As in all the comparo's here neither the Corolla nor the Avensis is the exact model for comparison purposes. Just as here the Prius is very precisely placed between the two. It's very astute. You do have to compare the three together to get the full picture because as in my case the Corolla/Civic and all other's of that size are immediately ruled out as being too small, not as comfortable and not having enough features. These were criteria No's 1, 2 and 3 in my decision with driving characteristics, superior FE and total price being No's 4,5 & 6.
If the vehicle is too small or uncomfortable then it's out of the comparo, it doesnt matter what the price is.
The models are exactly the same in trim level and transmission when comparing diesel to gas in my comparisons.
As in all the comparo's here neither the Corolla nor the Avensis is the exact model for comparison purposes. Just as here the Prius is very precisely placed between the two
Yes, Toyta was astute in making the Prius unique. If there was a non-hybrid Prius the sales of the hybrid Prius would tank.
That wasnt what I meant in my post. Neither the Corolla nor the Prius nor the Avensis is exactly the same in comparing the three.
But the Prius is unique and so it's successful..
Now the TCH this year will be a different story. That will tell a lot. Do buyers shun it because it's more expensive than the ICE 4c or do they snap it up because it's in the same range as the ICE V6 but with much better FE?
I take some exceptions to the article and to some of the assumptions you have made here.
1. The article talks about increased fuel filter maintenance. Not so. The fuel will be cleaner. 2. Lubricity. A lot of mixed info on that. Maybe for real old diesels, but I doubt it. My guess is that oil companies will add something to remedy this. Add 2% biodiesel to get that lubricity back. 3. Additional cost of ULSD, about 4-7cents per gallon. Gasoline goes ULS too so expect about the same additional cost. 4. Price differential. That assumption is worthless. I am finding diesel for less than regular, though not at the same station. 5. For MY 2005, a diesel engine was a $275 option in a Passat. In my CRD it was $846.
The Jetta diesel automobile has too high a premium which will never be paid back in fuel savings. You can go to vw.com and build your own Jetta. Base starts at about $18K, and after you finish building your base car goes to about $18,500 for the gasoline model.
Now if you select the TDI option and build your base car with a few reasonable options that are STD. on an '06 HCH it comes to $25,000.
That's a $6,500 premium for the TDI diesel. How much fuel could $6,500 buy?
You'll end up with a more expensive car, a noisier car that is more prone for breakdown, less MPG potential- and have to remember which stations sell diesel fuel pay more per gallon. All that and a car that typically will not last as long as a gasoline model.
You'll end up with a more expensive car, a noisier car that is more prone for breakdown, less MPG potential- and have to remember which stations sell diesel fuel pay more per gallon. All that and a car that typically will not last as long as a gasoline model.
I have very rarely seen 2 sentences with more factual errors in them. Basically everything is wrong except the "more expensive car" comment.
The good news and bad news: you are not comparing apples to apples, but apples to oranges.
So if you want to compare apples to apples, essentially there is no premium over a turbo gassers VW Jetta and a slight premium for the basic model VW gasser.
Apples to oranges, when I got my 2003 TDI, it was essentially 2,000 LESS or a premium for HCH over an TDI. However, since I subsequently got a 2004 Honda Civic, the premium for the HCH was 7500. In the same face off, the premium for the Prius was 12,500.
The Jetta diesel automobile has too high a premium which will never be paid back in fuel savings.
I have no idea where this information has come from but it is all false or extremely misleading. The diesel option for the Jetta adds about $800 - $1000. A package 2 Jetta TDI with leather runs $25,000 and up.
I have no idea where this information has come from but it is all false or extremely misleading.
I would give in on the noisier. That's it. You cannot compare the handling and performance of an HCH to a Jetta TDI. I am sure the HCH is a nice little commuter car. It is way over priced in the major markets. The new HCH W/O NAV that I sat in was $24k and change before TTL. It had a $2k dealer markup. The interesting thing was a brand new Jetta sitting in front of the Honda showroom. I asked if it was a trade-in. No it is the Sales Manager's new car. I said maybe he should park that out back. The salesman agreed.
If you look at the sales statistics the Jetta sold more units in Feb than Prius. Way up from last year. That is without being able to sell their most popular TDI in CA and 4 other states.
PS The HCH did not have leather, Moonroof or 4 wheel disk brakes for $24k. It should not cost over $18k.
You can go to vw.com and build your own Jetta. Base starts at about $18K, and after you finish building your base car goes to about $18,500 for the gasoline model.
That is totally stripped Jetta. You can buy a stripped Civic for $15k, making the HCH $10k more expensive. A PKG 2 top of the line TDI is about $1000 over the Jetta gas equivelant. model. Much more luxury for the money than the HCH.
It comes down to performance and handling vs perceived reliability. Choices, ain't it grand? I find the VW a lot more fun to drive.
lets do a comparo of a diesel Jetta and a non-diesel Jetta.
1.9 TDI vs 2.5 PZEV ... Each has similar performance features.
Each can be ordered with similar niceties such as: JSK, PNV, PMS, JAL, JRS
Edmunds TMV here shows $31100 $28400
With diesel at about a $0.20 premium over unleaded regular and expected EPA FE values of TDI 35/42/36 Gas 22/30/25
One can estimate that at 15000 mi/yr it will cost the TDI $1125 annually ( $2.70/gal ) Gas $1500 annually ( $2.50/gal )
Thus for two vehicles equipped exactly the same it will take... 7.2 years to recover the diesel premium - unless diesel and diesel vehicles get relatively more expensive as ULSD is implemented. ( searching for my own BK franchise )
I just returned from filling up the wife's car with gasoline and then I read about the diesel premium.... :confuse: :sick:
kdhspyder With diesel at about a $0.20 premium over unleaded regular
Diesel is, and has been for the majority of the last 10 years, less costly than regular unleaded. My prediction is that is will take 7.2 years for hybrid hypers to comprehend the facts of hybrid and diesel ownership costs.
