HWY will likely achieve only 25-28 mpg while doing 75 mph or faster.
At 75 MPH is when I actually achieved around 40 MPG, but I had no A/C on, no cruise (went faster down hills, slowed going up hills (staying within 10% of the speed limitmost of the time, except for a few running starts up hills to 80 MPH). Most can expect near EPA numbers with A/C and cr.ctrl. on. That's what I've gotten with Cruise and A/C on - 35 MPG in the Accord I-4.
Larger wheels and tires (with full-size spare) Power rear sunshade Standard heated driver and passenger seats (2) One-touch power windows Available power retractable outside mirrors Available adjustable pedals Leather premium shift knob trim Available memory settings (driver seat; exterior mirrors; steering wheels) Two extra rear side air bags Standard traction control Standard stability control Roomier in every dimension, including trunk space
Advantages on Camry XLE over Azera Limited: Power glass standrad Brake assist Available navigation system Better fuel economy (stated)
I'll compare the XLE V6 with everything except the Navi at a price of $29500 MSRP and grant the Azera a $2500 price differential.
Advantages on Azera Limited over Camry XLE:
Larger wheels and tires (with full-size spare) - OK Power rear sunshade ( Camry manual ) Standard heated driver and passenger seats ( Included as an option above ) (2) One-touch power windows - Camry (1) Available power retractable outside mirrors - OK Available adjustable pedals - OK Camry offered them last yr and noone ordered them Leather premium shift knob trim - ( Camry sim-wood ) Available memory settings (driver seat; exterior mirrors; steering wheels) - OK Two extra rear side air bags - OK Standard traction control - ( included as options ) Stanard stability control - ( included as options )
Advantages on Camry XLE over Azera Limited: Power glass standrad Brake assist Available navigation system PLUS: Premium sound system 6 speed AT Better Fuel Economy
These are pretty similar vehicles with the Camry XLE at $29500 and the Azera at $27000.
Yup... I'm smiling. I get better than the EPA estimates all the time in both my 95 and 06 Accords. But I'm aware of what I'm doing so I don't push it too often. Okay, maybe sometimes.
your comparison just above already helps strengthen my point. And btw the azeras sound system rocks, so its prob even(look at the reviews if u don't believe me)
How much more is the azera compared to the camry xle even with your own comparison? and please don't use options because that would drive the camrys price even further north and that already is a laughter.
You forgot to mention size and also price even with all of azeras advantage of the camry.
Lastly if your theory is true, how could toyota be dumb to have an avalon then? what is the point to buy an avalon when you could buy a comparable camry??
honestly the azera is more of a car than the camry in an overall sense, and if you don't believe me, just go give the azera a test drive and you will see what i mean
I have not seen my concern voiced anywhere about hybrids so here it goes. Are the test numbers achieved with full or empty battery? Or somewhere in between? I bet that MPG drops if engine runs to charge battery.
The ***BRAND X*** print and TV ads now directly disparge the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord... - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I disagree. There is no dispargment of Camry or Accord in those commercials. The ads are highly respectful of the cars, as they should be. The message in those commercials is simple. Hyundai asks car shoppers to drive all 3 cars and compare cars and prices fairly. That's all. Hyundai believes many customers will find the cars acceptably comparable, and Sonata prices highly favorable. That's exactly what I did, and it took the decision out of my hands. It was a no-brainer for me. Those with an extra $100 bucks per month for car payments may not find the difference quite as compelling as me.
FWIW, I saw an ad by Dodge today that could have been from the "Hyundai Challenge" campaign. It was comparing a Grand Caravan SXT to the Odyssey and Sienna. One thing that IMO Dodge did better than Hyundai is post in big numbers the Edmunds TMV for the three vans, including incentives. The difference was about $6000 in favor of the Caravan. I wonder why Hyundai doesn't do this on their ads for the Sonata--post pricing including incentives? Instead, they use list prices for all the cars, which is still an advantage for the Sonata but not nearly as great as if they added in the $2000 rebate for the V6 models.
