So if I figure this correctly it takes one barrel or 42 gals of oil to make 44 gals of ethanol which has 25% less energy than oil and equals the same energy as 33 gals of oil.
Use 42 gals of oil to make 44 gals of ethanol from corn with an energy loss of 25% is = to 33 gals of oil gives me a net loss of 9 gallons of oil. :sick: Does anybody else know about this? :surprise:
Seems to me as a source of "comparison" (not direct)your post might be closer (than mine) to " sound bite able".
So as a direct result, IF ethanol were to sell for MORE per gal, (you know SOSDD) then in effect the greater consumption (or less efficiency) has even MORE potential for cash flow!!??
So for example a bushel of corn (2.37 per bushel yields 2.5 gal of ethanol (read this in passing so PLEASE do not take this as gospel) cost = .948 cents per gal.
Yea I saw it and dateline had the same story of ethanol and gave a similar story of the real benifits to using ethanol and how easy it was to make and the cost. With paire grass it could make .75.gal. now that was a shock.
Yea to bad they didn't also include Biodeisel, not the B20 but B100. At least with Biodiesel you get more mileage than gas like an other diesel. And ethanol get 10% less mileage than gas but if cheap enough....why not.
..."Ethanol Production ... Average subsidy = $0.4464 / per bushel. The USDA tells us the conversion rate of corn to ethanol is 2.5 gallon per bushel."...
So you can quote this!? I do not necessarily agree or disagree with some of the conclusions.
So the cost of raw materials to yield 19.3 gals of gas is at 70 per barrel or 42 gals of oil. To yield 19.3 gals of ethanol at 2.5 gal per bushel x 2.37 per bushel = 7.73 bushels= 18.30 Even when the loss of efficiency is factored in the raw material costs will be cheaper 3.83x
Your link is pretty damning evidence against corn based ethanol as a replacement for fossil fuel. Notice they never compare it to diesel or biodiesel where it is a horrible imbalance. Ethanol is our typical kneejerk reaction to every problem we face.
The energy diagram above shows that, to save 1 GG of energy, four times that much ethanol energy must be produced. That ethanol must all be purchased and used in cars and trucks. Consequently, the extra cost of replacing a gallon of gas must be paid four times over.
Very impressive web site ruking1. What a Rube Goldberg solution to a very simple problem, but it does create a lot of investment opportunities to skim those transportation dollars from the backs of us working people.
sell it for more than you paid !!! This is VERY VERY VERY rare I might add!!
Be assured it is a first for me. All the stars had to line up just right. The down side is I should have advertised it for the same as the other one in the Trader at $32k. I thought $29k was pushing it. First caller from AZ bought it sight unseen. I had 4 more cash buyers lined up if he did not come through on the money transfer. Only two 2005 Passat TDI Wagons in the country for sale. I will miss the car I am sure. The $900 insurance premium will more than make up for the difference in fuel for my GMC PU truck to take its place.
Cars, Pickups and SUVs – By 2009, both gasoline and diesel cars, pickups and SUVs – regardless of fuel type and engine size – will meet the same stringent emissions standards. In the coming years, consumers can expect to see more diesel options in showrooms and will ultimately benefit from diesel’s greater fuel efficiency (typically 20 to 40 percent more miles per gallon than a comparable gasoline version). http://www.dieselforum.org/newsarticle/article/474/51/
That is good news. Hopefully it trickles down to vehicles you and I would like to see. Did you notice no Japanese manufacturers were involved. That could mean that the domestics will get a leg up on small diesel cars & trucks.
While your cited reference might on the surface not have any depth, the fact of the matter is on foreign and domestic oil importation and production can literally be profound. I do not want to talk like Carl Sagan the astronomer and say millions upon billions but consider this. IF the passenger car diesel fleet were indeed 23% and or more we would probably import app 50% less barrels of oil. 42 gals in a barrel 46% 19.3 gals of that is unleaded regular and INXS of 23% 9.83 gals of that is diesel.
us diesel fiends are going to have a tough year or two waiting for new diesel vehicle options in USA! it's almost enough for me to consider looking at a hybrid in the meantime. naaaah. i do >95% highway driving and i think hybrids are useless for that: all the hybrid electronics and batteries are "dead weight" on a long highway cruise.
Carl Sagan never said "millions and billions" or "billions and billions". he was at least mildly annoyed that he was attributed with saying something as redundant/moronic as that. "billions and billions" became popular via the SNL/other parodies of Sagan...
In typical fashion it's just a matter of time. Throughout the world Toyota and Nissan are primarily diesel truck manufacturers. In Thailand, which is the largest truck manufacturing country outside the US Toyota, Nissan and Ford all have huge factories making Tacoma, Frontier, Ranger equivalents for the Asian market.
When ULSD is accepted in all 50 states and diesel vehicles are not penalized these 3 will be in the US on the first boat. Ford is NOT investing in it's Ranger plant here ( and may actually close it ) because it knows in a year or two it can import Rangers from Thailand, diesel and gassers, not made by the unions.
Autos? Same situation. Look at Europe as a launch pad for diesels from every manufacturer. the problem for the domestics is that building auto's in the US is not cost effective due to the huge union burden. I expect all of the 'detroiters' auto production to be moved outside our borders ( except high-end products ). Opel, Ford Europe and DC could have large diesel production in Europe and Mexico and just import these here - thus avoiding the UAW and IBEW and Teamsters.
Here's irony. In 10 years Toyota, Honda and Hyundai as US manufacturers file dumping suits against GM, Ford and DC as importers for auto's dumped and unfairly priced in the US market. What a hoot that would be.
i do >95% highway driving and i think hybrids are useless for that: all the hybrid electronics and batteries are "dead weight" on a long highway cruise
A common misconception.
