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Comments
Personally, for me, the "hybrid battery" is not an issue because in 8+ years of the Japanese Prius being on the road, we are not hearing about failed batteries.
One Taxi driver in Canada got 160,000 miles out of a Gen 1 Prius and then Toyota bought it back from him to test the systems.
Basically, making it available at all diesel refueling stations in the USA, and auditing the fuel by making sure the fuel IS IN FACT ULSD, and making whatever testing equipment changes that need to be made, all this on a nationwide, company-by-company basis.
Everyone knows how much red tape is involved in any broad-based government mandated change like this, so this will not be "OK, Today we all have ULSD."
It's a huge undertaking. It took Europe a few years, and some countries never got it completely finished.
Not really, in part because I am like most Americans - "diesel is dirty and smelly and the cars are noisy and don't do well in cold weather etc etc."
I have learned very much about diesel technology in the last 16 months, to the point where I feel I am educated in the area.
I know that clean diesel vehicle technolody exists, and the ULSD is on the way to the USA, but until it's entrenched, it's got no chance to lure me.
UNLESS someone comes out with a 5-passenger diesel/electric hybrid that gets 70 MPG - at that point, I buy that car on Day One !!
A ton of stress on the turbos? Based upon what metric? The fact is that there is nothing that the chip can do that would make the turbos fail sooner. The only things that I can even think of that might cause an early turbo failure are 1) Screaming into your parking place at full throttle and immediately shutting the engine (and its associated cooling oil for the turbine bearings), thus causing oil coking and an early bearing failure, or 2) driving around at full throttle at altitudes of well over 12,000 MSL (causing extremely high turbine speeds). Come to think of it, even scenario #2 is highly unlikely, blown aircraft do that all day long and at even higher altitudes no less.
The flip side of your assumptions are the countless folks who've chipped their VW and Audi cars and driven literally millions of miles with no problems. My own brother has chipped both of his Audi TTs and driven them for a cumulative 120,000 miles with nary a problem. The fact is that your fear that you would have had a failure very soon after "I keept it for only a few hundred miles." is just that, fear, and I might add, fear with no science or other real world basis to back it up.
Best Regards,
Shipo
-juice
Part of it is as obvious as the nose on all our faces. Almost all of us, at one time in our childhood, rode a school bus or was near enough to one of them to notice the awful smell coming from the exhaust. And see the black smoke billowing out of it, and the black stain on the bumper hear the exhaust pipe. I personally HATED (and still do) that smell, and avoided proximity to diesel buses at all costs. We associate that with diesel fuel and diesel vehicles.
Another is that myriad of scientific studies over the past 50 years that have put diesel as a cause of respiratory ailments from asthma to emphysema to lung cancer. That's not an Urban Legend, folks - diesel DOES cause or exacerbate those afflictions.
Another is yes, the older diesel cars which were around in the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s and EVEN TODAY !! I was behind a 1980s era Rabbit Diesel the other day, and the black smoke was just pouring out of that car !! We old timers all knew of someone who had tried those cars, and hated them for their lack of quality and the smell and the general bad karma they created.
And finally there is today, when we are fighting to keep our air clean worldwide, and people still talk about "diesel particulates" and the "brown cloud" and how we need to clean up diesel technology. No one large demographic of people in the USA is 100% sold on modern diesel cars and fuels.
Even a recent review of a modern diesel, the Jeep Liberty, had the reviewer mentioning that "the smell of diesel exhaust made it into the cabin." With publicity like that, diesel has a LONG HARD road to acceptability in the USA
When GM built their diesels, they were converted gas engines. It was not until one or two years before they stopped making them that they started making them more diesel like with a drop forged steel crank and forged connecting rods. They also put a better distributor pump on the those engines too. GM really ruined the reputation of diesel in this country but most people have forgotten this. GM has wisely not built any domestic diesel engines for their cars because of this. The Duramax diesel they stick in the pick up trucks is actually an Isuzu diesel. The old 6.2 and 6.5 L diesels were from Detroit Diesel. They were actually decent engines and would have been better if GM had not messed with the combustion chamber design.
Being in an area that gets COLD in the winter, the first thing I think of when I think diesel is block heaters since I had a friend who would be SO ticked off when he forgot to "plug his car in" on a cold night
Color me neutral on the current crop of diesels. It's simply never crossed my mind to consider one. Maybe that changes at some point!
