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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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If labor was zero they might save $1000-1500 per vehicle. The rest of the $5000 is just commercial incentive to buy part of the market.
There is profit... they even use portion of it to bribe the SK government.
It has beaten hondayota 3 years now in jd power initial quality. thats already three years better quality
u want 10? i have no doubt hyundai with the way they are making cars will be top 5 for jd quality for years to come
What makes you think they would make a shaky car? why not give them the benefit of the doubt. Unlike their old ponys and excel, this is not the same car. The sonata was researched to death before made, using state of the art auto plant, refences from top quality cars(audi a6 lexus 330). Why the negativity. i dun get the hatred
Look in the mirror... isn't it that you have same hatred for the other brands?
If labor was zero they might save $1000-1500 per vehicle. The rest of the $5000 is just commercial incentive to buy part of the market."
They're making money, KD. Actually, this is where the profits go for the following:
Toyota - new models
Honda - R&D
GM - no profit
Hyundai - bribery
Total lie. In all the comparison test in 03 the 7th generation Accord creamed the competition. You will say anything to convince yourself how good the Sonata is. Despite what you say, the proof will only come in time. J. D. Power is a big joke. It's the award for companies who can't win a REAL AWARD.
--end quote--
OK, explain what you just said. Pray tell, what is a real award to you? I too have no way of knowing how Sonata compares to an Accord, Camry, Ford Five Hundred, LaCrosse, or whatever in four to eight years of service. The Sonata and Azera are totally new cars. Sonata is a new factory. They are using new engines. All there is to go by is current data. That data is encouraging. Hyundai is now third in rank for number of problems per car. They had a dicey past, and are willing to offer the longest of warranties. Not sure what more they can do.
You are a Honda fan I take it. Very good point on reliability of those cars. History would indicate it is safe bet to last a long time. It very well could be that the more expensive Accord is the better of the two choices for those considering the Sonata. Will it be is only a guess. Maybe some people like the V6 for the price of a four banger? It seems like a good overall value package. I like the interior quality of the Accord, a great history (not sure about the automatic tranny) good seats, and overall fit and finish of the Honda. Why not try them both. See how the price compares, the ride, consider resale value, engine smoothness, and you know the whole deal, then decide if it is worth venturing into something new. Spend some time at the dealerships to see what they feel like to you. I admire what Hyundai did to turn the ship around. Equally, I admire the Honda company for excellence in engine building, and innovation on so many products over the years. Had a couple of their motorcycles. Great race car engines, to lawnmower engines. They are even building robots. Would be proud to own a Honda. This doesn't mean buying a Hyundai is not a reasonable thing to do. Sure, you are venturing in to the unknown as you would any significantly new automobile. Risk/reward is buying at a less cost in, and reward is if it all works out over the years.
If you buy and sell often, or are uncertain you will keep the Hyundai, I would be a bit leery of resale values in the three to five year range. If you believe all Korean cars to be junk, by all means never buy a car with that attitude. You will spend day and night trying your best to find something wrong. I too like Honda, but see no reason to be so down on Hyundai, or JD Power.
-Loren
you have 5 years left to hate hyundai.
if hyundai still gathers awards after awards, good reviews after good reviews in year 2011, then stop all the doubting because ya'll run out of excuses.
5 years folks, then it's the expiration date.
hyundai will have full lineups of great cars with a great value(including hybrids and pickup trucks) with a PROVEN TRACK RECORD. of course, i'm not a psychic, but i know for a fact that companies like hyundai won't gamble; they will take toyota's routes.
if people still hating on hyundai, they must owned an Excel before. they probably watched glengary glenn ross 20 times.
by the way, i'm not a homer. i'm an acura owner who owned bmw 325i and an 03 accord coupe.
We finally agree. The Sonata is a fine vehicle and good competitor. Hyundai is using it to buy it's place in the American market a la HonYota in the early 90's. Break even or a small loss to establish it's reputation is not a bad policy if it can secure 200,000 units of profitable production on an ongoing basis in years to come.
IMO the pricing is artificial but still smart for the time being.
Question: Now that Hyundai has begun to prove it's quality at least initially would you pay $24,000 for a V6 LX? This is the same 'air' as the CamCords.
In the US market only is Honda is considered to be one of the 'premier' automakers. In most other places Honda is far far down the list - including in Japan where it is 3rd like Chrysler.
The US market is arguable the most important auto market for Honda.
