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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread



  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    A someone already stated, the Impala and GXP offer 303hp for the price of an Accord EX V6. The Accord is far from the most powerful family sedan on the market. As for mileage, the Impala SS gets 18/28 which is by no means gas guzzler territory. The GM cars have the most hp in the segment, not the camry. The camry's engine is impressive but it's only 28 more hp than the GP had in 1998 and 8 more than the 2004 GP offered so pardon me if I'm not blown away.

    The Aura hybrid is due out in late 2006 or ealy 2007, not a year from now. Ford has a hybrid Fusion coming for 2008. I doubt they will make the same mistake as honda and price their hybrids over $30k and gear them for performance. That is just silly. Most people are expecting the Aura hybrid to be around $25k to start and offer mileage gains similar to the Accord hybrid. I'm not going ot try to defend the Altima hybrids because Nissan is making a mistake in offering the car in limited markets. Very stupid.

    The question isnt whether or not Honda will go all out, the question is whether or not it's possible to create a class dominating benchmark in today's market. The answer is no. The camry probably beats all the competition that existed when it launched, but it will hardly be considered the hands down champion once the Altima and Aura hit the streets. Even the Sebring may be competitive based on what I've read so far.

    Has anyone seen the changes to the '07 Fusion? It got navigation, AWD, mp3 jack, standard side/curtain airbags and satelite radio. It really needed those changes big time but I dont understand why Ford wont offer stability on its cars.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Objectively speaking, the Sonata 3.3L V6 is more than adequate for the needs of today's driving. The engine is smooth and extremly quite, even at full throttle.

    I wonder, how many horsepowers do we need in a family sedan? Is 500hp enough? ;)

    By the way, as for this discussion, midsize sedans, I wasn't aware Toyota and Nissan, respectively, are hitting 300+hp with their offering of family sedans.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    I think not. The Camry MPG figures are 22/31, which considering the HP is outstanding at 268 HP. The gas mileage of DoD depends on it being babied along. The 18/28 MPG sounds good. If you want a V8 just get a Northstar if GM is your thing. Going to get 24 MPG or better without all the razzle dazzle DoD thing. My guess is that both engines achieve around the same real world gas mileage.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    If horsepower is the only factor considered when buying a car then we'd all own a Mustang GT. The Accord's fit, finish, and feel is superior to all in its class, and this is for a car designed 5 years ago.

    Yea this sector has changed a lot since the CamCord only days, but the CamCord still dominates, and they don't have to give them away to get the sales.

    The new Accord will be sweet. An Indy 500 engine wrapped up in a aircraft cockpit feeling body. Count on it.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    The question isnt whether or not Honda will go all out, the question is whether or not it's possible to create a class dominating benchmark in today's market. The answer is no.

    The answer is YES. Honda always does very well in comparisons. Why? you might ask. Because the Accord is so well thought out. The people who do comparison tests do more than just test drive the cars. They actually test them. Experienced testers know what to look for, and what is most important to the average consumer. Honda can make the Accord as good as they need it to be. The Accord is never the smooth est riding, the quiet est, the best handling, or the best looking car in the comparisons. It usually comes out on top (or near the top) because of how it works in everyday use. The Accord just seems to find that perfect balance, and has that special feel, that others can't match. It may not win the 07 comparison tests, but it will do more than hold it's own against much newer competition. The Camry may win this year, but it's time on top will be short lived (one year).
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    BMW- for one pure status symbol. You pay alot of money for status and an unreliable vehicle. If you coulc get past the status thing... take a look at some stats of vehicles that do cost even 1/2 the price. Some out accelerate the BMW, out slalom, out brake ect for thousands less..
    But I guess if you want just status.. and a car that says.. look at me!@ I make more money than you.. my dad didn't hug me enough.. .. ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    the Impala SS gets 18/28 which is by no means gas guzzler territory.

    If you plan on using any of that 303 hp, you will be guzzling some gas. If you're going to baby it enough to get that kind of mileage, you might as well get a 4 cyl. Only 4 cylinders will be firing anyway.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    about HP wars.. how much HP is really enough for a family sedan? 200? 300? 500? 1000?? Its almost like the manufacturers are concentrating so hard on winning HP awards they seem to forget about functionality, ride, handling, balance.
    For me, I don't need a 300HP family sedan. If I wanted that kind of power I would buy a Mustang, Charger, or soon to be Camaro. My message to manufactures.. get back to basics for the family sedan, your getting off track with all the hype over HP and 0-60 numbers. With traffic the way it is now in most major cities.. you'll never get to use it anyway.. :sick:
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    V8...and that in itself would turn a number of buyers away without even lookin at the gas mileage....the fact that the car has a V8 engine.