Your Region May Vary... At present, here the differential is +0.12 to 0.21.. ( 2.59 Reg vs 2.80 diesel ) YRMV
But it's not the difference in fuel costs that has to be overcome.. it's the $2700 premium on the vehicle that does. The fuel fluctuations only exacerbate the premium and slow down the 'recapture' time.
But I'm sure you knew that already as an astute student of all things diesel.
Wait, using CR's analysis a Jetta TDI buyer today might have to wait longer to recapture the diesel premium than a hybrid buyer does to recapture the hybrid premium!!!
Unbelieveable!! Shocking!!
Solution: Sell diesels only where the cost of diesel fuel is the same or less than regular gasolin. This would bring the diesel and hybrid recapture periods into balance.
Trying to find your point. The Prius not quite as well equipped is #31,754. It is lacking the most important of all extras. NO XM radio and no moonroof. Poor handling and open road performance. So I would take the Jetta sans the JSK Enhanced Styling Package. What a waste of 3 grand. Now the Prius is $3600 more expensive with less fun stuff. Maybe that is why the Jetta is outselling the Prius as the year progresses.
You are missing the whole point. No matter what you do the current hybrids will not run on an alternate fuel source. The VW TDIs can and do in ever larger numbers run on 100% home grown biodiesel. Try running any hybrid on even E85 and it may not make it to the end of the block.
BTW- What is BMW thinking ? Walk like an Egyptian ? Building the over priced 7 series in a third world country like Egypt :confuse: Well perhaps a pyramid, but a premium luxury car :lemon: Well it looks like the 7-series Quality status will be junk unfortunatly. :sick:
> Diesel is, and has been for the majority of the last 10 years, less costly than regular unleaded.
Generalizations like that don't help, since they are rarely correct for everyone. And that definitely isn't the case here.
I cannot recall diesel being less expensive here ever since buying my first Prius 5.5 years ago. 10 to 25 cents more is the norm. And our gas has been 10 percent renewable all that time too.
Diesel is held artificially high or unleaded is held low with hidden taxes. It is plain to see the cost of diesel was lower than unleaded through 2004. In 1999 diesel cost was half of unleaded. Governments like MN & CA are known for regressive taxation. So it is no surprise that gas was cheaper than diesel.
I also would agree. Diesel can also be processed at up to 30% less cost per barrel of "light sweet crude", which as folks know is what most unleaded regular is processed. It is also cheaper to refine diesel than unleaded regular.
Please note that all of us will be taking a hit on the price of fuel this year.
Gassers will take two hits. One for gasoline going to ULS and the other for putting ethanol in the place of MTBE. I think the second hit for the ethanol is going to be bad as E10 in it's present form still has MTBE in it.
Diesel will take a single hit as it goes to ULSD. Another advantage to diesel is that there are no "designer" blends as there are on gasoline. :surprise:
But it's not the difference in fuel costs that has to be overcome.. it's the $2700 premium on the vehicle that does. The fuel fluctuations only exacerbate the premium and slow down the 'recapture' time.
But I'm sure you knew that already as an astute student of all things diesel.
I stand by my earlier sarcastic comment -My prediction is that is will take 7.2 years for hybrid hypers to comprehend the facts of hybrid and diesel ownership costs.
Difference in MSRP of comparable gas vs. diesel Jetta is $1,315. Difference in MSRP of comparable Liberty gas vs. diesel is between $800 and $1000. Difference in MSRP between Mercedes E320 CDI and E350 gas model is $1000.
$2700 premium for diesel ROFLMAO! Only in the land of make believe!
I wasnt bringing up a hybrid to diesel comparo. It was just a like vehicle comparo such as what is done all the time with the HCH/Civic, HAH/Accord, HH/Highlander or new TCH/Camry.
Now that VW is trying to move the Jetta out of playing to the Compact audience, but it's not quite ready for primetime in the midsize theater, The Jetta TDI/Prius might be an interesting analysis since the Prius is also between the Corolla and the Camry.
Since another astute diesel proponent uses the Edmunds TMV for the 'value' of the Prius ( c.f. prior post ) let's keep it all equal and use Edmunds as the referee ( although anyone can buy several Prius' off FitzMall's website at discounts of $1000+ off MSRP at any time ). YRMV
Edmunds has the TDI with the 3 features @ $29300 TMV vs the 2.5 Gasser @ $26800.. That's $2500 difference. We're just using an impartial referee...
ROFLMAO! Only in the land of make believe!shhhh big brother is watching. It doesn't like to be embarrassed.
$2700 premium for diesel ROFLMAO! Only in the land of make believe!
I agree that was an attempt to make the diesel premium as high as the lowest hybrid premium. My Passat TDI was a $200 option on the factory website. I think the current $1315 TDI premium on the Jetta is VW grabbing a little more for the car that is selling best. The VW TDI is in demand as much or more than the hybrids.
A 2005 Passat Wagon TDI just sold on eBay for $27,460 with over 20K miles. That is $2100 over dealer retail price. By contrast the Prii I have tracked rarely get bid up to the minimum reserve.
Edmunds has the TDI with the 3 features $29300 TMV vs the 2.5 Gasser $26800.. That's $2500 difference. We're just using an impartial referee.
That would be fine with me. However when we compare Toyota cars using the TMV comparison you call foul. If you take the MSRP on the basic 2.5 gas & 1.9 TDI without trying to confuse the readers with all the add-ons. The difference is $1315. You can buy a Jetta TDI in Las Vegas, for TMV of $21k on a car with a $22,235 MSRP. That is the closest VW TDI dealer for me in CA. Try to find a Prius for $21k anywhere in the USA. Edmunds also has the TCO higher for the Prius than the VW Jetta TDI.