Car makers will keep all the profits you allow them to keep. If you foolishly pay $5K too much, they will happily stuff it into their pockets, not into making a better car. If you refuse to play their game and choose to pay a fair price, they still make plenty profits for R&D and plant improvements. You can get caught up in that game the manufacturers try to play, and one-up your neighbors if that's your thing. If you need a comfortable, reliable car for the daily commute, you don't have to spend the kid's inheritance to get one.
Absolutely not. That would mean I would buy a Sonata at list price, or at best for a lesser discount than an Accord or even a Camry. Why would I, or anyone, do that in today's ultra-competitive market for mid-sized cars?
jd power is a big joke? well then so is car and driver. At least jd power is a survey of 100 owners vs 100 owners. And not about sale figures or glory days reputation.
So I think I can reasonably extrapolate this experience to the '06 Sonata, which is a big jump ahead of that old Elantra in quality from everything I have experienced and read about it. Every bit of evidence shows that Hyundai has improved significantly in quality in the past six years, not gone backwards. The engines are designed to last 300,000 miles without a breakdown. The latest computer-assisted engineering and manufacturing techniques have been applied. Everything Hyundai has learned in the past six years has gone into making the Sonata a better car than the '01 Elantra. Thus I think there is a very high probability that the '06 Sonata will "stand the test of time." Is that a certainty? No; nor do we know for certain how cars like the '06 Accord and '07 Camry will hold up relative to the Sonata.
Manufacturers aren't stupid. They know they must produce a reliable product. Cars manufacturing has long been "mature". They all use the latest ISO standards. They all rely on proven technology, and learn from their own mistakes and the mistakes of others. Even without extensive R&D, there is enough advanced yet proven technology on the market to produce reliable, comfortable cars that will satisfy 80% of their market.
The best cars in the segment are only slightly better than the worst, and then not even in all metrics. Much of it boils down to taste and perception. There will always be a few afficoanado's that will argue with this. They have been taken in by advertising hype, and some even believe that cars somehow have a "soul". It's fine for them to believe that, but I don't trust their advice. They tend to be too biased.
And to whoever posted this - JD Power is a reputable recongition. Toyota/Hyundai/Honda all did very well from the recent IQS in the midsize segment. As a whole, Hyundai nameplate slightly topped Toyota/Honda - this should not discredit JD Power nor Toyota/Honda. All three automakers make great cars. Let's leave the igorance out please.
When Hyundai decides to cashin on it's new found reliability and eliminates rebates/discounts..... ???
Since the new camry is a total redesign this year, how can you predict its reliability. One can only hope it continues on with bullet proof reliability of past generations. I know the 4 cyl is a carry over, but the V6 and 6 spds are new so is the platform. So im my eyes the camry is pretty much sitting exactly where the Sonata is, a new unproven vehicle. While some will argue toyata's expertise at building vehicles, i will argue there's been some bugs already in the vehicle, so it appears the camry hasnt come out the gate bulletproof.
But again, I understand what you by it having the possibility of having problems.
Do you view equilibrium as a $5000 differential? $4000? $2000?
For example, all Lexus vehicles are $5000 to $10,000 cheaper than their Mercedes-Benz counterparts, but I think many Lexus vehicles are at least as good, sometimes even better.
There is also the potential sales impact of the ending of the Hyundai Advantage warranty after the 2008 MY. That is the target previously set by HMA, but that of course could change.
When Hyundai decides to cashin on it's new found reliability and eliminates rebates/discounts..... ???
What do you mean? The Sonata will always cost $5K less than comparably equipped Accords and Camrys. Hyundai has already stated they are aiming for for market share. What they don't make on outrageous per-unit profit, they will make up for in total units sold. Hyundai is the world leader in robot manufacturing and one of the top electronics manufacturers in the world. They know more about technology and automation than the rest put together. They should be great at the cutthroat pricing game from their years of experience in the world of low-margin electronics components manufacturing. (Said Bob, as he gazed into his beautiful Hyundai 19" flat panel monitor).
Hyundai may take a while to catch to #4 honda though anytime soon(maybe 2009 +) but being top 5 in automobile sales i think gives this company respect it has deathly worked for.
Two cars everyone should be anticipating should be the affordable 08 tiburon and equus
1 General Motors 8,381,805
2 Toyota Motor Corp. 8,120,000
3 Ford Motor Co. 6,208,700
4 Volkswagen AG 5,242,793
5 DaimlerChrysler AG 4,854,700
6 Hyundai-Kia Group 3,715,095
7 Nissan Motor Co. 3,597,748
8 PSA/Peugeot-Citroen SA 3,390,000
9 Honda Motor Co. 3,365,000
10 Renault SA 2,533,428
Honda is 9th, according to the list. Do you mean the US market?