    Further, I did not say the Accord was the most powerful, but that it had more horsepower than MANY of its competitors (Fusion, Sonata, Mazda6, Malibu, just to name a few)

    And if you'd take the time to read my posts you'd see that I ACKNOWLEDGED that the Domestic were far ahead in the horsepower game back in the 80s and 90s...

    I don't think what Nissan is doing is stupid with the Hybrid. So far Hybrids still have limited appeal...I think they are waiting to see how Toyota and Honda's hybrid vehicles pan out before they get into the game. I think Nissan is ONLY using the Hybrid so that it can met some type of gas mileage requirement (or so I heard, and I work for a Nissan dealer now)

    I'm not a betting man...but I'm sure Honda is going to do what it did the last time they had to redesign a car...benchmark everybody...they always do because they get the extra year to work out the kinks and add some features.

    Back when the Camry and new Altima hit the scene in 2001, EVERYBODY thought the Accord was doomed...nope...2003 came along...and Honda was once again the benchmark.

    Let's be real...if Honda can design Acura's cars to at least be competitive in some shape or form with their luxury counterparts, what in the world makes you think Honda can't do the same thing...

    Also, the difference between what Honda does compared to Toyota and Nissan is this...every time the Camry or Altima get's redesigned, it leapfrogs the Accord a bit...but by the time the new Accord comes out it continues ruling until the next "new" generation of cars comes out. Case in just about ALL comparisons with the Accord vs. the competition it comes in first place (except: Consumer Reports and test of the 'Nata V6 vs I4 Camcords and maybe one other test)

    But any other comparison test done by say Car and Driver, Road and Track and Motor Trend that compares the Accord with the Camry, Altima, Sonata and others, the Accord usually comes out on top unless a new camry hits the lots...and by the next year Honda takes over again.

    The Camry might be the bigger seller, but OVERALL, it's the Accord that's considered the benchmark of this has almost always been that way. In Comparison test, its the Accord that usually always wins...and even in the days when the Accord ONLY made 200 hp vs. the 240 in the Accord and 225 in the Camry the Accord usually STILL won...and if it didn't it was so close with the Camry that they nearly tied (recent comparo)

    Now that's refinement and that's the quality of a "benchmark" sedan.

    I'm not a Honda bragger (I drive a Nissan) but this is the way it almost ALWAYS turns out.

    When the Accord is redesigned, it will be another 3 plus years before the "compeition" is redesigned again (except for the Malibu and Mazda6)

    So as I have stated, if Honda has come through time and time again with competitive products, I'm doubting Honda will fail.

    The competition will enjoy one short and sweet year of wins, but then will loose for the next three to four.

    Same thing goes for the Odyssey vs. the Sieanna, Corolla vs. the Civic...and Pilot vs. the Highlander. In comparison tests the Honda counterparts usually win (except with maybe the Trucks...Ridgeline is UGLY)

    But you get my drift.

    If Honda plays is cards right (and avoids the styling of the Civic) the Accord will be fine...and I work for a Nissan dealership....and I'll be the first to admit that...folks really will play on the "value" card then.

    I can only imagine what Sonata's will be going for about that time...$13K for a Sonata Limited? :D
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    if they can offer more horsepower and continue to IMPROVE gas mileage, I don't have a problem with it...but if it gets to a point where gas mileage suffers...THEN I'll worry about reducing the horsepower in favor of better gas mileage...

    Toyota seems to have a good combo of both...I expect similar results from Honda next year.

    Is the Fusion getting the 3.5 or not?
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    You often cite that the Camry only narrowly outpointed the Accord in the recent comparison test, however, the scores don't always tell the whole story.

    The folks at said themselves: "With the anticipation of parents watching their child win a spelling bee with the final letter, we watched the Camry's point total edge out the Accord's by a 0.64 margin. Despite what this might indicate, there really was no dispute regarding which of these four cars should win the comparison.

    In truth, however, after the first five minutes behind the wheel of the all-new 2007 Camry, each evaluator came away with the same impression: "This is a Camry?" Every so often, an automaker produces something so extraordinary that it manages to not only eclipse its own predecessor, but also succeeds in making the competition appear obsolete."