Getting back to Hybrid pricing. The Prius that comes the closest to the basic Jetta TDI for safety. Is the package #4. That has a TMV in San Diego of $26,047. Is the basic safe Prius worth $5000 more than the basic VW Jetta TDI? I would seriously doubt it.
You mean we cant use Edmunds as the arbitor of TMV for these vehicles?
I like it. I can get a 2007 Camry XLE with leather, NAV, moonroof and VSC for a TMV of $26,844. What was it you said a comparably loaded TCH was going to be, was it $32k?
When I purchased my TDI two years ago, I think the premium was about $1100 over a standard GLS 2.0 (which I would never have purchased the 2.0, if I had gottent he gas I would have gotten the 1.8T, which makes the premium even less, but I digress)...then I talked them down on the MSRP...so let's say that either way I went I would have ended up paying $1100 more for the car.
Here it is two years later.....and I have just traded the car in....let's have a look at the numbers....04 Jetta GLS 2.0 VS 04 Jetta GLS TDI equipped exactly the same....
NADA shows a difference of $2000 AVERAGE TRADE-IN...
KBB shows a difference of $2800 AVERAGE TRADE-IN...
So it appears that at trade-in I got back any premium that I originally paid for purchasing the diesel....on top of the fuel savings over 53K miles.
In addition to a (per your data) 11 second slow, TDI vs a 10.4 second Prius, I have a 4 second Z06. My take: SO WHAT?? .6 seconds slower? Interesting in light of the fact the Prius has way more torque and way more hp than the TDI!!?? Or is this just another one upsmanship comment? OK, let me put one out there; for .6 seconds, the premium is 7,000 dollars?????!!! . So @ 50 mpg and 2.77 per gal (corner store diesel)I can buy 126,354 miles of "commuting".
I am pretty much ok with a buyers parameters for purchasing a (any) vehicle. This is the good/bad news about markets. Again we do not need higher fuel mileage standards we just need cars that actually GET better fuel mileage!!!!
To get back to basics, Edmunds.com in the process of performing what has been for me very critical consumer services one being advancing (or pioneering) the idea of buy cars at or below invoice and/or plus profit. Toyota in the Prius has been wildly successful in reversing that trend where cars are sold at close to OVER MSRP.
I would agree. Almost any car platform has a wide, dare I say HUGE range of prices. Obviously the oem sides goal is to get one to buy ALL of the known options for any particular model and then some.
This is the skeptics fall back position. The alledged premium is so huge the differential will never be recouped. Certainly $7000 will not. However, except in certain well heeled areas like SoCal/SD there is no such premium.
Prius II Pckg#4 vs Jetta TDI Std model ( to equate equipment ) The are very similar in size and performance Wheelbase: .. 106.1 vs 101.5 .. + Prius Alloy whls: .. 15" vs 16" .. + TDI Power seat: .. NA / Std .. + TDI Auto climate: .. Std / NA .. + Prius SC / 8 AB's: .. Pck#4 / Std .. Even SW Audio: .. Std / NA .. + Prius
Brk [non-permissible content removed] + HID's: .. Std / NA .. +Prius HP/Torque/Accel: .. + Prius
Front Leg: .. 41.9 / 41.2 .. Even Rear Leg: .. 38.6 / 35.4 .. +Prius
Trunk Cap: .. 16 ft3 both .. even
MSRP: (per Edmunds ) .. $24329 vs $23300 differential: $1029 (btw, gagrice, buying a Prius off MSRP is a snap.)
That's it in a nutshell: For the same equipment, a little more room and better performance the difference is $1000 for purchasing a Toyota over a VW. The world is in balance and everything is correct. Based on well known reliability issues Toyota's should go for $1000 over equivalent VW's.
Ahh: I Forgot Fuel Economy Annual Fuel cost on 15000 mi: Prius II: GH mean 47.4 mpg - $791 Jetta TDI: ? EPA 36 mpg - $1041 .... $250 advantage Prius
There is no mention here anywhere of tax advantages...
kdhspyderYou mean we cant use Edmunds as the arbitor of TMV for these vehicles? We have to rely on individual anecdotal evidence??? How quickly the worm turns.
MSRP is not anecdotal and the MSRP does not change depending on the negotiating skills of the individual consumer.
Edmunds TMV is a tool that is not accurate for my use. I'm currently negotiating on a vehicle that is MSRP $29,945 and the first quote I've received is $25,776. Edmunds TMV is $26,700. I'm actually surprised the difference is that small. In the past the difference between Edmunds TMV and price I've paid has been as much as $3500, and the price I paid was not the higher number.
We can argue actual selling price all day, why don't we use MSRP and disagree about something more else.
I am guessing that the 396# weight increase will nearly negate the small HP and torque benefit of the hybrid. At 3241# I would expect the 4C Camry XLE to be the best handling of the bunch. I could be wrong, though that was the impression of one writer. I believe he used the term sluggish to describe the TCH. I am sure the TCH will sell with the small numbers Toyota will dribble out. Another reviewer's opinion.
At 3637 pounds, the Camry Hybrid is 150 to 350 pounds heavier than its siblings, a weight penalty that is evident on a two-lane road, where the car falls to its knees if you ask it to negotiate a corner too quickly. But in most driving conditions, the Hybrid is unobtrusive and refined, with smooth—if not terribly fast—power delivery:
Having been in the market for a 2003 and 2004 Prius, (in addition to others) I think for you to say that is the "skeptics" fall back position is straw man at best and not even close to reality, more like it. At those times the negotiated positions were 20,000 2004 HCH, 25,000 2004 Prius with a 3 month wait, 18,000 2003 VW TDI, 12,500 2004 Honda Civic.
