A Mercedes is built much stronger and better than a Honda, IMO.
And it costs a lot more too. What's the point? Mercedes is a totally different class of car. It should be compared to BMW, and other cars in it's own price range.
Unfortunately in the real world Honda drivers as well as Mercedes drivers go over the speed limit. Yeah a Mercedes costs more, but to the previous point that the IIHS results weren't as good as a Honda...if I was going to be in a serious accident and didn't have a choice about it, I'd rather crash in a Mercedes any day of the week.
You're correct to some extent. A recent front-page picture in a local paper reminded me of how innane some of these conversations about IIHS ratings can be. The graphic picture showed a Honda, flattened in a deadly accident with a truck.
As we discuss the IIHS A vs G and have the IIHS declare a victor in it's test tube environment, we can't forget the IIHS tests only specific scenarios. The IIHS does perform a much needed service, but most accidents that I know do not occur in a laboratory and it's difficult to know what will happen, "in the real world". Even going 100 in a Honda is a real world scenario.
You take your best shot at picking a car and hope the Lord, not the IIHS, is on your side.
The main reason I bought a Volvo in 1998 is their reputation for structural integrity, which I think is what the European makes kind of pride themselves on- even the VW Jetta is rated very highly, so not just related to the weight of the car. Plus I've heard (unverified) that in Europe, only Volvo and Mercedes have staffers that visit body shops when their vehicles have been in collisions to see in a "real world" how they held up/protected the occupants. But there is a limit- at 120 mph, you are sort of "aiming the car", not driving it, so unless you are a race car driver with a Bell helmut on, I don't think that anything over 80mph is advisable.
"In particular, the passenger seat is punishing not only for its lack of height or tilt adjustment, but also for its poor positioning and thigh support that tend toward dumping the passenger into the footwell instead of holding the rider in the shotgun seat."
That's exactly the impression my wife and I had when we test drove the Sonata. The seats were cushioned well enough, but they seems to slant you forward, which quickly became unsettling. They were in stark contrast to the seats in the Mazda6, which was just one of the reasons we chose the 6 over the Sonata.
"Plus I've heard (unverified) that in Europe, only Volvo and Mercedes have staffers that visit body shops when their vehicles have been in collisions to see in a "real world" how they held up/protected the occupants."
Consider this a confirmation of sorts. During the mid 1990s I worked for MB-USA in Montvale, NJ (and occasionally in Stuttgart), and while I cannot comment about what MB did in Europe at the time, I can tell you that MB-USA routinely bought wrecked MBs and trucked them to the facility where I worked in Montvale for analysis. Some of the cars that I saw there were obscenely destroyed, making one wonder how the driver conspired with the elements to cause so much damage.
FWIW, BMW's U.S. headquarters were just around the corner in Woodcliff Lake (a quarter of a mile from my old house) and part of Volvo's U.S. operations were literally just across the parking lot from one of the MB buildings. All three companies do "Best Practice" visits to each others' facilities, and all three were in the habit of buying wrecks for analysis.
you would expect something else out of somebody as 'Detroit' biased and Michigan based as Autoweek? Hyundai has already surpassed the 'Detroit' based products in almost all respects and are certainly competitive from a price perspective. It is the real 'Big 3' (Toyota, Nissan, and Honda) that ought to be worried about 'lil ole Hyundai!
Keep in mind that Autoweek has been very positive about their test Sonata up until now.
