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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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I also find it interesting that VW is dropping the price and decontenting the 07 Jetta. The 30,000 Jetta and 36,000
MSRP Passat are a bit much,nice cars I am sure. Old Mike
Since the vast majority of owners have not reported problems it's probably safe to say that the problem can be isolated, such as the 160 V6 units, or is driver related in getting used to the new type of electronic vehicle or is random in the programming which is much more serious until the bug is found.
There have been significant other problems of this nature in recent vehicles which were reported, then investigated then serviced and all of them went away;e.g.
-Sienna gas tank support
-Prius software issue
-4Runner unpainted bumper issue ( sales issue ).
Again I have no doubt that this issue too will be solved in a short time. Whether the solution satisfies 'everyone' is different. Those reporting results on the 160 V6 units all seem quite happy thus far.
In the other forum this link was posted and it is telling:
Oh dang, someone's got that one already.
So who was first? The ads I can recall seeing the ESC as a featured safety item on their autos were the Cadillacs. The StabiliTrak®.
Least expensive with this feature has to be the Hyundai.
-Loren
Isn't watching the moon while driving dangerous. Or do you stop the car first before gazing.
Never understood why people want those, but I guess if it is included for free, for those wanting, then that is a good thing.
-Loren
Maybe that explains why the Sonata's IIHS side crash test score was merely "Acceptable"--it just avoids the vehicles bearing down on it.
The moonroof on my car comes in pretty handy for fresh-air venting w/o a lot of noise or buffeting, and for cooling off the car when parked in warm weather (leave it cracked) and heating it up in cold weather (leave the sunshade open). Funny how you can find yourself "needing" things that you lived most of a lifetime without.
I had one on my Audi. I tried it a couple of times when the car was new, but the exhaust fumes, noise, heat, and dust made me close it after a few minutes. The last 8 or 9 years it was never opened. It also had a little wind noise when closed. I said "never again". I guess it would have been OK, but I seldom drive in the country.
I actually did use the moonroof feature, literally, once, on a 626. It was on a date a long time ago on a beautiful moonlit night. Nice feature.
NEW FOR 2007
MSRP reductions from $500 – $800 on GLS 4-cylinder models
New SE model features standard 17-inch wheels and tires and a 234 hp. 3.3 liter V-6 engine
New top-of-the-line Limited model features a new chrome grille and an optional Infinity® premium CD changer audio system
Five star crash safety rating
Dark Cherry Red and Natural Khaki added to paint choices
Black leather interior optional on Limited trim
XM® satellite radio standard (late availability)
Engines now meet Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (LEV-II ULEV)
Improved steering wheel audio controls (late availability)
More standard features and options available across the entire line - http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/sonata/pricing/pricing.aspx | http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/sonata/trim/comparetrim.aspx
What they are probably saying is the '07 GLS (de-contented from the '06 GLS) has more standard features than the '06 GL. In other words, the new lowest trim level has more standard features than the '06 lowest trim level. The same for '07 SE vs '06 GLS (the 6 cyl was an option on the '06 GLS, etc).
And, of course, there's that "late availability" disclaimer which means they could be including late availability features as being "more" stuff than in '06.
The sub-model name change as it applies to the trim line name change will confuse many people.
???
I'm talking about the V6 snap ring issue that Toyota has admitted. If that is not a major defect, I don't know what is. It prevents the car from functioning.
Toyota first admitted the problem more than two months ago. People who bought a V6 Camry as recently as two weeks ago are having the snap ring problem and transmission failure. So this only leads to one conclusion: Toyota is still selling defective cars.
"Whether the solution satisfies 'everyone' is different. Those reporting results on the 160 V6 units all seem quite happy thus far."
First, the Toyota representative has stated that the 160 was an underestimate, and that the number is larger (although still a minority of the cars).
Second, the statement that ALL seem quite happy is simply untrue. There are numerous people who have reported that they are very UNHAPPY with the way that their defective transmission situation has been handled.
Frankly, I think the changing trim line nomenclature for 2007 is a big mistake by Hyundai. A company spends all that money to gain name and trim recognition in the marketplace, and then they go and change it?? Why . . .
Look at the Accord: LX and EX, and it's been that way for a long time. Same with the Camry: the LE, SE, and XLE trims has been around for a long time as well. I'm a fan of Hyundai, but from a marketing perspective, the change in trim lines on the Sonata is a bad move. At the very least, it's confusing to the consumer.
Their option packages, however, are well thought-out for 2007, and now you can get a power driver's seat at a reasonable price.
So, I decided to buy a hybrid car and get the HOV exemption. I've always been impressed with the Honda Accord, and now deals were to be had on Hybrids. I think it looks classy, good interior qualities, and the V6 is powerful and fast. On my test drive, I liked it, but was a little disappointed with the amount of room up front--I've got long legs and felt cramped now matter how hard I tried to adjust everything. Headroom wasn't the best either. I was still seriously considering buying the car, but something made me check out the 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid...