    Those are pretty strong words.

    "I think they [Nissan] are waiting to see how Toyota and Honda's hybrid vehicles pan out before they get into the game. I think Nissan is ONLY using the Hybrid so that it can met some type of gas mileage requirement (or so I heard, and I work for a Nissan dealer now)"

    Uhm, what? The success of the Prius, the RX-h, GS-h the Highlander Hybrid, and the wait lists for this Camry arent indication?

    And actually, in the case of the Civic vs. Corolla, its the opposite scenario- the Corolla has the benefit of second release, and with the last generation, outpointed the Civic (reference: C/D comparo, Nov 2002 of 2003 models).

    "If Honda plays is cards right (and avoids the styling of the Civic) the Accord will be fine...and I work for a Nissan dealership....and I'll be the first to admit that...folks really will play on the "value" card then."

    Again, what? The Civic is selling over 10% better than its predecessor, has won numerous awards, from Motor Trend's Car of the Year to the first in class EVER to achieve a Gold IIHS recognition for Front, Side, and Rear impact protection. So what is the negative of the Civic....

    But wait, you reminded us... this is a comparison about the Midsize Sedans.

    So what's your point?

  • ykangykang Posts: 88
    If Sonata limited is selling for $13k I would buy 10. What is wrong with that Hyundai provide decent car at a frugal price? If there are so many choices with competition isn't it good for consumers? Why are you complaining?
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    Alpha...if you want to further discuss details on my theories on the STYLING of the Civic since that I find so negative with the car in my previous post...hit my e-mail, seeing as the Accord has gotten so much slack for its styling, I don't think Honda would want to risk styling like the Civic on the Accord..that was my point... :confuse:

    But back to the point was that typically Honda's vehicles do better in comparison to others in the class...and I will continue to believe that they will do the same thing again..they always have... Honda's have typically done VERY well in comparsion with other vehicles...not in just the midsize realm but in other classes as well.

    And you are right, what Edmunds had to say about the Camry and Accord makes perfect sense, sometimes it's not about the numbers (as many a Camcordnata owner can tell you.) but when the cold data is that close, credit is still due to those who deserve it. I'm quite impressed that even despite it's age, the Accord was BARELY beaten by the Camry in a comparison test. Impressive in the least. Rather the Camry was "the winner" based on other reasoning, the fact that the Accord still came that close despite it's age is downright impressive and makes me wonder just what Honda's gonna do next. :)

    The Prius and Highlander are in a TOTALLY different class from the Accord, Camry and POINT was that Nissan's Altima Hybrid is simply a vehicle Nissan is using to get a few Hybrid sales here and there and that Ghosn doesn't believe in the technology. So they are "testing" the waters with a limited number of Hybrid Altimas. I won't see one in South Carolina... As one can see the Accord didn't do so hot (V6-performance based) but the Camry seems to be succesful so far. And your whole point on successful Hybrids is nice, except for the fact that Nissan would have no idea that Camry Hybrids would be on waiting list when they planned their Hybrid with Toyota.

    Just because cars like the PRIUS sell, doesn't mean the comparable midsize sedans with the technology will sell as well, aka the Accord, even though it has a rather strange V6/Hybrid combo. Camry Hybrid is a success because Toyota is the leader in the technology. Nissan is just getting into it...with the use of Toyota's older system...I don't think Nissan would see the same success as Toyota, Honda or even Ford if they produced Hybrid Altimas... Further, Nissan isn't really known for gas mileage so chances are it would be a wash. Nissan is tight with the all mighty dollar, they aren't going to invest in something that they don't believe in..rather they are wrong or right.

    And as far as "complaining" about 13K Sonata Limited? You won't see me complaining about one...chances are, I'll probably scoop one up for my if they ever do get that cheap, I'll buy two as well. It was a joke...because can't some folks get Sonata LX's for like 17K now already?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The Accord hybrid is without a doubt a FLOP...but I bet the next one will be an I4 and will do better.

    I have a feeling that based on the HAH experience that Honda will stay away from hybrids for larger vehicles concentrating on the HCH and the Fit hybrid.

    Now for the Accord, Ody, MDX, Pilot..... diesel. Blam same savings as the hybrids with proven experience.

