Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

scape2 · October 2006

"You seem to be forgetting about something. If you buy the Accord EX V6 w/leather, you will be driving a higher quality car for 12 years, than a Sonata limited. Are you actually claiming the Sonata is the same quality? You may think so, but I definitely don't."

Once again, this is your perception. You want to pay the extra $3-4,000 for a perception.. go ahead. Me, I'm going to Maui with my $3-4,000.. Taking the family too!... :shades:

scape2 · October 2006

That's not the case in where I live. When I was at my local Ford dealer for a test drive the parking lot was filled by Fusion. Maybe in the heartland the Fusion is selling like hot cakes but I am willing to put down money on saying that's not the case in the coastal states.

Really, what coastal state are you speaking of? I live in a Coastal state and Fusions/Milans are popping up all over.. :surprise:

scape2 · October 2006

"I can sort of attest to that. I have a less than 1 month old Accord. Besides the intermittent rattles now I found a corner of the rubber seal on one of the doors came off! Either they forgot to glue it at the factory or did a sloppy job with it.

Like you I love the drive train and everything else, but the build quality so far has been a huge disappointment. "

What?? Ok, Honda fans.. what do you say about this??

cajuncycler · October 2006

What were the Sonata engineers thinking? Let's put the A/C vents down here, just to be different. Where are we going to put the radio now? We can just cut out a part of the dash and put it there. Bad design, looks awful.

Actually it works quite well for me. The radio knobs are at near eye level. I don't have to take my eyes off the road to scan the lower dash for a button or knob like I did with every GM vehicle I owned. I thought the engineers were pretty clever that way. My only complaint was that they could have included a channel scan button on the steering wheel along with the rest of the audio controls. And looks BTW are subjective. What works for me won't work for you and vice versa. It's ridiculous to argue these points with you.

ykang · October 2006

Actually tamu2002 was replying to my post and agreed with me. Not a single reply from Honda lovers.

venus537 · October 2006

"Once again, this is your perception. You want to pay the extra $3-4,000 for a perception.. go ahead"

Once again you make it clear that you're the final arbitrator of what's perception and what's not. I guess if some consumers are willing to pay more for their Accords than your Fusion, then it must be perception. The alternative would be that Accord is a better car worth the extra money. Geez, that couldn't possibly be true. Trust me, I know better than YOU what defines a higher quality car for me.

kdshapiro · October 2006

It couldn't be people perceive the Accord to be a better and safer car would it? Or maybe the Accord in todays market has really earned it's reputation, and when people buy the badge they are buying the reputation of a rock solid car company. It doesn't matter that some Accords have some issues. No manufacturer is perfect, don't get me started on Hyundai and Kia.

Worth the extra money? I wonder why we all aren't driving Elantras and vacationing in Maui?

venus537 · October 2006

"Like you I love the drive train and everything else, but the build quality so far has been a huge disappointment."

If I was to get a 4 cylinder Accord I would probably get a Japanese made one. I can tell every time within 20 seconds of observations (and I don't mean by looking at the PIN or window sticker) whether an Accord was made in Japan or Ohio. I dont' know why this is, but Japanese made Accords have better built quality.

thegraduate · October 2006

Once again, this is your perception.
You want to pay the extra $3-4,000 for a perception..

Uh, yeah, it is their perception. Just like you percieve the Fusion to have the best exterior style, I perceive the Fusion to have great exterior style and only acceptable interior ergonomics and build quality, just like you 'perceive' the Fusion to be the best value out there. Remember, EVERYTHING here except for things like price and actual dimensions of the vehicles is a 'perception.'

Personally, I 'perceived' the show WifeSwap to be totally stupid, where it apparently garners plenty of ratings. Life is based on perception, where (an overused phrase - but...) Perception is Reality.

thegraduate · October 2006

Ok, I'll bite.

I'd say his/her car is had some minor build issues from the factory. I'd also say that I would be unhappy if my car came like that. I'm a Honda owner. I also feel like the build quality of my 1996 is as good as that of my 2006, and world's ahead of anything else being offered presently (by Honda, Toyota, Ford, Nissan, etc...). Maybe Honda has sacrificed some build quality in order to grow the company...some would agree with that statement, some would disagree; frankly, I'm not sure whether or not I agree with it. My car has been lovely for the first 12,300 miles; delivers excellent economy, has the best interior (that I perceive!) on the market at its price ($22k), and does exactly what I expected it too and so much more (it actually gets "wow, sweet car!" from my Sunday School classmates when we go eat after church)...