And that's what is now sitting in my driveway. With the tax incentive ($2600) this car is a great deal. In all trim levels, this car is simply a generation ahead of the competition. The Camry's that I've driven in the past have felt too much like Buicks for me---not this one. Body lean is gone. It handles nicely. In the Hybrid, a 45 HP electric motor augments the VTEC 4 cyl with CVT. Its not a slow car. I see that CR had it at 8.4 to 60...Edmunds had it even slower. But Car and Driver had it at 7.7 and Road and Track at 7.3 . It feels high 7's, to me. Today on the way home I was getting 55 mpg while traveling 78 mph.
The interior of this car is just a step ahead of everything else. There really is a difference. The Accord felt like its age after driving the Camry in virtually every regard...the Camry looks fresher, the materials are an even higher quality, the stereo system is outstanding (440 watt JBL), I have steering wheel mounted controls for climate and audio, the car is bluetooth enable, etc etc. And, its incredibly quiet.
So, after resisting for so long....yeah, I'm a believer. you get what you pay for. For $26500 (with a sunroof and mirror package), not including the $2600 tax incentive I'm getting an exceptionally well built, state of the art midsize sedan with luxury features that happens to get 38 mpg. I happen to think it looks great, especially in my Barcelona Red. People who I've shown it to so far are blown away by it.
In all trim levels?
In what ways is the Camry LE 4 cyl. (the volume seller) "a generation ahead" of the Accord LX 4 cyl. or the Sonata GLS?
van
This is exactly why I stated that Hyundai made a marketing mistake here with the reallocation of the Sonata's trim levels, as it does nothing but confuse people.
I guess it could be confusing to current owners, but I don't think it will confuse new customers. They have little frame of reference to get confused with changes. When I go car shopping, the first thing I do is familiarize myself with the packages. It doesn't matter whether they're called package A, B, C or 1,2,3 as long as I know what they are.
Some posts have been removed.
Edit: this post is directed to those who have had a recent post disappear. It's not directed to the post immediately preceding this one.
The V6 snap ring is a major mechanical manufacturing error and while the initial 160 units was an underestimate according to Toyota what I was stating, or meant to state, was that it was not major ( huge numbers ) in relation to the total production.
Satisfaction on the snap ring issue seems universally positive. It's the other issue that several ( 11 ? ) owners have complained about, the rpm spikes. This has nothing to do with the snap ring issue. What seems to be angering those 11 owners is that they feel mistreated.
The former owners are being offered multiple options because of the manufacturing defect, and these owners seem universally happy. The latter group wants the same options and here Toyota has not done anything - yet - pending further investigations.
So depending on the equipment you want on a Sonata, the 2007 may be a better deal or may not be.
Sorry if you are confused about all this. I'm not.
Most people affected by the snap ring issue do seem satisfied, but not all are. Especially the people who recently bought a new V6 Camry with the snap ring issue, long after Toyota acknowledged that the problem exists.
As far as the rpm spike issue goes, I've seen the video and it's definitely not normal. In fact, it looks eerily like a problem we used to have in our former Ford (a van), and the whole transmission itself had to be replaced. If 11 people are posting about it, the overall number of people affected must be quite a bit larger. Hopefully, Toyota will deal with the issue soon.
It's unfortunate because I do think that the Camry V6 is the current best car in its class, but I won't be recommending it to anyone until these transmission issues get resolved.
Sonata and Accord are similar, and they're both closer to the last gen Camry than the current one. From my impression, they are both excellent cars.
Hold down the "alt" key, and press "0233" on the numeric keypad.
If you don't like a car, tell us why you don't like the car without making sweeping generalizations and insults about people who buy them.
I'm not necessarily talking to you, don't take it that way. But if you or anyone wants to discuss this further, I'll be happy to do so in email.
I'll get over it.
But you made the comment that the Camry is a "generation" ahead in ALL trim levels.
I disagree with you when it comes to the volume LE v. Accord LX and Sonata GLS.
I actually think that the Accord interior is nicer than the Camry, so I disagree with you there. The Sonata has a bigger interior. Aside from the standard knee airbag, I don't see what's special about the Camry LE 4 cyl., especially to the point where it's a "generation" ahead.
Agree that the renaming of trim levels is wrong, it has to be one of the most obnoxious moves any of the manufacturers do. Obviously they are trying to trick the general buying public into something they thought they were familiar with. I, too, wish they would just leave them all the same, then the confusion factor is greatly reduced. Mistake or trickery, they almost all do it.
van
I think buyers would be well advised to look at actual options, and not trim level names and badges on the trunk lid. Trim designations are just a marketing tool, and should be ignored when buying.