My own average for the TDI is very close to your mpg reported on the Prius. However I know that if I drove the Prius like the TDI, my mpg would in all likelihood to FAR less. The best advantage to me is you get great mpg without having to be as careful as with the gasser hybrid. It is nice to have a app 37%diesel structural advantage with little to no effort. I truly do not want or need another job as MPG CZAR or miser.
By the way the EPA for the above TDI is 42/49 and overall the reported figures are on:
There is no mention here anywhere of tax advantages...
I think there are going to be a lot of surprised folks who are thinking they will get the hybrid tax credit. I know I would not get it. I just paid an additional $9640 AMT. Anyone paying AMT will NOT get the tax credit. They say AMT will affect couples with more than $60k per year income.
Based on well known reliability issues Toyota's should go for $1000 over equivalent VW's.
Based on VW handling and safety the Prius should be $1000 less not more...
You can look back and will find that I have recommended the Prius to more prospective buyers than the VW TDIs. For people that drive 20k+ miles per year commuting distances over 20 miles the Prius is a very good choice, if you can get it for MSRP or less. :shades:
The differential is $1029 at purchase which is a normal differential for a Toyota over a VW. The toyota owner gains $250 in savings each year thereafter.
"There is no mention here anywhere of tax advantages...
I think there are going to be a lot of surprised folks who are thinking they will get the hybrid tax credit. I know I would not get it. I just paid an additional $9640 AMT. Anyone paying AMT will NOT get the tax credit. They say AMT will affect couples with more than $60k per year income. "
No good deed goes unpunished!!
I also can write off the 25,000 Prius and or a 20,000 HCH as business expenses. So why would I want to do that when a Civic is 12,500?
The Prius handles about as well and has as much soul as a Walmart shopping cart. I'm shocked that you consider performance only in a straight line. The Jetta handling is superior to the Prius.
Secondly, having steering wheel controls for the crappy audio system in the pkg 4 Prius is no substitute for the much higher quality of sound produced by the VW's audio system.
Third, the seats in the Jetta are superior to the seats in the Prius to the extent that comparing a park bench and a La-z-boy recliner is an appropriate analogy.
Fourth, you imply that the Prius and Jetta are equal for safety regarding the airbags and yet the Jetta has 5 star safety rating for side protection compared to 4 for the Prius. Hmmm...
Fifth, what benefit is brake assist on the Prius when the Jetta stops in a shorter distance 60-0 mph or similar distance to the Prius?
1) I guess then that the TDI is just a shopping cart with one broken wheel. The reviews of it are nothing to be proud about.
2) Eye of the beholder
3) Definitley eye of the beholder. I've never liked any Jetta I've tested and actually love the Prius seating.
4) Are we back on the outdated NHTSA tests again? How about the Euro/NCAP tests?... and what's up with the IIHS anyway? Hello.. the vehicle has been out for 2-1/2 years now.
5) Same braking distance. But why skimp on a common safety feature most modern vehicles have.
You left out..
6) VW reliability... OK let's not go there. That's a worn out issue anyway.
The conclusion is fairly clear.. buy a TDI and get the 100K extended warranty.. buy the Prius and save money in the long run.
I would submit the reliability projections are really being misread. Indeed I run a Honda Civic and TDI side by side. I can say that BOTH at similar mileage have been utterly flawless. If I had some criticisms the Honda Civic seems to be wearing those wear items faster at of course similar mileages !! But indeed I have 72,000 miles on the TDI and 26,000 miles on the Honda. Does that mean that your results WILL in fact be similar? NO!! You could for example, have a Honda go real bad, while the VW is flawless, vice versa and etc.
So one longer run is at app the 100,000 where both require timing belt changes and recommended water pump changes. The cost is app the same, even as if the VW has more dollars and more parts to change.
Hybrids Deal of Dud? I recently made what may be my final auto purchase and used the following information and premise to make my decision. I expect gasoline in the US to cost $3 per gallon in 2006 and increase to $5 by 2008, just in time for the elections. The rest of the world already paying nearly $6 will be paying almost $10 with govt. taxes added before the end of the decade.
2006 Prius vs. Corolla CE 5-speed
You won't get a Prius for less than $22,500 US unless you are related to the dealer. Anyone can get a Corolla CE with 5-speed for $14,000 cash with a little negotiating. (If you must have power windows and locks add $550 for the Corolla upgrade pkg.) Otherwise these cars have similar convenience and utility including std. 15" wheels, AM/FM CD player, filtered AC, full gauges plus outside temp, computerized restraint system, remote mirrors, rear defroster, remote fuel and trunk cables and fold down rear seats to name a few items. The basic price difference is at least $8,500. Each is a low price leader in it's class and has above average reviews for quality and reliability. Big, tall men can even fit easily in the back seat of a Corolla.
At $2.75 a gallon or 0.0723684 per mile a typical 15,000 mile year of fuel would cost $1086 for a Corolla averaging 38 mpg (what I actually get) while the Prius at an owner reported 49 mpg (.05612245 /mile) would cost only $842. saving a whopping $244 a year. At that rate it would take almost 35 years to recover the extra cost of a Prius, not counting the much higher upkeep and repair costs of the hybrid.
Even at $6 a gallon and 60 mpg the hybrid would still not pay for it's extra cost in its useful lifetime. It would take a real global crisis for hybrids at current prices to become cost effective, but under such circumstances their price would increase dramatically, still never paying for themselves.