I'm happy with Honda's quality.

tamu2002 · October 2006

All Accord are made in the US nowadays, not an option for me. I'm not unhappy with my Accord. It's just a commuter vehicle for me and my expectations are not that high. The excellent drive train covered enough of its other sins that I still can't help loving it everytime I drive. The 166 hp 4-cy really packs a lot of punch. With the 4-cy's great power and 34 mpg for the 2nd tank, I really am quite satisfied with this purchase. Wish the build quality were better, but I can live with the small defects.

tamu2002 · October 2006

Like I said in the previous post I'm not unhappy with my car, just wish the minor defects weren't there. I gotta say when the next time comes to purchase a new vehicle, I'll give more consideration to the Sonata. If memory serves, the Sonata drove just as nice and quiet and powerful as the Accord. If the Fusion has a good track record, I might very well get one of those too. Good locuk with your Fusion and keep us posted.

tamu2002 · October 2006

I sort of like the Sonata's vents position better too. I actually think it's more logical to have them at a lower position so the wind doesn't blow on one's face.

bobad · October 2006

What were the Sonata engineers thinking?

They were thinking the same thing I am thinking: This layout is PERFECT! And it is. At least to my taste anyway. Of course not everyone has great taste like me.

bobad · October 2006

Take it easy... a Hyundai fan here compared his beloved Sonata to a BMW before.

Conclusion: Sonata has a better paint, fit and finish

What a coincidence. So did I! (Although I am not a Hyundai partisan, or "fan" as you put it)

One day I parked my dark blue Sonata by a brand new dark blue 3 series. Out of curiousity, I took a long, hard look at the paint and panel fit. I didn't have to look for long. The Beemer has very obvious orange peel on large areas of the body. My Sonata has a little micro-oragne peel here and there, and it's hard to find unless you're looking very hard for it. Body panel fit on the Beemer was equal to but no better than my Sonata.

I realize that every Sonata and every Beemer may be different than the cars I compared. But for that whopping price difference, it shouldn't even be close.

herolet · October 2006

We are planning to replace my little 14-year old mx-3 with a mid-size sedan or a hatch. Wife is driving a 5-year old 2.4 Altima. Our budget is about $35,000 CAD, including tax and 4 year finance interests. i.e. about $710 per month or so for 48 months. Based on our research, $710 a month can get us an Accord SE I4 automatic, Camry LE I4 automatic, Sonata GLS V6 premium, Mazda 3 Hatch GT automatic (We know it's not really a mid-size). For no good reasons, we both don't want try a Fusion, Mazda 6, or 2006 Altima.

We first test drove the Mazda 3 hatch. To us it has enough power, and handles well. But we feel it could be slightly quieter on the highway.

This weekend we test-drove the Sonata GL V6 (no the the GLS). It has more than enough power, but we've found the automatic is a bit jerky when accelerating. Our Altima has the same symptom too, but we didn't find it on our friends 2000 Accord I4 (last generation Accord). The Sonata's V6 is pretty quiet at idle, but not nearly as quiet as a friend's 2005 Camry SE 3.3L. The friend let me drive her 2-year old Camry for about half an hour. There were a couple of times I thought the engine was off when waiting for the traffic light. I even mistakenly tried to start the engine while the engine was already running. I didn't hear any engine nosie at all. But with Sonata, I could easily hear the engine noise as I did with Mazda 3 and the Alitma. The wife doesn't like the soft ride of Camry though.

The interior of the Sonata (GL V6) is slightly better than our Altima, but we stil think it's not as good as the friend's Accord LX I4.

Our personal opinion is that the current Sonata is very close to last generation Camry and Accord. However, we haven't tested the new Camry or Accord yet. And we won't make our final decision before then. The thing is, the V6 Camry or Accord is almost $8,000 CAD (including interests, about $170/month more for 48-month term) more expensive than Sonata V6 GL. Accord SE V6 (5.9% APR) is about $830/month, while Sonata V6 GL is only about $660/month (0% APR). Accord SE I4 is about $720/month.

We will go and test drive the Accord I4 within a couple of weeks and see if it's worth the extra $60 CAD per month with the disadvantage of less horse power.

So far, we both like the Sonata more than Mazda 3 (4.9% APR), mainly because of the price. But we are also willing to bite the bullet to pay the extra $3000 ($60 x 48) get the 4 cylinder Accord if it wins our heart. Of course, if we don't like the Accord and the Mazda 3 APR drops a bit soon, we might just get a Mazda 3 hatch.