At similar driving characteristics as yours, 85% Hwy, on my 40,000 annual miles i'm getting exactly 2.0 GPC ( Gal/100 mi ) since the weather moderated. This is better than 99% of the rest of the vehicles on the road.
"i do >95% highway driving and i think hybrids are useless for that: all the hybrid electronics and batteries are "dead weight" on a long highway cruise
A common misconception.
At similar driving characteristics as yours, 85% Hwy, on my 40,000 annual miles i'm getting exactly 2.0 GPC ( Gal/100 mi ) since the weather moderated. This is better than 99% of the rest of the vehicles on the road. "
I do not think this is a misconception at all. If anything the GASSERS as in gasser hybrid do not deal with added weight as well as a diesel. ( in terms of mpg)
On my last trip with 4 folks I got 49 mpg with #2 diesel. I was used to getting 50 mpg and up under the same cruising speed/range, but knew that an extra 250#'s and 25#'s or so of extra luggage would make some difference as I am used to cruising with only 3 folks in the car with luggage. So it would be and interesting question what would be the difference in mpg with an added 275#s. I would SWAG it would be greater than 1 mpg for the gasser/hybrid.
i don't think it's a misconception. i'm trying to compare apples-to-apples as much as possible. for my 95% highway driving i'd prefer a honda civic NON-hybrid to a civic hybrid, or whatever is toyota's closest non-hybrid equivalent to a prius. corolla i suppose. i stand by my point that hybrids are a big waste of energy, time, money for highway driving. a pal of mine has a civic hybrid and a long freeway commute. he gets 38 mpg. we get 38 mpg with our passat TDI - and Passat is a bigger/safer/better-handling car than civic hybrid. advantage: VW TDI! imho say new jetta tdi is better than prius or civic hybrid for highway cruising... recent car&driver article seems to agree with that. i do think hybrids are great for those who do plenty of city or stop-and-go driving. credit where due ! in other news, wouldn't it be great for the environment if hybrids were *never* allowed in the carpool lanes! they should be restricted to the busy/stop-and-go lanes - it's better for the environment!
Since you are using the comparison, let me weigh in a Honda Civic gasser. In a plain vanilla commute we get 37-40 mpg with the Honda Civic. On the road with two folks and luggage and 80-90 mph cruising we get 37 mpg.
Doing the SAME commute we get 50-52 mpg with the TDI.
At similar driving characteristics as yours, 85% Hwy, on my 40,000 annual miles i'm getting exactly 2.0 GPC ( Gal/100 mi )
How would your mileage be at the realistic highway speeds most people in this country drive? I am talking about 75 MPH plus. I just spent a week roaming through TX. Almost all of their state highways were 2 lane and posted 75 MPH. The reduced speed for small towns was 65 MPH or 55 MPH. New Mexico and AZ had similar postings though slower through towns. CA is posted 65-70-75 MPH on the freeways. Average speed on most freeways is 75 MPH.
Driving a Jetta or Beetle TDI I would say you can get 60+ MPG driving at low speeds like 55-60 MPH. It is not difficult to get 50 MPG at 75 MPH in a Jetta TDI.
PS Carl Sagan was a goof ball and not only did he say billions & billions, he wrote a book by that title.
i stand by my point that hybrids are a big waste of energy, time, money for highway driving. a pal of mine has a civic hybrid and a long freeway commute. he gets 38 mpg. we get 38 mpg with our passat TDI - and Passat is a bigger/safer/better-handling car than civic hybrid. advantage: VW TDI! imho say new jetta tdi is better than prius or civic hybrid for highway cruising... recent car&driver article seems to agree with that. i do think hybrids are great for those who do plenty of city or stop-and-go driving. credit where due !
Again yours is a common misconception about the Hwy performance of the Prius in particular. On the HCH you are correct. The Jetta TDI and the Prius are nearly exactly the same size and perform similarly. These are the two that offer the closest comparison to each other.
As recorded on GreenHybrid: my last 9 tankfuls since the weather moderated; 85% Hwy @ ~63 mph on avg MPG - Mi - Gal ....GPC ( Gal consumed/100 mi ) 50.8 - 503 - 9.9 ... 1.99 GPC 48.8 - 498 - 10.2 ... 2.05 GPC 51.9 - 514 - 9.9 ... 1.93 GPC 48.4 - 532 - 11.0 ... 2.07 GPC 50.9 - 519 - 10.2 ... 1.96 GPC 50.3 - 493 - 9.8 ... 1.99 GPC 51.2 - 517 - 10.1 ... 1.96 GPC 44.2 - 469 - 10.6 ... 2.26 GPC 55.7 - 512 - 9.2 ... 1.80 GPC
fwiw, when the road is clear enough, my highway driving speed is approximately 79.99 mph since 99.99% cops are fine with that. i used to get 48 mpg tank after tank at that speed with my 2003 jetta TDI. as for Sagan & billions-and-billions, have you read the first page of the book - it agrees with what he told me personally in 1983 and what i posted above. i used to think he was a goofball too until he spoke to our small class off-the-cuff about planetary magnetospheres.
For that ask the members on GH or PC that live in wide open areas with few controls.
Personally, going 8 mi over the speed limit is sufficient where 64 is safe and 66 is a ticket on a rural 5 lane road with troopers ( 2 ), sheriff's deputies ( 3 ) and unmarked cruisers ( 2 ) along a 60 mile route every day/night.