The only logical conclusion is that hybrids are duds unless their prices drop dramatically. It took 100 years to get the internal combustion gasoline engine to its current state of precision. My 2006 Corolla has a fuel injected, computer controlled, overhead 16-valve engine that rivals Formula-1 cars of a decade ago. Street racers pushing turbo air and nitro into these 4-cylinder engines easily obtain 400 HP or more until they wear out and blow up. With Corolla's relatively tall 3.8 final drive ratio it gets an honest 41 mpg at highway speeds and does nearly as well in suburban driving. Honda's new Civic automatic gets better mileage than a standard transmission. Maybe in a decade of producing mostly hybrids, automakers will be able to produce them far cheaper while increasing their efficiency a bit. Until then, they are for fools and geeks.
Your analysis is correct and has been proven many times here and elsewhere. It makes NO sense whatsoever to buy a hybrid in order to save money. End of story.
OTOH only someone with money to burn would buy a new Corolla for $15-16000 when you can get a perfectly good Certified Corolla with 40-50K miles on it for $10-11000 and drive it for the next 10 years problem free.
You will never recover that $5000 new car premium.
Oh, one question. What if the Corolla/Civic/Sentra/Elantra/Cobalt is too small?
I agree used cars are generally a much better deal but I couldn't find a used Corolla 5-speed for less than $11k. I hate automatics. I'm glad I got a 2006. It has roller bearings in the shifter (since 2005), is easier to add tint to the rear window with stop light now incorporated into the rear deck, and has a wild candy apple paint job.
I plan to put at least 150,000 miles on this car over the next 15 years so the new car premium will average out. I paid $13,750 out the door and got rid of a junk American car for more than it was worth just before it imploded. Otherwise I'd have waited for a nice used one.
As for being too small, I'm 6 FT, 250 with extra long lower legs and I fit nicely in a Corolla switching from a Chrysler LHS with no loss of comfort or crash rating at all. Even the back seat is comfortable and has enough leg room for me. The new Civic feels like sitting in a go-cart but has an extra inch more legroom. If you just need more space than that, consider a Jetta or maybe the hybrid Camry if you can get a good price on it.
Well the issues here about a used hybrid is particularly anecdotal, in that there is a VERY thin used market. The sword dangling over the head by a thread is of course the cost (unknowns) of new replacement batteries, and of course, the drivetrain. How many folks have actually bought a used hybrid with 40-50k miles and driven it problem free for the next 10 years?
Comments
you wrote:
If the logic on this board is any indication hybrids advocates say the hybrids are "THE answer" for those GAS GUZZLING SUV's
I responded:
the big rigs probably all belong as diesels given the present technology.
If the vehicle is too small or uncomfortable then it's out of the comparo, it doesnt matter what the price is.
As in all the comparo's here neither the Corolla nor the Avensis is the exact model for comparison purposes. Just as here the Prius is very precisely placed between the two
Yes, Toyta was astute in making the Prius unique. If there was a non-hybrid Prius the sales of the hybrid Prius would tank.
But the Prius is unique and so it's successful..
Now the TCH this year will be a different story. That will tell a lot. Do buyers shun it because it's more expensive than the ICE 4c or do they snap it up because it's in the same range as the ICE V6 but with much better FE?
1. The article talks about increased fuel filter maintenance. Not so. The fuel will be cleaner.
2. Lubricity. A lot of mixed info on that. Maybe for real old diesels, but I doubt it. My guess is that oil companies will add something to remedy this. Add 2% biodiesel to get that lubricity back.
3. Additional cost of ULSD, about 4-7cents per gallon. Gasoline goes ULS too so expect about the same additional cost.
4. Price differential. That assumption is worthless. I am finding diesel for less than regular, though not at the same station.
5. For MY 2005, a diesel engine was a $275 option in a Passat. In my CRD it was $846.
link title
Pay the a visit. You will discover that in many places diesel costs less than mid-grade gasoline and only a few cents more than regular gasoline.
You can go to vw.com and build your own Jetta.
Base starts at about $18K, and after you finish building your base car goes to about $18,500 for the gasoline model.
Now if you select the TDI option and build your base car with a few reasonable options that are STD. on an '06 HCH it comes to $25,000.
That's a $6,500 premium for the TDI diesel.
How much fuel could $6,500 buy?
You'll end up with a more expensive car, a noisier car that is more prone for breakdown, less MPG potential- and have to remember which stations sell diesel fuel pay more per gallon.
All that and a car that typically will not last as long as a gasoline model.
All that and a car that typically will not last as long as a gasoline model.
I have very rarely seen 2 sentences with more factual errors in them.
Basically everything is wrong except the "more expensive car" comment.
So if you want to compare apples to apples, essentially there is no premium over a turbo gassers VW Jetta and a slight premium for the basic model VW gasser.
Apples to oranges, when I got my 2003 TDI, it was essentially 2,000 LESS or a premium for HCH over an TDI. However, since I subsequently got a 2004 Honda Civic, the premium for the HCH was 7500. In the same face off, the premium for the Prius was 12,500.
I have no idea where this information has come from but it is all false or extremely misleading. The diesel option for the Jetta adds about $800 - $1000. A package 2 Jetta TDI with leather runs $25,000 and up.
I would give in on the noisier. That's it. You cannot compare the handling and performance of an HCH to a Jetta TDI. I am sure the HCH is a nice little commuter car. It is way over priced in the major markets. The new HCH W/O NAV that I sat in was $24k and change before TTL. It had a $2k dealer markup. The interesting thing was a brand new Jetta sitting in front of the Honda showroom. I asked if it was a trade-in. No it is the Sales Manager's new car. I said maybe he should park that out back. The salesman agreed.
If you look at the sales statistics the Jetta sold more units in Feb than Prius. Way up from last year. That is without being able to sell their most popular TDI in CA and 4 other states.
PS
The HCH did not have leather, Moonroof or 4 wheel disk brakes for $24k. It should not cost over $18k.