By the way, we are planning to keep the car as long as it runs well. So the resale value doesn't really matter very much to us.

bobad · October 2006

w9cw, these posters keep saying that an Accord or Camry is not worth the extra $4,000 when purchased new. I am just pointing out that the Camcord is worth more now, and will still be worth more 10 years from now. The problem with your analogy that Hyundai is improving, is that the Camcords are improving just as much

We keep saying it because it's true. What you don't seem to recognize is that Hyundai has been improving at a much faster RATE than Accord and Camry. Hyundai has doubled their quality in the past 10 years without doubling their prices. What has A&C done in the past 10 years? Honestly, not much except raise their prices and rake in the cash from their "reputation".

autoboy16 · October 2006

It is an 06 ex w/cloth. It looks like thegraduate's blue accord but red. The same triangular headlamps, same color interior. It is $15k. At the time, it had 42miles on it. Our dealers here are that leneiant!! Back in o3, my step mom got her new 04 explorer (xls) for $23k. Cars stay on lots a long time and dealers rush to get them off. My step mom got offered $24k for an 06 eddie bauer explorer(pre-owned)! We didn't take it cuz of the too far upside down thing...

-Cj

cajuncycler · October 2006

Uh,bob, I do!

cajuncycler · October 2006

There was discussion a while back where some of my posts were deleted by the host concerning my "perceived" safety of the Honda Accord. Well sorry to say that yet 4 more people have become victims in a head on collision in my city while passengers in a Honda Accord. They were struck head on by a Ford Mustang. The people in the Honda were innocent victims, the driver and passenger in the Mustang survived. The Honda was NOT involved in the racing. Sorry people, I just don't trust a Honda to keep me alive in serious crash. You can read about this one here link title

kdshapiro · October 2006

"One day I parked my dark blue Sonata by a brand new dark blue 3 series."

Bimmers, not Beemers, withstand the test of time. My guess is you were next to a 10 year old 3 series, not realizing it. Fit, finish and paint jobs on BMWs are above reproach. BMWs are noted for the vastly superior paint jobs over Japanese counterparts.

kdshapiro · October 2006

Look at this table. Sonota has a A,P,P rating, Camry has G,G,M rating.

link title

backy · October 2006

That's old data, based on the previous-generation vehicles. Current data is available at www.iihs.org.

kdshapiro · October 2006

Doesn't matter if it's old (2005), people are still driving those cars around. Point being, the post above about the unfortuntate incident involving the Honda was trolling. No one manufacturer can boast of a fatality free record. And some manufacturers have scores of cars on the road that are essentially must less safe than the competition and, Hyundai is one of them.

backy · October 2006

As for trolling, you are talking about a car that was designed in the mid-'90s. Now that is a real old horse. How about comparing the crash-test scores of the current mid-sized cars? For example, how does the current Accord fare against the Camry and Sonata?

thegraduate · October 2006

Not true - I drove my Accord off a 300 foot-high bridge at 130 miles per hour without my seatbelt on and into shark infested waters. It was only scratched, and I swam away from the accident. :P

You are right, any crash, if severe enough WILL produce injuries or fatalities.

kdshapiro · October 2006

I was discussing an article dated 2005. Are you saying I was trolling for discussing an article that compares several models that is one year old? You can cut it anyway you want, but people do buy used cars and manufacturers upgrade their lineups. And what is true today, may not be true tomorrow.

cajuncycler · October 2006

Point I was making, (REAL WORLD) not crash test ratings... The People in the Mustang survived the occupants of the Honda did not. Real life trumps crash test ratings. And you who flew your Honda off a bridge and survived without a seatbelt on need owe a big one to your guardian angel not your Honda.

backy · October 2006

Only you know why you posted that old story. The Sonata in that article debuted in 1998. The Camry, in 2001. Why bring up old crash test results when this is a discussion about the current (and sometimes future) mid-sized cars? We could talk about how well mid-sized cars from 10-20 years ago fared in crash tests--many of them are still on the road. But how does it relate to this discussion?

Also, one incident regarding a car tells us nothing about the overall crash-worthiness of that car.

03accordman · October 2006

"We keep saying it because it's true. What you don't seem to recognize is that Hyundai has been improving at a much faster RATE than Accord and Camry. Hyundai has doubled their quality in the past 10 years without doubling their prices. What has A&C done in the past 10 years? Honestly, not much except raise their prices and rake in the cash from their "reputation". "

Hyundai has improved quality so much because there was a lot of scope for improvement. Can you positively say today that Hyundai will improve its quality by a 100% in the next few years over what it is today?