Sorry, I have owned 11 cars in my life. None of those ever got EPA MPG.
Obviously, there are lots of factors that determine the true MPG one will get...driving style, type of car, terrain, ect. But you're crazy if you don't think LOTS of people meet or exceed MPG estimates.
For example, I have owned a 1992 Acura Integra 4 cyl. Auto since 1996, and put over 100K miles on it to date. I've been tracking gas mileage closely since 2000.
Over the last 60K+ miles, I have NEVER gotten below the EPA city/hwy ratings. The EPA highway rating for my car is 29 MPG. During 100% highway driving on flat Ohio roads going 70 MPH, I routinely get 34-35 MPG.
That's 5-6 MPG ABOVE the EPA rating for my car.
I just bought a new Accord, and my first tank of gas yielded exactly 30 MPG in 50%/50% city/hwy driving.
You're right about that backy, but I think Hyundai's stategy is to get you down to the dealership rather than try to sell you entirely in your living room. They feel they have a big advangage once they get you to drive the cars and look at the features and prices. Just my gut on it.
Sure. But Job #1 is to get you to come down to the dealership. I'm not sure the Hyundai warranty or the fact that ESC is standard will do that by itself. But that plus a savings of $4-5000 might.
I had an Accord, and I like it as much as Sonata, but V6 Accord's price was out of my reach.
We are here to talk. You can post whatever you want to, but just remember that not everyone have same idea like yours. As long as someone talks with logic behind it, I will buy it. If you just express your opinions, I will pass it on"
I wish you would practice what you preach. Anybody who does not agree with your opinion you immediately start castigating them. We are discussing cars; everyone is entitled to an opinion. Please remember that.
"Sorry, I have owned 11 cars in my life. None of those ever got EPA MPG. Maybe, my heavy foot? My wife drives car normally, and she does not get that either. Maybe more Gravity Force affects on North West area then."
Definitely has something to do with your driving style; check out other inside line forums, you will see how many people are getting EPA ratings. If you feel that they are all lying; I guess thats your opinion. I regularly get 28MPG on my 2000 Altima and 32-33MPG on my 03 Accord (all HWY). Yes, I can't prove it on this forum; neither do I want to.
Regarding gravity, just so you know, the force of gravity is the same all over the earth; and anyway, friction is the major force that dictates energy burnt for specific output, not gravity. If you think comments like the one you made on gravity make you look smart, think again.
Comments
--------------
Well said. In this segment, form follows function. These small-ish cars have a lot of interior room for their size, and are left with very little sheet metal to play creative designer with. Almost all of the design parameters are already dictated by things that can not be changed with current interior, engine, tire, trunk, fuel tank, safety, headlight, and tail light requirements.
What happens is, the designers make beautiful concept cars, then adapt them for general consumption. We need a big trunk, right? We've got to have a roomy back seat and head room, a place for a spare tire, legal lighting...Oh no! Suddenly, it's morphed into an Accord! Totally ruined! :P
sonata comparable to camry(class wise)
azera better than sonata(thats why priced more)
avalon better than camry(thats why priced more)
BUT azera comparable to avalon(class wise)
thus equation is azera better than camry
If you think because the camry comes close to azera in price so they are somewhat comparable, than you just don't know hyundai is being generous. How much space does the azera have over camry? how much squieter is it?? the azera interior is made of higher quality materials,look at the details to the wheels. Tell me one thing the camry is better than the azera. There is no doubt the engine is better, but frankly the engine of the new camry is even better than the avalons, so would you call it better than the avalon? Frankly if that was the case cuz of the engine alone, what is the point of the avalon to be made?
the camry is not in the same league as the azera. If you have the proof how in your belief they are the same, please let us know
Inside Line recently compared three 2006 six-cylinder sedans to the 2007 Camry V6 newcomer. Each promises functionality and value: the Ford Fusion SEL V6, with an MSRP of $25,650 USD, a 221-hp engine and six-speed automatic transmission; the Hyundai Sonata V6, with an MSRP of $24,895 USD, a 235-hp engine and five-speed automatic transmission; the Honda Accord EX V6 sedan, with an MSRP of $29,850 USD, a 244-hp engine and five-speed automatic transmission; and the Toyota Camry, with an MSRP of $30,840 USD, a 268-hp engine and six-speed automatic.