That is totally stripped Jetta. You can buy a stripped Civic for $15k, making the HCH $10k more expensive. A PKG 2 top of the line TDI is about $1000 over the Jetta gas equivelant. model. Much more luxury for the money than the HCH.
It comes down to performance and handling vs perceived reliability. Choices, ain't it grand? I find the VW a lot more fun to drive.
1.9 TDI vs 2.5 PZEV ... Each has similar performance features.
Each can be ordered with similar niceties such as:
JSK, PNV, PMS, JAL, JRS
Edmunds TMV here shows
$31100
$28400
With diesel at about a $0.20 premium over unleaded regular and expected EPA FE values of
TDI 35/42/36
Gas 22/30/25
One can estimate that at 15000 mi/yr it will cost the
TDI $1125 annually ( $2.70/gal )
Gas $1500 annually ( $2.50/gal )
Thus for two vehicles equipped exactly the same it will take... 7.2 years to recover the diesel premium - unless diesel and diesel vehicles get relatively more expensive as ULSD is implemented. ( searching for my own BK franchise )
Where have I heard this before?
$2.37/g diesel
I just returned from filling up the wife's car with gasoline and then I read about the diesel premium.... :confuse: :sick:
kdhspyder With diesel at about a $0.20 premium over unleaded regular
Diesel is, and has been for the majority of the last 10 years, less costly than regular unleaded.
My prediction is that is will take 7.2 years for hybrid hypers to comprehend the facts of hybrid and diesel ownership costs.
But it's not the difference in fuel costs that has to be overcome.. it's the $2700 premium on the vehicle that does. The fuel fluctuations only exacerbate the premium and slow down the 'recapture' time.
But I'm sure you knew that already as an astute student of all things diesel.
Wait, using CR's analysis a Jetta TDI buyer today might have to wait longer to recapture the diesel premium than a hybrid buyer does to recapture the hybrid premium!!!
Unbelieveable!! Shocking!!
Solution: Sell diesels only where the cost of diesel fuel is the same or less than regular gasolin. This would bring the diesel and hybrid recapture periods into balance.
ergo TMV Price differential is 'only' $2500..
If diesel then is the same price as Regular gas then the recapture period is only 65 mo's. That sounds awfully like the HCH vs Gasser Civic analysis.
Jetta 1.9 TDI $31100
Trying to find your point. The Prius not quite as well equipped is #31,754. It is lacking the most important of all extras. NO XM radio and no moonroof. Poor handling and open road performance. So I would take the Jetta sans the JSK Enhanced Styling Package. What a waste of 3 grand. Now the Prius is $3600 more expensive with less fun stuff. Maybe that is why the Jetta is outselling the Prius as the year progresses.
You are missing the whole point. No matter what you do the current hybrids will not run on an alternate fuel source. The VW TDIs can and do in ever larger numbers run on 100% home grown biodiesel. Try running any hybrid on even E85 and it may not make it to the end of the block.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109748
I sure wouldn't want to drive the test mules.
KaBooooooom !!!!! :surprise:
BTW- What is BMW thinking ? Walk like an Egyptian ? Building the over priced 7 series in a third world country like Egypt :confuse: Well perhaps a pyramid, but a premium luxury car :lemon: Well it looks like the 7-series Quality status will be junk unfortunatly. :sick:
Rocky
Generalizations like that don't help, since they are rarely correct for everyone. And that definitely isn't the case here.
I cannot recall diesel being less expensive here ever since buying my first Prius 5.5 years ago. 10 to 25 cents more is the norm. And our gas has been 10 percent renewable all that time too.
JOHN
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0522.html
Most noteworthy about your cited articles is they say not word one about the cost per gal of hydrogen (by weight) and the mpg.
Gassers will take two hits. One for gasoline going to ULS and the other for putting ethanol in the place of MTBE. I think the second hit for the ethanol is going to be bad as E10 in it's present form still has MTBE in it.
Diesel will take a single hit as it goes to ULSD. Another advantage to diesel is that there are no "designer" blends as there are on gasoline. :surprise:
But I'm sure you knew that already as an astute student of all things diesel.
I stand by my earlier sarcastic comment -My prediction is that is will take 7.2 years for hybrid hypers to comprehend the facts of hybrid and diesel ownership costs.
Difference in MSRP of comparable gas vs. diesel Jetta is $1,315.
Difference in MSRP of comparable Liberty gas vs. diesel is between $800 and $1000.
Difference in MSRP between Mercedes E320 CDI and E350 gas model is $1000.
$2700 premium for diesel ROFLMAO! Only in the land of make believe!
Now that VW is trying to move the Jetta out of playing to the Compact audience, but it's not quite ready for primetime in the midsize theater, The Jetta TDI/Prius might be an interesting analysis since the Prius is also between the Corolla and the Camry.
Let's run some numbers: (next post)
Edmunds has the TDI with the 3 features @ $29300 TMV vs the 2.5 Gasser @ $26800.. That's $2500 difference. We're just using an impartial referee...
ROFLMAO! Only in the land of make believe! shhhh big brother is watching. It doesn't like to be embarrassed.
I agree that was an attempt to make the diesel premium as high as the lowest hybrid premium. My Passat TDI was a $200 option on the factory website. I think the current $1315 TDI premium on the Jetta is VW grabbing a little more for the car that is selling best. The VW TDI is in demand as much or more than the hybrids.
A 2005 Passat Wagon TDI just sold on eBay for $27,460 with over 20K miles. That is $2100 over dealer retail price. By contrast the Prii I have tracked rarely get bid up to the minimum reserve.
You mean we cant use Edmunds as the arbitor of TMV for these vehicles? We have to rely on individual anecdotal evidence??? How quickly the worm turns.