The longest I've ever taken a Sonata (SE) on a trip is 3-1/2 hours, twice in one day with about a four hour gap between trips. The driver's seat was the manual one. I found it fine when on cruise, but did not have enough thigh support when using the accelerator. The power seat has more support--the front edge can be raised higher. My oldest son who is 6' sat in the front passenger seat and had no complaints. I also thought the car (which was pretty new) handled great on the trip, which was almost all freeway and rural highway. Very quiet and smooth--but these were Texas roads, not roads up north in the Rust Belt (with potholes?). What the article didn't say is how long they spent in the car in one day. If it was 15 hours, that would be tiring for just about any car. So I have to assume they've made this trip before with other cars in the Sonata's class so they have a direct comparision.
did drive a 06 Sonata GLS V6 for about a week. Found it be be spacious, relatively comfortable, not quite as economical as I would have thought (about 23 mpg - 50% city) - a real engine improvement and superior to what I've driven in GMs/Fords/Chryslers but still a notch below the 'Japanese' engines. Overall a fun car to drive. Thought interior fit and finish also left a lot to be desired - where do you think they found that fake wood - Jupiter? Factoring in a street price well below $20k, struck me as a helluva deal.
That's exactly the impression my wife and I had when we test drove the Sonata. The seats were cushioned well enough, but they seems to slant you forward, which quickly became unsettling.
This problem was my main objection with the car as well when I did a couple test drives. Felt like I was gonna slide off the seat. Really uncomfortable. I knew it wasn't just me with this observation.
Seems to be an easy fix though.
And the road fatigue issue was gonna be revealed sooner or later. Just slapping parts together doesn't make a great car. Heritage (or lack of it) in carmaking costs.
The Sonata is tremendous deal at street prices, though I sure wish that the sweet song of the 3.3L V6 was available in the Kia Optima, which has a MUCH more coherent and attractive interior. Your MPG is higher than I've acheived in my many rental V6s- according to the trip computer, I usually average between 19 and 21 depending homw much highway (usually Chicago to Milwaukee) I do. Two of my biggest complaints on the Sonata are relative quibbles - the steering wheel audio controls are virtually useless, and despite having a trip computer, there's no outside temperature gauge, an absurd omission. I certainly echo your comments regarding interior fit/finish. Actually, the fit and finish are generally just fine, its the aesthetic and erogonimc faux pas that bother me..... the large separation between the HVAC and stereo controls, and the annoying location of the center stack vents, for example.
Otherwise, the Sonata has a lot going for it, though I wouldn't call it 'fun to drive' - this is not a Legacy, 6, or Accord, and I don't feel its as responsive as the Camry SE, though possibly better than Camrys with standard suspenders (I havent had much time behind the wheel of those vehicles). I am generally impressed by the Sonatas ride, but surprised by the amount of impact noise and thump from the rear suspension. The Sonata also has very nicely executed brakes and VSC integration- brake pedal feel represents a nice spot between soft and firm, and the VSC allows for some play. However, many of the rentals I've had lack the directional stability which I think should be expected from an ABS system; hard stops require a good deal of attention and correction at the wheel to maintain a straight stop. This is something I also noticed in the 2 Azeras I had.
The best thing about this Sonata is the very willing and able V6, which is an absolute delight, despite the disappointing MPG. Easily, the best engine at the price point, if you don't mind the thirst.
Recently ordered a stack of C/D magazines on ebay for like $5.00, all from 1986. These are literally plastered with ads for the frighteningly tin looking Excels. Damn, how far Hyundai has come. Kudos.
Damn, how far Hyundai has come. Kudos agreed, can you imagine how well the Fusion, for example, might have sold if it simply had the Hyundai 3.3 liter drivetrain; or for that matter, the 500 with the Azera's 3.8?
I had the opportunity to rent a Sonata for a couple of days and I put about 400 miles on it in that time. The tracking problem was a constant annoyance. It simply would not keep going straight. Constant steering adjusment was necessary. It also had sort of a rolling feeling on turns taken at all aggressively. The seat was a total piece of crap. I'm 5'10" and 200 pounds. It lacked any side support and under leg support. I recently bought a car. I bought a midsize sedan. I went into it objectively looking at the Hyundai before I rented it. It is not in the same league as my 6 and the 6 didn't cost that much more.
as I guess you know Kia is owned by Hyundai, the Kias, of course saddled with the last generation of Hyundai engines, and as you note, what a difference. Surprises me, given your apparent preference for more tightly tied down rides, that the Optima would even merit mention. Both the Optima and the larger Amanti approach 'Buick' levels of softness - which, I guess is good or bad, depending on what you want.