    The really huge problem is to educate the public that it's OK and 'green' to drive a diesel. The new technology might be somewhat costly too - but then so are hybrids and the task is to reduce the cost.

    Now combine both technologies and somebody has a huge jump on the market. Wanna bet 6 big companies ( MB, T, GM, H, BMW, F ) are all hiding some really interesting technology waiting for the ULSD to be available everywhere here.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    but one thing Honda does learn quickly...if they make a mistake with one product, but the market turns out to be a profitable or good "PR" move, they'll redo it and get it right the next time. Gen 1 Odyssey to 2 ring a bell.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Comparison shoppers may note that pricing for the 2006 Honda Accord - one of the AURA primary competitors - starts at a little over $18,000. However, the base Accord only comes with a 4-cylinder coupled to a manual transmission; the 4-cylinder automatic Accord starts at over $19,000. Meanwhile, the AURA XE comes with a standard V6 and is equipped with more standard equipment that the Accord. Honda's better equipped automatic Accord V6 starts at over $25,000."

    snippet: only comes with a 4-cylinder ...Meanwhile, the AURA XE comes with a standard V6

    I mentioned in a prior post that I like the look of the Aura very much and it should be a worth competitor in the field ..'.if GM doesn't screw it up.' I think they just did. IMO that have just marginalized it to the relatively small part of the midsized market that wants a V6 in lieu of the efficiency of the I4. Honda, Toyota and Nissan all sell well in excess of 60% of their vehicles as I4's. GM just told all these frugal shoppers to 'Get lost, go see the transplants' Yes there is still a large part of the market that wants V6 power and they may be able to fill the plant with V6's but GM is attempting to impose its product mentality on the market. IMO this can only end in failure or marginalizing the vehicle. I think it just became a small niche player like the Mazda's.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yes all vehicles are safer than 20 yrs ago but there is simply no reason for the F/M twins to rank 18th out of 18 in the midsized sedan segment at the IIHS.

    This is a completely new design following the Five Hundred which is ranked first in it's class.

    The vehicle aside this is a massive corporate crime on the part of the product managers and plant managers and engineers at Ford to allow its new flagship midsize sedan to fail to show well. Heck it ranks below the outdated Chrysler product. Any rational buyer looking for safety will immediately eliminate the Ford entries from consideration.

    If any Ford manager/engineer involved with the crash testing of the F/M twins survived this fiasco it would shock me. It makes the vehicle look unnecessarily bad>

    Who wants their brand spanking new vehilce to be rated last from jump street?
  • cm77cm77 Posts: 12
    Mazda 3 vs. Honda Civic EX


    Mazda 6 vs. Honda Accord EX

    All 4 cylinder engines.

    Which car would you choose and why?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'd go with Hondas because of personal experience, and my bias towards economy. Also, the relatively poor reliability I read/hear about with the Mazda 6 put me off. I like the Mazda 3s, since it's more of a sporty compact than the Civic, but since that car (Mazda 3) only manages to get the same mileage as the Honda Accord (26/34), a much larger car with more horsepower and weight than the 3, it went off my list. Also, the Honda's have better standard safety features and did better in crash tests. That became a big deal to me after chewing on a guardrail in my 1996 Accord last year.

    Just my opinion, and I drive two Hondas, so I'm definitely biased, but keep in mind that I'm biased for a reason!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731


    Some pics of the Sebring interior. Take note, the cupholder is refridgerated.
  • cxccxc Posts: 122
    Most people agree that 2006 BMW 330 is a driving machine with both speed and dynamic while 2007 V6 Camry is a quick runner. The specified horsepower and torque of Camry V6 are higher than those of BMW 330. You have to ask what makes BMW a driving machine with legendary driving dynamic. Besides suspension, tires, etc., average torque is a key. Average torques for 2006 BMW 330, Sonata, Camry, and Accord are as follows:

    BMW 330: 255HP@6600 rpm, 220 ft-lbs@2750 rpm, average torque= 0.080 ft-lbs/rpm
    Sonata :235 HP@6000rpm, 226 ft-lbs@3500 rpm, average torque=0.065 ft-lbs/rpm
    Camry: 268 HP@6200 rpm, 248 ft-lbs@4700 rpm, average torque = 0.053 ft-lbs/rpm
    Accord: 244HP@6224rpm, 211 ft-lbs@5000 rpm, average torque = 0.041 ft-lbs/rpm

    The average torque of BMW 330 is about 50% higher than that of Camry, and about 100% higher than that of Accord. If BMW responds to the press of its acceleration pedal like a rabbit, both Camry and Accord are like a turtle especially when cars are moving. Sonata is more responsive than both Camry and Accord, but not near BMW. This is why Lexus IS350 having an average torque of 0.057 ft-lbs/rpm is a loser in the comparison test with BMW330 although IS350 has 300 HP and 277 ft-lbs torque.
  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    I don't think average torque has anything to do with responsiveness.