I think the term goof ball can apply to many people that are in the category of "Genius". He did make many statements that have been scientifically refuted. I do think his contribution, was one of opening young eyes to scientific study. In that he was a lighthouse to our youth and young at heart. In fairness I have not read anything he has written since the 1970s.
my point about hybrids on the highway is that the batteries/hybrid-aspects provide no benefit for extended highway cruising - that in fact they are a detriment for any highway cruise longer than "N" miles (what is N? 30? 50? 100?). but maybe the extra weight only costs a couple of mpgat most. in any case, i'd rather see the batteries & hybrid electronics on vehicles used for city driving, where there would be a more return-on-investment. hence the wonderfully contrarian idea of banning hybrids from carpool lanes - let them shine in stop & go traffic instead!
hence the wonderfully contrarian idea of banning hybrids from carpool lanes - let them shine in stop & go traffic instead!
I believe I can show evidence that hybrids in the HOV lanes has caused more of a negative view of the hybrids than any other aspect. I would rather see an all electric vehicle or a diesel vehicle than any complex combination the automakers may come up with. The one thing I agreed with from the last administration was the term KISS.
Again I would agree but since the Prius gets 49 mpg overall most folks who have had vehicles with less mpg really could care less. However as you point out some of this stuff is really about comparison. So for example my TDI weighs in at 2950% and my Honda Civic weighs in at 2525? Or 425 #'s lighter than the TDI. Yet the TDI gets easily 12-13 miles per gal better under similar conditions. However if we were to compare 2 identical Honda Civics but one with 425#'s more I am sure the results are predictable.
that's a nice idea, but nobody is going to buy a car that is only good in city driving. Since most people do more than half of their driving time in city driving, what do we need to do to get them to buy a car that will excel in that driving, but not be a hazard to them and the rest of us while on the highway? The Prius, Camry, Civic, etc. are all good compromises. No, it is not "optimal," but I don't think we should wait for optimal. We don't wait for optimal in any other technology choices (computers, digital cameras, medicine, etc. etc.), so why force the automotive technology into that impossible category?
if HOV lanes are underutilized, we should find a way to utilize them. That is simple. HOV lanes are not the private property of the people who use them. They belong to ALL of us, and they should be used for their intended purpose, which is to decrease pollution and gas consumption. Letting hybrids use those lanes does do both of those things. If there are better ways to use those lanes, we should also consider that.
If you don't let hybrid drivers use the HOV lanes, you aren't going to sell as many, so they aren't going to "shine in stop and go traffic, instead"
my point about hybrids on the highway is that the batteries/hybrid-aspects provide no benefit for extended highway cruising - that in fact they are a detriment for any highway cruise longer than "N" miles (what is N? 30? 50? 100?). but maybe the extra weight only costs a couple of mpgat most.
You are so wrong on this that it seems that you don't understand the HSD system at all.
Basic question: The 1.5L engine in the Prius drives a vehicle which is at least 25% heavier than the other vehicles it powers such as the Yaris, the xA and the xB. Yet in the Prius the actual highway fuel consumption is 2.0 GPC or less while in the other three it's 2.63 GPC. How does this same engine drive a much heavier vehicle and still get 25% better fuel economy on the highway? It's the effect of the batteries.... even at highway speeds.
Yes in the City the batteries provide even greater fuel economy probably in the range of 50%.
To your final statement why then is saving 25-30% of the fuel we use in highway driving not worthwhile?
I do understand that you are looking at it from your local Californian view and the HOV issue is sticky. I do agree with you on it. In the rest of the country ( VA? ) it's a non-issue.
Complex or not in design the HCH and the Prius are just autos that get good fuel economy and need nothing more than normal maintenance on the ICE.
Volkswagen has reported TDI diesel sales of more than 22 percent of total sales for April year-to-date. During the month of April, Volkswagen witnessed a correlation between rising fuel prices and diesel sales, with diesel sales accounting for more than 40 percent of New Beetles sold and 38 percent of Jettas for the month. Volkswagen diesels have also been approved for use of B5 biodiesel fuel.
Volkswagen has reported TDI diesel sales of more than 22 percent of total sales for April year-to-date.
LOL....... yea basicly since prices are at a all time high.... people are looking for alternative better mileage cars and VW is basicly the only manufactor in the USA with diesels for cars.
I read that toyota will finally make diesels in the USA by 2008.
With all the lagging on diesel in the USA, I don't see much headway to get them up to B100 anytime either, what a ashame. :sick:
I don't know anyone who gets better mpg at 65 than at 55
but I am not saying it isn't possible
It makes sense to drive 80 on a long trip, where you actually GET something for that spped
but on a 20 mile commute, when half your time is spent between the freeway and the destination? That speed is just wasted gas. There is NO BENEFIT gained. None. Zip.
not the case on a multi-hour, high mileage drive, however
I'm not against driving fast. I'm against people who waste gas and complain about gas prices, and don't realize they are hypocrites.
OLYMPIA - Grays Harbor County will be home to an enormous biodiesel production plant under an agreement announced Tuesday.
The plant, to be built on land owned by the Port of Grays Harbor between Aberdeen and Hoquiam in Western Washington, will produce 100 million gallons of biodiesel a year. Construction began recently on an 85-million-gallon per year plant in Velva, N.D.