For some older diesels that is quite true. Pre-heat times were outrageously long and if it got cold enough they would not start. I had a 1981 Isuzu diesel car. Pre-heat was
3.5 seconds at any temperature and it always started even at -20 F. No block heater of any type was ever used. From 1982 - 84 Isuzu improved pre-heat time to 0.5 seconds. The only times the Isuzu would not start is when the battery died.
I now have a Jeep Liberty Limited CRD. It has not been cold enough to see what will happen but when it has been chilly enough, pre-heat has been two seconds or less. Engine runs smoothly, but it is a bit noisier until it warms up. No drivability issues. I keep the cetane at 50 or better.
If there is a diesel/electric hybrid, I might buy it if it is series type and not the type they use in the Prius. In a well designed series type, you can do away with the transmission altogether. An example of this is a diesel electric locomotive.
I doubt if the modded Prius had a similar cost.
Sort of like asking a kid today if he wants to hear some of your 45's
Yes, the chip will alter the maximum boost pressure point by delaying when the wastegate opens. Yes, that means higher pressure. The question is, "how much pressure?" Probably not much. The fact is that for engines like the 2.0T, which already has a high compression ratio, the maximum boost (unchipped) is probably no more than 7 psi, and even chipped is probably no more than 15 psi. To put that in perspective, that's probably not even half the pressure that you keep in your tires.
The other part of your post is heat. Yes, chipping does increase the heat as well, however, the heat in the induction system of a chipped engine at full song at lower altitudes will still be no where near the heat generated by an unchipped engine running as hard as it can run at high altitudes (say 10,000' and higher). The fact is that the extra heat generated from chipping is still well within the limits of the hardware.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I doubt if the modded Prius had a similar cost.
Or similar results, I doubt chipped TDIs will be chasing land speed records any time soon.
$300 plus is uses more fuel, remember. That kind of defeats the purpose of getting an efficient car in the first place.
-juicd
$300 plus is uses more fuel, remember. That kind of defeats the purpose of getting an efficient car in the first place. "
Not sure here while we are making a "left field" comparison when what we are talking about is the so called "sweet spot" So for example there are a few reasons why one would consider injectors (usually bigger) and chipping. The thing I like conceptually the best about bigger injectors is if you do not "get on it" your fuel consumption remains the same or similar!!! Of course if one wants to use it, it seamlessly comes on and of course then you have made the decision "to pay for play" or are ok with the increased fuel consumption.
On the other hand I noticed that even though the hybrid has been on the market for a while, there is a decided lack of performance aftermarket products.(and oem and dealer options)
Sorry to interject here, but I'm fairly sure a chipped, or even non-chipped, TDI could probably come very close (or equal to) that specially modified Prius. It was a land speed record for a Prius after all.
-juice
ALL the anti-hybrid posters come out of the woodwork to exploit something that may not be a problem to begin with.
I think of myself as an interested hybrid skeptic. The hybrid haters are a small number compared to the GM haters on some of the other threads. You know you have taken part in the GM hater's diatribe. How is it any different for those that don't trust the complex hybrid technologies? You make reference to the BMW 330XI having electronic problems. If you search the NHTSA board for the 2005 330XI only One complaint has been filed. Check the 2005 Prius complaints. There are 29 categories of complaints, some with dozens of occurences. From electrical problems to overheating to poor visibility.
You add that to all the hype and hoopla surrounding the hybrids and especially the Prius and it attracts detractors.
It only uses more fuel if you use the extra power. If a chipped TDI is driven conservatively it returns the same mileage as a non-chipped.
On the A4 TDI's the basic $300 chip mod bumps the hp/torque from 90/150 to 115/225 or so, which is more than adequate for an economy car.
Like I've said before, though, around me, diesel costs more for whatever reason. Not just now, it always seems that way..
-juice
I myself am waiting to replace my dated 7 year old BMW 323 with a BMW turbodiesel--I have been waiting a bit too patiently!
Regarding electrical issues in the BMW 3 you have the following:
JD Power reveals no problems
Consumers Reports reveals no problems
NHTSA Board reveals no problems
versus the opinion of TWO Professionals that you know!
I think it is a safe bet that electrical issues are non-issues.