"The Camry's point total edged out the Accord's by 0.64, but there really was no dispute as to which of these four cars should win the comparison," reports Chief Road Test Editor Chris Walton. "The 2007 Camry is a do-it-all automobile, the one that pleases mom and dad and impresses the boss without embarrassing the kids. The V6 Camry makes the dash to 60 mph in less time than a recent BMW 330i did, it was nearly as quiet as a Bentley Flying Spur at idle and wide-open throttle, and its 22 city/31 highway fuel economy rating matches that of a four-cylinder Honda Civic Si. Pretty impressive stuff to say the least."
The Honda Accord came in second and was praised for its feature content, conservative styling, solid performance, undeniable reliability and competitive pricing. The Hyundai Sonata took third place and was particularly impressive on the highway, where it delivers a quiet and luxurious ride. The Ford Fusion, landing in fourth place, offers "bold Buck-Rogers-meets-the-American-family styling... a welcome breath of fresh air in the me-too world of back-swept pointy-tipped headlamps and 'four-door coupe' rooflines," according to Walton.
Vehicle Rankings from V6 Family Sedan Comparison Test
1. 2007 Toyota Camry XLE V6
2. 2006 Honda Accord EX V6
3. 2006 Hyundai Sonata LX V6
4. 2006 Ford Fusion SEL V6
strange. my accord I-4 never got more than 31 in highway.
if i had to chose between azera and camry, i would take azera in a heartbeat.
I get 45 MPG on my V6 Sonata too. Sorry, I can't prove it either.
link title
the original article was from Automotive News and included a graph of monthly incentives was offered on the Sonata which is included at the bottom of the article copied below.
Last year, Hyundai Motor America touted the redesigned 2006 Sonata as capable of taking on the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. Part of that was bringing its sales volume into the big leagues of 150,000 units a year.
Yes, the Sonata is reaching its sales targets this year. But how Hyundai is getting those Sonata sales suggests potential long-term trouble for the automaker's volume leader.
Hyundai is pouring vehicles into daily rental fleets. Retail incentives exceed the entry-mid-sized segment average, according to Power Information Network data. Worse yet, the Sonata takes more days to turn than the segment average. Its transaction prices are declining as well.
Hyundai's goal of increasing the redesigned Sonata's sales by nearly 50 percent over the previous design's total - in a shrinking segment, no less - is a daunting challenge, acknowledges John Krafcik, Hyundai's vice president of product development and strategic planning. In 2004, Hyundai sold 107,189 Sonatas.
Krafcik says the warning signs are being addressed, or can be readily explained.
Since Sonata's launch last summer, about 30 percent its sales have been to daily rental fleets, according to CNW Marketing Research of Bandon, Ore. That is on the cusp of being dangerously high because it risks diminishing the brand's reputation, says CNW President Art Spinella.
On the plus side, Hyundai is getting a "fairly decent" price for its fleet sales, Spinella says. "It's not a fire sale like Ford Taurus was at the end of its life."
For a brand that has low awareness among shoppers, fleet sales can be a necessary evil, says Krafcik. He says Sonata fleet sales are right at the mid-sized sedan segment average.
"We need to get butts in seats. Fleet is a way to do that."
Just as important is getting more retail consumers to buy the Sonata.