Additionally, I would also add "EN", a crossover, Tibby 'vert, Accent SR, Sonata variants, a sports wagon, etc. to the futures list...few unconfirmed at this point
I totally agree, isnt the Equus already on sale in another country ? is this the verison bound for the U.S. or will there be a redesigned model
It will be competely different than the current model sold in the home market. The current model is FWD, and the upcoming "BH" is RWD.
I understand where you are coming from.... but imho, most of what draws me to the Hyundai Sonata more than Toyota Camry or Honda Accord is that you get a car which has most, if not, all the standard features (or even more depending on what you are looking for in the car). You get this, a better overall warranty, and of course you will be paying thousands less as well. Now... just taking into account these factors... I can't see why I would want to buy a Honda or Toyota. Yes I see where you are coming from in terms of proven track record, but understand Toyota and Honda had to go through the same or simular type of breaking through period. There cars kept getting better and better as years went buy. Hyundai is reaching the same ground as Honda and Toyota did way back then. As far as being a tightwad.... I guess some people see the value in saving money and purchasing a Sonata which very well could last as long or longer than its competitors. And then some people will pay the premium to have that proven track record... in the end its all about are you happy with your purchase 2, 5, or 10years from now.
I personally have been a Honda fan for a long time. Been through couple of Civics and Accords - currently own two Hondas. Each time when it is time for me to switch to a new car, I test drove at least 5 models and analyse numbers(essentially the total ownership cost) to death before I purchase them. Each time, the answer was Honda.
I have to admit, this is the first time I am seriously considering a non-Honda for a long time. Which manufacturer? Hyundai. In this case, it was Odyssey vs Entourage/Sedona (Currently tilting towards Entourage EX Leather over Odyssey EX-R). I have also compared Accord vs Sonata and I must admit it isn't an easy choice! If I had to choose now I would probably pick Accord EX V6 over Sonata GLS Premium (only $20 difference per month on a 4 year lease deal), but I have to admit, Sonata is much better than I expected!
For those who are bashing on Hyundai - have you guys actually drove Sonata? Have you done any research on the net for some factual records over the past few years on Hyundai?
In my opinion, there are risks purchasing all vehicles. Honda and Toyota gives you higher probability that you will have less trouble based on their track record. I am willing to bet that reliabiity gap between Accord and Sonana is much smaller than what some of you make it out to be. If they command same monthly payment, I would pick Accord as well since it is less likely to go wrong. But as a new vehicle, I like both just as much.
You know this for a fact?
They know more about technology and automation than the rest put together
You know this for a fact also? If so, did they just learn it last night because until the last two years their worldclass knowledge didn't produce any spectacular vehicles. In fact their worldclass robotic knowhow produced some of the worst in this market. what an amazing moment it must have been when they awoke one morning smarter and better than everybody else when just the night before they were on the bottom of the heap.
More likely it was just a decision to stop screwing around and do the job right and stop sending junk over to the US.
If the sonata costs the American buyer $5K less than the equivalent Japanese model and the Corolla and Civic continue to fight the Sonata tooth and nail for the $18K buyer, then all is good with the world in the eyes of Toyota and Honda and Nissan.
Advantage Accord has is also the disadvantage. The car is going to change next year so it is not the latest rendition. The good is that the bugs are worked out. The bad is that any major change hits your value and possibly the way you see your new car as old in one year. So you must decide if this is a blessing or not. We all know Sonata and Camry will have a few little quirks being new. Do you want to venture into the new zone, or go for the safety of the known?
As far as looks go, the Azera may be the only hope of escaping the Accord look. Sure, the Sonata is different, but by what margin. The whats to like is in the value though. Sort of like a Honda on the cheap. Like I said before, be sure to make a list and check everything. Be sure that what is important to you is the same as the great one.
Trying to find a different look is not too easy. The Fusion looks pretty fresh. Now I see the 2007 Sentra is moving towards that look. Sometimes I consider getting back to GM after all these years apart. Why you ask? They have something a little different like Cadillac (used) and the Monte Carlo (yeah i know it is different) and well even the LaCrosse which looks unique. I guess an Azera or a Camry would look fresh enough. What was Toyota thinking on that funny nose on the front? I must say, looks wise the awesome car is the Tiburon. Would my back like getting in and out of that thing every day -- possibly not. I may want a little larger car anyway. But the look is so cool. Only dislike is the tall doors. Everyone has those.
Anyone considering the Ford Five Hundred? Not a fancy look, a little bit of a sleeper, but it has some good attributes. And then there is the Altima, which still looks cool today. I think it has a style advantage over the other Japan and Korean makes. Well sort of a Passat rip-off.