Agree,
and who knows I may buy a hybrid instead of a diesel in the future! I am open minded and it will depend on the specs of the future hybrid model and my own personal test drive at a dealership (which is hard to do with some hybrid models)
Hybrid technology, let me summarize:
It's a CAR (or SUV or Pickup).
It's got an electric battery system.
It gets good gas mileage.
In most cases, it is driven on occasion solely by electric power.
It is CAPABLE of INCREDIBLE gas mileage (Prius 109 MPG).
You don't have to plug it in.
You take it in for service like any other MODERN car.
They are extremely reliable, by ANY published measure.
There is nothing to be "skeptical" about.
I disagree. I will not bore you with the same concerns that you have read a dozen times before. If I was buying a hybrid in the next 6 months it would be the new HCH. It would have to be close to Invoice priced for me to consider it.
Here come the diesels!!!
The widespread introduction of this cleaner fuel will help lower emissions from nearly every class of diesel engine. For new heavy-duty highway engines like those in trucks and buses, the combination of ULSD and new engine emissions standards that begin taking effect in 2007 will result in particulate and nitrogen oxide reductions of more than 90 percent from current levels. ULSD also holds great promise for spurring market growth of light-duty diesel by helping manufacturers meet new upcoming EPA emissions standards for diesel cars, trucks and SUVs.
I want one of each, car, truck & SUV.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051110/dcth085.html?.v=5
Using the standard EPA measurement, diesel still comes up short... too dirty to be considered a good choice.
Remember how Honda got beat up for selling hybrids that were only ULEV rated? The "clean" diesels don't even meet that criteria. So how can they possibly compete with the hybrids that are SULEV rated?
JOHN
Easy, good mileage, alternate fuel capability, better handling, better highway performance and mileage, More selection of vehicles. As long as hybrid production is limited by the battery supply they will not become mainstream choices. Maybe Toyota will find more batteries if they start losing market share to the superior Jetta TDI. The only edge the Prius has is emissions. If the VW TDI was allowed in CA I think the sales picture would be very different.
You tell me what the production hold up with the Prius might be. If Toyota was wanting to really put the whammy on the competition they would offer the Prius with E85 compatibility. GM has many of their lineup available for use of E85. How many does Toyota have?
And for a commuter car, driving someone to work and for errands and back home, in a mostly Urban environment, nothing with a diesel engine beats a hybrid, today, for MPG or clean for emissions.
Still waiting for the first production AT-PZEV diesel car.
A co-worker just bought a VW Beetle and they wanted $4500 more for the diesel engine version so she said "stick that diesel baby."
And the Jetta TDI will never be a more reliable or better built car than a Prius - EVER.
Talk about "niche" Gary - E85 is a "niche" fuel that really has no big-time political push by anyone and will never be a major fuel in the USA. That's why Toyota has no E85 vehicles - because likely they have NEVER had anyone ask for one in a showroom. Build good cars with features people WANT = 10.5 Billion Dollars profit in one year.
When was GM's last profitable quarter? I can't recall.
The hybrid/gasser also does not solve the environmentalist described problem with using foreign oil. TDI cars can use home grown alternative fuels with MANY SOURCES vs hybrids which can NOT. So the hybrid gassers only solves a portion of the equation and has mentioned before it creates problems of its own such as greater upstream and downstream pollution in the whole battery issue.
The other strategic issue is Toyota is the new defacto "KING/QUEEN of the hill, surpassing GM. Of course when GM was in the slot EVERYBODY took level and ambush aim at them. So now GM (if it wants to survive) has now got to go after the reigning KING/QUEEN= TOYOYA!!
This quote is absolutely false.
The reason why it appears seamless is it is engineered so one feels no apparent differences.
WOO HOO! As nice as the BMW 330 IX is, if the diesel model were available in this country; that would be my choice. While this is not a secret to current European car owners or meant in a pergorative way, one should be a bit more in tune with the possibility of spending more for both scheduled and unschedule repairs; say over Japanese or dare I say, even American cars.
The type of engine which lives in the engine compartment ABSOLUTELY has ZERO EFFECT on how a car handles.
That is COMPLETELY ACCURATE.
I don't care what kind of engineering goes into the other aspects of the car, but the type of engine "in itself" has no bearing on handling.