The Hyundai Challenge
Kevin Mize, dealer principal of Chicago's O'Hare Automotive Group (Hyundai-Honda-Pontiac), said retail sales are on the rise.
"Every launch comes out slow in sales, but Sonata is definitely getting some momentum," Mize says.
After a $100 million advertising launch for Sonata last year, Hyundai will crank up spending again this year. A campaign called The Hyundai Challenge will run against the 2007 Toyota Camry launch. The ads will tell shoppers that they shouldn't buy a Camry without first checking out the Sonata.
Hyundai dealers have been encouraged to have a Camry on-site for comparison purposes, especially in terms of sticker price. Hyundai claims comparably equipped Sonatas can cost $4,000 less than the 2007 Camry.
As for incentives, Hyundai has a $500 cash-back deal on the four-cylinder Sonata, and $1,000 on the V-6. It also has $1,000 cash for Hyundai owners, which accounts for about 30 percent of Sonata deals. There also is $1,000 for those who finance through Hyundai Motor Finance, about 60 percent of the deals.
More four-bangers
Data from the Power Information Network show Sonata transaction prices have declined since launch. In August, Hyundai's average transaction price was $19,805, but that has slid steadily to $18,868 in February. Krafcik says that is due to Hyundai's model mix leaning more toward four-cylinder engines.
The increased days to turn comes from Hyundai cranking up its Alabama manufacturing plant in anticipation of Job 1 of the Santa Fe sport wagon.
When the plant has to concentrate on starting Santa Fe production, Sonata output will decline. Krafcik said Hyundai was trying to get dealers enough inventory to carry them through the fallow months.
Hyundai also is restructuring its pricing and options packaging by pulling forward its 2007 model year release. The 2007 model, which will arrive in May or June, will give the four-cylinder model more standard features and a realigned pricing structure.
The Sonata takes more days to turn than average
Sonata / Entry-mid-sized segment
Sept. ’05 41 / 34
Jan. ’06 71 / 52
Feb. ’06 74 / 63
and its average cash rebates are high.
Sonata / Entry-mid-sized segment
Sept. ’05 $1,496 / $1,448
Jan. ’06 1,978 / 1,596
Feb. ’06 2,062 / 1,744
That's a rather bizarre statement considering all the flak the EPA and manufacturer's get because the majority of cars never achieve the "idealized" numbers in the real world. The EPA is at work now redesigning their testing procedures to better reflect the "real" world that we drive in everyday.
Note that in that 2nd article, the Sonata's incentives are probably below the industry average for its segment now, with incentives down $1000 on the V6s and down $1500 on the I4s from when that article was published.
What will be interesting to see is what happens to Sonata's sales volume with the big "Hyundai Challenge" marketing campaign but reduced incentives.
Wal-mart will fails soon because it sells China stuff too cheap?
Hyun-mart will also fails soon because it sells USA made stuff too cheap?
Some people hates Wal-mart because it kills American Jobs. On the other hand, people can get stuff cheaper by buying at wal-mart and save money. They say Wal-mart keeps cost of living low.
If a company follows Wal-mart and sells made in USA instead of made in China, you have to give a credit for that company.
You might be surprised how many people are cross shopping the Camry and the Azera. In fact sales of the top line Camry will far outnumber the top line Azera even is the pricing is similar (IMO).
If I had to chose, I would pick the Camry SE in a heartbeat. The Azera does nothing for me; I think the Sonata looks much better.
I had an Accord, and I like it as much as Sonata, but V6 Accord's price was out of my reach.
We are here to talk.
You can post whatever you want to, but just remember that not everyone have same idea like yours.
As long as someone talks with logic behind it, I will buy it. If you just express your opinions, I will pass it on.
You mean to say that no one gets EPA mileage? Yes, the EPA is working to redesign their testing procedures, but htere are many drivers that do get closr to or over EPA mileage figures in cars that are driven in a more optimized manner than the EPA test. Also, I believe that the EPS lowers test mileage by 10-20% (not sure of exact percentage) to try and compensate.