Darn, there goes the whole thread... OK I wont put the beloved TDI's under the spotlight any more. Sorry I apologize.
PriusII 10.4 sec 0-60
Jetta TDI 11.0 sec 0-60
Alright, I'll stop. Have fun.
That would be fine with me. However when we compare Toyota cars using the TMV comparison you call foul. If you take the MSRP on the basic 2.5 gas & 1.9 TDI without trying to confuse the readers with all the add-ons. The difference is $1315. You can buy a Jetta TDI in Las Vegas, for TMV of $21k on a car with a $22,235 MSRP. That is the closest VW TDI dealer for me in CA. Try to find a Prius for $21k anywhere in the USA. Edmunds also has the TCO higher for the Prius than the VW Jetta TDI.
Getting back to Hybrid pricing. The Prius that comes the closest to the basic Jetta TDI for safety. Is the package #4. That has a TMV in San Diego of $26,047. Is the basic safe Prius worth $5000 more than the basic VW Jetta TDI? I would seriously doubt it.
I like it. I can get a 2007 Camry XLE with leather, NAV, moonroof and VSC for a TMV of $26,844. What was it you said a comparably loaded TCH was going to be, was it $32k?
Here it is two years later.....and I have just traded the car in....let's have a look at the numbers....04 Jetta GLS 2.0 VS 04 Jetta GLS TDI equipped exactly the same....
NADA shows a difference of $2000 AVERAGE TRADE-IN...
KBB shows a difference of $2800 AVERAGE TRADE-IN...
So it appears that at trade-in I got back any premium that I originally paid for purchasing the diesel....on top of the fuel savings over 53K miles.
I am pretty much ok with a buyers parameters for purchasing a (any) vehicle. This is the good/bad news about markets. Again we do not need higher fuel mileage standards we just need cars that actually GET better fuel mileage!!!!
To get back to basics, Edmunds.com in the process of performing what has been for me very critical consumer services one being advancing (or pioneering) the idea of buy cars at or below invoice and/or plus profit. Toyota in the Prius has been wildly successful in reversing that trend where cars are sold at close to OVER MSRP.
Even if it was that much it would only be half the premium you would pay for the TCH vs a Camry XLE.
This is the skeptics fall back position. The alledged premium is so huge the differential will never be recouped. Certainly $7000 will not. However, except in certain well heeled areas like SoCal/SD there is no such premium.
Prius II Pckg#4 vs Jetta TDI Std model ( to equate equipment )
The are very similar in size and performance
Wheelbase: .. 106.1 vs 101.5 .. + Prius
Alloy whls: .. 15" vs 16" .. + TDI
Power seat: .. NA / Std .. + TDI
Auto climate: .. Std / NA .. + Prius
SC / 8 AB's: .. Pck#4 / Std .. Even
SW Audio: .. Std / NA .. + Prius
Brk [non-permissible content removed] + HID's: .. Std / NA .. +Prius
HP/Torque/Accel: .. + Prius
Front Leg: .. 41.9 / 41.2 .. Even
Rear Leg: .. 38.6 / 35.4 .. +Prius
Trunk Cap: .. 16 ft3 both .. even
MSRP: (per Edmunds ) .. $24329 vs $23300
differential: $1029 (btw, gagrice, buying a Prius off MSRP is a snap.)
That's it in a nutshell:
For the same equipment, a little more room and better performance the difference is $1000 for purchasing a Toyota over a VW. The world is in balance and everything is correct. Based on well known reliability issues Toyota's should go for $1000 over equivalent VW's.
Ahh: I Forgot Fuel Economy
Annual Fuel cost on 15000 mi:
Prius II: GH mean 47.4 mpg - $791
Jetta TDI: ? EPA 36 mpg - $1041 .... $250 advantage Prius
There is no mention here anywhere of tax advantages...
MSRP is not anecdotal and the MSRP does not change depending on the negotiating skills of the individual consumer.
Edmunds TMV is a tool that is not accurate for my use.
I'm currently negotiating on a vehicle that is MSRP $29,945 and the first quote I've received is $25,776. Edmunds TMV is $26,700. I'm actually surprised the difference is that small. In the past the difference between Edmunds TMV and price I've paid has been as much as $3500, and the price I paid was not the higher number.
We can argue actual selling price all day, why don't we use MSRP and disagree about something more else.
I am guessing that the 396# weight increase will nearly negate the small HP and torque benefit of the hybrid. At 3241# I would expect the 4C Camry XLE to be the best handling of the bunch. I could be wrong, though that was the impression of one writer. I believe he used the term sluggish to describe the TCH. I am sure the TCH will sell with the small numbers Toyota will dribble out. Another reviewer's opinion.
At 3637 pounds, the Camry Hybrid is 150 to 350 pounds heavier than its siblings, a weight penalty that is evident on a two-lane road, where the car falls to its knees if you ask it to negotiate a corner too quickly. But in most driving conditions, the Hybrid is unobtrusive and refined, with smooth—if not terribly fast—power delivery:
2007 Camry
My own average for the TDI is very close to your mpg reported on the Prius. However I know that if I drove the Prius like the TDI, my mpg would in all likelihood to FAR less. The best advantage to me is you get great mpg without having to be as careful as with the gasser hybrid. It is nice to have a app 37%diesel structural advantage with little to no effort. I truly do not want or need another job as MPG CZAR or miser.
By the way the EPA for the above TDI is 42/49 and overall the reported figures are on:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/
I think there are going to be a lot of surprised folks who are thinking they will get the hybrid tax credit. I know I would not get it. I just paid an additional $9640 AMT. Anyone paying AMT will NOT get the tax credit. They say AMT will affect couples with more than $60k per year income.
Based on well known reliability issues Toyota's should go for $1000 over equivalent VW's.