Folks, we already have a Hybrids and HOV Lanes discussion. I'll be moving the HOV posts here to that discussion and you may continue the HOV conversation there.
great googly-moogly, kdhspyder, one of us is way wrong huh? and you refuse to admit any possibility that it's you who is wrong? i say: could be me wrong, could be you wrong! naturally i pick you for being wrong at this point, but maybe ongoing debate will convince me i'm wrong. i think you might want to look towards the DRAG COEFFICIENT as a reason why the prius uses fewer gallons per mile than XA or XB. please stop trying to compare apples to oranges. unfortunately for real world we are stuck doing that with prius since there is no non-hybrid prius available. your idea that the batteries/electronics can contribute to better mpg on an extended highway cruise seems totally wrong and impossible to me, unless there's a perpetual-motion-machine somewhere under the prius' hood! i believe it is patently obvious that if you were to remove all the prius batteries and electric motors, and program the ECM to deal with that, then it would get better highway mpg than if you retained all the batteries etc. the only way the electric-prius could do better on the highway mpg was if you gratuitously hit the brakes every mile or so - in that case the regenerative braking could be a "win". so i say: prius and civic-hybrid are a big waste on highway cruises, except for the great "smugs per mile" the driver can enjoy hey, that's worth something too. personally i get some smugs-per-mile by driving my ANTI-PRIUS (holden monaro) lately. one of my prius pals drools over it every time we go to lunch. he and his kids did an experiment as they drove through "metrowest" towns around boston, counting priuses depending on which town he was in. in the more liberal/snooty/rich towns he and his kids counted 10 or more priuses. in the more working-class towns they counted zero or 1 prius. hmmmmmmm....
your idea that the batteries/electronics can contribute to better mpg on an extended highway cruise seems totally wrong and impossible to me, unless there's a perpetual-motion-machine somewhere under the prius' hood!
..highlighted word noted...
I appreciate that you don't understand how the HSD system works, I do, and I actually use it daily. Thus your opinion is noted. It's wrong, but it is noted.
i believe it is patently obvious that if you were to remove all the prius batteries and electric motors, and program the ECM to deal with that, then it would get better highway mpg than if you retained all the batteries etc. the only way the electric-prius could do better on the highway mpg was if you gratuitously hit the brakes every mile or so - in that case the regenerative braking could be a "win".
The key word in the foregoing is '..believe ..' Again your'belief' is one of the most common misconceptions of the uninformed. You obviously haven't been shown how to use it properly. The highlighted statement shows that you have not studied the system nor how it works. This really is the crux of the matter. It is too complex for many to comprehend ( I see it every day ) so it must be smoke and mirrors.
so i say: prius and civic-hybrid are a big waste on highway cruises, except for the great "smugs per mile" the driver can enjoy hey, that's worth something too. personally i get some smugs-per-mile by driving my ANTI-PRIUS (holden monaro) lately. one of my prius pals drools over it every time we go to lunch.
Your characterizations of what you think hybrid owners think explains a lot of your rationale..."smugs per mile".
What if it's just to save fuel... nothing more. What a radical thought. Driving a vehicle such as a Jetta TDI or Prius or HCH that uses 2.0 gpc or less is good for this nation. When B100 is readily available then I'm in a Toyota diesel in a heartbeat, even if I had to drive 25 miles out of my way to get it .. seriously.
When B100 is readily available then I'm in a Toyota diesel in a heartbeat
I am glad to hear you say that. It shows that you are not one that thinks "hybrid" is the only way to save our planet. I am a simple is good kind of guy. A simple diesel engine running on B100 appeals to me as well. It may not work for everyone, especially in the cold months. It is a way to wean ourselves off of fossil fuel.
i've read M-Benz has an engineering report that 'proves' about same thing - hybrids can only hurt mpg on high-speed highway cruising - a pure-diesel will always do better on the highway than a gasoline-hybrid or even a diesel-hybrid. ("all else being equal"). hence my "thought experiment" about what mpg a prius would get if you removed all the batteries & electric motors. your understanding/ownership/experience with the HSD system still doesn't make it into a perpetual-motion machine, which would be required if it were able to improve mpg in steady-state 80 mph cruising , compared to the same car minus all the batteries & electric motors. (i believe!) all your comments are about your "beliefs" too, it's not like you have a monopoly on the facts or i have a monopoly on the laws of physics/thermodynamics. ("there's no free lunch"!). if we did more city/suburbs driving we'd look at hybrids too, if we could find one in the right form-factor that would actually save us money. currently my wife is driving our passat TDI since she is driving more miles per week than me... (95% highways!) cheers....
I keep hearing tidbits of Toyota bring a diesel to the US for the 2008 model year. Are these murmurs of wishful thinking or has Toyota indicated that this is going to happen? I would hope that Toyota would be an advocate of fuel conservation by giving the market a choice of hybrid and diesel powered passenger cars. Now if the rest of the auto industry will bull their collective heads out of their, I mean sand, perhaps we will see many diesels in 08.
i've read M-Benz has an engineering report that 'proves' about same thing - hybrids can only hurt mpg on high-speed highway cruising - a pure-diesel will always do better on the highway than a gasoline-hybrid or even a diesel-hybrid. ("all else being equal"). hence my "thought experiment" about what mpg a prius would get if you removed all the batteries & electric motors.
You are entitled to speculate. Not understanding how the HSD system works does leave a void in your rationale though. That's your choice.
your understanding/ownership/experience with the HSD system still doesn't make it into a perpetual-motion machine, which would be required if it were able to improve mpg in steady-state 80 mph cruising , compared to the same car minus all the batteries & electric motors. (i believe!)
There never has been any 'perpetual motion' claims about the HSD. From your statement it's clear that you don't know how the system works so until you actually take the time to do some homework I will accept your views as your personal speculations...which is OK. It's clear however to those who have actually taken the time to study it and understand the technology that the electric system allows a much smaller engine than normal to power a larger vehicle with a gain in fuel economy.
all your comments are about your "beliefs" too, it's not like you have a monopoly on the facts or i have a monopoly on the laws of physics/thermodynamics. ("there's no free lunch"!).