Just received my October 30 issue of AutoWeek. I enjoy the magazine, but I'm going to have to climb the socio-economic ladder some more to have any relevance with most of the vehicles they spotlight. For example, this issue covers the new 2008 Audi TT, the Pagani Zonda supercar, Ferrari Turbo 550 Maranello, Techart CT3 Porsche, and Koenigsegg CCX (a $695,000 supercar). Frankly, with all of their emphasis on pseudo-exotics, real exotics, and a general preference for vehicles north of $50K, I really don't think most of their editorial staff can be objective with the more mundane vehicles regular folks purchase.
rickypaul wrote: "The tracking problem was a constant annoyance. It simply would not keep going straight. Constant steering adjustment was necessary."
Hyundai needs to dial in more caster into the front end. If someone was to investigate the standard amount of caster in the stock Sonata, I'll bet anything this is the culprit, and may easily be fixed in tweaking the front-end alignment.
So you're saying Hyundai should fix all 300,000+ of them? What about ripping out the front seats and putting in new ones while they're at it. Maybe a few more welds in the underbody and some more noise dampening measures. Maybe a software upgrade to somehow counteract the gas guzzling.
You cut corners and that's what you get - what you pay for.
I said nothing about Hyundai "fixing" any existing Sonatas. I simply stated it appears there's a lack of caster in the front end. Depending on the design and adjustability in the front suspension, any front-end alignment tech should be able to correct this problem.
Yep, you get what you pay for: a 2007 Honda Accord EX-L V6 at a TMV of $27,440 or a 2007 Toyota Camry LE V6 at a TMV of $25,500. And, a comparably-equipped 2007 Sonata Limited for $18, 470 (typical real dealer's quote). There's already a TSB on the "Ka-Thump" rear suspension anomaly only present in the V6 models - new shocks and bushings. Yes, the Sonata is far from perfect - neither are the Accord and the automatic transmission & DBW-plagued Camry, but for the money, it's a decent value.
If I'm going to buy a new car, I'm not interested in getting the front end aligned. I bought a Mazda 6 S Demo for 18,900 with a 6 cylinder engine. It has a comfortable saddle, it goes exactly where you put it, and it tracks like its on rails. Not to mention the interior is not crappy looking. No thanks. Hyundai still has some catching up to do.
i'm not trying to make any excuses. but do you know what the tire pressures were? i and my wife have driven some rentals with severely under inflated tires, until i corrected it.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
17,560 out the door for a manual model, including delivery/freight charge.($595) So it's $16,965 plus freight if you want a comparison to other dealers/ads.
Now this is a good car. A 2006 Model could be had, new, for a couple of thousand less. And it's still an Accord - just without the cush and bling. It completely pummels the Hyundais and budget boxes. I'd take sparse quality over loaded cheapness anyday.
And other than the rear swaybar being missing(easy to put back on) and having mounts for two speakers in the rear($50 at best-buy, wiring is already there), it's identical in how it drives with the pricier models.
And most of all, it has the same manual gearbox found on the top-end models. Its worlds better than anything other than maybe a couple of year old Celiga in how the gearbox works. Very smooth and slick. Zero "rubber" or hunting.
Oh well - it's 16,910 today and that's including the delivery charge. I've seen Honda have a $1000 rebate before as well, so 16K even is possible if you time it right.
AND half of them are made in Japan, which is another definite plus, as the Japanese are white-glove anal about their cars. They'll look at a Caddy and shake their head at how poor the fit and finish is, then do the exact same thing to a Lexus. Now, they do build the same car as in the U.S., but quality control is a notch or two crazier. (good thing when we're talking about mass produced anything, though)
This is something I am very fussy about, I do not like when the seat cushion is too short. I only took a short test drive in the Sonata and felt the seat was not quite deep enough to suit me. It also lacked telescoping steering wheel, though that is available on some trim levels.
