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Costs will come down with economies of scale, and as battery technology improves.
-juice
9 weeks for delivery of Zelda.
That is an issue of serious debatability.
In the beginning, that MIGHT have been true. Because of the hybrid components and batteries manufactured at such a small scale, the parts were probably more expensive.
But that was only in the very earliest days of the first Japanese Priuses.
After that, Toyota started making Hybrid Minivans for Japan and other hybrid vehicles. As they sold more and more, the mfg costs came down, the batteries got less costly for Toyota, and the Economy of Scale took over.
Toyota insists that TODAY, they do make a small profit on the Prius. With their 40 billion dollars cash in th bank, I would not doubt them.
The other car makers who were (and are) getting trounced by Toyota would not be getting into the game themselves if it was a money losing venture. Car companies have stockholders and boards to answer to, and they cannot say "let's lose a few hundred million dollars to compete with Toyota on Hybrids, whadaya say?"
Toyota would not be pledging to make hybridization an option in 100% of their vehicles if they were not going to make money on them, and Ford would not pledge 250,000 hybrids by 2010 either. Puh-Leeze......
On another note, I saw a TV ad with Bill Ford, CEO of Ford. His comment was that people wanted hybrid technology because they liked it. A rather ridiculous reason in my view.
I would also agree that the reasoning is rather illogical and probably do not have the numbers behind it. But at the same time, if there is a B/E to profitable market that will support this "like" or preference then FORD if anyone sure could use some "home runs" !?
Honda has a good reputation in the US. I would love to try a Honda Pilot diesel. That would be a nice car. Or the Odyssey with a diesel, would be perfect. No matter how much media hype surrounds the hybrids, diesel will always have the perception of being a long term vehicle with no big surprises after the warranty is gone.
I have a brother in law that would not consider a hybrid if it was the only option. He thinks it will be 20 years before they are ready for mainstream service. He restores old Mustangs & Chargers.
First off, no one said ANYTHING ANYWHERE about CUTTING QUALITY of anything. You can "reduce costs" of something without reducing the quality, I.E. get parts from a lower cost supplier, or re-design something to be simpler and to thus use fewer parts and to thus cost less. You can bet the last dollar under your mattress that when Toyota hybrid costs come down, the quality will not be worsened. Mark my words on that.
Secondly, the "already questionable longevity of the batteries" is NOT AT ALL TRUE except in the minds of a few stubborn folks who refuse to accept current technology and/or reality of the battery situation.
The HCH which had 78,000 miles and had lost only 4% of original charging capacity is one indicator of the success these batteries have had. ZERO and I mean ZERO Toyota hybrid batteries have been replaced because of the affects of "battery deterioration" or "old age" to date.
But beyond that almost every model Honda has endeavored to put out has been a hit in its class.
Costs will come down with economies of scale, and as battery technology improves.
-juice
The economy of scale has increased. The technology has improved.
Has the Honda Civic Hybrid cost decreased? Has the Toyota Prius cost decreased? NO!
Economy of scale = reduced cost? Not so fast. As hybrid production increases the competition for limited resources may actually cause costs to increase. for example - To make Li-ion EVs commercially viable costs must drop by a factor of three. Are you aware of supply and demand? Take a look at oil costs. Economy of scale has increased, technology of production has increased, yet the finite amount of resources and competition to obtain oil has increased costs greatly.
question for juice - explain to me why Honda, early to the Hybrid game, manufactures more Elements than Civic Hybrids? Honda has the most flexible manufacturing plants of any automaker. Why not ramp up production of hybrids?
Hey, I don't have all the answers. I do know that there are far too many automotive industry professionals that do have the answers that say "hybrids are not cost effective" for the manufacturer or the consumer.
Even with the government "welfare for hypebrids" tax credit you still do not recoup 100% in 5 years! Wow! And you used $3 gallon and still could not get the numbers to crunch up 100%
They'll just begin to make profits on those sales, in response to your apparent thinking that they will lose money forever. That's one for the bean counters, but I doubt they will. I'm not sure I'd agree Toyota's losing money now, though supposedly Honda is.
It's a learning curve, and they're just getting over the hump now.
Toyota just bought a chunk of FHI from GM, most likely for the Li-ion technology they already have. Now that they'll have control over the supply in-house, your theory about competition for limited resources won't apply.
Others will partner up to catch up to them.
Why more Elements? Ultra-low price (I wonder if they lose money on sales of those?), a red-hot compact SUV segment, innovative design ideas, and stand-out styling. They don't compete directly so I'm not sure the question has any relevance.
But think about it - some Elements are selling for $16k. How much profit could they possibly make?
-juice
People right here on Edmund's have reported batteries being replaced in the Prius Classic. The Prius II is barely two years on the road. I would hardly consider that old age. There have also been complaints about both the Insight and HCH with batteries that no longer take a full charge. All is not as rosy as you are seeing it through your eyes.