No actually mine are facts as I noted in a prior post. 2.20 gpc/50 mpg every day at 85% highway/15% city disproves your 'speculations'. Those are the facts. The 'speculations' are yours.
if we did more city/suburbs driving we'd look at hybrids too, if we could find one in the right form-factor that would actually save us money. currently my wife is driving our passat TDI since she is driving more miles per week than me... (95% highways!) cheers
I am pleased that your Passat meets your needs. BTW what is her fuel usage?
For huge companies such as Toyota, Ford or GM they are not going to bring vehicles to market that can't be sold everywhere... with wide acceptance too.
Until ULSD is available in all states the 'major' players will wait in the wings. When it is available then the re-education process will begin to overcome the 60's fiasco.
Now.. what if the hybrid technology which adds about 30-35% to gasser efficiency was also able to add 30-35% to the 30-40% diesel to gasser efficiency. Now there's something to look forward to using.
If we can use this in conjuction with biodiesel then we don't have to cover the entire Sonoran Desert, maybe only half of it.
thanks for the reply, kdhspyder. as for your empirical observations disproving my "speculations" about how the laws of thermo apply to this "thought experiment", i'm not buying that but i will investigate thanks to your kind prodding here. hey, do you drive a fiat spyder too, or mr2, or eclipse? i'm going to ask one of my fellow elec-eng alums who owns a prius to explain how HSD can provide better fuel economy at 80 mph steady-state than an 'equivalent' non-hybrid at that speed in same chassis, perhaps even with the same gasser engine in both cars. re the passat TDI, fuel usage is about 15 gallons per week - never below 35 mpg - usually about 37 mpg. when i drove it cross-country at speeds closer to 90 or 100, mpg dropped substantially - to low 30s. i wonder how the prius does at 90+ mph and how the HSD could actually improve economy at that speed. i will try to find out a theory that could explain that. if your logic/facts/understanding is correct, then it would it not be a slamdunk that HSD-hybrids would hold all the long-distance-fuel-economy records. but they don't, do they? google search shows that this dude craig vetter has built a 470 mpg vehicle. surely the 470 number is questionable but your premise seems to be that shoehorning HSD into such a vehicle would improve its fuel economy, right? (if you could actually engineer it into such a small space?)
what if the hybrid technology which adds about 30-35% to gasser efficiency was also able to add 30-35% to the 30-40% diesel to gasser efficiency
Changing the ICE from gas to diesel or B100 does not change the complexity factor you add with a hybrid. I have not studied any of the hybrid technologies as much as many of the folks here at Edmund's. I do know that the simplest hybrid system as used in the GM PU trucks is still more complex, with more stuff to go bad, than a non-hybrid vehicle. Chrysler scrapped the diesel hybrid that approached 80 MPG due to cost of manufacturing. They did not believe the public would pay an additional $7500 for the added mileage. If Toyota had used the latest technology available in the Prius and subsequent hybrids that Chrysler was using, they too would have faced a larger and less attractive price point. Will hybrids be a factor in 10 years? I doubt it. Owners will get tired of paying huge sums to keep them on the road, after the warranty expires. It is already happening.
For huge companies such as Toyota, Ford or GM they are not going to bring vehicles to market that can't be sold everywhere... with wide acceptance too.
I hate using quotes from movies, but “If you build it, they will come”. Have you ever seen a VW commercial selling the TDI? I never have, and yet VW can sell every TDI equipped car Germany will send to the US with little or no room for price negotiation. I believe the secret is out and not a lot of reeducation is going to be necessary. While VW TDI’s are flying off the shelf, the rest of the auto industry is still studying and analyzing the diesel market. What’s to study?
I agree that now is not the time to start selling diesels in the US. By the Fall of 2006 ULSD will available nation wide. I would hope that by Spring of 2007 some companies might introduce diesels into the market and if not then, by the Fall of 2007 (2008 model year)
Comments
Use 42 gals of oil to make 44 gals of ethanol from corn with an energy loss of 25% is = to 33 gals of oil gives me a net loss of 9 gallons of oil. :sick:
Does anybody else know about this? :surprise:
Please let me know if this is not correct
So as a direct result, IF ethanol were to sell for MORE per gal, (you know SOSDD) then in effect the greater consumption (or less efficiency) has even MORE potential for cash flow!!??
So for example a bushel of corn (2.37 per bushel yields 2.5 gal of ethanol (read this in passing so PLEASE do not take this as gospel) cost = .948 cents per gal.
vs 2.00 per gal unleaded regular
WOW !!!!!!!!
Yea to bad they didn't also include Biodeisel, not the B20 but B100. At least with Biodiesel you get more mileage than gas like an other diesel. And ethanol get 10% less mileage than gas but if cheap enough....why not.
... Average subsidy = $0.4464 / per bushel. The USDA tells us the conversion rate of corn to ethanol is 2.5 gallon per bushel."...
So you can quote this!? I do not necessarily agree or disagree with some of the conclusions.
http://zfacts.com/p/60.html
So the cost of raw materials to yield 19.3 gals of gas is at 70 per barrel or 42 gals of oil. To yield 19.3 gals of ethanol at 2.5 gal per bushel x 2.37 per bushel = 7.73 bushels= 18.30 Even when the loss of efficiency is factored in the raw material costs will be cheaper 3.83x
The energy diagram above shows that, to save 1 GG of energy, four times that much ethanol energy must be produced. That ethanol must all be purchased and used in cars and trucks. Consequently, the extra cost of replacing a gallon of gas must be paid four times over.