The Mazda6 has a nice deep, comfortable seat. Fusion (at least in the S trim level) and Accord also seemed to me to have sufficiently deep and comfortable seats.
"Wow, have been gone for quite awhile. Anyone care to sum up the last 2500 posts since Jul 30?"
Welcome back! Here's the summary:
Hondas are overrated Volkswagens are overpriced Fords and Chevys are junk Hyundias are cheap Toyotas are boring Nissans and Mazdas are harsh
the automotive media is bias against the domestic makes the domestic makes suffer from past misgivings and Pat probably has migraines trying to keep us in line
I have a new AWD, 270 hp, high performance, midsize sedan with a comfortable & ergonmic interior, automatic climate control, and Bose sound system. A dream on the highway. On the last three tanks of gas it averaged 28.0, 28.9, and 28.8 mpg. I am really enjoying it. The price of admission for this vehicle was $22,900 and an appreciation for shifting its six-speed manual transmission. I'm not saying that any other vehicle isn't a good alternative based on what your priorities may be; but I think that this MazdaSpeed6 is a great car for me and an excellent value for the money. In these columns it doesn't get much consideration: not quite lux enough to be discussed in the entry-level luxury performance sedan category but something more than the regular Mazda6 usually mentioned here. If you are in the market, take a look at one.
You have to be willing to row your own though. Mazda's instance on not putting an automatic in leaves a lot of buyers in the cold. That is great highway mileage, my turbo gets excellent highway mileage also. It's the heavy stop and go that causes lousy mileage.
Most people in this segment aren't looking for a high reving, manual shifting, noisy sedan.
But you are, and you found a good one. I checked one out a while back, and the dealer only had 1. Didn't seem like they were ready to sell a bunch of 'em.
I read a review where they referred to a MazdaSpeed 6 as having a noisy exhaust/engine sound. Don't know what they are talking about. I usually pick my shift points by the sound of the engine, but this engine is so quiet that I have started paying more attention to the tach. This engine produces 280 ft.pounds of torque at 3000 rpm. Not much reason to rev it high. Drag racing perhaps? But that is not where I am at. I am guessing that somebody accustomed to high reving engines probably did a test drive. With the real guts starting below 3000 rpm and hp peaking about 5500 rpm, above that rpm you are wasting your time; you do get noise but not much boost. My SHO had a high reving engine, 7000+ rpm; this is different.
It is a manual shift, but not noisy or high reving unless you are flat out racing. I got two speeding tickets last year so I am definitely not racing. 75 mph is less than 3000 rpm.
meateater - I gave the only numbers on the Accord and Camry I had available at the time - Edmunds True Market Value (TMV) which is pretty close to what a number of people are paying for V6 powered EX-L's and LE's. I wouldn't call them rip off prices! My local Honda and Toyota dealer won't sell for any less, in fact they're typically higher.
The Sonata quote was not a "low ball quote." Rather, you can drive to Pugi Hyundai in Downers Grove, IL and buy as many 2007 Sonata Limiteds you want at that price.
Yes, the Sonata is not perfect, but it's pretty darn good for the average driver. You can't begin to even touch it for the price you would have to pay for an Accord EX-L V6 or the Camry LE V6. Show me where you can buy either of the two aformentioned Hondas or Toyotas for less than $18.7K. You can barely buy a Civic LX for that amount these days. And, let's not even discuss how imperfect the 2007 Camry is - just go over to the Camry forum, and you will find out.
Let's face it, there are Hyundai haters, and no matter how good a car and/or value it is, it would never matter. Your loss is our gain . . .
Let's face it, there are Hyundai haters, and no matter how good a car and/or value it is, it would never matter.