If I was considering a 2006 Sonata GLS, but decided to wait for a 2007, I wouldn't even consider the 2007 GLS, as it's not the same trim line as the 2006 model - it's the old GL (just renamed). I would buy the SE (the equivalent trim to the 2006 GLS), and in this case, Hyundai has added some value to the middle trim line, including 17" alloys over the 16" alloys.
You should be comparing the content of the 2007 GLS to the 2006 GL. On the other hand, if their is any decontenting going on, I would certainly expect some. Why not, given the increase in the value of the won to the dollar, and the ever decreasing value of the dollar in the world financial markets.
The previous poster makes a good point, forget the trim levels and just look at the options available, and configure your car to what level you desire.
On to a different thread . . .
Fusion was my choice and after owning it now for just over a month, I still enjoy driving this vehicle. No problems, no squeaks or rattles. http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/Porsche_Tops_APEAL_Study.S17- 5.A10587.html take a look... :shades:
Accent: GS (base hatch), GLS, SE
Azera: SE, Limited
Elantra: GLS, SE, Limited
Santa Fe: GLS, SE, Limited
Entourage: GLS, SE, Limited
Sonata: GLS, SE, Limited
So there is logic behind the change. While there is short-term pain, in the long run there will be more consistency across Hyundai's lineup.
Azera: SE, Limited
Elantra: GLS, SE, Limited
Santa Fe: GLS, SE, Limited
Entourage: GLS, SE, Limited
Sonata: GLS, SE, Limited"
I like that. Just easier for the consumer to compare what's what. All brands should institute a similarly consistant trim designation for all their cars.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe leather is standard on all Limited models, including the 2007 Elantra?
Of course, outside style is totally subjective, but in my subjective opinion, the new Camry is significantly fresher looking than the other midsize sedans. I've been driving it since Tuesday morning and its gotten quite a bit of attention--of course, part of that is probably the Barcelona Red paint. I like the Accord styling, but it looks dated next to a Camry. The Sonata to me is sort of a hodge podge--kind of pudgy, nice features like the lamps but not as aggressive looking.
But that's just my opinion. The automotive journalists seem to agree, for whatever that's worth.
The thing I wanted to point out is that I think its way overstating the case to say that the new Camry has had reliability problems. There were some production problems with a couple HUNDRED V6 Camry's. We are talking about one of the highest volume cars in America. I'm not aware of anything else significant that is popping up.
For what it's worth, the new August issue of Consumer Reports came out, and they rated the Accord EX V6 (89 points) higher than the Camry XLE V6 (87 points).
-----------------------
There seem to be two issues with the V6 Camry transmission:
1) Snap ring defect: Toyota recently said that the original estimate of 160 is an underestimate, and did not provide another specific figure.
2) RPM spike issue: Toyota has not publicly acknowledged that this is a problem. We do not know how many cars are/will be affected.
I'm sure that the problematic vehicles are a minority, but I just wouldn't be comfortable with getting a V6 Camry right now until these issues get resolved.
DO NOT lose both master keys!!!!!
I think I would just avoid the cars. Ridiculous. $1 for a key was plenty. I have one now with an immobilizer chip, and I think it is like $30 key. Could be wrong. Anything over a $1 is high, and over $100 something I don't care to pay for and will avoid that car. What else on the car is overpriced? Techno cars and not so friendly to the wallet. My 98 Corolla took a $1 key. It was a great car for the seven years owned. Roll up windows, and manual door locks. No failures at all, and you did not need a key to roll down the windows. Passengers appreciate that roll down windows when they left in the car while you go shopping.
Now let's see, to buy three Camry keys for $400 each is $1,200. I bought a used Mustang 289V8 back around 1970 for about $1,100. Now the same money buys three keys. Well I guess you can still buy a ride for $1,100, but it would be the economy riding mower, and you look a bit silly taking it downtown.
-Loren
Compare the accord Lx se. It offers options going into the Ex pricing area for a little more than the price of a standard Lx
Example: Whoever compared the camry LE to an accord Lx, use the accord Lx Se as it fits better. I personally would compare the camry le to the accord Ex w/o leather for the standard moonroof among other things.
Thanks!!
cj
ps
Its been
in this forum
Anyway, I will read that article once I have my mits on it. Thanks, for the info. I want to see a test of the 4 bangers.
Autoboy16, I would not automaticaly compare the Accord SE to the Camry LE. The Camry LE and the LX Accord are the ones to compare IMO. However, if the Camry LE has alloy wheels and a c/d changer, then you may want to compare it to the Accord SE. The early 2006 Accord brochure referred to the SE as the "LX-SE". Anyway, just my thoughts.