Be assured it is a first for me. All the stars had to line up just right. The down side is I should have advertised it for the same as the other one in the Trader at $32k. I thought $29k was pushing it. First caller from AZ bought it sight unseen. I had 4 more cash buyers lined up if he did not come through on the money transfer. Only two 2005 Passat TDI Wagons in the country for sale. I will miss the car I am sure. The $900 insurance premium will more than make up for the difference in fuel for my GMC PU truck to take its place.
I have a feeling they are just setting us up for the big Hydrogen fuel cell rip-off.
http://www.dieselforum.org/newsarticle/article/474/51/
Carl Sagan never said "millions and billions" or "billions and billions". he was at least mildly annoyed that he was attributed with saying something as redundant/moronic as that. "billions and billions" became popular via the SNL/other parodies of Sagan...
When ULSD is accepted in all 50 states and diesel vehicles are not penalized these 3 will be in the US on the first boat. Ford is NOT investing in it's Ranger plant here ( and may actually close it ) because it knows in a year or two it can import Rangers from Thailand, diesel and gassers, not made by the unions.
Autos? Same situation. Look at Europe as a launch pad for diesels from every manufacturer. the problem for the domestics is that building auto's in the US is not cost effective due to the huge union burden. I expect all of the 'detroiters' auto production to be moved outside our borders ( except high-end products ). Opel, Ford Europe and DC could have large diesel production in Europe and Mexico and just import these here - thus avoiding the UAW and IBEW and Teamsters.
Here's irony. In 10 years Toyota, Honda and Hyundai as US manufacturers file dumping suits against GM, Ford and DC as importers for auto's dumped and unfairly priced in the US market. What a hoot that would be.
A common misconception.
At similar driving characteristics as yours, 85% Hwy, on my 40,000 annual miles i'm getting exactly 2.0 GPC ( Gal/100 mi ) since the weather moderated. This is better than 99% of the rest of the vehicles on the road.
A common misconception.
At similar driving characteristics as yours, 85% Hwy, on my 40,000 annual miles i'm getting exactly 2.0 GPC ( Gal/100 mi ) since the weather moderated. This is better than 99% of the rest of the vehicles on the road. "
I do not think this is a misconception at all. If anything the GASSERS as in gasser hybrid do not deal with added weight as well as a diesel. ( in terms of mpg)
On my last trip with 4 folks I got 49 mpg with #2 diesel. I was used to getting 50 mpg and up under the same cruising speed/range, but knew that an extra 250#'s and 25#'s or so of extra luggage would make some difference as I am used to cruising with only 3 folks in the car with luggage. So it would be and interesting question what would be the difference in mpg with an added 275#s. I would SWAG it would be greater than 1 mpg for the gasser/hybrid.
i stand by my point that hybrids are a big waste of energy, time, money for highway driving. a pal of mine has a civic hybrid and a long freeway commute. he gets 38 mpg. we get 38 mpg with our passat TDI - and Passat is a bigger/safer/better-handling car than civic hybrid. advantage: VW TDI! imho say new jetta tdi is better than prius or civic hybrid for highway cruising... recent car&driver article seems to agree with that.
i do think hybrids are great for those who do plenty of city or stop-and-go driving. credit where due !
in other news, wouldn't it be great for the environment if hybrids were *never* allowed in the carpool lanes! they should be restricted to the busy/stop-and-go lanes - it's better for the environment!
Doing the SAME commute we get 50-52 mpg with the TDI.
How would your mileage be at the realistic highway speeds most people in this country drive? I am talking about 75 MPH plus. I just spent a week roaming through TX. Almost all of their state highways were 2 lane and posted 75 MPH. The reduced speed for small towns was 65 MPH or 55 MPH. New Mexico and AZ had similar postings though slower through towns. CA is posted 65-70-75 MPH on the freeways. Average speed on most freeways is 75 MPH.
Driving a Jetta or Beetle TDI I would say you can get 60+ MPG driving at low speeds like 55-60 MPH. It is not difficult to get 50 MPG at 75 MPH in a Jetta TDI.
PS
Carl Sagan was a goof ball and not only did he say billions & billions, he wrote a book by that title.
Billions & Billions
i do think hybrids are great for those who do plenty of city or stop-and-go driving. credit where due !
Again yours is a common misconception about the Hwy performance of the Prius in particular. On the HCH you are correct. The Jetta TDI and the Prius are nearly exactly the same size and perform similarly. These are the two that offer the closest comparison to each other.
As recorded on GreenHybrid: my last 9 tankfuls since the weather moderated; 85% Hwy @ ~63 mph on avg
MPG - Mi - Gal ....GPC ( Gal consumed/100 mi )
50.8 - 503 - 9.9 ... 1.99 GPC
48.8 - 498 - 10.2 ... 2.05 GPC
51.9 - 514 - 9.9 ... 1.93 GPC
48.4 - 532 - 11.0 ... 2.07 GPC
50.9 - 519 - 10.2 ... 1.96 GPC
50.3 - 493 - 9.8 ... 1.99 GPC
51.2 - 517 - 10.1 ... 1.96 GPC
44.2 - 469 - 10.6 ... 2.26 GPC
55.7 - 512 - 9.2 ... 1.80 GPC
as for Sagan & billions-and-billions, have you read the first page of the book - it agrees with what he told me personally in 1983 and what i posted above. i used to think he was a goofball too until he spoke to our small class off-the-cuff about planetary magnetospheres.
Personally, going 8 mi over the speed limit is sufficient where 64 is safe and 66 is a ticket on a rural 5 lane road with troopers ( 2 ), sheriff's deputies ( 3 ) and unmarked cruisers ( 2 ) along a 60 mile route every day/night.
in any case, i'd rather see the batteries & hybrid electronics on vehicles used for city driving, where there would be a more return-on-investment. hence the wonderfully contrarian idea of banning hybrids from carpool lanes - let them shine in stop & go traffic instead!