Based on VW handling and safety the Prius should be $1000 less not more...
You can look back and will find that I have recommended the Prius to more prospective buyers than the VW TDIs. For people that drive 20k+ miles per year commuting distances over 20 miles the Prius is a very good choice, if you can get it for MSRP or less. :shades:
MSRP's: Prius II, Pckg #4 vs Jetta TDI std equp.
The differential is $1029 at purchase which is a normal differential for a Toyota over a VW. The toyota owner gains $250 in savings each year thereafter.
I think there are going to be a lot of surprised folks who are thinking they will get the hybrid tax credit. I know I would not get it. I just paid an additional $9640 AMT. Anyone paying AMT will NOT get the tax credit. They say AMT will affect couples with more than $60k per year income. "
No good deed goes unpunished!!
I also can write off the 25,000 Prius and or a 20,000 HCH as business expenses. So why would I want to do that when a Civic is 12,500?
I'm shocked that you consider performance only in a straight line. The Jetta handling is superior to the Prius.
Secondly, having steering wheel controls for the crappy audio system in the pkg 4 Prius is no substitute for the much higher quality of sound produced by the VW's audio system.
Third, the seats in the Jetta are superior to the seats in the Prius to the extent that comparing a park bench and a La-z-boy recliner is an appropriate analogy.
Fourth, you imply that the Prius and Jetta are equal for safety regarding the airbags and yet the Jetta has 5 star safety rating for side protection compared to 4 for the Prius. Hmmm...
Fifth, what benefit is brake assist on the Prius when the Jetta stops in a shorter distance 60-0 mph or similar distance to the Prius?
I don't want to be the nut in your nutshell. :P
2) Eye of the beholder
3) Definitley eye of the beholder. I've never liked any Jetta I've tested and actually love the Prius seating.
4) Are we back on the outdated NHTSA tests again? How about the Euro/NCAP tests?... and what's up with the IIHS anyway? Hello.. the vehicle has been out for 2-1/2 years now.
5) Same braking distance. But why skimp on a common safety feature most modern vehicles have.
You left out..
6) VW reliability... OK let's not go there. That's a worn out issue anyway.
The conclusion is fairly clear.. buy a TDI and get the 100K extended warranty.. buy the Prius and save money in the long run.
So one longer run is at app the 100,000 where both require timing belt changes and recommended water pump changes. The cost is app the same, even as if the VW has more dollars and more parts to change.
I recently made what may be my final auto purchase and used the following information and premise to make my decision. I expect gasoline in the US to cost $3 per gallon in 2006 and increase to $5 by 2008, just in time for the elections. The rest of the world already paying nearly $6 will be paying almost $10 with govt. taxes added before the end of the decade.
2006 Prius vs. Corolla CE 5-speed
You won't get a Prius for less than $22,500 US unless you are related to the dealer. Anyone can get a Corolla CE with 5-speed for $14,000 cash with a little negotiating. (If you must have power windows and locks add $550 for the Corolla upgrade pkg.) Otherwise these cars have similar convenience and utility including std. 15" wheels, AM/FM CD player, filtered AC, full gauges plus outside temp, computerized restraint system, remote mirrors, rear defroster, remote fuel and trunk cables and fold down rear seats to name a few items. The basic price difference is at least $8,500. Each is a low price leader in it's class and has above average reviews for quality and reliability. Big, tall men can even fit easily in the back seat of a Corolla.
At $2.75 a gallon or 0.0723684 per mile a typical 15,000 mile year of fuel would cost $1086 for a Corolla averaging 38 mpg (what I actually get) while the Prius at an owner reported 49 mpg (.05612245 /mile) would cost only $842. saving a whopping $244 a year. At that rate it would take almost 35 years to recover the extra cost of a Prius, not counting the much higher upkeep and repair costs of the hybrid.
Even at $6 a gallon and 60 mpg the hybrid would still not pay for it's extra cost in its useful lifetime. It would take a real global crisis for hybrids at current prices to become cost effective, but under such circumstances their price would increase dramatically, still never paying for themselves.
The only logical conclusion is that hybrids are duds unless their prices drop dramatically. It took 100 years to get the internal combustion gasoline engine to its current state of precision. My 2006 Corolla has a fuel injected, computer controlled, overhead 16-valve engine that rivals Formula-1 cars of a decade ago. Street racers pushing turbo air and nitro into these 4-cylinder engines easily obtain 400 HP or more until they wear out and blow up. With Corolla's relatively tall 3.8 final drive ratio it gets an honest 41 mpg at highway speeds and does nearly as well in suburban driving. Honda's new Civic automatic gets better mileage than a standard transmission. Maybe in a decade of producing mostly hybrids, automakers will be able to produce them far cheaper while increasing their efficiency a bit. Until then, they are for fools and geeks.
OTOH only someone with money to burn would buy a new Corolla for $15-16000 when you can get a perfectly good Certified Corolla with 40-50K miles on it for $10-11000 and drive it for the next 10 years problem free.
You will never recover that $5000 new car premium.
Oh, one question. What if the Corolla/Civic/Sentra/Elantra/Cobalt is too small?
I plan to put at least 150,000 miles on this car over the next 15 years so the new car premium will average out. I paid $13,750 out the door and got rid of a junk American car for more than it was worth just before it imploded. Otherwise I'd have waited for a nice used one.
As for being too small, I'm 6 FT, 250 with extra long lower legs and I fit nicely in a Corolla switching from a Chrysler LHS with no loss of comfort or crash rating at all. Even the back seat is comfortable and has enough leg room for me. The new Civic feels like sitting in a go-cart but has an extra inch more legroom. If you just need more space than that, consider a Jetta or maybe the hybrid Camry if you can get a good price on it.