I sense more that meateater (among others) isn't so much a Hyundai hater as he/she is unconvinced that the brand is pound for pound (not dollar for dollar) on par with a CamCord. Not everybody is looking for the cheapest vehicle in its class.
thanks for the update: seems everyone has their Opinions, and that is it. Motorweek.org picked the Honda Civic for Best Small car of 2006, and the Hyundai Sonata for Best Midsized(family?) Sedan of 2006, then you get anohter magazine, show, etc, saying Hyundai= trash. Go figure!
I drove a new Optima, and thought it was better than the same I-4 Sonata(has 5 speed automanual vs 4 speed on Sonata, for example, and better MPG).
I drove the brand new Sebring(it looks good, in Some colors, and not ugly like in the internet pix). The I-4 base sedan. Automatic. 173HP. Not Bad. I'd take it over say a Malibu, or maybe even a Fusion(or Accord/Sonata/Camry).
But, that could be because it's a new vehicle. GEMA engined.
Absolutely yes, $825 every six months without ever having an accident and very few past tickets. I have seen a dozen other people get a ticket at one of the places where I did, including just two days ago. The cops sit there in the dark before sunrise waiting for people like me, hurrying to get to work early, and nail us one after another on a road section with a 45 limit while similar areas have a 55 limit. So now I go slow(er) and concentrate on good gas mileage.
don't think it's a matter of being a Hyundai hater, more a matter of taking one source to price the honda and toyo and then using a more favorable source to get the price for the sonata. edmunds is usually a good start, but compared to ad prices in the paper, edmunds TMV is usually quite a bit high.
and for the record, over the last few pages, I haven't seen any people coming out and saying that they hate the sonata, but just expressing what charcteristics they don't like about it. it seems like the hyundai-holics are a bit sensitive to opinions that others have that differs from theirs...most everyone here thinks the sonata is a good value but when it comes to spending a lot of money on one, some would rather buy a car that comes closer to their ideal rather than buying one just because it costs a little less up front. this forum doesn't have to have a "you're either with us or you're against us" type attitude; there's enough of that nonsense elsewhere in the world today.
no matter what you say, I won't even try the mazdaspeed6... even if all the magazines who tested it decided to actually use the right octane gas so that the car performs as designed and they then decided to give it a fairer review, I still wouldn't drive it. had I known what those cars would be selling for just half a year after it's release, I'd be driving one now. I never would have geussed that it would be now selling for 6-7k off of msrp! so unless I want to start looking down on my normal 6, there is no way I'm going to tease/torment myself but congrats on your car! for those who value performance, style, and practicality, the speed6 deserves to be considered.
Thank-you! for this post. I laugh when Honda/Toyota fans try to convince people thier cars were actually less expensive or as expensive as a comparable Fusion/Milan/Sonata/G6 whichever. Its a no brainer.. Honda/Toyota owners pay more upfront, lots more.. so thier resale better be higher! :surprise:
I am old enough to remember the first Hondas and Toyotas imported into the U.S. (mid-1970's or so) and the comments about them were remarkably similar- and indeed the first Civics and Toyopets were crude, the Datsun (before Nissan) B-210 "HoneyBee" was looked on as almost a joke. But Hyundai and Kia will learn, the Sonata is considered by many in the same league as the big guys, and every model will get progessively better. And the Chinese cars are waiting in the wings to start the same process
"I laugh when Honda/Toyota fans try to convince people their cars were actually less expensive or as expensive as a comparable Fusion/Milan/Sonata/G6 whichever. Its a no brainer"
Look up the TMV of the car you're driving now and compare it to what you paid. What you paid is quite a bit lower, heh. Did anyone accuse you of lying for what you paid for your car?
There's no doubt on average people pay less for Sonatas then they do for Accords and Camrys. It's just that at times the difference is exaggerated. Like comparing the actual negotiated price of the Sonata with TMV price of the Accord.