I believe I can show evidence that hybrids in the HOV lanes has caused more of a negative view of the hybrids than any other aspect. I would rather see an all electric vehicle or a diesel vehicle than any complex combination the automakers may come up with. The one thing I agreed with from the last administration was the term KISS.
if HOV lanes are underutilized, we should find a way to utilize them. That is simple. HOV lanes are not the private property of the people who use them. They belong to ALL of us, and they should be used for their intended purpose, which is to decrease pollution and gas consumption. Letting hybrids use those lanes does do both of those things. If there are better ways to use those lanes, we should also consider that.
If you don't let hybrid drivers use the HOV lanes, you aren't going to sell as many, so they aren't going to "shine in stop and go traffic, instead"
You are so wrong on this that it seems that you don't understand the HSD system at all.
Basic question: The 1.5L engine in the Prius drives a vehicle which is at least 25% heavier than the other vehicles it powers such as the Yaris, the xA and the xB. Yet in the Prius the actual highway fuel consumption is 2.0 GPC or less while in the other three it's 2.63 GPC. How does this same engine drive a much heavier vehicle and still get 25% better fuel economy on the highway? It's the effect of the batteries.... even at highway speeds.
Yes in the City the batteries provide even greater fuel economy probably in the range of 50%.
To your final statement why then is saving 25-30% of the fuel we use in highway driving not worthwhile?
Complex or not in design the HCH and the Prius are just autos that get good fuel economy and need nothing more than normal maintenance on the ICE.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/05/09/006192.html
Volkswagen has reported TDI diesel sales of more than 22 percent of total sales for April year-to-date. During the month of April, Volkswagen witnessed a correlation between rising fuel prices and diesel sales, with diesel sales accounting for more than 40 percent of New Beetles sold and 38 percent of Jettas for the month. Volkswagen diesels have also been approved for use of B5 biodiesel fuel.
LOL....... yea basicly since prices are at a all time high.... people are looking for alternative better mileage cars and VW is basicly the only manufactor in the USA with diesels for cars.
I read that toyota will finally make diesels in the USA by 2008.
With all the lagging on diesel in the USA, I don't see much headway to get them up to B100 anytime either, what a ashame. :sick:
but I am not saying it isn't possible
It makes sense to drive 80 on a long trip, where you actually GET something for that spped
but on a 20 mile commute, when half your time is spent between the freeway and the destination? That speed is just wasted gas. There is NO BENEFIT gained. None. Zip.
not the case on a multi-hour, high mileage drive, however
I'm not against driving fast. I'm against people who waste gas and complain about gas prices, and don't realize they are hypocrites.
http://www.komo4.com/stories/43341.htm
OLYMPIA - Grays Harbor County will be home to an enormous biodiesel production plant under an agreement announced Tuesday.
The plant, to be built on land owned by the Port of Grays Harbor between Aberdeen and Hoquiam in Western Washington, will produce 100 million gallons of biodiesel a year. Construction began recently on an 85-million-gallon per year plant in Velva, N.D.
naturally i pick you for being wrong at this point, but maybe ongoing debate will convince me i'm wrong.
i think you might want to look towards the DRAG COEFFICIENT as a reason why the prius uses fewer gallons per mile than XA or XB. please stop trying to compare apples to oranges. unfortunately for real world we are stuck doing that with prius since there is no non-hybrid prius available.
your idea that the batteries/electronics can contribute to better mpg on an extended highway cruise seems totally wrong and impossible to me, unless there's a perpetual-motion-machine somewhere under the prius' hood!
i believe it is patently obvious that if you were to remove all the prius batteries and electric motors, and program the ECM to deal with that, then it would get better highway mpg than if you retained all the batteries etc. the only way the electric-prius could do better on the highway mpg was if you gratuitously hit the brakes every mile or so - in that case the regenerative braking could be a "win".
so i say:
prius and civic-hybrid are a big waste on highway cruises, except for the great "smugs per mile" the driver can enjoy hey, that's worth something too. personally i get some smugs-per-mile by driving my ANTI-PRIUS (holden monaro) lately. one of my prius pals drools over it every time we go to lunch.
he and his kids did an experiment as they drove through "metrowest" towns around boston, counting priuses depending on which town he was in. in the more liberal/snooty/rich towns he and his kids counted 10 or more priuses. in the more working-class towns they counted zero or 1 prius. hmmmmmmm....
..highlighted word noted...
I appreciate that you don't understand how the HSD system works, I do, and I actually use it daily. Thus your opinion is noted. It's wrong, but it is noted.
i believe it is patently obvious that if you were to remove all the prius batteries and electric motors, and program the ECM to deal with that, then it would get better highway mpg than if you retained all the batteries etc. the only way the electric-prius could do better on the highway mpg was if you gratuitously hit the brakes every mile or so - in that case the regenerative braking could be a "win".
The key word in the foregoing is '..believe ..'
Again your'belief' is one of the most common misconceptions of the uninformed. You obviously haven't been shown how to use it properly. The highlighted statement shows that you have not studied the system nor how it works. This really is the crux of the matter. It is too complex for many to comprehend ( I see it every day ) so it must be smoke and mirrors.
so i say:
prius and civic-hybrid are a big waste on highway cruises, except for the great "smugs per mile" the driver can enjoy hey, that's worth something too. personally i get some smugs-per-mile by driving my ANTI-PRIUS (holden monaro) lately. one of my prius pals drools over it every time we go to lunch.
Your characterizations of what you think hybrid owners think explains a lot of your rationale..."smugs per mile".