I looked at both the 2003 and 2004 Prius. It is startling how silent folks are about the 2003 Model. As most folks know the Prius was redesigned for model year 2004.
It is also interesting when you point out problem areas with the older Prius, they will jump on you and declare the Prius II is totally redesigned. That would mean to me the earlier version was so trouble prone that Toyota had to do a complete makeover on the Prius II. That leaves only two years of longevity to look at by those that are skeptical about the Prius. Now Honda has done a complete makeover with the new HCH so that it will run on battery only. That is progress but it also opens up new avenues of component failure. Then larsb insists that Toyota will cheapen the hybrids by 50% without lowering quality
Allow me to clarify the intent of my question. If hybrids are profitable and if there is demand for large numbers of hybrids, then why does Honda not make more of them? The Element is very much a niche market vehicle. There is no media buzz for the Element as there is for hybrids.
So why does Honda manufacture so very few Civic Hybrids for North America and worldwide? Surely the Civic Hybrid is not a niche market vehicle and there must be more demand for it than the Element.
My question is this - Why not make more Civic Hybrids (high demand, very desirable car) than the Element ( low demand, failed to meet Honda's sales expectations)?
Honda can change their production mix quicker than anyone. There are months long waiting lists for hybrids, so why not take advantage of the demand?
Does Honda not believe in hybrids as much as they do the Element? Does Honda not have adequate resources available to produce additional hybrids? If so, why not? They have had years now to figure this out.
Does Honda lose money on each hybrid? Are they just using them as a marketing tool?
Something is terribly wrong in the land of Hypebrids. I hope no one drops a house on Toyota. Sure, Toyota has far too much money and too much success to ever encounter trouble......sounds a bit too similar to GM in the 50's and 60's and where are they now?
Better than getting electrocuted in a hybrid! :P
Don't Diss Diesels
Break even point no longer a myth!
On the other hand, when the vehicle capably managed an off-road, pretty rigorous, dirt trail, I got just 13.1 mpg.
2006 Escape Hybrid
MPG ranged from 40 MPG to 13.1 MPG. Just depends on how you are using it.
One problem with making that claim, that is batteries tend to lose charging capacity Logarithmically. In other words charging capacity drops faster as time goes by and when they finally go out they go real fast. So this is not an indicator either way (especially since it is an isolated example).
ZERO and I mean ZERO Toyota hybrid batteries have been replaced because of the affects of "battery deterioration" or "old age" to date.
There is actually a post from (I believe) a Prius owner on one of these forums who reported having to have his/her batteries replaces.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As a "bean counter" I will say this, in many instances if a product makes a profit or not is determined by how us bean counters treat expenses. A particular car might or might not make money depending on how the accounting departments handle the financial data. Its called creative accounting.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Could be several reasons. First one that comes to mind is that a hybrid has materials in it that do not appear in a non-hybrid. If these materials are in short supply then your hybrids will be in short supply.
Another reason is that it could be strictly a marketing gimmick. Keep it in short supply and drum up interest and demand (Hey there is a waiting list it must be good).
Also to keep the car profitable you keep the supply low so the price stays up.
On the whole I thinks its my first example, just cannot produce them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
http://www.dieselforum.org/new...e-tax/
July 29, 2005
WASHINGTON, DC - American drivers who purchase newer, cleaner-burning diesel cars, trucks and SUVs will soon be eligible for the same kind of tax incentives as purchasers of gasoline-hybrid electric vehicles under a new national energy plan expected to be signed into law soon by President George W. Bush. Along with hybrids, clean diesel vehicles offer a fuel sipping alternative that is 20 to 40 percent more efficient than gasoline alternatives, according to the Diesel Technology Forum (DTF).
"Congress and the president recognize the important role clean diesel technology will play in meeting America's future energy and environmental goals," said Allen Schaeffer, executive director of DTF. The U.S. Department of Energy reports that if diesel vehicles reached a 30 percent market share by 2020, it would reduce U.S. consumption of oil by 350,000 barrels a day.1
Beginning January 1, 2006, the new law allows consumers who purchase some new diesel-powered cars, light trucks and SUVs to be eligible for up to $3,400 in tax credits based on the weight, fuel efficiency rating and emissions level of the vehicle, as determined the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. The credit is available through December 31, 2010.
"These incentives are an important step in expanding the market for energy efficient vehicles," said Schaeffer. When Congress first enacted tax incentives for hybrid vehicles in 2001 there were just two hybrid models on the market. Thanks in part to those incentives, there will be nearly 10 hybrid models for sale in the U.S. by the end of the year. "Now that diesel vehicles will be eligible for the same advanced-vehicle credits as hybrids, we - along with a growing chorus of industry analysts - expect similar growth in the clean diesel market," added Schaeffer.