What the Accord and Camry have done in the past few decades is exactly what Hyundai is doing today; improving quality and public perception of its cars.

A&C in the last 10 years have demolished their competition to the tune of 800k cars per year; and let em tell you, if today we see lots of improved sales for the Sonata and Fusion, its not because A&C have lost quality/reliability, but becasue the SUV market has fallen through and more and more people are buying sedans today. The Camry is actually targeting its best sales ever in 2006

cajuncycler · October 2006

:mad: What old story?? This happened in Lafayette Louisiana THIS WEEKEND!

Yeah Backy you're right Four DEAD PEOPLE tell you nothing about the crash worthiness of a vehicle. :sick:

kdshapiro · October 2006

You know what. You could have an accident between any two cars. Luck, which is real life, and always trumps statistical odds and then statistics get adjusted for the Guardian angel factor.

In your example about the bridge, it was the Honda, not the Guardian angel.

cajuncycler · October 2006

You know what? Tell that to the family of those people in the Honda.

backy · October 2006

Yours wasn't the old story. Yours was the single incident which doesn't tell us anything about the overall crash worthiness of a vehicle. Do you know how many reports of fatal crashes involving Mustangs I could post if I wanted to, and if they were on-topic?

kdshapiro · October 2006

"Only you know why you posted that old story."

LOL. And only you know why you post what you post.

The discussion title is: Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread. That to me implies midsize sedans comparison, past, present and future.

"But how does it relate to this discussion?"

How does 90% of the last 100 posts relate to the discussion? A lot of them has been in the form of: "my car is cheaper than your car and my car has ECT."

That does not make for a better car. Honda and Toyota have earned their wings and charge market price for their cars. Hyundai cannot charge the same price for a "seemingly" equivalent (not really better) vehicle, they need the 10 year warranty to placate new owners to make up for years of bad cars.

Those who don't "understand" what Hyundai has to offer are getting ripped off by Honda and Toyota? Gee, that's what the G35 fans say about the 3 series owners.

dtownfb · October 2006

What year was the Honda? Since the Mustang was able to leave teh scene of the crime, I'll assume the HOnda was not moving thus taking the brunt of the force.

kdshapiro · October 2006

That comment was way out of line. Everybody wants to see fatalities reduced. But you know what, fatalities are going up in spite of electronic advances in cars. (Detnews.com - 2006)

You can do you own web search to search out stories and summaries of Sonota fatalities.

backy · October 2006

Honda and Toyota have earned their wings and charge market price for their cars.

Actually, everyone charges market price for their cars--as in the price that the market will bear. Accords are selling at huge discounts, with large factory-to-dealer incentives. The Camry has lesser discounts because it's a new design (there were no rebates on the '06 Sonata for awhile after introduction either), but when the newness wears off I believe we will see rebates and large discounts on that car just as we saw on the previous-gen Camry.

tamu2002 · October 2006

Does anyone (especially cajuncycler since you've seen lots of them) have any theories as to why there's (if there is) a difference between these two? One would think the engineers would try their best to simulate the real world situations in the lab, which I'm sure they do. :confuse:

kdshapiro · October 2006

Hyundai cannot sell their cars for the same price (ie market price) and terms and conditions as Honda and Toyota.(ie 3 year warranty) They have had a huge rebate promotion going on as well. So I guess what is being said, is all cars in this segment either sell for huge discounts or have huge rebates. That does make sense.

jlindh · October 2006

Time to repeat high school physics, dtownfb. Also, the car that left the scene was the car racing against the Mustang.

imidazol97 · October 2006

Moving. Not moving. Makes no difference in which car sustains which force. It's the relative velocities involved that matters.

dtownfb · October 2006

jlindh: thanks I had enough physics in college which is why I predicted that one car was standing still (the article was not clear).

imazda: You are right about the relative speed. If the car wa still and was hit at 40 mph, the relative speed is 40 mph. If both cars were going 40 mph, the relative speed is 80 mph.