What if it's just to save fuel... nothing more. What a radical thought. Driving a vehicle such as a Jetta TDI or Prius or HCH that uses 2.0 gpc or less is good for this nation. When B100 is readily available then I'm in a Toyota diesel in a heartbeat, even if I had to drive 25 miles out of my way to get it .. seriously.
I am glad to hear you say that. It shows that you are not one that thinks "hybrid" is the only way to save our planet. I am a simple is good kind of guy. A simple diesel engine running on B100 appeals to me as well. It may not work for everyone, especially in the cold months. It is a way to wean ourselves off of fossil fuel.
your understanding/ownership/experience with the HSD system still doesn't make it into a perpetual-motion machine, which would be required if it were able to improve mpg in steady-state 80 mph cruising , compared to the same car minus all the batteries & electric motors. (i believe!)
all your comments are about your "beliefs" too, it's not like you have a monopoly on the facts or i have a monopoly on the laws of physics/thermodynamics. ("there's no free lunch"!).
if we did more city/suburbs driving we'd look at hybrids too, if we could find one in the right form-factor that would actually save us money.
currently my wife is driving our passat TDI since she is driving more miles per week than me... (95% highways!)
cheers....
Now if the rest of the auto industry will bull their collective heads out of their, I mean sand, perhaps we will see many diesels in 08.
You are entitled to speculate. Not understanding how the HSD system works does leave a void in your rationale though. That's your choice.
your understanding/ownership/experience with the HSD system still doesn't make it into a perpetual-motion machine, which would be required if it were able to improve mpg in steady-state 80 mph cruising , compared to the same car minus all the batteries & electric motors. (i believe!)
There never has been any 'perpetual motion' claims about the HSD. From your statement it's clear that you don't know how the system works so until you actually take the time to do some homework I will accept your views as your personal speculations...which is OK. It's clear however to those who have actually taken the time to study it and understand the technology that the electric system allows a much smaller engine than normal to power a larger vehicle with a gain in fuel economy.
all your comments are about your "beliefs" too, it's not like you have a monopoly on the facts or i have a monopoly on the laws of physics/thermodynamics. ("there's no free lunch"!).
No actually mine are facts as I noted in a prior post. 2.20 gpc/50 mpg every day at 85% highway/15% city disproves your 'speculations'. Those are the facts. The 'speculations' are yours.
if we did more city/suburbs driving we'd look at hybrids too, if we could find one in the right form-factor that would actually save us money.
currently my wife is driving our passat TDI since she is driving more miles per week than me... (95% highways!)
cheers
I am pleased that your Passat meets your needs. BTW what is her fuel usage?
Until ULSD is available in all states the 'major' players will wait in the wings. When it is available then the re-education process will begin to overcome the 60's fiasco.
Now.. what if the hybrid technology which adds about 30-35% to gasser efficiency was also able to add 30-35% to the 30-40% diesel to gasser efficiency. Now there's something to look forward to using.
If we can use this in conjuction with biodiesel then we don't have to cover the entire Sonoran Desert, maybe only half of it.
hey, do you drive a fiat spyder too, or mr2, or eclipse?
i'm going to ask one of my fellow elec-eng alums who owns a prius to explain how HSD can provide better fuel economy at 80 mph steady-state than an 'equivalent' non-hybrid at that speed in same chassis, perhaps even with the same gasser engine in both cars.
re the passat TDI, fuel usage is about 15 gallons per week - never below 35 mpg - usually about 37 mpg. when i drove it cross-country at speeds closer to 90 or 100, mpg dropped substantially - to low 30s. i wonder how the prius does at 90+ mph and how the HSD could actually improve economy at that speed. i will try to find out a theory that could explain that.
if your logic/facts/understanding is correct, then it would it not be a slamdunk that HSD-hybrids would hold all the long-distance-fuel-economy records. but they don't, do they?
google search shows that this dude craig vetter has built a 470 mpg vehicle. surely the 470 number is questionable but your premise seems to be that shoehorning HSD into such a vehicle would improve its fuel economy, right? (if you could actually engineer it into such a small space?)
Changing the ICE from gas to diesel or B100 does not change the complexity factor you add with a hybrid. I have not studied any of the hybrid technologies as much as many of the folks here at Edmund's. I do know that the simplest hybrid system as used in the GM PU trucks is still more complex, with more stuff to go bad, than a non-hybrid vehicle. Chrysler scrapped the diesel hybrid that approached 80 MPG due to cost of manufacturing. They did not believe the public would pay an additional $7500 for the added mileage. If Toyota had used the latest technology available in the Prius and subsequent hybrids that Chrysler was using, they too would have faced a larger and less attractive price point. Will hybrids be a factor in 10 years? I doubt it. Owners will get tired of paying huge sums to keep them on the road, after the warranty expires. It is already happening.
I hate using quotes from movies, but “If you build it, they will come”. Have you ever seen a VW commercial selling the TDI? I never have, and yet VW can sell every TDI equipped car Germany will send to the US with little or no room for price negotiation. I believe the secret is out and not a lot of reeducation is going to be necessary.
While VW TDI’s are flying off the shelf, the rest of the auto industry is still studying and analyzing the diesel market. What’s to study?
I agree that now is not the time to start selling diesels in the US. By the Fall of 2006 ULSD will available nation wide. I would hope that by Spring of 2007 some companies might introduce diesels into the market and if not then, by the Fall of 2007 (2008 model year)
A diesel hybrid would be wonderful.
SPECIAL REPORT: Clean Diesel - ULSD Fuel
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Interesting Article in Mass Transit magazine:
http://www.masstransitmag.com/public...pubId=1&id=340
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Jimmy