-Loren
If I didn't know better, I would swear those words sounded like sour grapes.
I'm only keeping my Sonata for 10 years and 150K miles, so it doesn't have to be bullet proof. The car has already completed 5% of its long journey. I have to admit I feel smarter and smarter with every trouble-free month that goes by. I don't need to convince anyone about anything. I try my best to be logical about cars, not emotional. And I certainly don't need to pay $5K extra for a track record. The only track record that matters to me is my own. My last 2 choices were excellent, and I think this one is just as good. My last car was 11 years old, and did not spend a day in the shop. My current truck is 14 years old, and besides the air conditioner, hasn't spent a day in the shop.
Hyundai, to their credit, offers the longest warranty, and has a good near term reliability survey records. Personally, I would watch the Sonata and the competition forums to see what people are saying about their new car. Sure, there will be some bull. Maybe some posting under several different names will stink up the boards. But if you see many people saying the same thing about an issue with the car, and can even back it up by going to other boards, it is possible you found a gremlin in the workings of the car. My guess is that the Sonata may have some and equally so the Camry may have some new car gremlins in there to take care of. Some may be thinking that the Hyundai is not a good long term car. Well there are people which say they loved their long term experience with their Hyundai. That said, the more years you go back in time, the less perfect the cars looked. Like the Japanese, they listened to the customers, researched, and took care of problems as time went by. The long warranty is Testament to that. You are not sure about us, so we are going to be with you with a warranty to give some assurance to your buy.
If nothing else, try the different cars. Close the doors to hear the sound as they close, roll the electric windows up and down to hear them, see if the glove box door meets up tight and has no slack when it shuts, try the knobs to see if they feel solid or like toys parts, drive over rough roads, and at freeway speeds to see how it handles the wind.
One problem is too chatty salespeople. You can not listen to the car. My test drive in the Mustang was a little that way. Something about the seating position, even with the height adjustments did not feel right. Sort of like the dash was too high, and the car felt big for some reason. It is a little more so that the last model, but not that much. That wonderful instrument cluster, they rave about, wasn't too cool by me. Maybe I need another test run, but the car seem cheaper inside than before for plastics ( i know i am a minority opinion on that ) and it feel all that snappy to drive. It was the V6, but it got good reviews. Maybe another run is needed, with more attention to car, and less talk by the salesperson?
-Loren
Back to the subject though. I saw a rendering of the next Mazda6. My goodness that car is beautiful. Maxda's design is one of the best in the market right now.
I am also very interested in seeing the new Altima. They gave it a lot of styling cues from the 350Z which is real sweet. The 6 and Altima may not be the most premium or the best value but they are going to be the lookers again and probably the best performers. Nissan has publicly stated it set out to make the best front wheel drive car on the market with the new Alti. THe Mazda6 already holds that crown. Should be fun over the next twelve months.
Oh Sonata church has started mass again. First, the obvious, you can not logically compare a Sonata to anything greater than its segment, i.e. BMW, Lex, Merc, several others. A car is not a car. For example an Acura TL and an Infiniti G35, same price range, two very diferent cars. Not all the clever advertising is ment for deception. Mazdas are indeed fun to drive. I have heard that unanimously. VW do have excellent attention to detail and high quality (not to be confused with reliability). The Accord, is the Accord. Aside from cost, you'd find few that would argue it isn't the best car in its segment. Sometimes marketing does follow reality. Not all buyers are conditioned. Many make enough money where price is NOT there cheif concern. And that my friends, is perfectly OK.
If by that you mean putting down my hard-earned money to learn what it is like to own Hyundais and see how reliable they are, then that is true. I have learned through my ownership experience that Hyundais are as reliable as any other makes I have owned over the past 30 years--including Hondas, Toyotas, Mazdas, and Nissans. I could easily afford to buy more expensive cars. But I'd rather use that extra money for other things than a depreciating lump of metal and plastic. The Sonata offers all I need in a mid-sized car. Why pay a lot more and in some ways get less?
Do you mean the 03 Accord buyers got all that proven reliability? The popping welds on body twisting into driveways, the hard seat, the steering wander, the transmission problems in many Hondas, the steering leads (did that require engine cradle readjustments?), and all the ones from the discussions I've forgotten?
I have Enron stock to offer you if you want historic reliability and assume it applies to the future! :P
People who are test driving and looking at other cars, e.g., Sonata, are going to end up with a choice better suited to their purpose. Lemmings get their Enron stock, Worldcom, Avalons, transmission shift lags, etc., based on extrapolating past quality to future performance.
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