Back in 1991 a friend and co-worker had an 81 Accord. Despite being 10 years old the car was still holding up very well. In 81 Hondas were much smaller and lighter cars, and therefore didn't ride like us Americans were accustomed to. But more and more people started buying them because they were reliable, and economical. The Accord has grown larger, and larger with each new generation. Some people who have owned many Hondas say the Accord is getting too big now. The Accord was not always what the American consumer wanted (a large smooth riding car), but it has always been reliable, and economical. Which is more than you can say for most of the competition.
Comments
And it costs a lot more too. What's the point? Mercedes is a totally different class of car. It should be compared to BMW, and other cars in it's own price range.
link to Autoweek.com
As we discuss the IIHS A vs G and have the IIHS declare a victor in it's test tube environment, we can't forget the IIHS tests only specific scenarios. The IIHS does perform a much needed service, but most accidents that I know do not occur in a laboratory and it's difficult to know what will happen, "in the real world". Even going 100 in a Honda is a real world scenario.
You take your best shot at picking a car and hope the Lord, not the IIHS, is on your side.
"In particular, the passenger seat is punishing not only for its lack of height or tilt adjustment, but also for its poor positioning and thigh support that tend toward dumping the passenger into the footwell instead of holding the rider in the shotgun seat."
That's exactly the impression my wife and I had when we test drove the Sonata. The seats were cushioned well enough, but they seems to slant you forward, which quickly became unsettling. They were in stark contrast to the seats in the Mazda6, which was just one of the reasons we chose the 6 over the Sonata.
What does that mean :confuse:
"Plus I've heard (unverified) that in Europe, only Volvo and Mercedes have staffers that visit body shops when their vehicles have been in collisions to see in a "real world" how they held up/protected the occupants."
Consider this a confirmation of sorts. During the mid 1990s I worked for MB-USA in Montvale, NJ (and occasionally in Stuttgart), and while I cannot comment about what MB did in Europe at the time, I can tell you that MB-USA routinely bought wrecked MBs and trucked them to the facility where I worked in Montvale for analysis. Some of the cars that I saw there were obscenely destroyed, making one wonder how the driver conspired with the elements to cause so much damage.
FWIW, BMW's U.S. headquarters were just around the corner in Woodcliff Lake (a quarter of a mile from my old house) and part of Volvo's U.S. operations were literally just across the parking lot from one of the MB buildings. All three companies do "Best Practice" visits to each others' facilities, and all three were in the habit of buying wrecks for analysis.
Best Regards,
Shipo
LURK-MODE
The longest I've ever taken a Sonata (SE) on a trip is 3-1/2 hours, twice in one day with about a four hour gap between trips. The driver's seat was the manual one. I found it fine when on cruise, but did not have enough thigh support when using the accelerator. The power seat has more support--the front edge can be raised higher. My oldest son who is 6' sat in the front passenger seat and had no complaints. I also thought the car (which was pretty new) handled great on the trip, which was almost all freeway and rural highway. Very quiet and smooth--but these were Texas roads, not roads up north in the Rust Belt (with potholes?). What the article didn't say is how long they spent in the car in one day. If it was 15 hours, that would be tiring for just about any car. So I have to assume they've made this trip before with other cars in the Sonata's class so they have a direct comparision.
You must have a different Autoweek than the rest of us.
This problem was my main objection with the car as well when I did a couple test drives. Felt like I was gonna slide off the seat. Really uncomfortable. I knew it wasn't just me with this observation.
Seems to be an easy fix though.
And the road fatigue issue was gonna be revealed sooner or later. Just slapping parts together doesn't make a great car. Heritage (or lack of it) in carmaking costs.