Last month J.D. Power and Associates reported that diesel and hybrid vehicles are expected to garner 11 percent of U.S. auto sales by 2012 - with the diesel market increasing from 3 percent market share in 2004 to 7.5 percent by that date. According to R.L. Polk data compiled by DTF, diesels have already seen 56 percent market growth over the past five years with the introduction of four new models in 2004 alone (Jeep Liberty CRD, Mercedes E-320 CDI, and Volkswagen Touareg and Passat). This is in addition to the continuing popularity of diesel engine options in medium- and heavy-duty pickups.
"The Impacts of Increased Diesel Penetration in the Transportation Sector," Office of Integrated Analysis and Forecasting, Energy Information Administration, U.S. Department of Energy (Aug. 1998); "Diesel Technology and the American Economy," Charles River Assoc. (Oct. 2000)
Cut and pasted from a post made originally in VW Vortex
Producing too many, too soon, could kill their main cash cow.
For what it's worth, 13.1 mpg on a "rigorous" off road trail is great mileage, I mean, are they nuts?
I've been on a couple of Jeep outings, we get 6-8 mpg, if that. A couple of guys went through most of a tank in just a couple of trails, I can't imagine we covered even 20 miles that day.
In that context, 13.1mpg is great.
-juice
Towing, too, when you tow mileage absolutely plunges.
So towing or off-roading, all bets are off.
-juice
Acutally it might be an interesting side by side comparison in a DARPA or like face off. As folks probably know, a diesel won the 2005 remote driving vehicle face offf and by a lot of time.
I think I'd pick a diesel with 3 locking diffs, though, to be honest.
-juice
All the articles I have read, Honda claims a loss on every hybrid car. They claim the Insight costs $30k plus to build with all the exotic metals etc. Toyota claims they are making a small profit on hybrids.
Consider new cars sales is almost a non-profit business these days, this keeps Honda dealers happy. Dealer relations are very important to a manufacturer, just ask GM or Ford.
-juice
But there's no way, no how they averaged 21 mpg off road the entire time.
In fact that's better than CR got on pavement! I think they got 17 or 18 mpg overall.
-juice
300C CRD
Performance=Yes. Fuel Economy=Yes Refinement=?
Would the public buy this? There is no hybrid sedan of this size offered.
link title
Chrysler this year has delivered nearly 8,300 Liberty diesels, which cannot be sold in California and four other states with higher emission standards than federal requirements, said Max Gates, a Chrysler spokesman. "We are very pleased," he said. The company originally expected to sell 5,000 diesel Libertys.
Gary, please post one single article where a Honda spokesperson claims they are losing money on every hybrid. THAT I GOTTA SEE !! :shades:
This is a week-long average, probably a small portion of the mileage was actually off-road. It would be more useful to seperate each portion of the trip.
For instance, I average 25mpg in my Forester. When I tow a little bit, the average drops to 21-22 mpg or so. But one trip I measured with the trailer attached the entire time, i.e. it was never even disconnected, and my average was 17.3 mpg. So in pure towing conditions the impact was more than double what I normally observe.
Even then, the Jeep was in its element, while the Ford was not, and mileage during these forays was essentially tied. So much for home field advantage. I'd say the Ford more than held its own.
300C - maybe they should call it the 300D?
That engine is a gem once it gets going, but there is noticeable lag off the line. It's slow, slow, then BAM it's the most potent thing you've driven all year long. Not very linear throttle response.
I'd still put up with it for the 27/37 ratings the E class gets, if I could only afford an E class!
-juice
That "fact" is totally bogus.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList very clearly shows that is not the case.
The real-world driving for the automatic Jetta diesel (sedan) is 6 MPG less than Prius. And the wagon simply doesn't get any better, no matter how many times false "facts" are repeated.
JOHN
What does a Prius/HCH get in the same plain Jane commute? I don't know! Lend me both and I can tell you after however many tankfuls you wish.
Potentially useful, but more so when there's more data in there.
-juice
EPA Inaccurate EPA is not equal to real world.
Jetta TDI Wagon real world driving is over 50 mpg in my experience. My lifetime avg. was 52 mpg. Even though it is rated 42 city/50 mpg hwy EPA. My lifetime average on Golf TDI automatic was only 42 mpg.
Better than Edmunds lifetime mpg of 40.8 on their long term Prius.
Folks, ONE DATA POINT IS INSIGNIFICANT, let's see samples of hundreds (preferably thousands) of cars before we make scientific conclusions.
I have gotten 30.4 mpg on one trip.
I have also gotten 17.3 mpg on another trip.
So the first car is nearly twice as efficient as the 2nd, right?
Wrong, they are the SAME CAR!
YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary.
-juice
PS Sorry I had to shout, but yes, I had to shout! Sheesh!
MPG is not the only benefit of the Hybrid technology...