Check other forums on Inside Line on gas mileage, you will see quite a few people who better EPA fgures
if i had to chose between azera and camry, i would take azera in a heartbeat.
I agree the Camry's front is 'butt' ugly. The side view ain't much better. Kinda stretched up. Lots of undefined sheet metal. Not real attractive.
I don't think the Azera's much better. Talk about plain and non-descript. I think the Elantra has better lines.
With so many vehicles being about equal in performance etc. these days, styling is everything in my book. Give me a looker on wheels. I'll assume the guts of the car will be top shelf. And as much as I like Hondas, the Accord is aching for a new doo bad.
First, I will agree that there are a "few" that get or exceed EPA estimates, but only a very few as compared to the entire driving public at large.
Second, there is a very good reason the EPA is redesigning their tests. That is--They are very inaccurate and the EPA has admitted so. Their tests do not reflect real world figures--from their site-->Although no single test can ever account for the wide variety of conditions experienced by every driver, EPA's proposal will bring the MPG estimates closer to the fuel economy consumers actually are achieving on the road. Here's a link:
EPA Fuel Economy Site
Third, Regarding your comment: Also, I believe that the EPS lowers test mileage by 10-20% (not sure of exact percentage) to try and compensate.
? Do you have a link to a site or a source for that info? I have never seen a comment or statement from the EPA about a "fudge" factor. If so, that would make their figures even more suspect and out of touch with the real world. :confuse:
PS: I just found 1 small comment on the EPA site about this "adjustment". They did make a change to reflect what people were getting. They dropped the city number 10% and the highway number 20%--back in the 80's! :surprise:
sonata comparable to camry(class wise) In the middle and lower trims
azera better than sonata(thats why priced more) true
avalon better than camry(thats why priced more) probably but it's a matter of choice
BUT azera comparable to avalon(class wise) and also the XLE V6 Camry
thus equation is azera better than camry Wrong! because you didn't differentiate between basic Camry and XLE V6 Camry
If you use your same logic on price then the Avalon is better than the Azera ( higher price ) and the Camry is better than the Sonata ( higher price ).
Tell me one thing the camry is better than the azera. There is no doubt the engine is better, but frankly the engine of the new camry is even better than the avalons
Your own words confirm my opinion, In this range the three vehicles are very similar. There is a whole group of buyers now shopping the Camry vs the TL. Are they shopping the Azera vs the TL?
I showed you the proof in facts before. Your comments above are just your personal opinions - which are OK... but it's only you alone. The other facts speak for themselves.
Like I said, I just can't prove it. Miracle happens :surprise: .
The EPA values are valid if one understands them and what the limitations are.
What's next, a blinding light on me, like on the police movies? If you don't believe me (not referring to just you njerald, as you've been nice) then just say you don't believe me and many others on the Mileage Boards for the Accord, and be done with it. Trust me, you won't worry me, because I have nothing to lose by you not believing me. Other Accord owners will keep smiling with me; right past the local Chevron.
Basic fact if one drives consistently at 75 mph or faster the FE will drop by 20-30% from the EPA Hwy value.
A 4c CamCordNata with an EPA rating of 33 mpg HWY will likely achieve only 25-28 mpg while doing 75 mph or faster.
Azera Limited: $26,835
Camry XLE: $27,520
Advantages on Azera Limited over Camry XLE:
Larger wheels and tires (with full-size spare)
Power rear sunshade
Standard heated driver and passenger seats
(2) One-touch power windows
Available power retractable outside mirrors
Available adjustable pedals
Leather premium shift knob trim
Available memory settings (driver seat; exterior mirrors; steering wheels)
Two extra rear side air bags
Standard traction control
Standard stability control
Roomier in every dimension, including trunk space
Advantages on Camry XLE over Azera Limited:
Power glass standrad
Brake assist
Available navigation system
Better fuel economy (stated)
I'll compare the XLE V6 with everything except the Navi at a price of $29500 MSRP and grant the Azera a $2500 price differential.