Even if this was not the case, I'm still not sure why he sited this article as blaming Honda for not keeping its occupants safe. Too many factors in this type of accident. Let's blame the right person, the driver of the Mustang. Hopefully they charge this person with vehicular homicide.

joe97 · October 2006

Follow-up to the latest discussion:

Govt wants automakers to have crash ratings on the sticker for new cars starting in 08MY I believe. The ratings, I am assuming, would come from NHTSA (which the Sonata received perfect scores

)

backy · October 2006

If they do that, I hope they put both the NHTSA and IIHS ratings on the car. Although that could be a problem because there is often a long delay in publishing the IIHS scores for new models.

cajuncycler · October 2006

Personally though I have no statistics just what I've seen on the streets, the automakers are building cars more these days to crush down to absorb impacts. Everyone talks about safety cages and though that is a good thing and started years ago with unitized body frame construction, I just feel that we are seeing thinner and thinner steel being used. Somebody pointed out on on earlier post that most of the cars look like too much plastic well you're right. In an effort to reduce weight most of materials comprising cars today is light metal aluminum and plastic or composite materials. This is going to continue well into the future of vehicles to up the gas mileage figures. My complaint is how these companies go about reducing that weight by protecting the people in the vehicles less and less. I posted several weeks back that Honda was the first of the foreign car manufacturers to drop the five mph bumper standards when the feds made the mistake of easing the regulations. Not Toyota, Not Nissan or Mazda or any other company I am aware of. This and what I have seen on the streets for many years angers me that Honda on the premise of producing quality cars was first to say, hey safety, let's short cut it and make a buck doing so. This is all I am saying. Post after post on here where Honda religionists swear by the Honda legacy but ignore the truth. I know these posts will be deleted but at this point in the conversation I don't care.

jeffyscott · October 2006

I am no Honda fan but, again, bumpers have very little (if anything) to do with protecting occupants. The standards are mostly about reducing insurance costs for property damage.

To the extent bumpers are a problem, the bigger issue is bumpers not lining up...many SUV and truck bumpers are too high and go over the top of car bumpers.

Your impressions seem to be the exact opposite of reality. Cars have gotten heavier and safer, not lighter and more hazardous.

IIHS says: The designs of passenger vehicles have been improving for years, becoming more protective of their occupants in crashes.

http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr081006.html

thegraduate · October 2006

5 MPH bumpers, if I'm not mistaken, refers to the ability for the bumpers to not need $ repair $ in a 5 MPH impact, not their ability to protect occupants at 5 MPH etc...

Post after post on here where Honda religionists swear by the Honda legacy but ignore the truth. I know these posts will be deleted but at this point in the conversation I don't care.

Why would the posts be deleted? It didn't look like you posted anything out-of-line (although I don't necessarily agree with everything you said, it was still seemingly respectable from my perspective)...

I'm a little lost (A LOT of posts have been made since I last looked at this forum...) so forgive my being naive please

cajuncycler · October 2006

I used the bumpers to illustrate that Honda was the first car company out there to relax safety standards. I know full well the limits of a car bumper. Do you perceive me as an idiot? I would not presume you were. As I stated many times here (most of them deleted) that I work in EMS and have seen what I perceive to have been more carnage in Hondas on the whole than other makes of cars. The Mustang I mentioned hit this Honda Accord head on. The Mustang was probably traveling in excess of 90 when it hit the Accord coming in the opposite direction on a 4 line in the city road with a turning lane only dividing it. The Accord according inside sources were traveling 45 mph from the opposite direction on head on impact. The passengers in the Mustang, a car weighing approximately the same as the Accord was totaled up to the windshield. The passenger compartment remained pretty much intact. The Accord had significant passenger compartment intrusion. In terms of construction I believe the Mustang was capable of maintaining integrity better than the Honda. Sue me. I am going by facts as presented by the people who rescued the two survivors of the Mustang. I have seen several other small to mid size cars involved in similar accidents and they didn't fair well either. I just get tired of extricating the non living from Hondas. I don't want to say the Ford was better than the Honda but all things being equal shouldn't the people in the Mustang have also expired?(yeah this one is going to be deleted too. so read it while you can.) The previous posts were deleted by the host because they said I got too graphic in my arguement over the safety issue. I work in EMS. Been doing so now for 30 years. Sorry I draw off life experiences here not supposition.

backy · October 2006

The 5 mph bumper standard is not a safety standard--it's to limit $$$ damage in a low-speed crash.

As for Honda relaxing safety standards... Honda is the first carmaker in the U.S. to equip all of its cars, from the cheapest Fit to the most expensive Odyssey, with at least six airbags and ABS. So why beat on them for relaxing safety standards?

Here is another tragic real-life case that shows it is impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions from a single incident: an Accord and Mustang hit head-on. The driver of the Mustang is killed. The driver of the Accord suffers two broken legs.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2006/local/01/31/fatalax.html

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