The Sonata is tremendous deal at street prices, though I sure wish that the sweet song of the 3.3L V6 was available in the Kia Optima, which has a MUCH more coherent and attractive interior. Your MPG is higher than I've acheived in my many rental V6s- according to the trip computer, I usually average between 19 and 21 depending homw much highway (usually Chicago to Milwaukee) I do. Two of my biggest complaints on the Sonata are relative quibbles - the steering wheel audio controls are virtually useless, and despite having a trip computer, there's no outside temperature gauge, an absurd omission. I certainly echo your comments regarding interior fit/finish. Actually, the fit and finish are generally just fine, its the aesthetic and erogonimc faux pas that bother me..... the large separation between the HVAC and stereo controls, and the annoying location of the center stack vents, for example.
Otherwise, the Sonata has a lot going for it, though I wouldn't call it 'fun to drive' - this is not a Legacy, 6, or Accord, and I don't feel its as responsive as the Camry SE, though possibly better than Camrys with standard suspenders (I havent had much time behind the wheel of those vehicles). I am generally impressed by the Sonatas ride, but surprised by the amount of impact noise and thump from the rear suspension. The Sonata also has very nicely executed brakes and VSC integration- brake pedal feel represents a nice spot between soft and firm, and the VSC allows for some play. However, many of the rentals I've had lack the directional stability which I think should be expected from an ABS system; hard stops require a good deal of attention and correction at the wheel to maintain a straight stop. This is something I also noticed in the 2 Azeras I had.
The best thing about this Sonata is the very willing and able V6, which is an absolute delight, despite the disappointing MPG. Easily, the best engine at the price point, if you don't mind the thirst.
Recently ordered a stack of C/D magazines on ebay for like $5.00, all from 1986. These are literally plastered with ads for the frighteningly tin looking Excels. Damn, how far Hyundai has come. Kudos.
-my .02 for now
~alpha
???? What are you trying to say?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
agreed, can you imagine how well the Fusion, for example, might have sold if it simply had the Hyundai 3.3 liter drivetrain; or for that matter, the 500 with the Azera's 3.8?
:shades:
Hyundai needs to dial in more caster into the front end. If someone was to investigate the standard amount of caster in the stock Sonata, I'll bet anything this is the culprit, and may easily be fixed in tweaking the front-end alignment.
You cut corners and that's what you get - what you pay for.
Yep, you get what you pay for: a 2007 Honda Accord EX-L V6 at a TMV of $27,440 or a 2007 Toyota Camry LE V6 at a TMV of $25,500. And, a comparably-equipped 2007 Sonata Limited for $18, 470 (typical real dealer's quote). There's already a TSB on the "Ka-Thump" rear suspension anomaly only present in the V6 models - new shocks and bushings. Yes, the Sonata is far from perfect - neither are the Accord and the automatic transmission & DBW-plagued Camry, but for the money, it's a decent value.
You quote a 'ripped off' price for the Accord and the low ball quote for the Sonata. But I agree with you - the Sonata is far from perfect.
17,560 out the door for a manual model, including delivery/freight charge.($595) So it's $16,965 plus freight if you want a comparison to other dealers/ads.
Now this is a good car. A 2006 Model could be had, new, for a couple of thousand less. And it's still an Accord - just without the cush and bling. It completely pummels the Hyundais and budget boxes. I'd take sparse quality over loaded cheapness anyday.
And other than the rear swaybar being missing(easy to put back on) and having mounts for two speakers in the rear($50 at best-buy, wiring is already there), it's identical in how it drives with the pricier models.
And most of all, it has the same manual gearbox found on the top-end models. Its worlds better than anything other than maybe a couple of year old Celiga in how the gearbox works. Very smooth and slick. Zero "rubber" or hunting.
Oh well - it's 16,910 today and that's including the delivery charge. I've seen Honda have a $1000 rebate before as well, so 16K even is possible if you time it right.