    Its about where in the RPM range the maximum torque happens. If it happens at a low RPM, the car will be more responsive off the line; if it occurs at higher RPM, the car will take off at higher revs. While on the move, there are many variables like gearing, and thats where BMWs shine.

    As for the IS 350 losing to the 330 in a comparison test; I haven't seen any test where the 330 has beaten the IS 350 in acceleration tests, whether 0-60 or in-gear acceleration on the move (mind you, most comparisons have an auto IS 350 v/s a manual 330 since Lexus does not offer manual IS 350s. Even then the IS 350 beats the BMW in measured tests. BMWs are not only about acceleration, they are about handling preciseness, steering response, driving feel etc., that's why the 3 series consistently beats competition that is quicker than it.

    Neither have I seen any instrumented tests where the Sonata is more responsive on the move than an Accord or the new Camry.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Pedal response is 90% in how the throttle is tuned to deliver the power. My girlfriend's mother's Lexus GX470 (4.7 liter V-8 - gobs of torque compared to anything mentioned above) has an extremely long pedal travel, with very gentle throttle tip-in relative to my I-4 Accord, which jumps off the line with 1 inch of throttle input. Both are elcetronically controlled throttles.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    I think ESC kicks in and prevents wheel spin, which is normally a good thing. ;)
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    The following press release is about the 2007 Santa Fe, but what caught my eye was this:

    "an optional navigation system
    available in 2007."

    This may mean that Navi will be available next year on the Sonata as well. 6/0004385601&EDATE=
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Posts: 508
    The Accord Hybrid may be a bit of a sales flop, but its still a pretty special car...its a total rocket that gets 4 cyl gas mileage. Its not supposed to be an economy car and its not. But if you are performance oriented, its a great choice.
  • ace35ace35 Posts: 131
    I must admit, the interior is pretty nice looking, i just hope the dash materials are not as hard as they appear in the photo. I think the interior works just fine, but what has Chrysler done to the exterior of this car, the design does not flow well at all for me, it looks clunky and bloated. Hopefully it just doesnt photograph well. We'll see.
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    I think it has to do with a hybrid 6 versus a hybrid 4. Although the Accord Hybrid sales have flopped, in my area neither the Hybrid Highlander nor the RX is selling quite well. Honda has the highest CAFE of all major brands. The Civic hybrids are selling quiet well and like the Toyota Hybrid Camry are mostly pre-sold, as are the Prius. At one of my local Toyota dealerships, they had 30 Hybrid Highlanders in stock. Another dealership was giving $4k off of sticker, and they had 15 units. When I attended a workshop on the Toyota hybrids - the dealer said that they had "plenty of inventory" on the Hybrid Highlander. When I went to the Lexus dealership to look at the regular RX, that dealership had 15 Hybrids in stock. Carsdirect was giving ample discounts on the RX hybrid The benefit of the Hybrids with 6 appears marginal at best in terms of fuel economy versus a gasoline 4 (like the Camry or the Accord).
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    In case you didnt know the Northstar isnt really available on anything in this price range. On top of that, the GM cars with the LS4 are faster than the STS because they weigh so much less. I really dont see your point.

    The EPA's figures tend to be optimistic for all cars, not just DoD equipped cars so its silly to act like only GM vehicles wont get the mileage on the stickers.

    The camry's mileage is impressive, but how many miles would one have to drive for the extra 3 to 4 mpg to make a significant difference? The put the DOD cars in perspective, I believe the G35 gets 19/26 and the Mazda 6 with 215hp gets 19/27. When you look at cars other than the camry you see the V8 is pretty efficient.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I think ESC kicks in and prevents wheel spin, which is normally a good thing.

    Huh? My car doesn't have ESC, and the Lexus' throttle tip-in is so senile that it wouldn't chirp the tires unless I pinned the gas pedal to the carpet.
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