Advantages on Azera Limited over Camry XLE:
Larger wheels and tires (with full-size spare) - OK
Power rear sunshade ( Camry manual )
Standard heated driver and passenger seats ( Included as an option above )
(2) One-touch power windows - Camry (1)
Available power retractable outside mirrors - OK
Available adjustable pedals - OK Camry offered them last yr and noone ordered them
Leather premium shift knob trim - ( Camry sim-wood )
Available memory settings (driver seat; exterior mirrors; steering wheels) - OK
Two extra rear side air bags - OK
Standard traction control - ( included as options )
Stanard stability control - ( included as options )
Advantages on Camry XLE over Azera Limited:
Power glass standrad
Brake assist
Available navigation system
PLUS:
Premium sound system
6 speed AT
Better Fuel Economy
These are pretty similar vehicles with the Camry XLE at $29500 and the Azera at $27000.
How much more is the azera compared to the camry xle even with your own comparison? and please don't use options because that would drive the camrys price even further north and that already is a laughter.
You forgot to mention size and also price even with all of azeras advantage of the camry.
Lastly if your theory is true, how could toyota be dumb to have an avalon then? what is the point to buy an avalon when you could buy a comparable camry??
honestly the azera is more of a car than the camry in an overall sense, and if you don't believe me, just go give the azera a test drive and you will see what i mean
Are the test numbers achieved with full or empty battery? Or somewhere in between?
I bet that MPG drops if engine runs to charge battery.
Krzys
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I disagree. There is no dispargment of Camry or Accord in those commercials. The ads are highly respectful of the cars, as they should be. The message in those commercials is simple. Hyundai asks car shoppers to drive all 3 cars and compare cars and prices fairly. That's all. Hyundai believes many customers will find the cars acceptably comparable, and Sonata prices highly favorable. That's exactly what I did, and it took the decision out of my hands. It was a no-brainer for me. Those with an extra $100 bucks per month for car payments may not find the difference quite as compelling as me.
Obviously, there are lots of factors that determine the true MPG one will get...driving style, type of car, terrain, ect. But you're crazy if you don't think LOTS of people meet or exceed MPG estimates.
For example, I have owned a 1992 Acura Integra 4 cyl. Auto since 1996, and put over 100K miles on it to date. I've been tracking gas mileage closely since 2000.
Over the last 60K+ miles, I have NEVER gotten below the EPA city/hwy ratings. The EPA highway rating for my car is 29 MPG. During 100% highway driving on flat Ohio roads going 70 MPH, I routinely get 34-35 MPG.
That's 5-6 MPG ABOVE the EPA rating for my car.
I just bought a new Accord, and my first tank of gas yielded exactly 30 MPG in 50%/50% city/hwy driving.
I had an Accord, and I like it as much as Sonata, but V6 Accord's price was out of my reach.
We are here to talk.
You can post whatever you want to, but just remember that not everyone have same idea like yours.
As long as someone talks with logic behind it, I will buy it. If you just express your opinions, I will pass it on"
I wish you would practice what you preach. Anybody who does not agree with your opinion you immediately start castigating them. We are discussing cars; everyone is entitled to an opinion. Please remember that.
Just don't tell me something I can't believe.
Definitely has something to do with your driving style; check out other inside line forums, you will see how many people are getting EPA ratings. If you feel that they are all lying; I guess thats your opinion. I regularly get 28MPG on my 2000 Altima and 32-33MPG on my 03 Accord (all HWY). Yes, I can't prove it on this forum; neither do I want to.
Regarding gravity, just so you know, the force of gravity is the same all over the earth; and anyway, friction is the major force that dictates energy burnt for specific output, not gravity. If you think comments like the one you made on gravity make you look smart, think again.