AND half of them are made in Japan, which is another definite plus, as the Japanese are white-glove anal about their cars. They'll look at a Caddy and shake their head at how poor the fit and finish is, then do the exact same thing to a Lexus. Now, they do build the same car as in the U.S., but quality control is a notch or two crazier. (good thing when we're talking about mass produced anything, though)
This is something I am very fussy about, I do not like when the seat cushion is too short. I only took a short test drive in the Sonata and felt the seat was not quite deep enough to suit me. It also lacked telescoping steering wheel, though that is available on some trim levels.
The Mazda6 has a nice deep, comfortable seat. Fusion (at least in the S trim level) and Accord also seemed to me to have sufficiently deep and comfortable seats.
Welcome back! Here's the summary:
Hondas are overrated
Volkswagens are overpriced
Fords and Chevys are junk
Hyundias are cheap
Toyotas are boring
Nissans and Mazdas are harsh
the automotive media is bias against the domestic makes
the domestic makes suffer from past misgivings
and Pat probably has migraines trying to keep us in line
Love the summary.
But you are, and you found a good one. I checked one out a while back, and the dealer only had 1. Didn't seem like they were ready to sell a bunch of 'em.
I thought the V6 was the way to go in the 6 tho.
It is a manual shift, but not noisy or high reving unless you are flat out racing. I got two speeding tickets last year so I am definitely not racing. 75 mph is less than 3000 rpm.
The Sonata quote was not a "low ball quote." Rather, you can drive to Pugi Hyundai in Downers Grove, IL and buy as many 2007 Sonata Limiteds you want at that price.
Yes, the Sonata is not perfect, but it's pretty darn good for the average driver. You can't begin to even touch it for the price you would have to pay for an Accord EX-L V6 or the Camry LE V6. Show me where you can buy either of the two aformentioned Hondas or Toyotas for less than $18.7K. You can barely buy a Civic LX for that amount these days. And, let's not even discuss how imperfect the 2007 Camry is - just go over to the Camry forum, and you will find out.
Let's face it, there are Hyundai haters, and no matter how good a car and/or value it is, it would never matter. Your loss is our gain . . .
I sense more that meateater (among others) isn't so much a Hyundai hater as he/she is unconvinced that the brand is pound for pound (not dollar for dollar) on par with a CamCord. Not everybody is looking for the cheapest vehicle in its class.
Motorweek.org picked the Honda Civic for Best Small car of 2006, and the Hyundai Sonata for Best Midsized(family?) Sedan of 2006, then you get anohter magazine, show, etc, saying Hyundai= trash.
Go figure!
I drove a new Optima, and thought it was better than the same I-4 Sonata(has 5 speed automanual vs 4 speed on Sonata, for example, and better MPG).
I drove the brand new Sebring(it looks good, in Some colors, and not ugly like in the internet pix). The I-4 base sedan. Automatic. 173HP. Not Bad.
I'd take it over say a Malibu, or maybe even a Fusion(or Accord/Sonata/Camry).
But, that could be because it's a new vehicle.
GEMA engined.
Not bad.
take care/not offense.
and for the record, over the last few pages, I haven't seen any people coming out and saying that they hate the sonata, but just expressing what charcteristics they don't like about it. it seems like the hyundai-holics are a bit sensitive to opinions that others have that differs from theirs...most everyone here thinks the sonata is a good value but when it comes to spending a lot of money on one, some would rather buy a car that comes closer to their ideal rather than buying one just because it costs a little less up front. this forum doesn't have to have a "you're either with us or you're against us" type attitude; there's enough of that nonsense elsewhere in the world today.
As a point of comparision, $2000/year in a state with high premiums, 4 drivers and 3 cars. Maximum coverage on almost every category.
Look up the TMV of the car you're driving now and compare it to what you paid. What you paid is quite a bit lower, heh. Did anyone accuse you of lying for what you paid for your car?
There's no doubt on average people pay less for Sonatas then they do for Accords and Camrys. It's just that at times the difference is exaggerated. Like comparing the actual negotiated price of the Sonata with TMV price of the Accord.